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death_n adam_n sin_n wage_n 4,026 5 11.2119 5 false
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A45325 Qvakers principles quaking, or, Pretended light proved darkness, and perfections found to be greatest imperfections in an answer to a written paper, subscribed with the name of Thomas Holme, and scattered through the country about Liverpool and Lancashire / modestly propounded by Ralph Hall ... Hall, Ralph. 1656 (1656) Wing H423; ESTC R39227 32,660 37

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of the anguish of his soul cursed the day of his birth c. I say after all this when Job comes to himself he cryes out against himself I abhor my self and repent in dust and ashes Job 42.6 If Job had been perfect what needed he to have repented but further we find the Apostle Paul disclaiming perfection in himself Phil. 3.12 13. Not as though I had already attained or were already perfect but I follow after c. And at vers. 14. Brethren I count not my self to have apprehended but this one thing I do forgetting those things that are behind and reach forth towards those things that are before c. And at vers. 15. Let as many as be perfect be thus minded as if the Apostle had said The highest degree of perfection that I have attained to is to be sensible of my own imperfection Secondly Hee not only disclaims perfection in himself but fully asserts that both Jew and Gentile are all under sin and there is none righteous no not one there is none that doth good no not one c. Rom. 3.9 10. See further for this Isa. 64.6 But we are all as an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags and we all do fade as a leaf and our iniquities like the wind hath taken us away And what more plain against your doctrine of perfection then these Scriptures But secondly I shall prove it by Argument 1 If we could attain to be absolutely perfect men and free from sin we should be freed from death if Adam had not sinned hee had not dyed In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely dye Gen. 2.17 And the wages of sin is death Rom 6.23 From whence I argue no work no wages no sin no death But it is appointed unto all men once to dye and after death to come to judgement And why so Because all have sinned Rom 5.12 As by one man sin entred into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned Sure then our perfection as well as our portion is in reversion So at vers. 5. If we have been planted together with him in the likeness of his death we shall bee also in the likeness of his resurrection Observe as we are in the one we shall be in the other 2 If we were perfectly free from sin we should be free from temporal punishments and afflictions which are the fruits and effects of sin otherwise God were unjust But the best of Gods people are daily liable to temporal afflictions therefore short of perfection 3 If we were perfect we could not sin at all But in many things wee offend all James 3.2 And if we say that we have no sin we deceive our selves and there is no truth in us 1 Joh. 1.8 4 If we were perfect here we should have the end of our hope here But if in this life onely Christians had hope they were of all men most miserable 1 Cor. 15 19. 5 And lastly If we could attain to absolute perfection here we should enjoy our glorious and eternal rest here but the Apostle was of another judgement For saith he Doubtless there remains a rest to the people of God Heb 4.9 Job likewise agrees with the Apostle Job 3.7 and that holy man of God John the Divine heard other news and that from Heaven too Rev. 14.13 I heard a voyce from heaven saying unto me Write from henceforth blessed are the dead that dye in the Lord even so saith the Spirit for they rest from their labours and their works follow them So then our rest is in heaven doubtless our perfection is not here But I remember you pleaded hard for perfection that time the Ministers gave you the meeting at the Greave-house from these two Scriptures viz. How shall I that am dead to sin live any longer therein and again As the tree falls so it lyeth from whence you truly inferred that as Death leaves a man Judgement is sure to finde him both which are the truths of God being rightly understood As to the first of these viz. How shall I that am dead to sin live any longer therein it is true I cannot so as to make it my trade and living nor yet so as to live in the least known sin with allowance of my self therein nor yet as the Scripture phrase is to tumble and wallow therein as the Sow that is washed doth in the mire But hence to assert that he that is dead to sin is freed from sin will not follow for God knows many are the secret sins of the best of Gods people and therefore David a man after Gods own heart crys out unto the Lord Lord cleanse me from my secret sin and not only so but hee prays earnestly that God would keep him that presumptuous sins might not prevail over him Psal. 19.13 sure I am David was sensible of his own imperfection But Secondly As the Tree falls so it lyes or As Death leaves us Judgement is sure to finde us For that man or woman that doth not here in this life by faith make good his proprietie and interest in the Lord Jesus Christ shall never have benefit by him in the Life to come for saith he He that beleeveth on me hath eternal life but he that beleeveth not is condemned already Joh. 3.16 18. I freely acknowledge living and dying in unbeleef renders a man truly miserable for as there is no praising of God in the Grave so there is no actings of faith there but As the tree falls so it lyes but it follows not hence that we are perfect here unless it be by faith in the Son of God and in that sence I shall be of your judgement for all Gods people as well as Job do know that their Redeemer liveth and that they shall see him at the last day not with other but their own eyes and indeed Christ is perfection it self I have only Three things more to admonish you of else I shall fall too short of a full answer to your Paper First one is concerning that Law that you say is written in mens hearts by which only they are to be guided Secondly Concerning that light you say is within a man to which only he is to look and Thirdly Concerning your rayling reviling and unchristian Language that you ordinarily put forth in both your speakings and writings I am resolved to clear my self in the sight of God of all malice and envie in what I shall say to these and what I do speak to speak in faithfulness And first The Law written in mens hearts it must needs be either First the Law of God or Secondly The Law of Nature or Thirdly No Law at all but a delusion of Sathan I shall be farre from judging any of you and as free in desiring you to judge your selves that you be not judged of the Lord Mistake me not I know all men and women shall