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A31340 A relation of some of the most material matters that passed in a publick dispute at Thriploe in Cambridgeshire the 15th day of the 2d month 1676 between Francis Holdcraft and Joseph Odde his assistant, both Presbyterian priests, on the one party, and Samuel Cater with some others of the Friends of truth called Quakers Cater, Samuel, d. 1711.; Holcroft, Francis, 1629?-1693.; Odde, Joseph.; Webb, John, 17th cent.; Baker, Jacob. 1676 (1676) Wing C1488; ESTC R29185 7,064 9

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work as this is but to me and the rest of my Friends he spake revilingly and told us we were a Generation of Vipers and that they would prove us so to be before they went from thence F. H. Do you own the Man Christ Jesus body flesh and bone to be at the Right Hand of his Father in the Highest Heaven yonder yonder above the Stars pointing upward with his Hands and Eyes S. C. The True Christ I own and believe in the same that the Prophet prophecied of and the Apostles Preached Salvation in his name and am ready to render a reason of the hope that is in me when it is my place so to do but Francis it is not thy business to Catechise me at this time but to prove that we deny the True Christ this thou hast promised to do and I expect thou shouldst do it or else acknowledge thy error F. H. I said as much you dare not own the True Christ if you do say you do J. O. There hold him there S. C. The True Christ I own but thy Carnal Imaginations of him I deny but this I say we are upon the defensive part thou hast said we deny Christ it is on thy part to prove it F. H. Urged the like question again but never took in hand nor went about to prove what he had promised S. C. To the people I am not ashamed nor afraid to confess my Faith and belief concerning Jesus Christ as this man would suggest into our minds and make you believe but the reason yet why I have not done it is because it 's not my business at this time we are accused by this man to deny Christ and he saith he will prove it it is his place so to do if he can and his asking me whether I own Christ implys as much as this that he does not know whether we own him or deny him so that he hath done unjustly by us and unwisely by himself in going to report that we deny the True Christ behind our backs and now we call him in question before our faces Instead of proving of it he asks us whether we own him or deny him which question would have been more seasonable and more honest to have been asked us before he had thus openly reproached us and slandered us for it appears he hath said that of us which he cannot prove and therefore must return again upon himself as the raiser or at least maintainer of these false reports and he must till he can clear himself of these lyes and slanders which he so frequently vends out of his mouth and casts upon the Innocent be numbred amongst the Lyers for the Lake who are in the Steps which the Prophet speaks of report and we will report it F. H. Still balled and call'd out whether I owned the True Christ S. C. For the sake of the people that are here I do say that the same Lord Jesus Christ which the Scriptures Testifie of I believe in and expect Salvation by and in no other that is to say the Christ of God that was born of the Virgin Mary and was Crucified by the High-Priests and envious ones and was raised by the power of God and Ascended far above all Heavens and is at the Right Hand of God and is also knocking at every ones door for an entrance into their Hearts that he might dwell in and amongst them F. H. Then cryed out to the people this is a Cheat this is to blind the people S. C. How is it a Cheat I speak as I do believe and my words are according to the Scripture F. H. You do not believe as you say S. C. How dost thou know I do not believe as I say F. H. I can prove out of the Quakers Books that you do not believe as you say S. C. Shew us that Book of ours that says we deny the True Christ But none he could shew us S. C. I say again the same Jesus in whose name the Lame Man was made whole that Peter and John bare Testimony to before them that Crucified him in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth doth this man stand before you whole this day This is the Stone that is set at naught by you Builders and is now become the head of the Corner I say in this Christ I with the rest of my Brethren believe and hope for Salvation and in no other name or thing whotsoever Then there was one called to us that we might have some discourse concerning Election and Reprobation for these Men had declared before the people that some Children were in a state of Damnation before they were born about which some people were dissatisfied that heard them Then Joseph Odde desired to take the matter in hand J. O. spake to this purpose you do not understand neither the righteousness nor the sin as it is in Gods account S. C. Wherein do we not understand J. O. Do you not acknowledge that all men fell in Adam S. C. I do acknowledge according to the Scriptures in Adam all sinned which was and is the fall from God J. O. This Adam represents all men so that in him all are included as if there were but one in all S. C. The Apostle says As was the offence so also was the free gift and as in Adam all dyed so in Christ all comes to be made alive again Rom. 5. 18. J. O. All fell in Adam and you have granted that all sinned in him and therefore Children while they are in the Womb before they are born so soon as they have life and are a Living Soul they are guilty of Original sin and are Vessels of Wrath and for destruction S. C. I 'le prove this to be false Doctrine and contrary to the mind and will of God revealed in the Scriptures of Truth for the Lord said by the Prophet Ezekiel 18. Read from the beginning onward that Proverb shall not be used in Israel saying the Fathers have eaten sower Grapes and the Childrens Teeth are set on edge but as the Soul of the Father is mine the Soul of the Son is mine also the same Soul that sins shall die Jer. 13. 30. J. O. But death Reigned from Adam to Moses will you not grant that S. C. Yes over them that had sinned and therefore thou must prove Children to be sinners before they are born which thou and all thy Brethren can never do or else thou canst not prove them damned J. O. Death Reigned from Adam to Moses over all men and I will prove a Child a Man before it is born and therefore guilty of sin before it is born S. C. Prove that if thou canst People I desire you all to be still and let us hear how Joseph Odde will prove a Child a Man before it is born by plain Scripture for no other proof we will accept of J. O. Christ says A Woman hath sorrow because her hour is come but when she is