Selected quad for the lemma: death_n
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A30942
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The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion.
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Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687.
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1654
(1654)
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Wing B794; ESTC R23641
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73,761
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196
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conceived some have set up that to the disadvantage of other prayers or perhaps been a little superstitious in honouring the former you would bend the stick the other way and by omitting for a time the use of the words though you keep the matter still teach people to regard the sense as the onely thing Wherein you are not I think opposed by the other side who hold the prayer to have been used by Christ's appointment by the Disciples and fit to be used by us How can this be denied yet do not deny but the words may lawfully be omitted and the sense kept And surely it were a very great restraint of Devotion to confine it to any Forms whatsoever my particular necessities being not particularly provided for by the forms of any other Which necessities yet my heart may much desire to open to God And the like may be said sometime of a Congregation So that as every Christian must labour to express himself in private beyond forms so every Minister must endeavour after the Ability to deliver to God the needs of his people as the exigent shall require And the exigent doth not always admit of preparation To conclude we gladly use the help our Lord and his servants that have gon beore us have afforded us We value their prayers and use them We do also after their pattern and agreeable to them frame other prayers for our use And yet after all prepared prayer the Christian Soul must be allowed her sudden ejaculations and extemporall ascensions to the Throne of Grace What would you have more c. The Answer given to this letter was civill and so was the Reply but neither is found Only Mr. Barksdale remembreth he sent Mr. Medes Diatribae with his next letter and commended some of the discourses to Mr. Helme who answerd that Mr. Mede lived in the time of the Prelates and no wonder if he did serve that time wherein surely he mistook the Genius of that excellent scholar whose learning was accompanyed with equall integrity as the Reader may finde by his Epistles and life since published Mr. Helme his conclusion then was that he would avoid controversies and preach Christ unto the people And thus far all was fair between him and Mr. Barksdale and so it continued till Mr. Helme began more and more to alienate himself from all neighbouring Ministers except some few more suitable to his own mind with whom alone he gave out he would supply the Lecture And accordingly when another came to preach he denyed him and took the pulpit himself and there deliver'd such things which occasioned Another Letter of Mr. Barksdale to Mr. Helme Maii 26. 52. Vincat Veritas Vivat Charitas SIR I much commend what you said well of brotherly union and love but cannot away with this new business of separation Fraternall Admonition also I much desire should be more practised but suspension before Admonition I cannot allow of Clearly my opinion is notwithstanding all that I have heard from you and your Brethren that Ministers are not to be condemn'd by you for administring the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in their Congregations though mixed And for the proof here of I do humbly tender unto you and yours these following Reasons which I shall be ready to enlarge and press more Logically if it be desired 1. Because of Christ's precept Do this in remembrance of me This remembrance should be frequent and not delayed from year to year on pretence of unpreparedness 2. I argue from Christ's example As he washed the feet of Judas among the rest so if you will hear the Expositors antient and recent of best account he admitted Judas to the Sacrament though he well knew his unworthiness and Ministers do not know the unworthiness of those they admit but hope the best upon their profession 3. From the Apostles words Ye shew forth the Lords death The Lords death is shewed forth to the Ear of the unworthy Hearer why may it not to the Eye also of the Receiver though in the Event he prove unworthy 4. From those words of the Apostle where he saith The word is the savour of death to some Yet the danger of that must not hinder Ministers from preaching in miâ—t Congregations and therefore the danger of the unworthiness of some Receivers must not hinder the administration of the Sacrament 5. I allege the example of the Apostles who upon profession of Faith Baptized whole multitudes and no doubt communicated with them although it appeared after that they were not all right 6. St. Paul directing his Epistles to mixt Congregations calls them all Saints because of their holy calling and profession and those that are Saints in reputation may be admitted 7. In the Church of Corinth were many disorderly persons besides the incestuous person that were admitted And 1 Cor. 11. Where he blames their comming together for the worse he forbids them not to come together nor doth he check the Minister and forbid him to offer the Sacrament but saith he Let a man examine himself and so Neither doth the unworthy eat damnation to the Minister or any other but only to himself Nor is the Cup of blessing turned by the Minister into a Cup of poyson God forbid such language of yours but the unworthy Receiver of the cup of blessing loses the blessing through his unworthiness 8. As the word becomes the savour of death to the unworthy so are their prayers abomination yet you both receive them to the Word and joyn with them in Prayer and you sing Psalms with them namely the 100. Psalms We are his flock he doth us seed c. 9. As the Word is a quickning Ordinance so the Sacrament is a quickning Ordinance For it is always accompanied with the Word Nay without the Word 't is no Sacrament If the Word without the Sacrament may quicken those that were dead much more may the Word with the Sacrament Christ is the Bread of life both to give life and to maintain life 10. You do I suppose admit Children of all Christian parents upon their desire and profession to the one Sacrament why do you not admit the parents themselves likewise to thè other 11. You have no power to receive accusations and proofs of Witnesses without which you cannot give sentence and will you condemn and suspend or excommunicate before you have tryed or upon hear-say Quis erit innocens 12. You say you make a separation in the Church not from the Church as if it were lawfull to make a separation in the Church A separation in the Church is a rent of the Church is offensive and saddens the heart of many pious discreet and charitable persons that however they like you otherwise cannot joyn with you in your by-way 13. We must not deny the worthy and keep from them the means and pledges of grace because of the unworthiness of some 14. As we offer the Covenant to all so must we offer the seal
fair Interpretation of it out of the Excellent Paraphrast Tell it to the Church i. e. to the Rulers of the Assemblies Verily I say unto you to you the designed Rulers of the Church and your Successors the Bishops H. Enough enough pray who is your Author there B. Regard not so much who as what No matter whose the words are if they cleer the Text. This Author Mr. Tr. shews you the true sense of the next verse concerning two or three It is the manner of Scripture where severall things are mentioned to resume the last first and so go back In this retrogradous order the Power of the Church which was last mentioned is spoken of v. 18. and then the two or three are again mentioned which were spoken of v. 16. I will cleer it if you please by sundry the like passages See in of Binding and Loosing pag. 12. c. W. We have enough of you already I would not goe over the door sill to Dispute with one upon whose spirit I see so much of the Pope B. No Gloster-Hall man would say so but you And you say so because you have nothing else to say I am far from Popery and I doubt you are neer it with your Independency Col. A. But Pray-thee what Author have you there on the Text B. I will obey you It is the great ornament of the English Church the Learned and pious Doctor Hammond W. c. An Arminian an Arminian To. That 's a very indirect answer when the words alleged tend not to Arminianism but to the support of Christianism B. I feared you would cast some aspersion upon this Brave Man and therefore would have concealed his name under a silent veneration But you are mistaken when you think the Doctrine of Universall Redemption Arminianism It was the Doctrine of the Church of England before Arminius was born Wee learn it out of the old Church-Catechism I believe in Jesus Christ who redeemed me all mankind And the Church hath learned it out of the plaine Scripture where Christ is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World c. To. God would have all men to be saved Therefore Christ is the Redeemer of all men Col. A. Paul in that Text to Tim speaks de generibus singulorum not de singulis generum B. S. Paul speaks de singulis generum for elsewhere it is said Christ tasted death for every man Heb. 2. 9. a convincing Text. W. There is a distinction of voluntas signi beneplaciti B. If God hath signified and revealed to us that he would have all men to be saved then it is most true that he would have All men to be saved But he hath signified c. He knows not to lye or to dissemble C. I desire to propose an Argument in this Question if you please to answer me B. Most willingly You are a courteous Gentleman C. If Christ died for all men then shall all men be saved But all men shall not be saved Therefore B. I deny the sequel of your major C. Christ cannot fail of his intention Therefore if Christ died for all men all men shall be saved B. I deny your Antecedent C. To fail of ones intention argues imperfefection But you must not lay any imperfection upon Christ B. No by no meanes Therefore I answer One may fail of his intention two waye either by ones own fault or by the fault of another to whom good is intended Christ failes of his intention not through his own fault but ours he is not wanting to us we are wanting to our selves And I beseech you all dear Christians take heed of conceiving hard thoughts of God of Christ as if he would the death of a sinner Tr. God in his eternall Purpose hath appointed to save some and to damne others B. The purpose of God is absolute or conditionall God purposeth not the damnation of any absolutely but Conditionally upon his refusall of the meanes And for election consider what the Apostle saith He hath chosen us in Christ Eph. 1. 4. See also the judicious Mr. Hooker's distinction of Gods generall inclination and his occasioned Will lib. 5. s 49. Wherefore Beloved I charge you again Take heed that you think not ill of God and of Christ as if he were not really and sincerely willing you should be saved Hear Christ mourning affectionately over Jerusalem How oft would I and thou wouldst not Hear God speaking most pathetically in the Prophet As I live saith the Lord I desire not the death of a sinner Will you not take his word Take his Oath As I live saith the Lord I desire not the death of a sinner but that he turn from his way and live Turn ye Turn ye why will ye dye O house of Israel Turn yee Turn yee why will ye dye O yee opposers of the Truth H. You see Brethren what he is we have enough of him It is high time to conclude Sir I desire to conclude all with Prayer B. Sir I have answered your Objections and I take my leave of you For to your Prayers I fear I shall not be able to answer AMEN PSAL. 115. 1. Not unto us O Lord not unto us but unto Thy Name give the Prayse for thy Mercy and for thy Truths sake ADDITIONS ON the By it was said by Mr. To. that although there be no precept for Episcopacy in the New Testament the Apostolicall Institution of it is enough to commend it to us For we have not more to shew for the Lords day than for Episcopacy How then can we maintain the one and abolish the other When the opponent rejected the Authority of the Primitive Church Mr. To. said You do the Papists greater service than you are aware when for feare of Popery you disclaim the Fathers Col. A. In the Revelation the Lords day is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there is the name and we have the practice in other places Holy assemblies on the first day of the week To. True Sir and so much we have for Episcopacy as hath been shewed already B. I remember well I have heard the Learned Doctor of the Chair Dr. Prideaux publickly declaring in the Divinity School that he could not prove the observation of the Lords day by Divine Command in any place of the New Testament but that the Apostolicall practice and example followed by the Church was sufficient to give it a kind of Divine right The like may be said for Episcopacy Church by plain Grammaticall construction doth signify no other thing than the Lords house From 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Kyrc and by adding letters of aspiration Church Hooker l. 5. 13. See the great Hugo Grotius of Authority Ch. 11. Also the Considerations touching the change of Church-Government The Respondent not knowing the most eager Disputant among his Opponents craved his name I was your Collegue saith he B. What I. W. of Gloster-Hall you were an early student in