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A88157 An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth. Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657. 1645 (1645) Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845 46,842 48

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by the Authority of the Scripture and deny either of them and prove against them if you be able Againe your second Argument to prove the Church of England a true Church is this That Ministry which doeth accomplish the same and which the Ministry of the Apostles did must needs be a true Ministry But the Ministry of the Church of England doeth accomplish the same ends that the Apostles Ministry did namely conversion and confirmation Therefore the Ministry of the Church of England must needes be true But to prove your Argument you bring not one Place of Scripture but take that for granted which I confidently thinke neither you nor none in the Ch. of Engl. are ever able to prove therefore I absolutely in every respect deny your Arg. two manner of waies prove against it 1. I will prove that if the Ministry in the Ch. of Engl. did accomplish the same ends that the Ministry of the Apostles did yet for all that that is not sufficient to prove it a true Ministry for to judge the cause by the effect is a Leaden and false Rule 2. I will prove that the Ministry in Engl. doth not accomplish the same ends that the Ministry of the Apostls did therfore by your own Arg. is no true Ministry Now for the first of these which answers the Major of your Arg. I say it hath beene and still may be possible for a man to accomplish the same ends that you here speake of namely to be an Instrument to bring Gods people to the manifestation of Faith also to build them up yet be no true Officer or Minister in the Ch. of God I prove it out of the Acts of the Apostles in which we read that when the Ch. began to encrease Saul raised a great persecution against it upon which all the brethren viz. the members of the Ch. were scattered abroad they went up down preaching the word Act 8.3 but the Apostles themselves they stayed still at Jerusalem Vers 1. Now all those that were scatterd abroad were not true Officiall Ministers for they were but Lay-men according to your distinction in the Church of England yet divers of them who were no true Officers but Bretheren Disciples or private men as you call them yet they preached the Word to the Gentiles there begot by their preaching maany of them to the Faith for the Text saith The hand of the Lord was with them and a great number of them beleeved and then came Barnabas from Jeausalem who was yet no true Officer in the Church of God being as yet uncalled to his Apostleship and he confirmed and strengthened and more fully built them up in the Faith of Christ and in the Knowledge of the wayes of God Also Aquilah and his wife Priscilla did further instruct and build up that Eloquent man Apollos Act. 18.26 Also there were certaine women that laboured with Paull in the Gospell Phil. 4.3 So that here you see and I have proved it that people may be called to the manifesttaion of Eaith and further built up by those that are no true Officers or Ministers in the Church of Chirst but if your Argument were true then it would follow that all those men yea and the women too were true Officers and Ministers in the Church of Christ because they were Instruments of bringing Gods people to the manifestation of Faith and further built them up but your Argument is rotten and unsound and falls here flat to the ground and therefore if I should grant it which I doe not that your Ministers by their Ministry did accomplish the same ends that the Apostles by their Ministry did yet this would not be sufficient to prove them true Officers or Ministers for the excecution of an Office doeth not prove an Officer but only a true and lawfull call into the Office which all your Priests and Minnisters in England want and therefore are no true Officers nor no true Ministers of Jesus Christ For you know that a King hath many in his Kingdome besides himselfe that doe those actions administer those administrations that is peculiar to him alone to doe and administer unlesse they were Authorized by virtue of a power given and derived from him to do such actions without a lawfull Authority given and received from him they might loose their lives for the doing of them but now if your Argument were true that all those men that are meanes or Instrumensts to bring Gods People to the manifestation of Faith and obedience to the Law and will of Christ were true Officers and Ministers of Christ it would follow by the same Argument that all those men that doe the actions of a King or accomplish the same ends that Kings by their actions doe accomplish are true Kings but so to conclude in England is little better then High Treason Therefore your Argument is erroneous and false and hath not validity in it for if so be you will have their Administrations to prove the lawfulnesse of their Office then I pray you wherein doth the execution of their Office consist for an Office and the execution of it are two distinct things for a man by virtue of being instated into the Office of a Judge though he never live to execute any of those acttions or Administrations that belong to his place or Office but he must first receive power to sit in Court of Judicature before he dare take upon to fit there as Judge and when he hath receiced power from the King by virtue of which he is instated into his Office and doth become an Officer then doth he lawfully sit in Court of Judicature and condemneth fellons and guilty persons and acquit the innocent and doth there passe sentence according to the Lawes for the King under whom he is a Judge But now if this Judge should usurpe his place and come into it by virtue of a false Authority and then condemne the Kings Subjects to death though they be theives and malefactors yet he would be in danger of loosing his life for all that though he doe the act and actions that belong to a true Judge to doe because he had no lawfull Authority from the King so to doe for it is the Kings Authority placed upon a man that doth make that person to be an other kind of person then before he was for before he had received this power he was but a private man but now he is an other kind of man namely a a publike person in Office and Authority and may lawfully do those actions now which if he should have done before would have cost him his life Even so is it with the Ministers and Officers which Jesus Christ hath instituted in his New Testament and left personally to officiate in his Church they must be members of an incorporated or constituted City body or visible Church and then if the Church find any amongst themselves fitted or qualified according