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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45832	Saturday no sabbath, or, The seventh-day Sabbath proved to be of no force to the beleeving Gentiles in the times of the Gospel, by the law of nature, Moses, Christ being an account of several publique disputations held at Stone-Chappel by Pauls, London, between Dr. Chamberlain, Mr. Tillam, and Mr. Coppinger ... and Jer. Ives ... : together with an appendix in which the said question is more fully and plainly discussed ... / by Jer. Ives.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1659 (1659)	Wing I1104; ESTC R24396	120,548	256

seventh-day sabbath be not required by Moses Law it is not by your own confession required by the Law of Nature or the Law of Christ and that it is not required by Moses Law I have proved and shall prove further by this Argument If believing Gentiles are commanded to keep the seventh-day sabbath by vertue of Moses Law then they are commanded by that Law Exod 20. But the believing Gentiles are not required by that Law Exod. 20. to keep the seventh-day sabbath Ergo believing Gentiles are not required by Moses Law to keep the seventh-day sabbath Here Dr. Chamberlain forbears to respond to Mr. Ives his Arguments and thereupon Mr. Tillam takes upon him the place of a Respondent whose Answers follow Mr. Tillam For my part I am against this Syllogistical way of Disputation and I had though you and that Gentleman that stands by you * Meaning Mr. Denn had been against all Academical wayes and rules of Disputation also Mr. Ives Truly Sir we had more reason to think you should be FOR such a way of Disputation then you had to think we were against it because you pretend to make use of so much in your late book however See the Epistle give me my liberty to argue this way as I have given Doctor Chamberlain and when it comes to your turn to oppose take what way you will so you prove the thing denyed I pass not in the mean time answer my Argument Mr. Tillam I pray repeat it again Mr. Ives The Argument is as before If believing Gentiles by vertue of Moses Law are commanded to keep the seventh-day Sabbath then they are commanded by that Law Exod. 20. But believing Gentiles are not commanded by that Law Exod. 20. Ergo the believing Gentiles are not commanded by vertue of Moses Law to keep the seventh-day Sabbath Mr. Tillam The Gentiles were bound to keep the Law that was given by God to Israel and particularly that of the seventh-day Sabbath and yet not by Exod. 20. ONELY for they were commanded in Exod 16. also Mr. Ives My Argument doth not say they were bound by the 20th of Exod. ONELY but that if they are bound by Moses Law 〈◊〉 you say they are then they are bound by that Text Exod. 20 where the sabbath is required among other Laws to be observed 〈◊〉 but that the same things might be required elsewhere now if I prove this Text in Exod. 20. doth not command the believing Gentiles to keep the seventh-day sabbath then I have taken away the force of those Arguments you urge from thence in the behalf of it Mr. Tillam Well then I say the believing Gentiles are bound to keep the seventh-day sabbath by vertue of the Command Exod 20. Mr. Ives I prove the believing Gentiles by that Text are not bound to keep the seventh-day sabbath by this Argument If that Law that requireth the Observation of the seventh-day sabbath Exod. 20. be nor in force to believing Gentiles then believing Gentiles are not bound by that Law Exod. 20. to observe the seventh-day sabbath But that Law that requireth the Observation of the seventh day sabbath Exod. 20. is not in force to the believing Gentiles Ergo believing Gentiles are not bound by that Law Exod. 20. to keep the seventh-day sabbath Here Mr. Tillam refused to answer to the Argument because he would not be tyed to deny Ma●or or Minor and therefore one among the Company calls upon Mr. Ives to prove the Minor viz. That the Law that requireth the Observation of the seventh day sabbath Exod. 20. is not in force to believing Gentiles Mr. Ives Well because I would improve the time for Edification though here I might break off and forbear to argue when my Respondent shall refuse to answer yet be cause I am desired by some that stand by I shall prove that that Law is not in force which I thus do If that Law which commandeth the observation of the seventh-day sabbath Exod. 20. be in force unto believing Gentiles then the punishment due to the Transgression of that Law by the Law-Makers appointment is in force unto the believing Gentiles also But the punishment due to the transgression of that Law by the Law-Makers appointment is not in force to the believing Gentiles Ergo that Law Exod. 20. that commandeth the Observation of the seventh-day sabbath is not in force to the believing Gentiles Here Mr. Tillam refuseth to answer and therefore one that stands by denyeth the Minor and prayes Mr. Ives to prove it Mr. Ives I prove the Minor viz. That the punishment that the Law-maker appointed to the breach of the Sabbath required Exod. 20. is not in force If the punishment due to the transgrassion of that Law Exod. 20. be in force to the believing Gentiles by the Law makers appointment then the Law-maker hath appointed some to other to inflict it But the Law-maker hath appointed none to inflict it Ergo the punishment due to the transgression of that Law Exod. 20. is not in force to the believing Gentiles by the Law-makers appointment If we look into the Law of Moses we shall find that whosoever did any work upon the Sabbath day was to be put to death Exod. 35.1 2. and Exod. 31.14 15. And when they had found a man breaking this Law in gathering sticks upon the Sabbath day they brought him to Noses and Aaron and to as the Congregation to see what should he done unto him Num. 15.32 33 34 35 36 and they put him in ward for it was not yet declared what should be done unto him then the Lord said unto Moses Th● m●n sh●●● die the death 〈…〉 all the multitude 〈◊〉 him with ●ones without the ho●● are we find a Law given to keep the Sabbath ●od 20. a punishment assigned by the Law-maker which is Death Exod. 31.14 15. the manner of ●e execution if prescribed by God Num. 19.35 ●●ich is stoning with stones the Executioners of this ●●nishment are likewise appointed by the same Law which is all the multitude And let all the MULTITUDE stone him with stones c. Jer. 35 36. ●w if the seventh day sabbath be in force by vertue of Moses Law then it followeth that the same punishment is in force the same Executioners are appoin●d unless that any body can shew where God hath freed the transgressors from the penalty of it or hath appointed any other punishment then what is appointed 〈◊〉 the Law of Moses Mr. Ives Because Sir you will not answer this Argument by denying either Major or Minor I shall 〈◊〉 on to prove that 〈◊〉 which seems most doubtful which is the Minor Proposition vz. That the Law-maker hath not appointed any to inflict the punishment provided in Moses Law for the seventh-day Sabbath breaking upon believing Gentiles If the Law-maker hath appointed any to inflict the punishment which by Moses Law was to be inflicted noon Sabbath-breakers it is either the civil Magistrate or the Ministers

of value you should have denyed the Major which faith if the punishment be in force c. then the Law-maker hath APPOINTED some or other to inflict it here you might have denyed the Consequence and have told us that the punishment might he in force though mone were appointed because the law-maker might do it himself but this is not to the Question because the Question now is Who the law-maker hath appointed c. Mr. Tillam Well then I shall answer further That sometime the law-maker doth punish immediately and sometimes by his destroying Angel and sometimes by men and they are properly men who are Magistrates in his Congregation in the Church when he shall fulfil that prophesie of restoring Counsellors as at first and Judges as at the beginning It is observable that though Mr. Tillam saith The punishment is in force yet he hath not assigned who IS to inflict it but in stead thereof tells us first that God doth sometimes punish immediately to this it may be replyed that when he punisheth immediately it is when those whom he hath appointed to punish do not do their duty Secondly He tells us that sometime God doth punish the transgressors of his Law by his destroying Angels 〈◊〉 which it may be answered that this is most commonly when the Magistrates and Ministers of Justice do neglect to punish transgressors according as they ought yet this hinders not but all this while some are appointed to punish the seventh day Sabbath breakers if it ought to be kept by the Law of Moses Thirdly Mr. Tillam saith God appointeth men to punish the breach of the seventh-day Sabbath and these men he saith are Magistrates in the Church c. but withal he adds that such Magistrates shall be when the Prophesie of restoring Counsellors as at first and Judges as at the beginning shall be fulfilled But doth not this very saying leave Mr. Ives his Question unanswered For the Question is Who God HATH appointed c. and the Answer is That there SHALL be Magistrates in the Church when the forementioned Prophesie shall be fulfilled but who then shall do it now is the Question because the Text cited by Mr. Tillam that exhorts to remember the Law of Moses doth also call upon the same people at the same time to remember the Statutes and JUDGMENTS so that if beleeving Gentiles ARE bound to observe the Law of Moses they ARE bound to observe the JUDGMENTS also So that Mr. Tillam may as well put off the observation of the Statutes as the observations of those Judgments God would have inflicted on the transgressors of his Statutes and it will not serve his turn to wait till God restoreth such men for the Law that commandeth the seventh day Sabbath of all the Congregation of Israel doth command all the Congregation to stone the Sabbath-breakers to death being lawfully convicted before a Magistrate of the fact So that if Moses Law that requireth the observation of the seventh-day Sabbath be in force to the Congregations of beleeving Gentiles as it was to the Congregations of circumcised Jews and the same punishment as hath been argued be in force to the one as well as the other then by the same Law the beleeving Congregations among the Gentiles are bound having convicted any among them of Sabbath-breaking to stone such a man to death now though such Congregations that do not keep the seventh-day Sabbath by vertue of Moses Law are not tyed thus to do yet all of Mr. Tillams opinion I mean all such Congregations that hold themselves bound by Moses Law to keep the seventh-day Sabbath I say all such Congregations stand bound to stone that member to death that shall be found to break it having lawfully convicted him by two or three witnesses neither have they any other rule by that Law to put away such an evil or such an evil doer from among them and this would hold good in all respects if God should at any time bring a Magistrate of the Commonwealth to be a member in Mr. Tillams Church then by his own grant if they shall convict a member for Sabbath-breaking before such a Magistrate then such a Magistrate by Moses Law ought to judge him guilty of death and then it roundly followeth that all Mr. Tillams Congregation must stone that man with stones till he die to put away the evil from among them Who then can be true to this seventh-day Sabbath-keeping principally as bound to it by Moses Law but they must also submit their necks to such a yoke as this which is not consistent with that Law of love and charity which ought to be preferred among Christians in the times of the Gospel Thus having given a faithful account of the Arguments and Answers urged by Dr. Chamberlain and Mr. Tillam and Mr. Ives the first day I shall now proceed to the Arguments and Answers insisted on by both sides the next day which was on Friday 7 of Jan. 1658. The people being assembled Mr. Ives repeateth the Question which take as followeth Mr. Ives The Question agreed to be further disputed this day is Whether all beleeving Gentiles are bound to keep the seventh-day Sabbath and I shall desire that whoever shall speak this day to this question either as Opponent or Respondent may apply themselves to the right rules of Disputation Mr. Tillam As to the question stated I do freely assent to the terms agreed on and do say that all believing Gentiles are bound to keep the seventh-day Sabbath but as to your other Motion viz. that we observe the Rules of Disputation this I told you yesterday and do tell you again that such a way of Disputation is vain Philosophy and the device of mans wisdom and therefore I shall not be tied to any such Method Mr. Ives Sir I do not tie you to this or that way only I think you mis-apply Scriptures when you bring them to prove that making Syllogisms is unlawful when such forms of Arguing are frequently found in Scripture however Sir give me leave to use it till I am perswaded of the unlawfulness of it and I shall give you your liberty to prove either by Syllogisms or by plain Texts That all believing Gentiles are bound to keep the seventh-day sabbath Mr. Tillam There is no plain Text that in so many words proves the Proposition Mr. Ives If there be no plain text to prove the Proposition then you must prove by consequence which is upon the matter the same with Syllogising and therefore I wonder you should be so much against such a way of discourse Mr. Tillam I am not against Consequences or Inferences from Scripture though I am against disputing in Mood and Figure Mr. Ives If you will not dispute by Mood and Figure then I shall tie you to bring plain Texts for what you affirm Mr. Tillam There is not a Text saith in so many words as I have told you that believing Gentiles are bound to keep

seventh day sabbath Ergo all believing Gentiles are bound to observe the seventh day sabbath Mr. Ives Pray explain what you mean when you say Christ DID teach it do you mean before his death or after Mr. Coppinger I do mean that Christ did teach the seventh day sabbath upon the Mount Mat. 5. VVhence I thus argue If Christ in his Sermon upon the Mount did preach the seventh day sabbath then all believing Gentiles are bound to keep the seventh day sabbath But Christ in his Sermon upon the Mount did preach the seventh day sabbath Ergo all believing Gentiles are bound to keep the seventh day sabbath Mr. Ives I tell you Sir that this is not fair arguing when both Propositions are justly to be denyed however I deny the Consequence for it doth not follow that if Christ did preach the seventh day sabbath upon the Mount that therefore all believing Gentiles are bound to observe it for I shall shew some things that Christ commanded to be observed upon the Mount that Mr. Coppinger himself saith Believing Gentiles are not bound to observe Mr. Coppinger I shall prove that all that Christ did preach upon the Mount and taught others to preach believing Gentiles are bound to observe If all that Christ taught upon the Mount and commanded others to teach was to abide as long as the Sun and Moon and Heaven and Earth remain then all the believing Gentiles are bound to observe all that Christ taught upon the Mount But all that Christ taught upon the Mount and commanded others to teach was to abide as long as Heaven and Earth Sun and Moon remains Ergo all the believing Gentiles are bound to observe all that Christ taught upon the Mount Mr. Ives I deny the Minor all that Christ taught upon the Mount is not to abide as long as Heaven and Earth remain Mr. Coppinger Then you must shew us something that Christ did teach upon the Mount and command others to teach that is not binding Mr. Ives That I shall do therefore pray look into Mat. 5.23 24. Christ there commands that a man should leave his gift at the Altar and go and be reconciled to his brother and then Christ commands him to come and offer his gift these are commands given upon the Mount Secondly they are such commands as he bids others to do and teach ver 19. for they were to do and teach the least of those commandments Thirdly these commands that are taught upon the Mount are not all in force to believing Gentiles because that command of leaving the gift at the Altar and coming to offer it upon the Altar is not now in force therefore all that Christ commanded in his Sermon upon the Mount is not of force to believing Gentiles Mr. Coppinger The word altar and gift is variously taken as Heb. 13.10 We have an altar whereof they have no right to eat that serve the tabernacle and so likewise the word gift is variously taken as Christ is called The Gift of God Rom. 6.23 and Paul tells the Corinthians they came behind in no Gift 1 Cor. 1.7 and Phil. 4.7 Not because I desire a Gift and to this agree all Interpreters that gift and altar in this fifth of Matthew and 23 24. is taken allegorically Mr. Ives I answer to the last first that Mr. Coppinger doth abuse Interpreters or else he never read any for I challenge him to shew me any one Interpreter that ever understood altar and gift in Mat. 5. allegorically It is true that they sometimes make a spiritual application of these words but they all with one consent understand the words literally But secondly Mr. Coppinger hath shewed us that altar and gift is variously understood but hath not out of this variety told us which of these senses should be put upon altar and gift in this fifth of Matthew But thirdly I do challenge Mr. Coppinger or any man else to shew me that a gift at the altar is ever understood allegorically throughout the Scriptures from the Creation of the world to the death of Jesus Christ And lastly that Christ doth here intend a literal altar appears if we do but consider Mat. 8.4 where we shall finde that what Christ taught upon the Mount he exhorts the man that was cured of his Leprosie to observe for as soon as Christ descended from the Mount he cleans'd the Leper and then commanded him to offer a gift as Moses had commanded which could not be understood allegorically Mr. Coppinger The text that you last urged doth speak of a gift but not of an altar and the text under debate speaks of a gift and an altar Secondly This Christ bid the Leper do that it might be a Testimony of him to the Priest that so if the Priest should ask him how he was cleansed or who did cleanse him he might hereby have an opportunity to testifie Christ unto the Priest and tell him that Jesus of Nazareth made him whole * This cannot be the true sence of the Lepers shewing himself to the Priest for a Testimony but rather it was in observation of Moses Law which did command the Lepers to shew themselves to the Priest that the Priest having viewed the Leper he might give a Testimony to the people That this man was now fit to go abroad who before had dwelt in an out-house See Lev. 14. Mr. Ives I answer to your last first That if Christ did command the Leper to shew himself to the Priest and offer an offering according to the Law then let the end for which he did it be what it will your Argument is confuted for here is some part of the Law commanded by Christ before his death that is not binding to the believing Gentiles since the resurrection But secondly whereas you say that this text Mat. 8.4 speaks of a gift but not an altar I answer that I never heard that the Priest in Moses Law did ever offer a gift without an altar my reason is because Christ saith Mat. 23.19 That the altar sanctifieth the gift therefore this gift spoken of Mat. 8. must needs be a gift to be offered upon an Altar as well as that gift spoken of Mat. 5. Mr. Coppinger If you look into the text it is said The Leper was to offer as Moses commanded now if we will see how Moses commanded the Leper to offer let us read Lev. 14.4 5 6 7. we shall there read of the Priests taking two birds and his killing one of them over running water and that he did dip the living bird in the blood of that which was killed and then the Priest was to let the living bird fly away into the open field this indeed was to be done for the cleansing the Leper but here is not one word that the Priest was to offer any thing upon the Altar in all this Chapter Mr. Ives Have a care Sir what you say utter nothing rashly for if you look but into the 20 verse of this