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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63214	The tryals and condemnation of Thomas White alias Whitebread, provincial of the Jesuits in England, William Harcourt, pretended rector of ]ondon, John Fenwick,procurator for the Jesuits in England, John Gavan alias Gawen, and Anthony Turner, all Jesuits and priests; for high treason: in conspiring the death of the King, the subversion of the government, and Protestant religion. At the Sessions in the Old-Bailey for London and Middlesex, on Friday and Saturday, being the 13th and 14th of June, 1679. Published by authority.	Whitbread, Thomas, 1618-1679, defendant.; Barrow, William, 1610-1679, defendant.; Caldwell, John, 1628-1679, defendant.; Gawen, John, 1640-1679, defendant.; Turner, Anthony, 1628 or 9-1679, defendant.; Corker, James Maurus, 1636-1715, defendant.	1679 (1679)	Wing T2248; ESTC R219768	109,846	92

must have right though there be never so much time lost and patience spent Say they We must prove and contradict men by such matters as we can people may swear downright things and 't is impossible to contradict them but we will call Witnesses to prove those particulars that can be proved ●ay where Mr. Ireland was in August Dr Oates He took his leave of us in Town in August and that was between the eighth and twelfth at Harcourts Chamber Lord Chief Just What do you infer from Irelands being there then Dr. Oates I 'le tell you what I design in it your Lordship may perceive that I did methodize my Evidence according to the time for I said this was our business in April this in July and now we come to the business of August said I we took our leaves of Mr. Ireland between the eighth and twelfth I said in July Mr. Fenwick was out of Town but then if your Lordship remembers I said he was in Town and took his leave of Mr. Ireland between the eighth and the twelfth of August Lord Chief Just Was Mr Ireland in Fenwicks company at that time in August Dr. Oates Yes my Lord he was when he took his leave Lord Chief Just Did they talk then of this business Dr. Oates They took their leaves of one another but as to what particular things of the Plot they spoke about I don't remember Lord Chief Just Look you now mind what he says Ireland and Fenwick were together in August between the eighth and the twelfth but being asked Whether they were met on purpose to talk of the Plot he says he does not remember the particulars Here the Lady Southcott her Son and her Daughter were called Lord Chief Just Did you say that Fenwick there at the Bar had converse with Ireland in August for the carrying on of the Plot Dr. Oates Yes my Lord. L. C. J. My rule is this in doubtful cases when men are upon their lives I had rather hear what is impertinent than not let them make a full defence Lord Chief Just North I had rather hear things at a venture than forbid things at a venture Lady Southcott stood up Lord Chief Just How long were you in Mr. Irelands Company Lady Southcott From the fifth of August to the sixteenth Lord Chief Just What every day Lady Southcott Yes every day Dr. Oates My Lord here is Sarah Pain who before hath testified what she hath known in this matter If your Lordship please I desire she may be call'd in readiness to speak to it Lord Chief Just Are you sure it was the fifth Lady Southcott Yes as sure as I can be of any thing Mr. Recorder Dr. Oates you had best keep your Evidence intire till the last Then Sir John Southcott was called and appeared Lord Ch. Just Did you know mr Ireland Sir John Southcott Yes I did know him by face Lord Ch. Just Where did you see him Sir John Southcott I saw him the fifth of August at St. Albans Lord Ch Just And did he travel along with you Sir Jo. Southcot Yes he did travel along with us the sixth seventh eighth and ninth Lord Ch. Just How many days did he travel along with you Sir John Southcott He trave'ld along with us four days together I am sure L. C. J. What from the 5th to the 9th Sir Iohn Southcott Yes Sir L. C. J. Is this all that you can say Sir Iohn Southcott Yes my Lord. L. C. J. But we would know where he was afterwards did you see him after the 9th Sir Iohn Southcott My Lord I saw him at St Albans and we went from thence to Northampton and from thence to Coventry and from thence to my Lord Astons that is four days and I saw him Thursday I saw him Friday Saturday and Munday following Tuesday I had occasion to go further into the Country and he went along with us so I saw him Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and Friday afterwards L. C. J. Why then you saw him at least twelve days Sir Iohn Southcott Yes L. C. J. Have you any more Then Mr. Edward Southcott stood up L. C. J. Were you here when Ireland was tryed Sir Iohn Southcott No. L. C. J. Did you see Mr. Ireland in August last Mr. Southcott The third of August he came down to my Lord Astons at Stanmore they said so but I cannot swear he came that night but I saw him very early the next morning the 5th we went to St. Alban we kept on till we came to Tixall and I was in his company from the 4th to the 16th L. C. J. Why you hear what he says he was in company with him every day from the 4th to the 16th Gaven Call Mrs. Harewell and her Daughter Mrs. Gifford and Mrs. Pendrell Then Mrs. Harewell stood up L. C. J. Did you see Mr. Ireland in August last Harewell I saw Ireland in August last the 17th day He came then to my House at Wolverhampton and there he continued every day and lay in my house every night till the 26th day Then young Mrs. Harewell stood up Harewell Mr. Ireland came to our house in Staffordshire the 17th of August and stay'd there till the 26th I saw him every day unless it was Friday the day before Bartholomew-day when he went to Litchfield and returned again Gaven My Lord there is a prisoner now in Newgate that can testifie the same L. C. J. North. Would you ask your fellow if you be a Thief he is in for the same offence Gaven My Lord I desire to know if a man be not convicted of the same offence whether he be not a good Witness L C J North. If he stand charged with the same Plot his Evidence is of little weight Then Elizabeth Keiling stood up L C J Did you see Mr. Ireland in August Keiling Yes my Lord I did L C J Where did you see him Keiling I saw him at Wolverhampton there he was from Saturday the 17th to Munday and then I went to see my Mother and came back again on Thursday and found him there and there he was till the 26th Gaven Call Mr. Pendrell and his Wife Then Pendrell stood up L C J. When did you see Mr. Ireland Pendrell I saw him the second and third of September L. C J. Where did you see him Pendrell At Boscobel L. C. J. And what did you see him in August Pendrell No my Lord. L. C. J. How do you know you saw him then Pendrell My Wife being paid for his diet set down the day L. C. J. What he came to sojourn with you did he Pendrell They were with me for their Meals and so my Wife set it down L. C. J. Why do you set down the day of the month when any one comes to you Pendrell Yes my Lord when we are paid for their Diet we do L. C. J. What do you keep a publick House Pendrell I keep the Royal Oak L C J Methinks you

Mr. Harcourt Mr. Dugdale I have received several Pacquets of Letters from several persons beyond Seas which were by his instruction communicated by Mr. Grove to Mr. Ewers which Letters did contain Treason in them for the introducing of Popery and killing and destroying the King Lord Chief Just How can you tell that Mr. Dugdale Mr. Harcourt hath given it under his own hand and I have intercepted the Letters and read them Lord Chief Justice You were acquainted with the hand Mr. Dugdal● 〈◊〉 my Lord. Lord Chief 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read the Letters then Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord I did Lord Chief Justice How many Letters have you intercepted have you interepted Twenty Mr. Dugdale Yes 100 my Lord Mr. Harcourt was the first that gave intelligence into the Countrey as I know of of the death of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey Sir Cr. Levins Tell when it was given and how Mr. Dugd. I have made it out already upon Oath and I have Witnesses to prove it Sir Cr. Levins Pray Sir tell it now Mr. Dugdale It was directed to Mr. Ewers and it was three days before he was found for it was received on the monday and he as it is proved was killed on the Saturday The words were these This very night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched And I very much rejected Mr. Ewers for this Action and then told him This will overthrow the Design or I will be hanged Lord Chief Just What day did you receive the Letter Mr. Dugdale I have proved I received it on a monday Lord Chief Just But pray what date did it bear Mr. Dugdale That Letter must come by Saturday Post for it said This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched Lord Chief Just He did not name any body by whom Mr. Dugdale No but it said he was killed and we knew by whom Mr. Justice Pemberton And are you sure that was Mr. Harcourts letter Mr. Dugdale Yes for he did usually sign his letters with two letters W. H. which stood either for Harcourt or Harrison Mr. Belwood Did you acquaint any body with this or did you conceal it Mr. Dugdale I did go to an Alehouse that is hard by my Lords the next day which was Tuesday and there I asked if they did not hear some news of a Knights being kill'd at London And I have an Evidence here if your Lordship please I will call him who I desire may testifie the same thing Lord Chief Just Yes by all means Sir Cr. Levins Mr. Dugdale Pray will you give us some more account of the letter that came from Mr. Whitebread to Mr. Ewers Mr. Dugdale I remember one particularly but I cannot tell what number I have seen Sir Cr. Levins Did you see more than that one Mr. Dugdale I particularly remember that Lord Chief Justice What was that one particularly Harcourt My Lord I desire to ask him one Question When was the last time that you received any letters from me Mr. Dugdale The last I received from you to my best remembrance was that about Sir Edmondbury Godfrey and it was in October Harcourt I have not writ to that person this year and half Lord Chief Justice Let that man be called that proves this business of the death of Sir Edmondbury and the talk of it Mr. Dugdale mr Harcourt you know very well that when Mr. Ireland was last in the Country last year you were to send him the Answers that came by letters from Saint Omers and those were sent down to my Lord Astons and I saw them eight of those letters I am sure And I can prove it by one circumstance two of them came relating to Mr. Edward Astons death from Paris I intercepted them and talking of it that I could conjure and tell of the death of Mr. Edward Aston before any of his Friends knew of it And Mr. Ireland writ a chiding letter about it that he had not heard it sooner and you sent down word That you did write those letters and ye● you say you have not written to me of a Twelvemonth or more Harcourt This Gentleman does pretend to know my hand and 't is true I have writ several letters for Mr. Ewers and directed to him but as to this time he speaks of I have left off writing for divers years He pretends to know me and yet this Gentleman before the Committee of Commons in Parliament which was yesterday was 5 weeks as well as he knew my hand came and said I was a Gentleman he did not know He came also to entrap me at the Gatehouse before those Gentlemen of the Committee of the House of Commons but because he said he knew my hand so very well and testifie those expressions in the letter I must say this I never did write any such letter nor did I ever in my life seem to approve of any mans death or murder But the thing is this he pretends to know my hand and to prove it the Gentlemen desired me to write my own hand and my name and he in the mean time did withdraw and three of them did write their names afterwards they called him in again and asked him which was Harcourts hand he was not able to say which it was Lord Chief Just You write more hands as well as have more names and can counterfeit your hands as well as change your names Mr. Justice Pemberton You speak before your time and your bare word goes for nothing Lord Chief Justice But Mr. Dugdale where is your Witness Harcourt I don't know any thing of this Lord Chief Justice But if he calls up a Witness of whom you can have no suspicion that can testifie that at this time Mr. Dugdale spoke about the death of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey What will you say to that Harcourt I believe there is no such thing at all ●ir Cr. Levins My Lord here is Mr Chetwin pray swear him Which was done L. C. J. Mr. Chetwin Do you remember that Mr. Dugdale came to you any time last ●ummer and what time and what discourse had you Mr. Chetwin My Lord if your Lordship please I was most part of the Summer in the Country I came into Staffordshire about the 29th of August My Lord there is a Gentleman one Mr. Sanbidge that is a Kinsman of my Lord Astons that was very well acquainted with the Family where I was which was half a mile off my Lords and used to come and play with me at Tables My Lord at that very time in October he came to me and there says he Do you hear nothing of a Justice of Peace in Westminster where you live that is killed or to that effect No said I and I had Letters yesterday and heard nothing of if Saith he I was this morning at Elds and there a Girl of the House told me Mr. Dugdale had been there and reported that there was a Justice of Peace of Westminster was killed but who he should be I never heard named and on Saturday

J. Mr. Corker you have heard the Indictment read● 〈◊〉 what it consists of a Traiterous endeavour to subvert the Government to Mor● 〈◊〉 King to change the Protestant Religion into Popery if you have any witnesses that can be serviceable to you as to these matters name who they are and where they live if you cannot you had as good take your Tryal now as at another time Corker I not only have no witnesses ready but there are substantial circumstances which peradventure may arise which may induce your Lordship to believe me innocent and therefore I humbly beg I may stay some short time to consult with those that are better skill'd in the Law than I am L. C. J. What do you mean to have counsell assigned you Corker My friends my Lord. Lord Ch. Just Every man knows his own case be●● you have been bread a Scholar and so you cannot be so ignorant as other men ar● you can tell whether you have any Witnesses that you think are material for your defence Corker That day of the 24 th of April spoken of in the Indictment I truly and really believe I was not in Town that day but I cannot positively prove it because I heard not of it before Lord Ch. Just Is there any body that can testifie where you were that day can you name any one Corker Yes I believe I can name one and that is one Alice Gaton that is now 30 miles out of Town at Tunbridge who can prove where I did go about that time Lord Ch. Just I l'e tell you what if my Brothers will this woman you suppose can say something for you we will respite your Tryal for to day send some body for her and we will Trie you to morrow Lord Ch. Just North. Or any other Witnesses for as to this 24 th day of April it is known to all the world to have been the day of the Consult But because you pretend a surprise I must tell you that Mr. Attorny sent you notice with the rest but because you might be led into another opinion that the Council did not order it you have the favour to be put off till to morrow Get your Witnesses ready if you can Lord Ch. Just If you have any other Witnesses or desire any order for their appearance let us know it Corker I desire I may have liberty to have my Tryal put off till Monday Lord Ch. Just North. No it cannot be Monday is the Assogin day and then the Commission will be out Lord Ch. Just Call the Jury Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alies Whitebread hold up thy hand and so as to the rest You the Prisoners at the Bar those men that you shall hear call'd and personally appear are to pass between our Soveraign Lord the King and you upon Tryal of your several lives and deaths if therefore you or any of you will challenge them or any of them your time is to speak unto them as they come to the Book to be sworn and before they be sworn Call Sir Philip Matthews Whitebread We Challenge him my Lord that there may not be any further trouble it is our general Petition that none of those that were for any of the former Tryals may be of this Jury they having already pass'd their Judgment upon the Evidence they have heard Lord Ch. Just You may Challenge them And therefore speaking to the Clerk of the Crown dont take any that were upon the last Jury for this cause Gavan Nor any of the former Juries we do this that we may avoid giving your Lordship any farther trouble because if we should stay upon particulars we should too much trouble the Court. Lord Ch. Just North. Look you I will tell you by the way you have the liberty to Challenge peremptorily so many All we can do is to give direction to the Clerk if he do not pursue it we do not know them we can't tell you must look after that Mr. Recorder You have the Books wherein are notes of all their names by you Then The Jury that were Sworn were these Twelve JURY Thomas Harriott William Gulston Allen Garraway Richard Cheney John Roberts Thomas Cash Rainsford Waterhouse Matthew Bateman John Kaine Richard White Richard Bull and Thomas Cox Cl. of Cr. Cryer count these Thomas Harriott Cryer One c. Cl. of Cr. Thomas Cox Cryer Twelve good men and True stand together and here your Evidence Then the usual Proclamation for Infornation was made and the Jury-men of Middle-sex Summon'd and not Sworn were dismiss'd till next morning eight of the Clock Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alias Whitebread hold up thy hand and so to the rest You Gentlemen that are sworn look upon the Prisoners and hearken to their Cause they stand indicted by the names of Thomas White c. put in the indictment Mutatis Mutandis and against the form of the Statute in that case made and provided Upon this Indictment they have been Arraigned and thereunto have severally pleaded not Guilty and for their Tryals have put themselves upon God and their Country which Country you are Your charge is to enquire whether they or any of them are Guilty of the high Treason whereof they stand Indicted or not Guilty If you find them or any of them Guilty you are to enquire what Goods or Chattels Lands or Tenements they had at the time of the High Treason committed or at any time since If you find them or any of them not Guilty you are to Enquire whether they fled for it if you find that they fled for it you are to Enquire of their Goods and Chattels as if you had found them Guilty If you find them not Guilty nor that they nor any of them fled for it say so and no more and hear your Evidence Then Mr. Belwood of Counsel for the King in this cause open'd the Indictment thus Mr. Belwood May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury The Prisoners at the Bar Thomas White alias Whitbread John Fenwick William Harcourt alias Harrison John Gavan and Anthony Turner together with James Corker stand Indicted of High Treason 't is charged in the Indictment That the 24 th of April in the 30 th year of the King that now is These persons with other Traitors unknown did purpose and conspire to stir up sedition and Rebellion to cause a miserable slaughter of the Kings Subjects to depose the King of his Government and bring him to death and to change the Government and Religion by Laws established and to Levy war against the King And 't is further charged in the Indictment that pursuant of this intention of theirs and the better to bring it to pass They did Assemble Consult and agree First to bring his Maiesty to death to Murther the King and thereupon to change the Religion Established by Law to the Superstition of the Romish-Church and to subvert the whole Government and it was agreed that Pickering and

you were there at the seeing of the Play Dr. Oates my Lord as to that twentieth of June I was there and there was an Action at that time for I was then returned thither from London Parry I deny all that for he never stirr'd out of the Colledge L. C. J. Youngman in what Quality were you there Parry I was a Student there a Poet. L. C. J. How can you say he did not stir thence all the while Parry I know by a particular thing I din'd and supp'd with him there but when he was in the infirmary but the particular passage was this He did there fall out with a Gentleman that was in the Infirmary too L. C. J. When was that Parry It w●s ●t th● time that he says he came away L. C. J. When w●●● he 〈◊〉 Parry T●e 25●h of April Old Style and staid a matter of three or four days Dr. Oates Will you be pleased to take notice of this he says that Hilsley left me at St. Omers when he cam● 〈◊〉 and that the next day he dined with me and that I went into th● I●fi●ni●● ●h●● he says was the 25th of April Old Style Now we will run to a g●● ad humin●m 〈◊〉 this ●●re the 25th of April Old Style how did Mr. Williams me●t with Mr. Hilsly i● Cali● ●●d r●store him his money when the 24th old stile Mr. Williams was at the co●sul● 〈◊〉 London L C. J. When was it that you say Mr. Hilsley was at St. Omers Fenwick Answer my Lords Question Parry He went away the 24th of April as I Remember Lord Chief Just What Old stile Parry Yes old stile acccording to the reckoning there D. Oates But my Lord upon the Oath that I have taken if he mean new stile all that this Gentleman hath said about this is false except that I was there the 20th of June Lord Chief Just Was it new stile or old stile that you say Mr. Hilsly went away Mr. Recorder He does not know new stile from old stile Parry He went the 24th that is the old stile beyond Sea Whitebread I do desire he may answer whether he does know that Mr. Oates was ever out of the house from the time he came in December till June but one night Parry No he never was out but one night at Watton Lord Chief Justice From what time to what time Parry It was but two days and one night Lord Chief Just What time was it that he was there first Parry He came thither in December Lord Chief Justice And he did stay there all the while Parry He did not stir from the Colledge till the end of June and never went out but a day or two as I know of L. C. J. Not as you know of but might not he go and you not know of it Parry I am sure of it L. C. J How can you tell Parry Not a Scholar goes from thence to England but the whole Colledge rings of it Gaven And then my Lord when they go out they go in Secular Cloaths that none but must know when any person leaves the Colledge Dr. Oates My Lord in such cases though t is true in a general sense yet it is but a general Rule and every general Rule admits of its exceptions and my case was a particular Exception I put on the habit of the House as soon as I did return from London and did not appear as if I had gone out of the House nor did I know that it was known that I had been out for I did never appear in a secular habit Whitebread What his Cloaths were does not change the place he sate in he being ancienter than the Boys had a priviledge to sit in a particular place which must be known to all the House at Dinner and Supper He was visible every day there L. C. J. I do believe it and therefore he says not only that he was reported to be there but that he saw him there almost every day Then another Witness for the Prisoner stood up L. C. J. What say you young Lad Doddington I say my Lord L. C. J. What is your name Doddington Doddington Dr Oates Pray my Lord ask him if he went by that Name at St. Omers Mr. J. Pemberton What was your Name at St. Omers Doddington My name was Hollis there L. C J. How old are you Doddington Eighteen years and an half L. C. J. What can you say where was m● Oates Doddington He never went out of the Colledge but one night to Watton till the end of June L. C. J. When came he into the Colledge Doddington A fortnight before Christmas I did not mind the day he says himse●● it was the 10th of December Lord Chief Just Was he there till June Doddington Yes he never went out till June but one night Lord Chief Just Where was that At Watton Doddington Yes my Lord. Lord Chief Just How do you know that Doddington I only know that by what all the house said Lord Chief Just Did you see him every day except that day Doddington I cannot say I saw him every day because he was in the Infirmary once and he was there that very day after Mr. Hilsly went away Lord Chief Just What day was it that Mr. Hilsly went away Doddington The 24th of April new stile and that day he fell sick and went into the Infirmary the next Lord Chief Just What day of the week was that Doddington It was of a Sunday Lord Chief Just And when did you see Mr. Oates Doddington On monday or Tuesday I am not certain Lord Chief Just How often did you see him from the 24th of April to June Did you see him every other day Doddington Yes that I am sure of for every other day I am not certain every day Lord Chief Just Are you positive Jury We desire to know what time of the year he was in the Infirmary Doddington I discoursed with him in the Infirmary two or three days after Mr. Hilsly went away Lord Chief Just But what time of the year was it Doddington He was there first in Winter and then afterwards he was in at this time which was in April Lord Chief Just Have you any more to say Doddington I can say more that I saw Mr. Oates the second of May with one Blood or Burnaby and I am sure I saw him in his company Lord Chief Just Where did you see him Doddington I saw him walking in the Garden with Mr. Burnaby Mr. Just Pemberton When did you come into England Doddington I came over the 24th of April Lord Chief Just How long have you been in England Doddington About two months Mr. Just Pemberton Why did you come over were you sent for over upon this oc●asion Doddington No I was not Mr. Just Pemberton Why did you come over Doddington I came over partly upon the Kings Proclamation Lord Chief Just What Proclamation was that L. C. Just North That those that were in

Now this good Dr. that does say he saw him here in the latter end of March or the middle of April whereas he himself says he came over with Hilsley the 24th of April L. C. J. He was Landed here the 17th of April and the Witnesses say it was the latter end of April or beginning of May. Whitebread mr Oates expresly said he stay'd here but 6 dayes when he came over to the Consult L. C. J. Why does not all this stand together Whitebread No my Lord how could this stand together His coming over the 17th and his being here a great part in May whereas he says he was but 6 days L. C. J. Perchance Dr. Oates may be precise enough but look you here these Witnesses do not so exactly to a day or two or 3 or 4 or 5 but to the latter end of April now why might they not see him the latter end of April and the beginning of May and yet stand very well with mr Oates testimony who says he was landed here about the 17th of April and staied here about 6 or 7 days How nice would you have them be in that case which because they are honest they will not be L. C. J. Nor. You make your defences to depend upon an uncertainty of time which no mortal man can ever remember besides pray observe this That Mr. Oates stands a good witness till you impeach him by a fry out of your own Schools and they go to the whole moneths of June and April and May now these all speak in contradiction to them and so mr Oates is still set an upright and good witness Whitebread They say they did see him there every day or every other day L. C. J. But sure I can as well tell who see him but once in such a month and dined with him then as any that saw him never so often but here are five Witnesses upon you in this point Whitebread The one was told by his man the other by his boy L. C. J. The Coach-man and the boy and the maid and mr Smith did see him Mr. Just Pemberton The Divine did see him and went and told the woman that he had seen him pray remember that L. C. J. Nor. Now the Evidence is concluded say what you will for your selves and then we will observe what you object upon our direction to the Jury according to our Consciences Gaven My Lord then I say this for my self we commit our selves to God Almighty We must compare the number tho ours were not sworn yet there were 16 of them boys young men that conversed with him every day and these witnesses speak but of one or two particular days One says he dined with him and another saw him in a disguise but my Lord in these very Witnesses there is an apparent contradiction because out of his own mouth ex ore tuo te judico they are contradicted He says he came over upon Sunday with Hilsley which was the 20th of April as I think and stayed here only a matter of 6 days One of the witnesses says he saw him the first Munday in May What signifie the witnesses though upon Oath that say they him in May How can he come over the 20th of April and stay but 6 days and be seen here in May Before these can be reconciled one of them must be false and then my Lord besides that which I first said there is the number of witnesses they are nothing in comparison with the number of ours And then my Lord 2 dly if we should grant that a lesser number should serve the turn because they are sworn for the King because they swear for the safety of the King whom God preserve whatsoever becomes of me and the other speak not upon their Oaths yet my Lord this does not destroy nor touch at all that evidence that is brought against him about the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner and Sir Thomas Preston And tho it be granted that all the others that spoke about mr Oates being at St. Omers be mistaken and must not be believed yet we have him still by those 6 others who have proved that he hath sworn false and I hope we shall have fair play in the Law to make the best defence we can for our lives and I humbly conceive no body must be convicted of High Treason by the Law but upon the Evidence of two sufficient witnesses Now I leave it to the Conscience Honour of the Court whether he shall be believed and counted a sufficient witness when there are so many that have proved him false in that one point And then besides all this my Lord we have here 16 at least Stafford-shire Witnesses who give you an account of mr Irelands being out of London from the 2 d. of August till 14 September so that in these two things he hath been contradicted without any Answer for he says the 12. of August he was with him when they say he was in Stafford-shire L.C. J. You have forgot the maid that saw him in London the 12 or 13. Gaven No my Lord I have not And this is it I answer to it She is a witness that only says she just saw him but did not speak to him L. C. J. She made a Courtesie to him Gaven We are talking now of seeing Ireland in August and we prove by Sir John Souththcott and all his Family who say they began their journey with him the 5th of August and stayed with him till the 19 th after the particular day that she speaks of you find 7 or 8 of them swear that they saw him all the time And therefore I would feign know whether poor mens lives shall be cast away upon such Evidence as this And then my Lord for the other thing I hope I have made a very good Plea for my self concerning the matter of July my witnesses could be positive as to the last week but for the other weekes tho they could not be positive they rather believed I was there then not but when it is urged why might not they give as good a testimony for the former weeks as for that To this I answer fully that there is a great predominant reason why they should have particular reason to swear why I should be there the last week rather than the other weeks because I was then shut up in the spiritual exercise they had a particular reason to take notice of that Then my Lord I hope you will be pleased to mind this by which I have made my Plea good that is my Lord that mr Oates testimony against me is this mr Ashby came to town about the middle of July and that he stay'd there about a fortnight and that in the time of that fortnight I came to Town and said I would go see Father Ashby and had that discourse be speaks of and so much for that And then my Lord I beseech you still to bear it in