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A00759 A defence of the liturgie of the Church of England, or, Booke of common prayer In a dialogue betweene Nouatus and Irenæus. By Ambrose Fisher, sometimes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge. Fisher, Ambrose, d. 1617.; Grant, John, fl. 1630. 1630 (1630) STC 10885; ESTC S122214 157,602 344

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obseruation Doe you impugne Subscription in Word or Deed for many Conforme which will not Subscribe N. We approue not them For a daily publique Conformitie is more then a single and almost solitary Subscription Now generally against Subscription I thus dispute To subscribe to a thing that shall be altred is vnlawfull But a new Translation is expected and new Homilies promised to bee set forth by common authoritie Ergo. I. If your Maior were firme How might Ceremonia dicta est à 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to remaine for a time the Iewes in ancient time haue subscribed to the Ceremonies in Moses Law which were to bee altred by Christ Or how may Subiects sweare to the obseruation of a Law which is repealable at the next Session of a Parliament Againe your Minor doth rely vpon two dreames For first you suppose that in the new Translation all things shall bee innouated according to your doubts as Polycletus made an Image according to the minde of the multitude Secondly whereas one and twentie Homilies before promised are now extant you still suspect that some errours shall bee obtruded vpon you by authoritie N. We haue as little cause to hope the first as iust to feare the latter My next reason then is this To subscribe to knowne errours is little better then heresie But in your Seruice-booke is a masse of Errours Ergo. I. The Maior of this reason is refelled by the Minor of the former argument For if the Translation shal be corrected by reason of some errours supposed therein It is cleere that the intent of Subscription is only to oblige vs to thinke that no fundamentall errour is lurking in it seeing no Booke saue the authentique Canon of the text can claime to it selfe simple immunitie from errour The masse of errours Errorum massa Missa mentioned in your Minor will bee to massie a worke for you to proue N. My last argument doth thus proceed It is a crying sinne to subscribe to antichristianisme But such is your Liturgie according to your owne former definition as being imposed vpon the Conscience with pretended necessitie Ergo. I. Your Minor is a misprision For I said that Antichrist imposeth things indifferent as necessary to saluation But you altering the state of the question intreat about necessitie of Conformitie vnder the penalty of Depriuation Ignorantia Elenchi not of eternall life but of a momentanie liuing And yet all both Nations and Religions haue vrged this vniforme order N. Doth not then Subscription binde the Conscience I. It bindes as it is an oath tendered to God directly and yet indirectly also as it is an humane constitution So ill Positiue Lawes tie the Conscience by vertue of the fift precept of the Decalogue N. Things indifferent cannot binde Conscience But Ecclesiasticall Lawes are about things Figura dictionis quatuor termini indifferent Ergo. I. Your double medium causeth your argument to play fast and loose For Obedience in things indifferent is necessary not indifferent N. What then are wee bound to obey our lawfull Superiour in all things I. In things necessarily good wee doe immediatly obey God men only by consequence If men command things euill we obey by tollerating what they inflict not by performing what they inioyne In the first they declare what God commands to be done in the latter what to be indured Wherefore it remaineth that things indifferent alone are the proper obiect of humane Commandements N. No action is indifferent but each thing commanded is an action Ergo. I. Your medium hath two faces like Ianus For an action is to be considered either simply and alone and so it is good as being a motion depending on the first mouer Or ioyntly with Circumstances and that in a double manner First in regard of the abilitie or possibilitie whilst it may be done Secondly in the act when it is performed Before it bee done it is indifferent but once breaking out into act it becommeth distinctly good or euill according to the Circumstances which determine the same Now an action commanded is supposed as not yet done whereupon the Hebrewes call the Imperatiue Moode the first future and so remaineth many times indifferent CHAP. III. Of Feasts and Fasts N. TO omit your winding Sophistry and sundry other arguments against Subscription not as feeble but expecting a fitter place From the person commanding I passe to the things enioyned Time Place Ornaments Time I diuide into Feasts and Fasts Against your Festiuals I argue thus Dayes made holy by men are lawlesse But such are your holidayes Ergo. I. Your Maior is refuted by k Ester 9. 21. 1 Mac. 4. 59. Iohn 10. 22. the Text. N. These Feasts were appointed by Propheticall inspiration therefore not meerely by men I. This answer is like that of Sympathie and antipathie or influence of Starres and the like refuges of ignorance How know you that Queene Hester was a Prophetesse or Mordecai a Prophet Would you trust the Story of the Maccabees if there you should finde it written that Iudas was a Prophet Is not this one of the Bookes that you would hisse out of the Church Nay may wee suppose that Iudas had he beene a Prophet would haue translated to Leui that dignitie which appertained to the Tribe of Iuda N. Dayes wherein God hath permitted man to labour may not by men be sanctified But such be your Church Holidayes Ergo. I. Your Maior is doubtfull and dangerous For if you meane that daies which are not consecrated by God may not by men to him be dedicated you will soone deface all the outward face of Religion whereof the most noble act hath and doth consist in dedicating Goods and Lands to the Church But if you intend that dayes because they are indifferent may not by authoritie bee restrained and determined then doe you bring into the Church an anarchie In the one you follow Swingfeldius in the other the Anabaptist against which rocke I perceiue you often rush N. I let slip your captious inferences and hasten to the third proofe Your holidayes are dedicated to creatures therefore vnlawfull My Antecedent thus appeares The Sabbath or Lords Day you call Sunday giuing it to the Sunne which as it is reproued by Papists So some haue Rhemists vpon Apoc. 1. 10. ignorantly turned it to the Sonne of God With the like vanitie you giue Munday to the Moone Tuesday to Tuisco or Mars Wednesday to Woden or Mercurie Thursday to thundring Iupiter Friday to Frico or Venus Saturday to Saturne which Deuils were adored by Pagans I. Wee doe no more dedicate our dayes to creatures by whose names wee tearme them then the Hebrewes did the moneth Abib to an eare of Corne for so doth the word import Further I maruell that you call the Lords Day the Sabbath for the men of your ranke were wont to stile this a Iewish name But there bee some opinions that bee as short liued as
with them Could hee also being the vncircumcised Nephew of a vsurping Tyrant an be tearmed an innocent Martyr I. First if the most part were innocent we draw the denomination from them euen as we name them the Psalmes of Dauid howsoeuer Psal 90. was made by Moses and Psal 137 was framed in the captiuitie of Babylon long after Dauid So wee say the Acts of the Apostles and yet in that booke are described actions of Stephen Silas Apollos and others which were not Apostles Secondly what if God would hereby shew that hee intended to haue Martyrs aswell of the Gentiles as of the Iewes yea and of infants as of men in yeares seeing Christ is the Sauiour of them both Thirdly may we not say that he which descended from Herod was in a sort a Martyr that is a witnesse of Gods power who made Herod to kill his owne Sonne for rage and yet deliuered Christ Is not the like said of infants vpon a farre lesse respect by Dauid N. From your Feasts I proceed to your Fasts Psalme 8. 2. and first I wonder at your Set Fasts I. Meane you by Set Fasts as you did by Set Prayers Haue not many Ministers of your opinion proclaimed and set sundry Solemne Fasts N. I meane your set yearely and weekly Fasts which should not be celebrated but when occasion Math. 9. 15. of sorrow is presented Now it may bee that some occasion of publique ioy may bee offered at the time of your Anniuersary Fast I. God appointed a yearely Fast in the tenth Leuit. 16. 29. 23. 29. day of the seuenth moneth and it might bee that some occasion of common ioy might then haue fallen out So that you must either acknowledge a dispensation of Gods precept for a time or that a particular and accidentary ioy could not preiudice a statarie and generall sorrow for sinne Whereas you pretend that Christ said his Disciples should not fast till after his departure only because they should not till then haue iust cause of mourning and Fasting it is vnsound Seeing that in the verse following he rendreth another reason namely for that they were weake like old garments and bottles and therefore vncapable of this new discipline of Fasting N. I might returne you this answer That the Fast mentioned in the Law was Ceremoniall But to grant that God might ordaine a yearely Fast How appeareth it that the same libertie is permitted to men I. Indeed to fast vpon the tenth day of the seuenth moneth was a ceremony Neuerthelesse a yearely set Fast could be no more Ceremoniall then to rest once in seuen dayes the tearmes are altered the quantitie remaineth Further that men may decree Set Fasts it appeares by the Iewes who fasted euery Yeare in remembrance of the siege of Ierusalem the winning See Iunius vpon Zach. 8. 9. Math. 19. 14. thereof and burning of the Temple as also the death of Gedalia The like is to be seene in the custome of the Pharisies and Iohn the Baptist Lastly some gather the same out of the story of Hester Hest 9. 31. N. Though Set Fasts might bee allowed yet your Lent is but an apish imitation of Chrst his Fast I. No more apish then the custome of the Israelites which they tooke vp in remembrance of Iacobs wrestling with the Angell Now the Genes 32. 32. custome of Lent is not only ciuill for the preseruation of Cattle and employment of the Sea and Riuers nor meerely morall to temper lust which riseth with the bloud in the Spring to inable men for deeds of Liberalitie but euen in a sort Religious not as a part but as a helpe of Religion first to kindle Prayer much dulled with plethorie of the bodie and multitude of businesse Secondly to helpe vs in the acknowledgement of our vnworthinesse of Gods creatures Thirdly to prepare vs for the solemne Communion at Easter Besides that we may fast and pray for the increase of grace is cleere by the example of Act 10. 30 31. Cornelius N. But what shall wee thinke of your Ember weekes I. They are preparatiues to the Ordination of Ministers Before which how laudable it is Acts 13 2. to fast is manifest by the separation of Barnabas and Paul N. What grounds haue your Fasts vpon Wednesdayes Fridayes and Saturdayes I. Friday was by all obserued because Christ died on that day Some kept Saturday for that Christ on that day lay in the graue which was to all Beleeuers a season of great heauinesse Others chose rather Wednesday for that vpon that day Iudas sold our Sauiour for money Besides these causes a conuenient vicissitude or exchange of Fasting with eating was iudged most requisite Which also was the cause of our Holiday Eues CHAP. IV. Of Place and Ornaments N. IT is now time that from Time we should remoue our Speech to Place and Ornaments inioyned in the act of Vniformitie Wherin although Chancels only bee mentioned yet Churches also seeme necessarily to be presupposed I. This is not vnlike Solon or Romulus who made no Lawes for Paricides because they hoped such villany would not be committed So it may bee our Law-giuers did not there mention Churches supposing no Christian would be of so leaden a heart and brasen a forehead as directly to wish the abolishment of Churches For what I pray you Are you one of them that would haue Churches turned into Doue-coates and Alehouses N. Though that were iustifiable by the example of Iehu yet it is sufficient for vs if they were 2. Kings 10. 27. demolished Neuerthelesse I speake not this of mine owne opinion but according to the intent of some of the Brethren The first reason is this Churches are abused to Idolatry therefore to bee destroyed I. By this argument Salomons Temple being abused by King Ahaz to manifest Idolatry should haue beene razed by King Ezekias Besides what need you accuse the Barrowists it is your owne argument Will you leaue the nest like the Rauen because the yong ones colour doth not in all points resemble you Is not this your owne reason The Crosse is abused to Idolatrie therefore to be abrogated As for the example of Iehu it moues vs not For neither was Iehu a good man neither is euerie action of a good man lawfull though lawfull yet not necessarie in regard of imitation N. We insist not vpon Iehu his fact Neither is our only or principall reason against the Crosse drawne from the abusing thereof to Idolatrie as shall appeare in due place Neither would wee simply therfore haue Churches defaced for that they are so abused but vpon more important causes Else should wee wish also the ruine of Vniuersities which notwithstanding we are contented should remaine if these things only were reformed First if humane Arts were lesse studied Secondly if Degrees in Schooles were interdicted Thirdly if Marriages in Colledges were permitted I. Arts may not properly be called humanc seeing they haue God for their Author
seemed to sauour of rebellion Furthermore thinke you that Daniel did worship the Image of Nabuchadnezzar because it is not written that he refused so to doe N. His constancie euen to and in the Lions den doth sufficiently disclaime this imputation so that we had rather take shelter of any coniecture then accuse so holy a Prophet and constant a confessour It may be Daniel was then employed in some forraine Prouince It may be though hee were present yet the Chaldeans would not for reuerence or durst not for feare accuse him or if they did yet were not heard in their suite If all these probabilities faile wee must erre on the safer side and not accuse vpon groundlesse and negatiue presumptions I. Neither may you accuse King Manasses vpon the like vncertainties For it may bee no memorable thing was done by him in this businesse It may be as the greatnesse of his sinne caused his repentance not to bee written in the Booke of the Kings so the same cause of the like silence is to be ascribed to this Authour N. Secondly I thus proue that this could not bee done after the returne of Manasses For had it beene so why did Holophernes so curiously demand of all his Captaines and by name of Achior the Ammonite what was the particular estate of that Countrey If it had beene so lately subdued and the King carried away in bonds this inquiry might seeme to haue beene superfluous I. It is written in the ſ 2. Chro. 33. 11 Chronicles that the Lord sent the Captaines of the King of Ashur who tooke Manasseh c. It is more then proble that Holophernes was not of this number of Captaines It may bee hee was then too young to be a Captaine It may be he was then busied in some other expedition and what though he had beene in that Countrey before might he not be ignorant of the Chorographie thereof and especially of their Genealogie You cannot be ignorant how wildly t Historiae lib. 5. Tacitus writes concerning the Iewes affirming that they came from Ida a mountaine of Creete and yet he had conferred both with Vespasian and Titus which ouerthrew Hierusalem N. From the Time wee passe to the Place or Scene of this Comedie which is said to be u Iudeth 4. 6. Bethulia whereas no such City can be found in the Land of Canaan I. Doe you beleeue that there was such a Citie in Iudea as Hierusalem N. Not only Scriptures but euen all Authors giue report of such a Citie I. And yet none can tell now where this Citie was scituated howsoeuer we heare fables of Bethara N. Howsoeuer this great desolation be at this present yet we may not so disgrace the vndoubted stories as to make any scruple of the being of such a Citie I. In like manner neither may you doubt of the being of Bethulia howsoeuer you find now no such place in the Mapp I beleeue it would trouble you to shew me all the Cities of Greece named by Thucidides in any mapp Againe the names of sundry Cities haue beene altred in processe of time as x Iohn 4. 5. Sychar for y Gen. 33. 18. Shechem some also haue beene built since the the time of Iosua when the suruey of Canaan was made as by name z 1. King 16. 24 Samaria N. What is this to Bethulia I. It might as well as Samaria haue been built since the time of Iosua But the truth is Bethulia is a name changed from a Ioshua 18. 19 21. See Iunius vpon Iudeth 4. 6 Beth-hoglah N. Thus farre of the circumstances now follow the actions of Iudeth concerning her behauiour either with God or Men. Of the first kinde we haue Fasting and Prayer Her fasting was Superstitious Forasmuch as she fasted euery day but the Eue of the Sabboth-day and of the sollemne b Judeth ● 6. Feast I. Were it Superstition as you intimate what is that to the Historian who no where doth applaud it Againe this action of hers may not onely bee defended but euen exceedingly praised First by this meanes shee did most exactly and sincerely obserue the Sabbath preparing her body by praecedent rest For they that approch to the Sabbath with tired bodies like the Romans to their first battell with Hanniball shall neuer beare away the victorie Most laudable therefore and religious is the ancient custome of our Countrey whereby Saturday was made Halfe-holiday N. But this is reckoned amongst the Iewish Superstitions I. If the Iewes make it part of Gods worship as they did the washing of their hands before c Marke 7. 4. meate How can it be preiudiciall to vs who make no such will-worship of it neither liue neere the Iewes to scandalize them herein Secondly shee did herein obserue the nature of fasting and feasting For as nature passeth not suddenly from one extreame to an other but layeth hold of the meane or middle terme So is it prepostrous abruptly so goe from fasting to feasting from mourning to reioycing For this cause shee fasted not vpon Friday being the day before the Iewish Sabbath I will make it plaine by this Diagramme On Thurs-day shee did fast that is shee did neither eate nor reioyce till euening On Friday shee did eate but not reioyce On Saturday which was the Sabbath then shee did feast that is eate with reioycing N. Why doe you then fast vpon Saturdayes and the Eues of Holidayes I. Vpon the first wee fast onely from certaine kinds namely from flesh vpon the second we do fast at euenings alone Neither of which can properly be tearmed religious fasts because the former doth not afflict the d Leuit 16. 19. bodie the latter doth afflict it in verie gentle manner N. To her fasting a cousin German was her prayer the impuritie whereof appeareth by two things First she commendeth the fact of her father e Iudeth 9. 2. Simeon which Iacob notwithstanding did f Gen. 49. 7. Compared with Chap. 34. 25. accurse I. But doth the Authour of the Booke commend her for so doing N. It is the office of a good Historian to declare his iudgement concerning those things whereof he makes g Cicero 〈◊〉 2. De Oratore relation I. He that told you that neuer read Genesis For if he had he would haue maruelled why Noahs drunkennesse Lot's incest Iacobs simonie are neither condemned nor defended And were this Canon of yours stristly obserued wee should banish Historians out of the World as the Turke doth Rhetoricians N. Yea but your Authour commended Iudeth as a vertuous woman I. So were they vertuous men whom I now named Nay were not Sara and Rahel vertuous women whose vices though they be related yee are not particularly reproued by Moses N. But yet her prayer is most vngodly blessing that which God hath cursed I. What thinke you of Balaam's going to King Balak N. It was an accursed act of auarice therefore the Lords wrath was kindled