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A70985 The reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of God called Quakers, that we are Jesuits, and Jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called April 1659, at the Bridge-house in Southwark, between VVilliam Cooper, VVilliam VVhitaker, Thomas VVoodsworth, VVieles, Watkins, Cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of Christ, and some of the people call'd Quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... W.S. Smith, William, d. 1673.; Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. Following letter containing the substance of the dispute. 1659 (1659) Wing S204A; ESTC R33983 31,593 40

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that it hath been a great crime among poor ignorant people to hear them called otherwise is stil especially in some places of this Nation Were they not the Popes Mass-Houses and places of their Idolatrous Worship And what Rule have you in the holy Scriptures for any to worship the true God in these Idolatrous Dens and Popish Houses and to call them such and such a Saints Church especially without alteration in form in name and esteem Did the children of Israel do so Did the primitive Christians do so VVhere is your example And who made George a Saint and Katherine and Olives Mary Overies and Giles and Gregory c. that your Churches are called by their Names are they not of the Popes making are you not ashamed that people should call those places Churches And then concerning your Manners and Worship in these places Is it not your manner before your Worship begins to ring Bells to call your Hearers your Brethren together and whom do you imitate and who learnt you this but the papists and why do you deny them in words and imitate them in practice And is it not your manner to get an hour-glass to preach and pray by and to sing by and have you not the chief seats in the Assemblies the popish Train hath so and are you not like them Do not they worship and preach and pray and sing by the hour then do you not agree with them Did ever the true Christians and Christian Ministers do so And why must you have a soft Cushion with silken Jobs at the corners to lean on to read your studied devised framed artificial Sermon or speech to the people And by what order was your Pulpit or high place hung with imbroydered Cloath and some other of your stalls lined with cloath when others want it to wear even of your own heap and sect and fold Who are you like in this Have you any such president in the holy Scriptures What and where is your Rule and Example If you must have a Cushion cut off the Jobs and if you must have a Pulpit take off your imbroydered cloaths and cloathe your brethren which are within your own Parish and of your own flesh and do not let them go up and down begging for clothes and food while your Pulpits and Stalls or other chief Seats are clothed imbroydered and laced What manner of Christianity and brotherly love is there among you towards one another And how come you by this manners among you that he that hath a Gold Ring and costly Apparel and is called a rich man must have a sumptuous seat in the principal place and others in vile rayment can scarce have a place to sit on but must stand afar off Where I say did you learn this manners Did you learn it of the Church of Christ or the Pope and his Church And is it not your manner and custom to respect persons places times dayes things Doth not the Heathen so and the Papists so Then who may we compare you with if not with those Did ever any of the primitive Christians do so Was it their manner to respect the person of him or her that had a Gold Ring or costly Apparel Or was it their manner to respect or cry up the Jewish Synagogues or Heathen Idolatrous Temple or any particular place or house whatsoever as the onely place of Worship and call it a Church Or did the Church of God in the dayes of Moses and the Prophets when the Lord had given them victory over the Heathen their Enemies did they I say preserve the Heathenish Idolatrous places of Worship as Altars Groves and Temples and teach the people to call them Churches Was it not as lawful for those places to be called a Church as 't is for these popish Dens builded with observation East and West with a picture of a Cock and a Cross upon it as the Papists devised and appointed to be called a Church Did not the Ministers of Christ gather people out of them and bear their testimony against them and all Temples made with hands Did not the Lord by his Hammer and battel-Ax of War break down burn and utterly destroy those places and Images and Groves set up and consecrated by the Idolaters Did not the Lord begin such a work in this Nation some years since And hath some Instruments proved like Jehu begun in zeal and ended in covetousness which is Idolatry and hath not regarded the Law of God withall their heart And shall that frustrate the work and purpose of the Lord Is he not raising others to accomplish his Work and fulfil his Decree against the Adulterous generation of what name or sect soever and down in esteem if not in form must the Popish Mass-Houses come and which is now the Priests Market place and called a Church and down must your Bells and Pulpit-embroydered cloathes and such like trumpery come which hath been set up in the time of Popery and since the cry was Who is able to make war with the Beast And then is it not your manner to respect times dayes and things Are you not like the Papists in this also And have you not learnt of the Pope Bishops Cardinals Jesuits Priests Fryers and Monks and Heathens how and what to call your times dayes months and quarters c. Have they not all Heathenish and Popish Names The holy Scriptures you are not ashamed to say is your Rule but in what one thing do you walk according to your pretended Rule unless you mean the Popish Heathenish Scriptures or Writings call them your holy Rule if you mean those you shall be believed because you are found walking thereafter but if you mean the Writings which holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit we know you are lyars and cannot believe you for they never learnt you to follow the manners and customs of the Heathen nor Papists as you do in respecting and naming or calling your Times Dayes Months and things the Scripture of Truth teacheth to call Days and Months after this manner First day second day third day fourth day fifth day sixth day seventh day First month second month third month and so to the twelfth month The Heathen and Papists and their Writings teacheth to call the first day of the Week Sunday or dies Solis the day of the Sun the second day Monday or dies Lun● the day of the Moon or the Moons day the third day Tuesday the fourth Wednesday the fifth Thursday sixth Fryday the seventh Saturday according to the Names of the 7. Planets wch the Heathen and Papists talk so much of And the first Month they call March the second April and so on to the eighth Month which is called October which signifieth the eighth Month November the ninth Month December the tenth Month from the Lattin words Octo Novem Decem eight nine and ten and the eleventh Month you call
January and the twelfth Month February Now do you not prefer the Heathenish and Popish Traditions Rules Customs Manners and Writings before and above what is delivered prescribed and taught in the Writings of the holy men of God so that it is come to pass by your so doing that if people are brought to call daies and months and times and places and persons according as those did who had the spirit of God which the Scriptures teacheth and witnesseth unto I say When people are brought to this they become a hissing and a wonder among you and are counted nice and frivolous and unmannerly and when we speak and write of hours dayes and months as they are recorded in the Scripture people cannot tell what we mean nor how to understand us nor when such a time hour day or month is but will rather mock and jeer at first hour first day first month c. and will have no such reckoning of times in their temporal civil or spiritual Accompts these are your Auditors your Disciples or Schollars as you have learnt you teach as you the Priests are so are the people imitators of the Papists and Heathen in this as well as other things and the Christians life words manners and behaviour you are out of and strangers to and may we not justly with the Heathen and Papists compare you whose example you follow And then concerning the manner of your publike Divine Worship as you call it have you not this manner and custom as the first part of your Worship to sing David's Psalms in rime and meeter divised or turned thereinto by Poets or Musicianers as Thomas Sternhold and John Hopkins and others with apt Notes to sing them withall before your prayer and after your Prayer before your Sermon and after your Sermon of all the people together Is not this your own invention Was there any such manner of singing in the Church of Christ You say Let us sing to the praise and glory of God and you keep an Officer to read the Psalm to people which are some drunkards some covetous some proud some defrauders of their Brethren dissemblers double dealers some Adulterers and unclean persons some jesters and idle talkers some light and vain wild and wanton some scornful high-minded and mockers some disobedient to Parents unthankful and unholy and of rude unchristian behaviour Of such consisteth your Church and are not the Steeplehouse-singers such And can such persons sing to the praise and glory of God Or are they in a state and condition fit to sing at all Doth not weeping and howling mourning sorrow and lamentation and wo from the dreadful Lord God of Heaven and of Earth belong to such singers Singing with Grace in the heart unto the Lord we own but singing with wickedness with pride and covetousness in the heart we utterly deny Singing with the Spirit and with understanding we own but your singing by Letter with Musical Notes and Tunes customarily ignorantly without understanding we wholly disown and bear our testimony against it as abomination in the sight of the Lord and it was never ordained nor appointed in nor by the true Church but it hath been ordained and appointed by the false Church the Whore and her Merchants in the dark night of Apostacy since the dayes of the Apostles and since the true Church fled in to the Wilderness And is not this singing of David's Prayers Mournings Sighings Complainings and Cryes unto the Lord and his Praises Rejoicings and magnifying the Lord and such like conditions as David was in I say Is not your singing of these things like the Papists singing have you any more rule in the Scripture for your singing then the Papists have for their singing And hath it not been one of the Whores later invention and addition to your Worship even about the time of Queen Elizabeths reign in this Nation but the same pure eternal light which appeared in the hearts of some about the beginning of our English Wars and manifested much of the Popish Trumpery which was then in being of which quiristers and singing-boys in white Surplices was one I say the same pure eternal light hath manifested your singing and noise to be as abominable in the ears of the Lord as theirs and to be denyed and witnessed against for you have no more rule in the Scripture for your singing David's Prayers then the quiresters and singers then had to sing the Prayer which Christ taught his Disciples which they called Pater Noster Which of all you Mass-house Singers are or ever were what you sing as when you sing O Lord I am no● puft in mind and that your eys are not scornful Are you not of such a proud and hard heart and puft up mind and scornful eyes many of you that you will scarce look upon nor walk with nor relieve those that are poor though they be of your own Church Then do you not sing a lye in this And is that to the praise and glory of God Surely you dare not say that God is glorified with a noise of lyes not that David's Psalms are lyes but you being not in the same state condition and life that David was in they are lyes in your mouths David said Mine eys gush out with Rivers of water because they keep not thy law I am afflicted ready to dye from my youth up while I suffer thy terrors I am d●stracted I am like a Bottle in the smoak I am like an Owle in the desert I am like a Pellican in the Wilderness I am like a Sparrow alone upon the house top all my friends and acquaintance hath forsaken me This David said and you sing these words ignorantly customarily never witnessing the same state condition so they are lyes in your mouths and God is not glorified but dishonored by you in this part of your Worship and your singing and the Papists and quiristers and Surplice-boys singing is abomination alike in the sight of the Lord and in the sight of his servants who are redeemed from amongst you and from under the great Whore which sits upon the Waters but the Lord our God is taking her seat from under her and into the pit she with her golden Cup full of Sorceries Witchcrafts and Fornications shall fall and none shall be able to deliver her neither can she save her self nor those that hath been and still are made drunk with her Sorceries and deceiveable ways of unrighteousness of which this trick craft and art of singing is one James said Is any merry let him sing Psalms He wrote these words to Saints but hear what he wrote to such as you Cleanse your hands ye sinners and purifie your hearts ye double-minded be afflicted and mourn and weep let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy into heaviness Such as these hath no cause to be merry who are sinners whose hands are uncleansed and whose hearts are unpurified and whose minds are double And
mother-Church nor in comparing you with the false Prophets idle shepbeards of Israel and the deceivers and false teachers which crept in in the days of the Apostles which since hath overspread the Nations for if ever there were a company of Priests that were like a troop of robbers and that murthered with consent and that preached for hire and divined for money and that sought their gain from their quarter sed themselves with the fat and cloathed themselves with the wool and that cared not naturally for the flock but for the fleece and that taught for filthy lucre and that said Thus saith the Lord when the Lords voice they never heard and that had stolen then Neighbours words and that run before they were sent and that did not profit the people at all I say if ever there was such Priests and Teachers as certainly there was in the Prophets days and Apostles days such assuredly in thee oh England doth exceedingly abouned as by the fruits in every Conntry City Town and Village most evidently appeareth in which wickedness is grown so exceeding high and the envy offering of Cain in priests people is so strong and the Jewish blind zeal ' so fierce and the cry of the rude multitude Away with him Away with him so loud loud and many Pilates through importunity of the priests and cry of the multitude so ready to deliver the innocent into the hands of such who loves Barrabas the murtherer better then he that came to save mens lives and not to destroy them and better then his Ministers whole weapons were never carnal as Tucks Rapiers Staves and Canes which hath been the weapons of thirty English priests already recorded within this seven or eight years who have not onely incensed and stirred up the Magistrates and people to persecute but hath shed blood beat and bruised many themselves one of which number was and is still for ought I know priest Griffin of Bread street in London who st●uck one Robert Ingram sorely over the head with a Kane many blows and by means of such priests the Prophet Isaiah call'd greedy dumb dogs and that prepared war against such as could not put into their mouths hath about two thousand of the the people of God suffered within this seven or eight years twenty six hath been murthered imprisoned till death and some hundreds suffered long imprisonments in filthy unwholsome places and cruel inhumane usage therein by wicked bloody Goalers Thieves Murtherers and Felons among which they have been cast some others hath been robbed and spoiled of their goods for tythes to the value of some thousands of pounds sometimes five six seven or eight times the value of what was demanded by the hi●eling Priest and Impropriator to the ruine and destroying of many families widows and fatherless as to the outward in taking away their wearing cloath's bedding pots dishes and kettles sometimes all was too little seizing sometimes 100 l. worth of goods for one years tythes valued at six pounds and body also imprison●● Oh horrible Minist●y a worse was never in any generation I do believe especially in times wherein the cry of Reformation hath been so loud and liberty of conscience pretended Oh! how is it that people are so blind and sottish as to cou●● greedy Hirelings who are like to leave their Names upon record as a stink and a wand●● to the next generation Christian Ministers Christian Ministers were no sigh●ers nor strikers nor covetous nor greedy of silthy lucre nor demanders of Tythes from the people nor suers at law for the Tythes if they were you priests and people produce the chapter and verse that must prove it you have proved your selves such and we can ●●sily prove and have proved that you are not like the Ministers of Christ for the Ministers of Christ in the primitive church bore their testimony against Tythes which God commanded to be paid to the first priesthood and many Saints Martyrs and Ministers of Christ of later times mentioned in Fox's Histories called The Book of Martyrs have or did faithfully in their measure bear their testimony unto death against the Tythes which the Pope and his Train had invented and set up since the Apostles days which at this day yet stands as a main prop and upholder of a proud high minded self-seeking covetous ignorant Popish Clergy here in England against which and whom we also bear our testimony which hath already been sealed with much blood within these few years And if there be any honest tender hearted men amongst the Priests which really desires and endeavours to have a conscience void of offence towards God and towards 〈◊〉 let such come out from amongst them and bear their testimony against them that hath committed such horrible things in the Land and utterly deny them and disown them else the best of them will be but as a B●yar and the most upright as a Thorn-Hedge and a cons●ne to wickedness will be found in their hearts in the day of the Lord therefore accept the let no people count some Priests better then other Priests for there is little difference between those that murther and those that consent to murther those that rob and those ●hat consent to robbery those that persecute and those that consent to persecution and their reward will be alike at that day which God hath appointed to judge the Secrets of all 〈◊〉 by the Man Christ Jesus W. S. The End * That sign of long Reig * I have seen such