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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
country_n	gentleman_n	letter_n	page_n	1,386	5	11.4896	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A60758	Some additional remarks on the late book of the Reverend Dean of St. Pauls by a conformable clergy-man.	Conformable clergy-man.	1681 (1681)	Wing S4471; ESTC R37573	30,505	38

Institution from the Diocesan I answer 't is in vain to dispute against sense and experience and men will never believe that cannot be done which they see done before their eyes and the Bishops are cheated by Certificates and Testimonials for there are few men so bad that cannot find others as bad as themselves to vouch for them And if this liberty were granted to the people I am not apprehensive of those evil consequences that the Dr. seems to fear who tells us Where a Parish is divided in their opinions about Religion as we know too many are at this day all the several parties Anabaptists Quakers yea and Papists as well as others will put in for a share in what concerns their souls and consequently chuse a Pastor each party to themselves and the Incumbent that is legally intitled to the profits of the Living may possess them and the people may follow the conduct of other Guides even such as themselves have chosen For I would propose that this Liberty might be legally granted to the people and that their consent and dissent should be limited by just Rules and upon equitable Reasons and that our Superiors might superintend them in the exercise of it and see that they do not abuse it For surely there is some difference between the use of Power Liberty and Priviledg and the abuse of it and one may be restrained without taking away the other The abuse of the peoples liberty in the choice of a Quaker or Socinian or a Papist for their Teacher may be restrained without depriving them of the liberty of refusing a wicked scandalous ignorant wretch or chusing an honest pious learned and sober man Cannot the Learned Dr. restrain his Daughter from chusing a prophane Sensualist whose God is his belly and hath nothing brave or generous in his soul or her Husband without depriving her of the liverty of chusing a● honest worthy brave and virtuous man And this I think is all that Mr. B. desires at least this would satisfie him and I know not why the Learned Dr. represents this opinion or desire of Mr. B. in so monstrous and odious a manner unless it be to make him an offence to Noblemen Gentlemen Universities and all such as have right of Patronage belonging to them Page 371. The Author of the Letter out of the Countrey says the Dr. lays the foundation of the Separation upon the force of scruples mighty scruples scruples of a long standing and of a large extent scruples that there is no hopes to remove without some very overpowering impressions on mens minds To which the Dr. replies I am so much of another mind that I think a little impartiality and due consideration would do the business I cannot be so uncharitable as to believe that none of the Dissenters do impartially consider the things in controversie between them and the Church of England and which are the grounds of the present Separation when they do solemnly profess the contrary with appeals to God who searcheth the hearts and trieth the reins and 't is severe to give them the lye in such a case where 't is certain we are no competent or capable judges But suppose they at least some of them should not impartially consider and 't is no easie matter either for Consenters or Dissenters to lay aside all partiality what will be inferred from thence Must they not be endured upon the earth Are they insufferable in the Land If all were banished imprisoned or hanged that are guilty of no greater sins than a little partiality in consideration there would be few Conformists or Nonconformists left in this Nation But peradventure it may be no great fault to be partial in the consideration of other things when to be partial in considering the grounds and reasons of the present Separation is an unpardonable sin and not to be forgiven in this world whatever it may be in the world to come Though the Dr. seems to think it a thing of no great difficulty to cure mens scruples in the words above-mentioned and in some others in the following page yet he speaks to a contrary sense p. 48. of his Preface where he tells us of the almost invincible ignorance of some weaker people and the uncurable biass of some mens minds Is the almost invincible ignorance of weak people easily removed yes faith the Dr. Honest men may be cured of their errors and mistakes But how is it to be done why by bringing them to a better temper and to more judgment p. 372. I thought so but how shall we do that Are the almost invincibly ignorant made judicious upon easie endeavours And are those that have incurable byasses upon their minds brought to a better temper of mind with a wet finger I know not what the Drs. experience is but I am sure 't is otherwise in mine and in many others I find it impossible to remove the ignorance and take off the prejudices and byasses of some peoples minds humanely speaking as the phrase now is and the reason is obvious I can bring them light but I cannot give them eyes I can propound reason and evidence sufficient as I think to remove their fears scruples and prejudices but I cannot give them understandings to apprehend and perceive the cogency weight and sufficiency thereof Mens understandings are of as many differing degrees and sizes as their faces are of differing shapes and features and what one man can perceive and understand another cannot do One man can see the smallest needles or hairs another cannot see them though it were to save his life Besides there are peculiarities in the understandings of men how they came there I will neither enquire nor determine but that there are such things cannot be denied The Doctrine of Calvin in the five points to some men seems utterly irrational and contrary to the common sentiments of mankind and all that they read and hear for the alteration of their apprehensions makes no impression or change upon them Others there are that have the same apprehensions of the Doctrine of Arminius in those points and the like I might say of many other Controversies in Religion Mens minds seem inclined to embrace one part of the Controversie by a peculiarity of frame temper and disposition and in this case 't is a mighty difficulty to prevail with such men to alter their apprehensions if not impossible Which things being premised and certain I think not those words of Mr. B. so severe as the Dr. seems to imagine them viz. That he that thinks his own or others Reasonings will ever change all the truly honest Christians in the Land as to the unlawfulness of the things imposed knoweth so little of matters or of men or of conscience that he is unmeet to be a Bishop or Priest for is not he fit for that Office or those Employments that doth not know that the measures and degrees of mens understandings are almost infinite and that they

will never agree unless it be in a few plain great and necessary things and that in multitudes of lesser things they will dissert for ever and that in this diversity of understandings 't is impossible it should be otherwise and that under this diversity of apprehensions there will be some diversity of practises too where men fear God and have a value for their own Consciences and the suggestions thereof is he fit to bear the Office of a Bishop or a Priest that is ignorant of these things surely he is very little acquainted in the great variety and imperfections of humane minds that thinks that all Christians will ever be of one mind in many lesser things and he is as little acquainted with the Consciences of men that thinks honest Christians will be of the same practice where their judgments are so much divided I will conclude this Paragraph with the following Story which will serve to evince the incurableness of some peoples jealousies and scruples and I 'le do it in the words of the person that sent it to me I know a Gentlewoman whose Parents were of the Congregational persuasion and such was her education n●vertheless after her marriage her husband being conformable she accompanied him to the publick worship of God and this she did for some years but all this time her scruples and her fears and the jealousies of her Conscience did so plague and torment her that she had little or no comfort in her life yea he● bodily health was very much weakned and impaired by the perturbations of her mind this having been her condition for some years at length she forsook the publick and established worship betook her self to a Congregational Church and now lives in peace and tollerable heath The Gentlewoman I do believe is truly pious and conscientious and doth avow that could she be satisfied of the lawfulness of attending on the publick way of worship she would do it with all her heart Her reason and arguments may be easily answered and she may be silenced and one would think her judgment satisfied but her scruples return again like a Torrent and she cannot resist them and in plain English are incurable without some very great and transforming impressions from above And this is no rare or single case but what often occurs as those men know that converse with the consciences of Christians The Dr. returns again to the Author of the Letter out of the Countrey pag. 376. and thus he speaks concerning him The main force of what he saith i.e. the Author of that Letter lyes in this that those that cannot conquer thier scruples as to Communion with our Church must either return to the state of Paganism or set up new Churches by joining with the ejected Ministers To which the Dr. replies This is new Doctrine and never heard of in the days of the old Puritans for they supposed men obliged to continue in the communion of this Church although there were some things they scrupled and could not conquer those scruples and this they supposed to be far enough from Paganism The old Puritans did suppose that those that scrupled Ministerial communion were obliged to continue as Lay-men in the communion of this Church But what is this to those that scruple Lay-commuion which is the case of many now in England And what shall these people do they must either communicate against their Consciences or joyn with the ejected Ministers or live as Pagans and which it is the Dr. will advise them to I cannot tell but 't is possible we may know hereafter If he should say they must put off their scruples and communicate with the license and approbation of their consciences I say so too 'T is their duty to endeavour it but what if after all the endeavours they can use they cannot disentangle their minds from them what shall they do then I beseech the Learned Dr. to give some directions to these scrupulous persons in this case In the same Page the Dr. desires to know whether as often as men do scruple joyning with others their separation be lawful And I do desire to know whether all unlawful separation be intollerable and whether all Schismaticks that are truly so must be imprisoned ruined and undone or sent to Cancasus and the Caspian Mountains When the Dr. hath answered this enquiry peradventure he may receive and Answer to the other if he cannot answer it himself The D. adds in the same and the following Page If it be lawful to separate as often as men scruple the lawfulness of joyning in communion with out Church 't is in vain to talk of any setled Constitution whether Episcopal Presbyterian or Independent for this Principle overthrows them all To which I answer I do not think it lawful to separate as often as men scruple joyning in communion yet I do believe it lawful to tolerate some unlawful separations yea and necessary too but let no unnecessary occasions of scruple and separation be given Let no separations for the sake of undoubted truths and the great essentials of Faith and Godliness be allowed Let the Congregations in the Nation be furnished with pious and holy Ministers and some discipline exercised in them and 't will be found that the number of Separatists will not be great and a stop will be put to the progress and encrease of them and a few years will reduce them almost to none for if the Causes of Separation be looked into they will be found to be the imposing and requiring of unnecessary and doubtful things ignorant and scandalous Preachers and undisciplined Churches Whether these things will justifie it I will not say but that they are the main Causes of it cannot be denied by any considering man And if these be not removed Separation will be continued unless the Popish method of Cure be undertaken viz. Fire and Faggot Racks and Tortures Confiscations and Punishments which certainly are Remedies that were never taught by Christ Jesus the Lover and Saviour of mankind but by the Devil the great enemy hater and destroyer of them And let me add further that I see no reason to infer that toleration of Separation upon tolerable scruples will destroy all Government in the Church for I think there was a Government in the Church when the Novatians were tolerated both at Rome and Constantinople for some hundreds of years as the Doctor very well knows and I hope we have a Government in the Nation though some men transgress the established Laws thereof yea and are permitted so to do with impunity Yet I would distinguish between Separation in the bud and blossome and Separation ripe and grown as 't is with us in England and I would say that some things may be done and some severities used to crush and prevent the encrease of it when budding which may not be done to extinguish and root it out when it s grown and encreased and the number of those that separate is very great and numerous Some few single Schismaticks not that are made such by unnecessary Impositions but such as make themselves such by unreasonable and unwarrantable scruples and objections may after the use of admonition teaching and instruction and a patient waiting for the success of them be treated with some rigor and moderate harshness But thousands and ten thousands are too many either to be laid in Gaols or sent to the barren deserts of Arabia or other Countreys at lesser distance from us Page 378. The Learned Dr. wonders that none of those who have undertaken to defend the cause of Separation have taken any care to put stop to it or to let us know where we may fix and see an end of it which scruples are to be allowed and what not and whether it be lawful to separate as long as men can go on in scruples and say they cannot conquer them Mr. B I suppose is one of them which the Doctor believes hath undertaken to defend the cause of Separation and I wonder the Doctor should not observe that he hath taken care to put a stop to it and let us know what scruples are to be allowed and what not Hath he not said over and over even to times without number That a difference is to be made betwixt tolerable and intolerable scruples and errors betwixt scruples that may be defended by probable reasons and such as have nothing to be pleaded on their behalf but apparent and obvious falshoods betwixt scruples about unnecessary and disputable things and such as are about necessary and undoubted truths and so owned and confessed by all Christians and in saying this he hath told us what scruples are to be allowed and what not and where to put a stop to Separation 'T is true these are but general rules to direct us by in judging of allowable and unallowable errors and scruples and where and when to put a stop to Separations but the application of them to particular cases is not difficult and since errors and scruples are infinite I hope the Dr. will not nor doth not expect that Mr. Baxter should name all particularly that are tolerable and intolerable this were to set him and Employment that might last to the worlds end if he could live so long and would prevent his writing of Books to the offence of his Conformable brethren but I think would please many of them very well who are willing to be rid of him and his Books But Sir I have in obedience to your commands put my Sickle too far into other mens Harvests and therefore will here put a period to my Remarks Besides I hear Mr. B. hath replied to the Learned Dr. and that his Book is abroad in the world though I have not seen it as yet living as you know at a great distance and in a small Village that hath little commerce wit London I know you will pardon all the faults and imperfections of these hasty Lines and when you have read them do what you please with them I am SIR Your very true Friend and Servant