with gaine and other vanities are polluted whose ignorance maketh them vncapable of ecclesiastical function Those elders which Ambrose speaketh of assisted the bishop with coūsell these are not counsellers but controllers gouerners with voyces equall to the bishop His elders were in cathedrall churches onely these are in euery 3 So our platformers would haue it albeit the Geneuians practise be farre diuers paltry village Those were men learned these are ignorant marchants artificers and clownes for the most part Nothing can be more repugnant thē Ambrose and the Disciplinarians Ambrose 4 Lib. 8. cp 64. sheweth that excommunication belonged to bishops these put the keyes into the hands of strange elders yet very yong in Gods church good for nothing but to oppresse the ministerie and learning such elders as Ambrose speaketh of were deriued from the Iewes but such Aldermen as these haue deuised the Iewes had none Ambrose his elders were not temporary nor all of counsell these are Ambrose complayneth that the Bishop and his Clerkes did not liue in common as in time 5 Inter Can. Syluestri past yet such was the griedinesse of bishops that it was necessary to diuide the church goods and such was the negligence of priests that they were sent out of cities to dwell in the countrey which now is obserued and that which Ambrose complayned of restored viz. that certaine of the chiefe of the ministery should be assistant to the bishop what then would these fellowes haue more would they haue all the ministers of a diocesse to liue in one citie and to ioyne in hearing of all matters This would be a beginning of singular non residence cause of great trouble cōfusion not a meanes to do iustice but to hinder iustice After Ambrose succeedeth Hierome a mā most vnfit to speak for the new eldership for if that be true which he saith that bishops elders in the primitiue church were all one then away goe the aldermen that are no bishops which reason did so sticke to Bezaes fingers 1 De presbyter aduers Erast Epist ad Heliod disputing against Erastus for the eldership that hee could no way lay it downe handsomely without the ruine of his cause Againe if in Hieroms time all Clerkes did feede with the worde much more did priests Neither doeth it make for these mens cause that he saith that as the Iewes so the Christians had a Counsell in euery cathedrall church for that is his meaning for that was of ministers and is obserued in our cathedrall churches and vtterly ouerthroweth the presumption of these vnlearned aldermen that with vnwashen feete tread in the sanctuary with filthy hands leaden heads handle matters of religiō faith churchgouernment wtout colour or title taking the keyes out of the successors of the apostles hands Possidonius 2 In vit August Socrates albeit they are said to speake of the consistorie and that plainely 3 Lib. 5. cap. 21. yet cleerely ouerthrowe the same for neither of them euer vnderstoode or heard of any temporary lay elders such as are lately raised from the dunghill to the highest tribunall of the church Nor do they speake of others then such as liued in cōmunity with the bishops in their cathedrall churches such as we haue in our church of which also the canon 4 Dist 95. c. ecce 15. q. 7. si quid law maketh mētion declaring their office to consist in preaching administring the sacraments so that I cannot but wonder with what visage that libeller could alleadge the colledges of ministers of the worde assistant to bishops in their Cathedrall churches to proue Elderships in euery village assistant to euery minister and consisting of prophane and vnlearned men and neither hauing salary nor salt of discretion nor continuance as the other had Of these allegations therefore this conclusion may bee drawen out that in counsels Fathers and antiquitie there is not any argument or coniecture found of all that Discipline which these newfangled platformers desire Nay there is not any proofe for the same in the new writers onely I except the Geneuians and their followers that haue shamefully applyed scriptures to their Disciplinarian dreames The churches of Saxony Wittenberg Nuremberg Strausborgh Ausburg Frankeforde Hamborgh and other places of Germany the county Palatine except likewise the churches of Zuricke Berne Basill other true christian churches in Zuitzerland Denmarke Sueueland Pomerany Poland and Hungary and all the learned men that gouerned those churches both in their doctrine and practise are against the discipline of the new Consistories Moreouer those that speake for the Consistories are not all of one opinion In the state of Geneua there is but one cōsistory there are not many that agree about the proofe parts office or lawes of it In Geneua they doe not allow their consistory power to make or disanull lawes In Fraunce they giue that power to synodes The consistoriall discipline in France was at first receiued of a fewe and that not for euidence of Scripture or proofe or reason but by suffrages of the Nobilitie and Gentry whereof some too well liked the sacrilegious doctrine and by the earnest labour of Beza desirous to conforme other churches to that of Geneua most of the learned ministers dissenting from him and disallowing his absurde discipline and not yeelding before the Princes to whome they serued constrayned them What reason then hath any to pleade for the consistoriall gouernment which is vnknowen to all antiquite and repugnant to Apostolicall practise and the most florishing Churches in Europe and was receiued with grudge of learned men and onely resteth vpon the conceite of Caluin Beza Daneau and some halfe score of blind writers as Iohn Baptista that ignorant Italian and Sneccan and Bertrand de Loques and Oleuian and Robert Stephen a better Printer then diuine and Perot and de Plurre and I knowe not whom neither of marke nor qualitie especially seeing so many pregnant reasons are brought against the translation of it from the Iewes and establishment of it among Christians as none haue answered and this libeller thinketh it most wisedome to passe ouer with silence If this be a good argument that Daneau Bertrand de Loques Bastingius Iunius Piscator Oleuian Caluin Beza Sneccan and Iohn Baptista d'Aureli thinke so how good will this reason be that all the fathers of all ages haue bene of a contrary iudgement and diuers godly Martyrs and learned men in our Church and other reformed Churches in Germany Zuitzerland Denmarke induced with better reasons haue thought otherwise Besides all this it shall appeare that those authors which the libeller alledgeth neuer beleeued that eyther in time past there was a consistorie of partie coluored Aldermen like to that this libeller desireth or that such a one now ought to be placed in euery Church That Zuinglius shoul de teach or beleeue that Christ did institute such Aldermen
nor dispraised for euill doing neither is there any memoriall of their doings nor recorde of their names nor note of their succession nor being in the whole scriptures Nay not so much as the Rabbines or the histories of Philo or Iosep make any mention either of their names life acts death or any thing cōcerning thē which were wondrous strange if any such extrauagant cōmanders had bene for howsoeuer it fareth with others the acts of gouernours cannot lie hidden To be short nothing can be more absurd then that such odde companions as these aldermen are shoulde controll Princes and iudge of religion being most of them without the function of priesthoode or knowledge of diuinitie or good letters The same reasons may also perswade vs that there were no such church gouernours in the Apostles times or after There appeareth first no institution of them Secondly no lawes wherby they are to gouerne Thirdly no act of theirs Fourthly no commendation or reproofe of their persons or doings Fiftly their authoritie was inuested in the Apostles by our Sauiour to whom also the keyes were giuen and not to these false aldermen that come in rather like burners of houses then gouernours of Churches with counterfeite keyes Sixtly in the whole storie of the Acts of the Apostles there is not the least suspicion of them neyther doe they stand vpon any thing but false interpretations of 3 or 4 places of scripture Nor to conclude can any thing be more vnlikely then that our Sauiour Christ Iesus the wisedome of God hauing giuen the keyes of Iurisdiction and knowledge to his Apostles and their successors would take the same from them and hang them at the elbowes of men without authoritie knowledge or discretion such as the Church Aldermen are for the most part In the times succeeding next to the Apostles all histories counsels fathers giue witnesse to the gouernement by bishops in time of persecution and after the time of persecution by bishops vnder the soueraigne direction of Christian Princes Neyther for 1540 yeeres did euer this foolish conceit come in any mens heads that merchantes men of occupation musterd sellers and tinkers were men sufficient for the gouernement of Churches Then which nothing can be deuised more absurd nor inconuenient It is the high way to all heresies for when matters be decided by voyces of men that neuer knewe Scriptures Fathers nor tongues how is it possible that they should teach trueth or continue in trueth or meete with errours this is the principall cause of the multitude of heresies in the lowe Countries The same also would be a Seminarie for schisme for when all parishes and ministers and Consistories haue equall iurisdiction as these fellowes teach that they ought to haue who shall remedie contentions that fall out the synode a mere conceite for what neede they to care for the synode or the censures thereof that by no lawe are subiect to synodes All learning would decay for who should neede to studie if a Taylor comming warme from the shopboard be a man fit to gouerne the church or who can haue any courage to studie where this sacrilegious discipline that hath made hauock of all the reuenues of the church is placed and the stipends that are allotted to learded men shall bee arbitrary and may bee taken away at the discretion of a sort of ignorant marmarchants clownes and men of occupation Fourthly where there is no lawe prescribed how can the Iudges bee kept in temper euen now notwithstanding all lawes and penalties that may be deuised partialitie fauour hatred and other affectons beare sway How much would they sway more if the Consistorie should come in place which is ruled onely by will and pluralitie of voyces and not restrayned but by pretence of God worde which euery man vseth to construe to his owne profit Downe would the princes reuenues fall and the Realme be left without meanes of defence and made vnable to resist the enemie If any man thinke that the spoile of the church should come to the princes hands he abuseth himselfe The spoyles of other places do teach vs what would fall out yea our owne experience may herein sufficiently instruct vs. For albeit in the ouerthrow of Abbeys the Prince had some share yet are not now the Princes of this land able to mainteine that force that in time past they were when great nōbers of both horsemen footmen were maintained at the charge of religious houses the reuenues whereof now are wholy imployed yet scarce able percase to buy some one meane gentlewoman a verdugal so leudly are they spent so great is the pride waste of men the reason of it is this that what they spent thē in mainteining of men the same is now spent in veluets silkes glittering coates Suppose then that the church goods should come to spoyle do you thinke they would be better spent it should seeme no for all is now spent in surfet excesse that in time past was spent in mainteining of men And I knowe where in certaine manors taken from bishops thousands of men were mainteined the reuenues of all which do not now buy peticoates for my mistres the owners wife and her maydens not a man of al their tenāts scarce able to do her Maiestie seruice at his owne charge they are so fined skinned All those that liue by learning should be turned along to picke sallets whereby Poperie hauing no resistance would finde easie entrance and those that are best able being discouraged for want of meanes make least resistance Vnto all these points the Libeller saith but litle only vpon one point he stādeth that the hot pursuers of their pretended reformation haue some inducemēts to thinke that there hath bene in the world some such consistory as he imagineth but where or when he knoweth no certaintie nay he knoweth not what maner of beast the same is His proofes they be so weake that I marueile hee was not ashamed to make muster of them scriptures he bringeth none Aworld to see how those that in oppugning our state were so copious in allegations of scriptures to mainteine their Aldermen and Discipline doe not so much as endeuour to bring any scripture or by reason drawen thence to confirme their cause The Fathers as him selfe confesseth speake obscurely his chiefe helpe is in Caluin Iunius Beza Dancau yea and such obscure compagnions as Bertrand de loques Bastinge Charpentier du Pleurre Golart Iacomot Pollan and a rable of others not worth the naming But if the consent of halfe a score base writers and of bad alloy be so forcible as to perswade the good liking of the consistorie what reason haue wee to stand in defence of our gouernment by bishops which hath the consent of so many generall counsels so many Fathers so many ages yea so many learned men also of our time as these bee and as well learned and godly as the other diuers of whose pietie hath passed
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of
wee must tell him that where hee talketh of fiue hundred traytors that maintaine the present ecclesiasticall gouernement hee is out of reason and account and doeth nothing but rayle as well beseemeth his libelling humour The state and iurisdiction of bishops nowe in England dependeth externally on the Prince to him they are subiect and from him they receiue lawe finally they thinke it vnlawfull to rebell against him condemning all rebellious practises to pull downe his authoritie and to bring them vnder but the proud and insolent Consistory claymeth power aboue princes and rendreth in Ecclesiasticall matters account to none but God as they professe the same acknowledgeth it felse subiect to none and prescribeth lawes to Princes yea teacheth and putteth in practise rebellion against them and therefore when there is speach of loyaltie and obedience let the Libeller henceforth take heede how he compareth the most factious and suspicious gouernment to Princes that euer was to our ecclesiasticall gouernours which in their doctrine and life cannot bee noted of any disloyaltie And finally let him holde his peace and thanke God for the princes clemencie For it is not the innocencie of his Clients nor the eloquence of the aduocate that can cleare the disciplinarians from faction In such bad causes repentance and submission is best defence the next is silence And therefore wisely did he passe ouer that offence for which Iohn Vdall was conuicted and condemned Onely this fault hee committeth herein that forgetting howe before hee had promised to answere for him now hee leaueth him to answere for himselfe and like a man that had lost both memorie and wit runneth out into an idle discourse of othes Ex Officio and an inuectiue against Iudges and furiously rayling at the State calleth such as speake in defence of it Traitors and Rebels To terrifie the Iudges hee cyteth certaine Textes of scriptures ill fitting his purpose For neither as hee sayeth are his consortes Saintes nor doe they suffer for holinesse nor are they put to death howsoeuer they deserue it That sentence of 1 Iames 1. Iames rather belongeth to them If any man deemeth himselfe to be religious and refaineth not his tongue but seduceth his hart his religion is in vayne or that rather Woe bee to 2 Matth. 23. you Scribes and Pharises ye hypocrites yee are like to whited sepulchres faire without and within full of bones of dead men and all filthinesse And albeit Iohn Vdall had the name vnwothy to be a Preacher yet neuer any worse deserued it being euery way vnsufficient nor tooke a more factious course This fellowe braggeth hee was no murtherer yet if hee had proceeded further I knowe what woulde haue followed So arrogant hee is that hee imagineth all fooles but such as like his fancies But if the 3 Pag. 49. Iudges haue so little skill in condemning such a Minister as Iohn Vdall why doth not this great Clarke shewe it this is impudencie to condemne such reuerend learned men of ignorance and to shewe no reason Besides this in lawe there ought to be no respect of persons Howe then can there bee such difference betwixt ministers and others if ministers offend as well as others Either this man meaneth to challenge immunitie or els hee meaneth if euer he bee a Iudge to respect persons Some haue painted Iustice blinde but this man woulde haue them iudge with spectacles His accusation against such as speake in defence of the state will neuer be prooued he racketh and teareth their sayings as a man lying without conscience and shame yet will they not reach to his purpose Concerning master Dalton whom he accuseth as the Bishops factor it is an easie matter to answere hee hath more honestie learning and lawe then is to be found in all the Puritanes distempered braynes The cause he defended was not the Bishops but of religion learning and the Church Hee chargeth the Bishops that they write in a certaine 1 Admon a g. M. M. p. 252. booke that it is not lawfull to bestowe such liuings vpon laye men as are appoynted by lawe to preachers of the word But neither doe the Bishops say it nor is that booke that is quoted the Bishops nor is it likely that so graue men had so litle to doe as to busie themselues with the answering of such a vaine Libell as Martin and Martins barking sonnes But whose-soeuer the saying is it is iustifiable for if the liuings bee appoynted by lawe to preachers what law is it to infringe law that the Queene doeth keepe the temporalties of Bishops in her hands during the vacation is by law not against law So likewise it is lawfull to holde some Ecclesiasticall liuings that be appropried As for Wiclefs words against the excesse of his times they are euill extended against the want of ours and are voyde of reason for what reason is it that for the default of one a succession should be spoyled as he would haue it But sayth hee who woulde not thinke the superfluities of Bishops liuing better bestowed vpon such a man as Sir Francis Walsingham that right honourable Chancellour and benefactor of the Church and Countrey then vpon any Bishop Wherein hee doeth wrong to the memory of that good knight and in needelesse discourse bringeth his name in question To his supposall I answere that there be very wise men that thinke the liuings of Bishops better as they are and I thinke hee would so say if hee were aliue and were asked the question for no man was more desirous then hee of true honor neyther is any thing more dishonourable then to rise by the spoyles of the Church that hee pretendeth to loue nor to take that to him selfe which was giuen to other vses Neyther doe wee reade of any that hath risen by the spoyles of the Church that hath long prospered or enioyed them nor haue the Papistes any thing to obiect against vs more then sacriledge and spoyle of the Church As for the superfluities of bishops there is order taken Take foure of the best bishops in England and there will bee found eight knights euery one whereof shall farre ouermatch them in reuenues Take eight bishops next in liuing to the greatest and there will bee found two hundreth esquires euery of which shall ouerpasse them diuers yeomen clownes and marchantes doe farre excell the rest Why then should any enuie to men of learning and qualitie the estate and liuing of knights esquires yeomen and clownes It will bee sayde these haue it by inheritance but why should it not as well be lawfull to haue it and winne it by industrie as by inheritance But I am glad I know why all this while the petitioner barketh so loude Hee woulde haue great men fall to spoyling that hee might light vpon some reuersion or like a dogge gather vp crummes vnder the table when men shall ryot with Churches rapines well for his good will when churches come to be spoyled let him out
state and afterward in France Scotland which example was as good as a lawe to those that here admire thē of Geneua Priuately they whispered in mens eares in coūtrie parishes prepared the multitude to sedition In the end at Warwicke they set downe lawes and euery man bound himselfe by promise and subscription to the aduancing defence and exercise of them Th. Cartw. 1 In his answeres on his othe being examined vpon his othe confesseth That so much of their discipline as concerned the order of preaching assemblies they meant to put in practise Last of all by Coppingers extraordinarie calling they had meant to haue done some strange feate if God had not wrong the sworde out of such desperate fellowes handes Seeing then this is their common doctrine and practise that diuers assemblies haue bene made to this end in vaine doeth the libeller goe about to cleare his consortes of conspiracie of vnlawful practises routes and reuels made for the obteining of their conceited gouernement They detest all such as diffame her Maiestie Petitioner Here the Petitioner renounceth Answere and defieth all his consortes the most notorious diffamers of her Maiestie that euer wrote or spake in our times the Iesuites and their partizans onely except for they doe not onely diffame her ecclesiasticall lawes but also her parliamēt her Iudges her religiō her iustice Her maiesties gouernement of the Church saith 2 Supplicat to the parliament one is traitorous to the maiestie of our sauiour Iesus Christ another calleth the gouernmēt Antichristian 3 1. Admonit pag. 25. and deuilish A 4 Hay any worke third calleth it false vnlawfull and bastardly generally they reuell at it as if we liued not in Christes church but in the confusion of Babel Penrie saith 5 Supplicat to the parliament That we are neuer the better for the reformation we haue by her Maiestie What speaches they vtter against her maiestie her parliament and Iudges before I haue noted Yea T. Cartw. vsed so vnciuil a terme in regard of such a prince that I would be ashamed to vtter it if their rude and shamefull dealing might otherwise be discouered He saith the Archbishop is a baud to all manner of sinnes in princes you may your selfe collect the sequel of so lew de termes loyaltie will not suffer me to say what it is Against lawes they bitterly declaime one saith 6 Penry supplicat to the parliawent Impietie is suffered to beare sway against the maiestie of God and that by lawe and authoritie The 7 Epist before reformat no enemie Iudges are called Atheistes Nether doe they spare our religion For Gilby saith We haue mixed the religion of Christ and Antichrist together and the say our Sacraments are wickedly prophaned and mangled to make a somme of many particulers 8 2. Admonit pag. 42. not the papistes haue spoken against her Maiestie and her religion and lawes and our communion booke and prayers more wickedly then these Wherein if the petitioner holde that her Maiestie is not diffamed hee is very ignorant for true honor consisteth specially in the maintenance of true religion if he confesse that these are diffamatorie speaches let him not onely in wordes detest them and his fellowes but also in fact leaue them otherwise all goodmen will detest both him and them and in the end some will punish them both as diffamers of her Maiestie and the state They say Princes are to submit themselues to excommunication Petitioner and censures of the Church If they say so they maintaine an opinion very preiudiciall to princes and not iustifiable by any scripture Answere nor holden by any but by the papal and puritan factions which thereof haue made their profite for thereby the Popes haue raised vp thēselues and throwne princes downe vpon the ground opened wayes to many rebelliōs Neither is it to be doubted but that they wil also follow their steps that so stifly hold the same opinions and that against all reason for there is no precedent of it in the new or old testamēt That Azarias went out of the temple was not by the sentence of the Iudge nor for matter wherefore men be cast out of heauen Ambrose pronounced no sentence against Theodosius whatsoeuer the Canonists say contrarie neither standeth excommunication of princes vpon any good ground for seeing souereigne princes haue no superior Iudges vpon earth who should excommunicate them deseruing to be so vsed Those therefore that abase the prince vnder the becks of a packe of clownes and clowters called churchaldermen are not to be suffered to passe without controulement They maintaine that a Magistrate excommunicate Petitioner ought to be obeyed and honoured in all points of subiection They maintaine they knowe not what for if he that is excommunicate is throwen out of heauen Answere and made the slaue of Satan as 1 Aduers Erast Beza roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey him that is Satans slaue Or how can the same that is the slaue of Satan and no member of the Church be supreme gouernour of a christiā cōmon wealth And if as Buchanan saith He doe not deserue to liue vpon the earih that is by excommunication cast into hel How can he be thought worthie to enioy the greatest honors that are vpon earth This is also contrarie to our lawes that deny action or benefite of common lawe to persons excommunicate and it is one of those heresies for which 2 Beno Cardin in vita Gregor 7. Gregorie the seuenth was deposed that excommunicating the Emperour he did notwithstanding disspence with those that kept him companie Neither skilleth it that the Canons will haue obedience giuen by the wiues to the husband by the seruants to the Maister notwithstanding any excommunication against them for that right is the interest of nature which remaineth when ciuill bonds are dissolued That all ciuill bondes are dissolued or at least suspended by excommunication the Canonistes doe agree And those that say the Prince is to be excommunicate confesse also that their subiectes are assoyled from their obedience And it is the practife of papistes and doctrine of Goodman and followeth necessarily vpon the common assertions of puritans howsoeuer for a time to couer the shame of their opinions they are now content to lay downe the premisses without conclusion and to separate the conclusion from the premisses bad logitians worse subiectes most insolent commanders Simple princes they are therefore that will voluntarily submit themselues to their gouernement and presumptuous subiectes that dare require such thinges at the princes handes Their suite is Petitioner that the Church maybe ruled by Christes officers lawes and orders Away then must the churchaldermen packe Answere for they are not Christs officers the supposed holy discipline must depart for it is but T. C. conceit and two or three other threed-bare witted companions Away likewise must this
al men of learning 56 In the rules of French discipline it is enacted by the Synodicall assemblie that no Minister shall possesse landes houses or tythes wherein they declare that Ministers must liue on almes and their wiues and children be turned on begging what man then hath not good cause to detest this odious discipline that doeth not onely ouerthrowe the Ministerie but the mariage of Ministers also by a necessarie consequent 57 Finally to shut vp all in one Article these men if they be not looked into will ouerthrowe religion her Maiesties authoritie the honour of the state the rewardes of learning the studie of artes and diuinitie both the vniuersities the hope of vertue the lawes of England and many priuate mens interestes I woulde say the Church also but that euery man is desirous that the same may hee ruinated but let them that seeke the spoiles of others take heede that they be not afterwarde made a spoyle themselues It is a common saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and oftentimes the spoylers are spoyled If I shoulde prosecute the whole course of their proceedings and lay it downe in Articles as the Libeller hath begonne I shoulde but wearie you with needelesse repetitions as the Libeller hath done alreadie this is sufficient to shewe vnto you that we want not Articles against these fellowes whensoeuer their cause shall come to audience yea Articles materiall and concludent and farre vnlike to the friuolous and ridiculous Articles deuised by the Libeller His Articles haue no sequel Iudge I pray you and consider of them all of them tend to this ende to shewe that some of the Ecclesiasticall state haue offended against lawes in small trifles and are to be punished which were it granted yet doeth it not followe that a new gouernement is to be embraced and the state altered which is his principall desire and seeking Contrariwise our Articles doe shewe that both their gouernement is vniust and disordered and their opinions lewde and fantasticall and their practises seditious and therefore neither to be tollerated which is that which not onely we desire but the peaceable maintenance of the state requireth and enforceth And I doubt not but all those that giue themselues to the studie of lawes or other learning or fauour the state considering these matters will hereafter discerne who they are that would ouerthrowe her maiesties lawes and that not in vaine diuers haue gone about to withstand their lewd proceedings Hauing made an end of his Articles he declareth That his purpose was onely to redeeme her maiesties lawes from captiuitie of the clergie But he abuseth first his reader for his whole booke declareth that his purpose was rather to ouerthrowe lawes then to establishe them secondly the whole Ministerie of of the Church whom he chargeth with suppressing of lawes when all men knowe that their onely desire is that lawes may be executed He would also make them more base and odious and yet nothing can be more contemtible miserable then they haue made the whole ministerie by their odious practises For wealth and riches marchants artificers husbandmen commonly goe beyond thē Fewe leaue any thing behinde them they pay foure times more to her maiestie thē any state of mē that are most charged pay it most willingly They are wronged of euery man what would these men haue more vnlesse they seeke their liues how thē did he not shame to say that the clergie keepeth her maiesties lawes in captiuitie or how shamed he not to speake of captiuity seeing not they but the Lords of the cōsistorie keepe lawes ministers subiectes yea princes in captiuitie Trauers in his booke against Bridges doeth vaunt that they had alreadie brought diuers princes vnder their yoke and excommunicated them They say as the Pope said that they haue power to giue ouer all princes to satan to bring in their constitutions they would ouerthrowe all lawes their onely will against all lawes must preuaile He further calleth the Cleargie carnall worldlings He I say whose workes are fleshlie whofe consortes are swollen with surfet and whose portion is in this world calleth others carnall worldlings and as if he were in a bedlem fitt cryeth out in his lunatike stile O England England how long wilt thou endure these carnall worldlings A strange matter that such presumptuous companions should either dare or daring be suffered to raile against the whole Ministerie or that any that is in the Ministerie or toward it should fauour this faction that bendeth all their force against learned men and Ministers or finally that any should either imagine that these men did entend reformation or endure to heare such lewde companions to call themselues authors of reformation can malicious libelling seditious practises counterfect hypocrisie notorious crueltie exceeding pride and vanitie stand with reformation no no. and therefore let this libeller that desireth to haue faithfull true English hearted men to examine these things obteine his purpose and let them examine both the ecclesiasticall state and these hypocriticall pretenders of reformation what bribes they haue taken what extortion they haue committed what tenants they haue racked what they haue purchased what they haue spent in ryote what landes they haue receaued from their ancestors what they haue left to their successors what offices they haue borne what wrōgs they haue done I doubt not but all the factious sorte will soone repent them of this course especially when it shall be shewed that their heartes are scarce English that misliking all English lawes embrace a packe of outlandish vanities that they seeke nothing but the desolation both of church countrie the ouerthrowe of her maiesties lawes honor and the confusion of the vniuersities and all men of learning And thus much sufficeth to haue answered concerning the petitioners articles resteth nowe that I answere also his interogatories and questions that hee may bee the better satisfied and you may the better conceiue of the mans ignorance and malice If diuers things bee againe repeated and rubbed ouer blame not me but blame the babbling fellowe that drewe me to it seeing he obiecteth I could doe no lesse then answere you that haue heard his demaundes with patience heare I pray you my answere hee calleth himselfe Putcase vnder the name of Putcase you shall heare the summe of his demandes and questions CERTAINE QVESTIONS AND INTERROgatories Putcase drawen by a fauourer of reformation c. Wherein he desireth to bee resolued which the Printer hath thought good here to annexe THe course is very odious and not to be suffered Answere for if euery leud questioner might frame cases against religion or lawes neyther shall religion nor lawe maintaine due credite And if euery libeller might lawfully make demaunds sounding to the infamie of gouernours and magistrates and their doings bee traduced by infamous interrogatories it would worke in short time great hatred and confusion His first fault therefore is this that hee
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
his manifolde lewde demeanours and trecheries 73 Item because the Petitioner standeth so much vpon Vdals innocency refusing presumptuously as it should seeme any maner of fauour let him also answere whether the sayd Iohn Vdall was not acquainted with Hackets Copingers and Arthingtons conspiracy seeing that Copinger a litle before his outrage writ vnto him that now the Lorde had inabled him to fight to vanquish and ouercome that there was a Fast towardes in regarde of the afflicted Saintes in generall that hee assured himselfe that God would blesse the actors in that cause that there were diuers out of prison lying hid that in this great worke were hammering their heads c. that the same persons hoped in short time to bee brought forth into the sight of Vdals brethren and their owne enemies that their presence would daunt the enemies that God would vse base men in this worke lest men should boast in the arme of flesh that Vdall and his fellowes in prison should cheare vp their hearts for that the day of their redemption was at hand and that Vdall and his fellowe prisoners should pray that the hande of the Lorde might bee strengthened in them whom hee had appoynted to take parte with them quaere I say whether Iohn Vdall bee a loyall subiect that neuer reueiled this practise and bee not guiltie of farre more then euer was layd to his charge 74 Quaere whether the Petitioner hath not greatly hurt the cause of his clyent Vdall in giuing occasion to mention matters forgotten and almost forgiuen and whether taking parte with such fellowes himselfe is not an abettor of felonie 75 Quaere whether Th. Cartwr and master Eg. did not receiue letters from the conspirators concerning their designements and did not also conceale the same and whether the sayde master Eg. did not will the sayd Copinger to take heede that hee did not by his extraordinary calling hinder the great cause in hande and say that himselfe being an ordinary minister could not iudge of Copingers extraordinany calling and therefore would be lothe to quenche the spirit in him and whether these paraphrases of discipline stand with loyaltie and good diuinitie 76 Quaere whether T. C. and other disciplinarian teachers did not allowe the scornefull and wicked Libels of Martin and also certaine seditious dialogues and inuectiues against the State and whether their disciplinarian rules will beare them out in it 77 Quaere whether any is receiued or suffered to continue in the Ministerie at Geneua or other places gouerned like Geneua that make any scruple to subscribe or that speake against the orders of the church and whether certaine were not banished for speaking against wafer cakes there vsed in the Communion and against Vsurie and why factious persons should be more tolerated here then there 78 Quaere whether it bee a good course to suffer such as doe giue probable suspicions of discontentment with the present gouernment to continue gouernours of houses in Vniuersities and to teach schooles and to liue in the church which like vipers they seeke to ruinate 79 Quaere whether to procure a learned ministerie it be a good course to take away the rewardes of learning or at least to hazard them 80 Quaere howe many of the ministers of the reformed churches haue bene able to leaue so much to their wiues as to maintaine them from beggery and whether any man of worth can endure that indignitie and whether diuers for want of maintenance haue not fled the countrey of their habitation 81 Quaere of Pierce Putcase whether a pretended godly brother as you woulde say W. St. who is a piece of the putcase himselfe may by the lawes of this new kingdome like a thiefe or murtherer lye in wait by the high way side with a caliuer ready charged to kill his owne naturall brother for that he is not sufficiently reformed and whether this bee a sanctified course to win a brother to this melancholike reformation 82 Let also this question bee asked of the same man whether a disciplinarian brother whose wiues misgouernement made the poore man runne horne woode may notwithstanding bee choosen an alderman considering that Daneau a noble founder of this kingdome doth in his Isagogicall instructions holde that all the preceptes that Saint Paul giueth of bishops 1. Tim. 3. doe belong to the Church aldermen also and that it is required that such bishops bee chosen as can gouerne their house well and whether it is likely that he that hath no good head in gouerning his own house shoulde haue a good iudgement in gouerning of the Church 83 Item Quaere because he asketh me certaine questions of Th. Cartw. by what mysterie or science a man may sell a coate and 3 or 4 acres of land and purchase therewith 3 or 4 good lordships and yet maintaine a great familie and fare well and keepe a pedant to teach his daughters Hebrewe 84 Quaere also whether a learned sister that vnderstandeth some Greeke and Hebrewe may not in a parlour at a tables end paraphrase vpon a text of scripture according to the puritane stile and whether it bee not time for schollers to turne their bookes when such paraphrastes take on them to abuse scriptures 85 Quaere whether a trencher paraphrast I meane these that degorge discipline at full tables and vpon full stomacks at their benefactours tables are among those callings that saint Paul mentioneth Ephes 4. and not being how they dare presume to handle Gods word or rather to abuse holy scriptures in that sort 86 Item whether certaine sanctified brethren attained vnto 24 carrats of perfection in discipline may notwithstanding practise the Iewes trade and take 10. in the hundred or more if they can get it 87 Quaere whether a man may growe to that extremitie of burning zeale that euery spring and fall hee shall renewe like a serpent that casts her skinne as it happened to a certaine holy brother at Ipswich not many yeeres since and whether such a fellowe bee a fit man for a president of a consistorie 88 Quaere whether as in Italie and other places of poperie desperate wicked men runne into the order of Theatins or Capussins so certaine desperate bankeruptes and loose liuers as Bar. Fl. and others haue not suddenly runne into puritanisme and whether this alteration be not ab extremo in extremum by such men as will neuer come into medium 89 Quaere why it shoulde bee more lawfull for ignorant men of base trades and occupations to take vpon them the decision of matters of religion and gouernement of the Church then it is for Giles Wig. to become a malster and others of this sect to become grasiers and wiredrawers and such like 90 Quaere whether a godly brother rather then by selling his liuing he shoulde ouerthrowe his house 1 The doubt of Th. Sa. of Yorkeshire may not by the lawes of discipline breake bond and promise and suffer his sureties to lye by it and in