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A19142
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A fresh suit against human ceremonies in God's vvorship. Or a triplication unto. D. Burgesse his rejoinder for D. Morton The first part
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Ames, William, 1576-1633.
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1633
(1633)
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STC 555; ESTC S100154
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485,880
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929
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aestimation of that calling without making just difference of the persons have warned others to use more discretion But this I am sure of that all Subscribers doe testifie under their hands that all whoe refuse to conforme may lawfully have their Baines and Mariages forbidden because it is provided in the Service-booke that none shall marry except they communicate wherto is annexed kneeling and that none shall eyther communicate or marry except first they be Bishoped or Confirmed Sixtly we quaestion whether it be lawfull to hear a conformable Minister if another may be heard or safe to relie upon their Ministery which quaestions he seemeth to invent and teach rather then receive from vs except he meaneth by relying taking all for good that they say or doe Seventhly we have appropriated the surnames of Christians the title of Syncere the very name of the Church the Brethren the Godly unto our selves From all which slanders we are so free that I doubt not to say according to my conscience that among those which live under the tyranny of the Pope and doe not utterly seperate from him through ignorance there be many Christians Syncere according to their knowledge belonging to the true Catholike Church and so to be accounted our Godly Brethren But on the contrary part Our Prelates appropriating unto themselves the name of the Church of England really proclaime us by their extreame hostile courses to be farre from the account of their Christian Brethren If some time some of us call those among the godly that consent with us the Brethren the Godly c. the Rejoynder should not have excepted against it at least in this roule of accusations in the first front whereof he styleth and surnameth Conformists the Faithfull Servants of Christ. SECT 29.30 Concerning our Confessions and Practises IN the 29. Section onely Calvin Martyr and Zepperus are brought in as witnessing something against us But their judgements have beene so declared before that it would be a tedious repetition to insist on them againe In the 30. or last Section a contradiction being sought-for in vaine betwixt our conclusiâ—ns and our confessions and practises the Replier thought it sufficient to dispatch all briefely in a few questions to which the Rejoynder answers but so as he bringeth little or nothing that requireth a new confutation The first question was about Temples Bells Table-cloths objected by the Defendant whether they have such Idolatry put upon them by Papists as the Crosse hath The Rejoynder answereth 1. that if they have as much as the Surplice that will serve the turne It would indeed in part though nor in whole But that cannot be prooved His second answer is that such a Crosse as ours is was never abused at all in Popery Which is a Metaphisicall conceit sufficiently before confuted His third is that Temples and Bells were as well abused But the question was of such Idolatry His fourth is that the white linnen Altar cloth was as much abused as the Surplice But the quaestion was of the Crosse. And 2. The Papists Altar-cloath differeth much from the Table-cloath which we allow of 2. The second was if the Defender his owne heart did not tell him that ther is a civil use of the thinges fore-named which cannot be imagined of the Crosse The Rejoynder granteth a civil use of Bells thâ—ugh not of Churches or Communion table-cloathes Adding that ther may be a civil use of some Crosses though not of Transient Grosses such as ours and also of Wafers But he attended neyther to those wordes of the Replier If his owne heart doe not tell him nor to those such thinges For his bringing-in first of termes which involve the use together with the thinges and that use also immediaâ— which is but mediat in Churches and Communion table cloathes with his contrarie changing of such Crosses as ours into some Crosses and Wafer-Gods into Wafâ—r-seales for letters declare both Concerning the difference enough hath been sayd in the first part of this Fresh-suit in the head of Ceremonies 3. The third was what Superstition was in the meer signification given by Durandus unto Bells and Bell-ropes which is not to be found in our Crosse and Surplice The Rejoynder heer answereth nothing but onely noteth many more superstitious significations to have been then conceited of diverse thinges and also of Bells then we have in our Ceremonies But the quaestion was onely of the weight not the number of superstitious significations 4. The 4. was whether the Pagans use of Bay-leaves objected by the Defender about 1000. yeares past doeth cast such a reflexion upon our civil use of Bay-leaves as Popish Superstition doeth upon our Ceremonies The Rejoynder his answer consisteth onely in wordes save that he aequalleth the Countries of Papists to those of ancient unknowen Heathens the time before or after Baptisme unto a 1000. yeares distance the place crowne of the head and fore-head unto farre-removed and unknowen Landes Heer againe he neglected that item of the Repliers If his owne heart doeth not tell him 5. The fift was what sense the Defender had to finde fault with us for not altering the situation of Churches Nay sayth the Rejoynder what face have you to say that he did finde fault with you for not doeing it Surely the plaine countrie face of taking the Defend his wordes as they stand in your Rejoynder pag. 645. Nor doe you alter the Situation of your Churches and Chauncels toward the East 6. The 6. was if it be all one to call a Ship by the name of Castor and Pollux Act. 28.11 and to use a religious Ceremonie in Gods worship taken from those Idolls No sayth the Rejoynder Which is enough to shew the vanitie of the Defender in comparing the names of Wensday Thursday Friday unto Ceremonies taken from Poperie 7. The 7. was whether it be one thinge to change Coapes into Cushions and to use a Masse-vestiment in Gods worship The Rejoynder sayth nothing worth the repeating 8. The last quaestion was if it be not a kinde of slander to say that the Church of Geneva imposeth a round Wafer-cake like the Papists to be used in the Lords Supper And if it be not a wide leap to bring in the practise of Geneva for an instance of the Nonconformists practise in England The Rejoynder answereth 1. Yes it is a slander to impute unto Geneva a round Wafer-cake like the Papists but addeth that the Defender did not so If he doeth not what mean those wordes of his allbeit the Church of Geneva is not ignorant what the round Wafer among the Papists did signifie Or what consequence made the Defender from Genevas Wafer-cake to Ceremonies abused unto Idolatrie if the Geneva Wafer-cake be not like unto the Papists In the second place the Rejoynder confesseth that the bread used at Geneva is a large square Cake which is broken in sondry parcels unto the Communicants and yet he addeth that it is a Wafer-Cake as thin as thin may
the former testimony the Rejoynder answereth 1. That these words are not the definitive judgement of the Assembly but onely spoken as the Plea of some tender-hearted men which suffered for refusall of those things Now if this were so as the Rej. maketh it yet this we may gather from thence that the Plea of many godly ministers of England in those dayes was that our Ceremonies are unlawfull For so it is there sayd many thousands both godly and learned have their consciences continually stricken with these sentenses what hath Christ to doe with Belial what fellowship is there betwixt darkenesse and light c. in the words formerly cited What meant the Rejoynder then to perswade his Readers in his Preface and upon all occasions that our Ceremonies were not by Non-Conformists held unlawfull but onely inconvenient untill of late If nothing else can yet this his owne not confession but peremptory answer may so convince him that he must acknowledge his accusing of us as dissenting therein from the first seekers of reformation in the Ceremonies and so the occasion of his bitter writing is a meere conceyt built up by desire of putting some colour upon that which nakedly beheld would be offensive Observe further that a definitive judgement is vainely heere denyed where it was never sought for The Ministers of England did not send into Scotland for a definitive sentence concerning the use or abuse of things in England Neither were they of Scotland so simple as to take that authority of defining upon them But for their advizing judgement is plaine enough to all that read their words with any indifferency They were not ignorant of our English question there were among them that had beene at Frankford as M r. Knoxe M r. Good-man c. They did not so farre forget themselves as to send allegations in other mens names into England to be admitted there which themselves did not allow of Beside they directly call them unprofitable vaine trifles Yea sayth the Rejoynder but they disclaime the very question they supposed the refusers of the Ceremonies not to damne the consciences of the users and call them vaine trifles in comparison of preaching the Gospel They disclaim indeed professed entering into the ground of that question as mediators use to doe but yet insinuâ—te their judgement of it Ceremonies may be damned â—hough the consciences of all that use them be not condemned Vnprofitable vaine trifles found not of compaâ—ison Neither is there any thing in the letter that gives â—ny inkling of such a limitation To the second testimonie taken out of the Scottish Confession the Rejoynder answereth 1. that it respecteth all Ceremonies as they were Antichrists formally and not all materialy After which manner it is easie to answer any â—estimonie that ever was alleged For in the Confession there is no difference made betwixt all and some neyther can the Rejoynder give any apparent reason of his formal interpretation and it is well knowen that the â—ery material Popish Ceremonies were then detested by M r. Knoxe with those that agreed unto his direction as â—hey also have been ever since the Reformation abhorâ—ed generally in Scotland untill of late when that which one of them calleth an Altar of Damascus came into that Countrey The Rejoynder his 2. answer is that they of the Assembly professed what liked them best in Scotland not what they thought others bound to do as appeareth by our late King Iames the chiefe of them But before this can stand it must be shewed in what Synode we detest is taken for wee like â—ot so well in our Country and then how the after-interpretation of one who was then but fifteene yeares old can over-sway the common interpretation of the whole Church 2. Oecolampadius requireth a Minister of Scaphusium Epist. 1. lib. 1. pag. 129. utterly to cast off all the Ceremonies of the Papists in celebration of the Lords Supper as those which cannot be continued without nourishing of the superstition and impiety whereunto they served of olde The Rejoynder answereth 1. That this was not Oecolampadius his owne advise but that which some others would have had him given But he propounding it and onely excusing himselfe modestly that he was slow in put on others so farre insinuating that though he himselfe was so resolved yet he durst not urge others thereto and therefore onely requireth conveniency without offense sufficiently testifieth his allowance of that advise And who thinke you were the Authors of that advise but zuinglius c He 2. addeth out of divers Epistles that Oecolampadius would not have all that country tye themselves in Ceremonies to Basil Tigure or Bern that he holde goldâ—â— silver glasse or wooden vessels in administration of the Sacrament indifferent As if any of us were of another minde this is a meere colour of something where nothing is to be found In the third place he sheweth how Oecolampadius allowed of the termes of Sacrifice Altar and omitted no wonted Ceremonies but onely the latine tongue in reading the Epistle and Gospel But if the Rejoynder had considered that termes are no Ceremonies and that Oecolampadiuâ— allowed and Practised this last mentioned imperfect reformation when he was in comparison but a Novice in religon before he came to Basil he would not have so exulted in this quotation as he doeth The Abridgers sayth he never I thinke read Oecolampadius his Epistles But he hath no just reason to thinke but some of them had read those Epistles unlesse he can shew from whence else they had this testimony I have read them long since and remember well that to be true which now I sayd How it stood at Basil with Popish Ceremonies when Oecolampadius was Minister there it appeareth out of Zuinglius his Fellow-Minister de Baptismo in these words worthy to be recited though somewhat too large for this place Lubenâ— equidem Catabaptistu concedam fatebor aliqui dutilitatis ex contentione illa quam ipsi de Baptismâ— instituerunt enatum esse Hine enim factum est ut eae quae humanae rationis stulta superstitio addâ—derat qualia sunt exorcism sputi sausque usus alia hujus generis complura in lucem protracta ab omnibus pro vanis inutilibus habita fint Non infiâ—iamur illa à Majoribus nostris ad nos usque nostra tempora manavisse Interim tamen constat hac divinitus institut a non esse sed ab hominibus olim addita quae fortasse tune pro temporum ratione ferri poterant eo quod ut Israelitae olim subâ—ndâ— Aegypti desiderio tactâ— ad illius delicias respicsebant fic qui nuper ad Christâ— pertes concesserant ad Gentilium religioxem non nihilo promptiores propensioresque erant quae Ceremonias â—â—â—usmodi plures continebat I will easily grant the Catabaptists and confesse that the strife which they made about Baptisme hath not beene altogether without benefit For hence it comes to passe that