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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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in al thinges touching the royaltie of the same Crowne shoulde be submitted to the sea of Rome We doe also reade there that all the Barons and all the Byshoppes present and the deputies of those which were absent being asked euery man seuerally saide that therein they would to their vttermost stand with the King against the Pope so zealous were all good Englishmen in those daies of the auncient honour and libertie of their country and the soueraignetie of their King Moreouer Saint Germanye in the xxxix Chapter of the second booke entreating how ecclesiasticall persons may dispose of their goodes he vtterly reiecteth the Canon law therein and sheweth what they may doe by the lawes of this Realme and at the length he saith thus And moreouer a parson of a Church vicar Chauntery priest or such other all such goods as they haue by reason of the parsonage vicarage or Chauntery as that they haue by reason of their owne person they may lawfully giue and bequeth after the common law And if they dispose part among their parishoners and part to the building of Churches or giue part to the ordinary or to poore men or in any such manner as is appoynted by the law of the Church they offend not therein vnlesse they thinke thēselues bound thereunto by duety authoritie of the law of the Church not regarding the Kings lawes For if they doe so it seemeth they resist the ordinance of God which hath giuen power to princes to make lawes But whereas the Pope hath soueraignety in temporall things as he hath in spirituall thinges there some say that the goods of priests must in conscience be disposed as it is contained in the same summe But it holdeth not in this Realme for the goodes of spirituall men bee temporall in what manner soeuer they come to them and must be ordered by the temporall law as the goodes of temporall men must be Thus farre Sainte Germany then may I inferre if that the Pope the counsell and thee conuocation can not make a Lawe touching the goodes of the spirituallty within this Realme and that those which doe dispose of their goodes according to such a Canon doe sinne although it doe agree with the law of this Realme if they did it as bounde by that Canon shall wee thinke that the Pope the councell or the conuocation can giue away the goodes and landes of temporall men within this Realme yea and the Crowne and kingdome and that they doe not sinne mortally that doe obey any such decrees And what account is to bee made of the Popes dispensation in temporall causes the same learned author plainely declareth in the xli Chapter of the seconde booke where hee saith That although by the Canon law euery man may lawfully kill an Assasin such a fellow as will at euery mans request kill any man for money yet he affirmeth it is altogether vnlawfull in this land and that notwithstanding the Popes dispensation and pardon he that slayeth an Assasin is a fellon and so ought to bee punished as a fellon Moreouer in his xliiii Chapter hee doth conctantly holde that the Canon summes that do determine all scruples of conscience according to the Canon law doe rather hurt English mens consciences then giue them light and that there bee many cases in them ruled according to the Canon law that are not to bee obserued in this Realme neyther in law nor conscience And in xlii Chapter that although many sayings in the same summes doe agree with the lawes of this Realme yet they are to be obserued by the authoritie of the Lawes of this Realme and not by the authoritie alleaged by them Finally in the xxix Chapter of the same booke hee doth flatly ouerrule our present case whereas by the Canon Law an heretike hath ipso facto lost all his goodes and therefore can make noe execution he affirmeth that it holdeth and bindeth not here for if he doe abiure hee hath forfeited noe goods but if hee be conuicted of heresie and deliuered to laye mens handes he hath forfeyted all his goodes that he hath at that time that he was deliuered vnto them but not his landes before that he be put to death To this the Doctor answereth me thinketh that as it onely belongeth vnto the Church to determine heresies that so it belongeth vnto the Church what punishmēt he shal haue for his heresie except death which they can not be iudges in but if the Church decree that therfore he shall forfeite his goods me thinkes that they be forfeyted by that decree vnto this obiection he thus answered vnder the name of student Nay verely for they be tēporall things and belong to the iudgement of the kings court And I thinke that the ordinarie might haue set no fine vpon one impeached of heresie vntill it was ordained by the statute of Henry the fourth that he may set a fine if hee see cause and that the king shall haue that fine If this were the vniuersall beliefe of all good Englishmen in the time when the Popes authoritie most flourished heere and before this controuersie arose that neither the Pope nor counsell nor Church hath authoritie to ordaine any temporall punishment for heresy can he be accounted a true Englishman that doth holde that the Pope can depriue her maiestie of her crowne and dignitie for a pretence of heresy Of the counsell of Laterane or that the Canon made in the counsell held at Laterane doth binde vs heere in England But because we vnderstand that the greatest scruple in conscience of our Catholickes Romane is grounded vpon this Canon we will make a particular treatise thereof and to vncomber and discharge their consciences shew first that it is no determination of faith that the Pope may depose princes and secondly that it doth not binde in this realme not onely because as I haue proued before the Church can make no decree of temporalities but also because by the verie Canon Lawe it neither is nor euer was in force within this realme and finally neither orderly executed according to the order of the Canon And first because I shall haue occasion to examine euerie worde of one member thereof I will set it downe verbatim worde for worde Ca. 33● Si ver● dominus temporalis requisitus admonitus ab ecclesia terram suam purgare neglexerit ab hac haeretica foeditate per Metropolitanum comprouinciales episcapos excommunicationis vinculo innodetur etsi satisfacer● contempserit intra annum significetur hoc summo pontifici Romano vt extunc ipse vasallos ab eius fidelitate denuntiet absolutos terram exponat Catholicis occupandam qui cam exterminatis haereticis sine contradictone possideant in fidei puritate conseruent ita quod bona huiusmodi damnatorum si laici fuerint confiscentur si vero clereci applicentur ecclesijs a quibus stipendia per ceperint Which may thus be englished If the temporall Lord beeing requested