that euer was coÌ„mitted And because of many other such reasons aleadged by our diuines heretofore whereof this of his is none being indeed without all shew of likelihood For how doth the bodily presence of Christ deterre any man from sinne and wickednesse nay rather it incourages him thereto For who would feare or respect such a God as hath neither eye to see nor eare to heare that is crusht vp togeather into the compasse a baggage Wafer cake which he may and must eate and if he be afraide of any displeasure by it he may throw it to the Dogges or cast it into the fire as one of your Popes did Miserable Idolaters that worship such a breaden created God! But I pray you what aduantage get we by remouing Christs bodily presence from the Sacrament as long as we confesse that both God-head and manhood are truely receiued of all faithfull beleeuers in that blessed communion How vnreasonable an absurditie were it to imagine that the bodily presence of Christ can worse consort with sinfull liues then his spirituall Whereas we are sure that while he liued he was bodily present with sinners and Publicans but spiritually neuer had any communion or conuersation with any such vntill his grace had in some measure purged them Papists indeed absurdly dreame that the wicked receiue Christ in the Sacrament and yet haue no benefit by Christs being in them For what cause saith he haue they coyned a new negatiue Religion First proue they haue and then require an answere But that is vnpossible vnlesse your skill will serue you to perswade men that the Scriptures are newly coyned and as true is your charge that our religion is negatiue otherwise then the Scriptures are which are profitable to teach to coÌ„uince 2. Tim. 3. 16. to correct to instruct in righteousnesse But what a toye is this to obiect that to vs in disgrace of our Religion which the Iewes with as good reason might haue obiected to our Sauiour and the Gentiles to his holy Apostles for did not he and they vtterly take away the Sacraments ceremonies rites lawes customes of the Iewes and all heathenish points of the Gentiles superstition and Idolatry you deale with vs in this case as a man would deale with the right heire to lands which he iniuriously deteyned You haue forged new deeds conueiances wheÌ„ we come to demand our right you tel vs our plea stands vpon negatioÌ„ of euidences deeds conueiances whereas we bring the most ancient record of Scripture to proue our title as our proper plea and deale with your forgeries no further then the necessitie of cleering our right and the truth enforceth vs. which also driues me at this time to make a short answere to your slaunders How doe we bring in Feasting for fasting When neither you Papists haue any true fasts among you neither do we ordinarily vse any feasting vpon those dayes which being superstitiously left to vs by you are Ciuilly retained by vs with more moderation then your selues vsed Saue only that we make it no matter of conscience to forbeare flesh at such times appointed In steed of galloping ouer Pater nosters Aue maries and Creeds with many Idolatrous some blasphemous adiurations without vnderstanding or affection we haue restored the true vse of praying which is to confesse our sinnes and with hearty sorrowes to craue pardon of God in the name of Iesus Christ for his sake and in his only mediation That is popish deuotion the dissolution whereof in deed we haue by all meanes procured and by the gracious mighty prouidence of God performed Not to make men more vainely secure but more religiously deuout in geuing the honor to God only which Papists rob him of to worship their owne Idolatrous inuentions this we continually teach and vrge not without zeale in verball sermons how glad would you be if it were so and how well would you like such sermons But with euidence of truth prouing by the scriptures that the Pope is that very great Antichrist prophecied of by Paule and Iohn That popery is an Idollatrous seruice patcht vp togeather by little and little as the diuill could from time to time deuise and procure allowance of such points as were fitt for the aduancâ—ng establishing of his eldest sonne Antichrist But if any of our sermons be verball they are those that are botcht vp out of your postills foaming vp a little froath of carnall wit withour zeale in the speaker or coÌ„science in the hearers that are delighted with such vanities neither of which seemes to haue any sufficient knowledge or feeling of the true course and vse of preaching Article 5. Papist The Protestants make God the Author of sinne the only cause of sinne that man sinneth not that God is worse then the diuell Protestant The Protestants make the diuill and man the onely Authors and committers of all sinne and namly of these heresies and slaunders wherewith you haue stult this malicious pamphlet Papist Whosoeuer defendeth that God commaundeth perswadeth vrgeth impelleth to sinne maketh God the cause of sinne But all Protestants say that God commaundeth perswadeth Calu lib. 1. instit c 17. sect 11. c 18. sect 4 li. 3. c. 23. sect 7. 8. 9. Zuingl serd prouidentia Beza aphoris vrgeth impelleth to sinne Ergo. The Protestants make God the cause and author of sinne The maior I proue for if God perswade or impell men to sinne as for example Iudas to sel Christ Saint Peter to deny Christ the Iewes to crucifie Christ questionles he intended the sacriledge of Iudas the negation of Peter the murder of the Iewes and this much more effectually then Iudas Peter or the Iewes for who can resist his impulsion or who can frustrat his intention Voluntati euis quis resistet who is able to oppose himselfe against his wil yea what maÌ„ is he that in conscience were not bound to coÌ„forme his will vnto the wil of God who is the author of al good wills the first rule square of al regular wils Iudas Peter the Iewes if they had followed the motions of God who could haue blamed them for following him who could not erre in impelling nor sinne in perswading them But some will say God moued them for a good end videlicet the redemption of man and they intended an ill end to wit lucre reuenge or some other sinister effect Yet this Ad Rom. 3 v. 8. snift will not salue the soare For euill may not be done that good may follow Non suâ—t facienda mala vt inde veniant bona For otherwise a man might steale to giue almes be drunke for a meriment commit adultrie to beget Children Moreouer why might not Iudas Peter or the Iewes intend that good end that God intended and haue sold denied and crucified Christ conforming their intentions to his they being instruments and he the first mouer Agane it cannot be said but that God indirectly
First those that vainely deceaue themselues with an opinion of of faith wheras they haue none Let him that thinks he stands take heed least he fall Then they that in deed do truely beleeue who because their faith is vnperfect must labour dayly for the perfecting thereof which they shall neuer attaine to if they bee careles and do not continually stand in feare of falling by reason of their owne infirmity So that this exhortation doth not forbid striâ—ing to perfection but inioyne the meanes of attaining thereto which is dayly to stand in feare of our corruption because we are not perfect in faith Blessed is the man that feareth alway feare to Pro. 28. 14 sinne is no way against faith because faith hath receaued no promise of full freedome from sinne Feare of punishment Rom. 6. 23. is necessarily annexed to the former because the wages of sinne is death Whereof we may taste in our owne feeling by reason of our weake faith if we doe not worke our saluation with feare and trembling What his meaning should be in his last sentence I cannot gesse For I thinke he will not say that this filiall feare comprehends in it seruile feare also because then the distinction will scarce be currant vnlesse he expound himselfe as I sayd before that the feare of punishment followes vpon the feare of sinne in which respect we neede not doubt to graunt that the Apostle exhorts vs to both kinds of feare and yet so as that he no way perswades to infidelitie though the Protestants principle be that we are bound to beleeue by faith that we shal be saued Papist Articles concerning good life and pietie Protestant I may not forget to put the Reader in minde that diuers of these Articles as the 1. 2. 4. 5. are not points held by the Protestants but matters charged vpon their doctrine by the Papists and that quite contrary to their direct protestation So that if any such thing fall out vpon our opinions we may professe with a good conscience that we are deceaued by the error of our iudgement not carryed away by any desire to erre For proofe hereof we offer our selues to be iudged by all men of any indifferencie according to our answeres and reasons which we haue made and now doe make in our iust and necessary defence Article 1. Papist The Protestants are bound in Conscience neuer to aske God forgiuenesse of their sinnes Protestant The Protestants will rather abiure any point of doctrine vpon which this may follow then to maintaine their doctrine for beare the pâ—rformance of this duty but neither of both these need as our answer will shew The principall syllogisme for the proofe of this article omitted I know not vpon what reason by this Author is thus to be concluded Whosoeuer sinnes grieuously in asking God forgiuenesse of his sinnes is bound in conscience neuer to aske it But the Protestants sinne grieuously in asking God forgiuenes of their sinnes Therefore the Protestants are bound in conscience neuer to aske God forgiuenes of their sinnes Instead of this syllogisme we haue the proofe of the assumption Papist Whosoeuer is assured by faith that his sinnes are forgiuen A. B. Bucer in lib. de con art de â—ustifi Calum in aâ—â—d coÌ„cil â—es 6. lib. 3. iustit c. 2 â— 16. 17. 18 Kemâ—â— in exam con Truâ— â—est 6 him sinneth most grieuously in asking God pardon for them But all true Protestants are assured by faith that their sinnes are forgiuen them Ergo. All true Protestants sinne greiuously in asking pardon of God for them The Maior is euident for who but an Infidell or a mad man would demaund of God the creation of the world which he is assured by faith that God hath already created or Christs incarnation which already is performed or the institution of sacraments which alreadie is effected In like maner who but an Infidell or mad man will demaund pardon of his sinnes which he beleeueth already by faith that God hath forgeuen For it is a signe that he doubteth of that which hee is bound by faith to beleeue which doubting faith is flat infidelitie D. Moreouer whatsoeuer we demaund that we hope to obtaine Nam quod videt quis quid â—peratâ—d Rom. 6. but no man hopeth to obtaine that he alreadie possesseth as no man will demaund of God his owne soule or body because already he posâ—esseth them The Minor is vndoubted because this is that liuely faith whereby the Protestants are iustified by this they apprehend Christ by this they applie his merits and Passion vnto them and without this no man can attaine vnto Saluation Hereupon I will inferre that no Protestant can with a safe conscience say the Lords prayer Because he cannot pray as hee ought without true faith and call God his father and if he haue true faith he cannot without note of infidelitie vtter this petition forgiue vs our sinnes for that most assuredly he beleeueth and protesteth in the first ingresse of that praier that he is the sonne of God and consequently beleueth by faith that his sinnes are forgiuen him Protestant The best is we are not charged with denying that a man is bound to aske God forgiuenes of sinnes but only that we do it against that duty to which in coÌ„science we are bound Therefore if this cauil were a true challenge we might happily be thought absurd in holding opinions that cannot agree togeather but we could not be counted impious since we vrge and practize continually and daily praier for the obtayning of forgiuenes but this conceit is fancied by Papists not so much as fauored by our doctrine Witnes this poore reason of theirs and our plaine and true answere thereunto Whosoeuer is assured by faith that his sinnes are forgiuen sinneth Proposition most greuously in asking God pardon for them Perhaps some man will maruell that this Papist as it may A. seeme vnnecessarily makes so often mention of beleeuing by faith and being assured by faith because there can be no assurance or beleefe but only by faith But he doth it agreeably to their Popish doctrine which acknowledgeth a kinde of assurance but that not of faith but of hope There is say they concerning euery mans owne saluation Certitudo spei Assurance of hope but not Certitudo fidei Assurance of faith The reason of this distinction is that hope may be deceaued but faith cannot Which they would neuer say if they considered that all true Christian hope ariseth from some promise made vnto vs by God in the Scriptures whervnto we haue interest by nothing but faith What a vaine thing is it for a man to hope for ought at Gods hands as the world commonly doth without any likelyhood of obteining it and what likelyhood can there be where there is a flat protestation to the contrary namely that nothing is to be looked for at the hands of God either by faith or hope but in and for
sinneth most greeuously in asking GOD pardon for them But all true Protestants are assured by faith that their sinnes are forgiuen them Ergo all true Protestants sinne grieuously in asking pardon of God for them Protestant The principall syllogisme for the proofe of the Article omitted I know not vpon what reason by this author is thus to be concluded Whosoeuer synne greeuously in asking God forgiuenesse of their synnes are bound in conscience neuer to aske him forgiuenesse But the Protestants synne greeuously in asking God forgiuenes of their sinnes Therefore the Protestants are bound in conscience neuer to aske God forgiuenesse of their sinnes The Assumption of this syllogisme he proues thus Papist Whosoeuer is assured by faith that his sinnes are forgiuen sinnes greeuously in asking God pardon for them But all true Protestants are assured by faith that their sinnes are forgiuen them Therefore all true Protestants sinne greeuously in asking God forgiuenesse of their sinnes Protestant That the proposition is false it appeares by the practise of Psal 32. 1. 51. 1. 2. Dauid who prayed to God for the pardon of that sinne which he beleeued by faith was forgiuen for so was he assured 2. Sam. 12. 13. before from the Lord by the Prophet Nathan Papist If none but an Infidell or a mad man would demaund of God the creation of the world or Christs incarnation or the institution of Sacraments which already is effected then none but such a one would aske of God pardoÌ„ for his sinns being assured by faith that they are forgiuen him But none but an Infidell or a mad man would demaund of God the creation of the world or Christs incarnation or the institution of the sacraments Therefore none but a mad man or an Infidell would aske of God pardon for his synnes being assured by faith they are alreadie forgiuen them Protestant I deny your consequence because it presumes of an equality where there is none For we do not beleeue the later with so great assurance as the former besides we haue a commaundement for the latter but not for the former Papist Whosoeuer demaunds that which he hopes not to obtaine synns greuously by demaunding it But whosoeuer is assured by faith that his sinnes are forgiuen him in asking pardon demaunds that which he hath no hope to obtaine Therefore whosoeuer is assured by faith that his synnes are forgiuen him synnes greeuously in asking pardon for them Protestant I deny your proposition for he only sinnes greeuously in praying for that he possesseth who beleeues certainly that he doth possesse that he prayeth for not he which hauing some true perswasion hath also some doubt withall Neither is the assumption true Because with the assurance there is some doubt euen in those that beleeue truly the forgiuenesse of their sinnes The doubt is sinne but the asking pardon because of this doubt is noe sinne The Protestants do not teach that all Christians haue this absolute assurance but that they ought to labour for it Vpon this reason he gathers this conclusion Papist He that cannot without note of Infidelity aske forgiuenesse of synnes cannot with a safe conscience say the Lords prayer But no protestant can without note of infidelity aske forgiuenesse of synnes Therefore no Protestant can with a safe conscience say the Lords prayer Protestant If by note of Infidelity you meane sinning by weakenesse of faith your proposition is false For a man that doubts of pardon may craue it without sinne though he cannot doubt without synne If by it you vnderstand being an Infidell because of asking that which he is sure he hath your assumption is false for a true Protestant is not an Infidell by such doubting though he should not doubt Article 2. Papist The protestants are bound in conscience â—â— auoide all good workes Euery man is bound vpon paine of eternall damnation to auoide all deadly sinnes But fasting praier allmesdeeds and all good works according to the Protestants Religion are deadly sinnes Ergo according to the protestants religion all men are bound vpon paine of eternall damnation to auoyd fasting prayer and all good workes Protestant By an orderly course of proceeding in disputation the first syllogisme should be to this effect Euery man is bound vpon paine of eternall damnation to auoyd all good workes But the Protestants are bound in conscience to auoide that which euery man is bound vpon paine of eternall damnation to auoyde Therefore the Protestants are bound in conscience to auoide all good workes Instead of that he hath set vs downe the proofe of the proposition The assumption whereof I vtterly deny as false in it selfe and slaunderous to our doctrine For neither Fasting praying almesdeeds c. are deadly sinnes neither doe we teach any such thing but onely as this man himselfe confesses in expounding that place of Esa 64. 6. that the best workes we can doe are infected with deadly sinne And it is one thing I trow to say that a man in his best health is neuer without an Ague and another thing to say that a mans best health is an Ague Further we must obserue these two points in this matter that by deadly sinne we meane not as the Papists doe the grosse breaches of Gods commaundements For the good workes of a regenerate man are ordinarily voide of all such transgressions but slippes of infirmity by which wâ— defile these good workes To which if any man replie that we are bound to refraine all such sinnes I willingly subscribe vnto him But withall I deny that we are bound to auoide all good workes because we can doe none without this taint of corruption For the workes are commanded and accepted of God and shal be rewarded for all this infirmity of ours which cleaues vnto them and would make both them and vs for them hatefull vnto God but that it hath pleased him to pardon it in Iesus Christ Art 3. Papist The Protestants either haue no faith at all or els lye most damnably in denying that a man assisted by grace can keepe the commandements Whosoeuer knoweth God keepeth his Commaundements But all true protestants know God Ergo all true protestants keepe his commandements Protestant It is more troublesome to apply this Syllogisme to the question then hard to answere it But I haue performed that taske in my larger discourse and now onely speake to his syllogisme as it lyes Where first I graunt him the conclusion according to S. Iohns minde For indeed euery true protestant keepes Gods commaundements though not perfectly Which imperfection our papists must needes graunt as long as they runne to dip their best workes in Christs bloud which needed not if they were perfect of themselues Secondly I say the text of Saint Iohn doth proue that he is not to be vnderstood of perfect obedience because he speakes without exception of all Christians that know God to euerlasting life Many whereof yea euen the best as Dauid oftentimes sinne greeuously Art 4. Papist
AN ANSVVERE to a popish Pamphlet of late newly forbished and the second time Printed Entituled Certaine articles or forcible reasons discouering the palpable absurdities and most notorious errors of the Protestants religion By Anthony Wotton Papist Palpauimus quasi coeci parietem et quasi absque oculis attrectauimus impegimus meridie quasi in tenebris As blinde men we haue gropte the wall and as without eyes we haue handled it we haue stumbled at noone dayes as in darknesse Isa 59. Protestant If you were blinde yee should not haue sinne but now yee say we see therefore your sinne remaineth Iohn 9. 41. Papist Domine aperi oculos istorum vt videant O Lord open the eyes of these men that they may see 4. Reg. 6. Protestant Lord lay not this sinne to their charge Acts. 7. 60. Imprinted at London by G. Eld for William Timme dwelling in Pater-noster rowe at the signe of the Flovver de Luce and crovvne neere Cheapeside 1605. To the Right Honorable Edward Lord Denny Baron of Waltham R. Honorable MAy it please your good Lordship to accept of this poore treatise not in any part of satisfaction for so honorable an offer of your vndeserued kindnes but as a Bill of my hand for the acknowledgment of so great a debt To promise payment of such a sum were to deceiue with false hope to imagine it may be made by such meanes as this would argue a miscoÌ„ceipt both of your Lordships due and my ability All that remaines is by this or some such lâ—ke deed to professe my sensiblenes of your great fauour and my owne bond with a continuall desire of some better oportunity to shew my thankfulnesse Which if it please your Lordship to take in good part your honorable kindnes and my debt by it shall receaue such increase as shal bind mee alwaies to the best duty I can performe euen to call vpon God for an enlargement of all his graces and blessings on your Lordship and all yours to your present and euerlasting comfort through Iesus Christ to whose gratious protection I commend your Honor now and euer Tower hill May 23. 1605. Your Lordships in all Christian duty Anthony Wotton To the Reader I Had dispatcht my answer to these Popish Articles with purpose to haue publisht it Ianuary 9. 1600. But it pleased God to disapoynt me of that purpose by the vnlooked for ouerthrow of my Honourable Lord the Earle of Essex since that time I haue kept it by me the rather because the Pamphlet hath bene since that time sufficiently answered by two learned men Now at the last the importunity of some friends hath drawne from me a certain Consent for the Printing of it in these 2. respects First because it seemes to them that it may serue as part of an answere to diuers points lately set out against Maister Perkins reformed Catholick tilâ— a more particular refutation thereof be ready secondly because the Papists haue of late new for bished and reprinted these Articles with some answers and arguments which were not in the former treatise therfore remaine as yet vnanswered The booke it selfe with the Author and reasons of the publishing thereof I committ to thy Christian censure beseeching God to giue a blessing to it for the maintayning of his owne holy truth the instructing and establishing of his children the conuincing and confounding of his enemies to his diuine Maiesties glory in Iesus Christ our Lord and onely Sauiour Tower-hill May 23. 1605. Thine assured in Christ Anthony Wotton The Coppie of a Letter written by a Catholicke to a Worshipfull Protestant Gentle man his especiall friend concerning certaine reasons why the Protestants religion is false and absurd Papists LOuing and reloued friend I haue receiâ—â—ed A your courteous letter wherein you greatly wonder that I wondered so much in our last discourse that any man in England enduâ—d with a good iudgement conioyned with a religious conscience could either accept or affect the Protestants new coyned Gospell You request me to set B downe briefly such reasons as induced me therevnto the which suite I could not denie for both religion and affection vrged me to satisfie so iust a desire For I must confesse I loue you as a man and as an honest ciuill Gentleman and most gladly I would haue occasion to loue you as a Catholick Gentleman for it is great pitty that such a multitude of detessable errours and hainous heresies should lodge in so rarely qualified a soule I haue penned them after an vnaccustomed maner following C the fashion of Schooles in most of them after a syllogisticall Why not in all methode to the intent that if you should shew them to your Ministers which swarme about you they might not haue such free scope and libertie to range abroad with their idle discourses as they vse to take vailing their confused conceipts with a multitude of affected phrases thereby more easilie to deceiue the simple and to loath the learned Wherefore I beseech you if any such itching spirit shall D attempt an answer to intreat him to performe it briefly orderly and seriously This I request for that I perceiue that Protestants cannot answer with breuitie because their religion lacketh both certaintie and perspicuitie extreame hard or impossible it is to replie without prolixitie where there is no truth nor veritie And therefore I request you as you loue me to will them to consider well before they answer ill and not to replie with rashnesse least they retreate with deliberation to their vtter shame and confusion And that you may perceiue how my wonder rather deserued approbation then admiration and for that order is a fauorite of memory I thought good to reduce all my reasons vnto two heads Witte and Wiâ—l Knowledge and affection faith and good life because the nature of heresie hath euer beene such as did not onely inueagle the witte with errors but also seduce the will with occasions of inordinate affections I say then that no excellent good witte lincked with a religious conscience can either accept or affect the Protestants new coined Gospell for good witts and iudgements assisted with Gods grace may easily perceiue the truth yea by the force of their very naturall faculties they may iudge credibly of the trueth once proposed and without great difficultie discerne the absurditie of an vntrue religion vertuous and well inclined affections which are the bases of quiet secure and religious consciences abhorre and detest such principles as either dishonour God abase mans nature are occasioÌ„ of sinne fauour iniquitie or in any sort diminish deuotion or pietie And therefore all these insequent articles shall stand vpon these two foundations to wit that the Protestants religion debarreth the witte from right vnderstanding the true faith and the will from following of any vertue or godlinesse Protestant THe occasion of his writing as he professeth is the satisfying of a friends request for the sauing of his
3. That if they pray for vs wee must pray to them 4. That if the Angells be ministering spirits Therfore the Saints departed are so 2. Neither is there any Communion with soules in purgatory because there is no purgatory 1. Cor. 3. 15. Saint Paul speaks not of purgatory For the fire thereof burnes the worke men not the worke but the fire there meÌ„tioned burnes the works not all works neither but onely false doctrine The latter place being vnderstood 1. Cor. 15. 29. 2. of purgatory will not serue the Apostles purpose How can the resurrection of the body be proued by praying for the soules in purgatory Papist They that acknowledge not that Remission of sinnes is an effect of Baptisme deny the article of beleeuing the remission of sinnes But the Protestants acknowledge not that remission of sinnes is an effect of Baptisme Therefore the Protestants deny the article of beleeuing the remission of sinnes Protestant The proposition is false because not all haue Baptismum flaminis the Baptisme of the spirit that haue Baptismum fluminis the baptisme of water we acknowledge that whosoeuer is baptised by the spirit hath receiued forgiuenesse of sinnes which no man hath which shal be damned as many shal be that haue bene baptised Baptisme is the Lauer of regeneration to as many as haue the spirit added therevnto because then they haue remission of sinnes sealed vp vnto them The Sacrament of penance is a Popish fancie our Sauiour Iâ—â— 20. 23. ordained no such Sacrament but onely affirmed that the worke of the ministery shal be effectuall to the remitting and retaining of sinne We deny not that our sinnes are perfectly forgiuen but that by forgiuenesse of sinnes the power of sinne is wholy destroyed in vs at once for the destruction of sinne comes by sanctification not by iustification and it is alwaies in this life imperfect Papist They that affirme that Christ is God of himselfe and not God of God deny that he is the sonne of God But the protestants affirme that Christ is God of himselfe and not God of God Therefore the Protestants deny that Christ is the sonne of God Protestant I deny your proposition For Christ is not the sonne of God in respect of the Godhead if he be then must the father and the holy Ghost also be the sonne because they are one and the same God with the sonne He that precisely vrgeth the naturall generation of man as a paterne of the spirituall begeting of the sonne of God will make the sonne a diuers God from the father The substance of God is essentiall to euery person in Trinitie onely thus farre that euery person is God not that the God-head is the essence of euery person The Protestants beleeue and confesse with the councill of Nice that Christ is God of God very God of very God not that he hath his God-head from the father for then they should giue aduantage to Arius who was condemned by that councill for he would readily answer that Christ must needs be inferiour to God his father because the father hath his God-head of himselfe and the sonne not of himselfe but of his father Besides hereby we should make two distincte Gods one that hath the God-head of himselfe and another that hath it not of himselfe but of him that hath it of himselfe Papist They that deny that by descending into hell is meant that Christ went in soule into the place of the damned deny the articles of descension into hell But the Protestants deny that by descending into hell is meant that Christ went in soule into the place of the damned Therefore the protestants deny the article of descension into hell Protestant I deny your proposition Because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 properly signifies nothing but the estate of the dead and is not to be expounded hell but onely where the circumstances of the place in which it is vsed doe necessarily require that exposition but here there is no such necessitie The protestants doe not interpret the descent of suffering the wrath of God in soule though they acknowledge that doctrine to be sound and thus answere this cauillers illations Papist Christ bare the wrath of God Therefore he despaired of his saluation Protestant I deny the consequence For Christ knew both that God loued his person because he was his sonne and that by the power of his Godhead he was to free himselfe from eternall damnation Papist Christ suffered the wrath of God therefore God hated him he hated God Protestant Againe I deny your consequence Our Sauiours person was dearely beloued of God his father though being considered as a sinner such as by imputation he was for a time he was in that respect to God for vs as euery on of vs is in himselfe to God It is not certaine that in the punishment of the damned there shall be hatred of God as a part thereof and if it were yet Christ is exempted from so much of the punishment as cannot be without sinne Papist Christ suffered the wrath of God therefore he was tormented with anguish of mind for his offences Protestant The consequence should be therefore he was tormented with anguish of minde for those offences for which he felt the wrath of God But these were not his sinnes in whom there was not the least Tainte of sinne but ours Article 5. Papist The Protestants haue no means to determine controuersies and abolish heresies Protestant The propositioÌ„ is false for the scripture hath light enough in it selfe to discouer and abolish heresies which they that wil may by conference of diuerse places discerne off Looke my answere to the second and third Articles There follows an extrauagant syllogisme which belongs to the 6. Article of the second part this it is Papist Whosoeuer exhorteth vs to doubt of that which we are bound to beleeue by faith exhorteth vs to infidelity But S. Paule exhorteth vs to doubt of our saluation which we are bound to beleeue by faith according to the Protestants Religion Ergo S. Paule exhorteth vs to infidelity Protestant I deny your assumption S. Paule doth not exhort vs to doubt of our saluation but commaunds vs to vse the meanes whereby we may come to assurance viz. still to stand in feare and watch ouer our selues least by carelesnesse we fall to sinning to which we are alwayes subiect in this life The Protestants doe not teach that whosoeuer is not assured of his saluation without any doubting is in the state of damnation But that euery man must labour to come to the perfection as of all other graces so of assurance too the meanes of attaining whereto are feare and trembling by which wee may be kept from sinning and so strengthned in assurance of saluation Papist Articles concerning good life and piety Article I. The Protestants are bound in conscience neuer to aske God forgiuenes of their sinnes Whosoeuer is assured by faith that his sinnes are forgiuen him