Selected quad for the lemma: conscience_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
conscience_n	idol_n	knowledge_n	weak_a	1,298	5	9.3976	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10973	Two dialogues, or conferences (about an old question lately renued, and by the schismaticall company, both by printed pamphlets, and otherwise to the disturbance of the Churches quiet, and of peaceable minds, very hotly pursued.) Concerning kneeling in the very act of receiuing the sacramental bread and wine, in the Supper of the Lord The former betweene two ministers of the word, the one refractarie, and depriued; the other not so. The latter betweene an humorous schismatike and a setled professor.	Rogers, Thomas, d. 1616.	1608 (1608)	STC 21241; ESTC S116109	75,976	132

holy vnto the Lord without which or the like they differ not from things common and prophane tables Your words be reproachfull both to the holy and to the Church of England S. May not this promise seeme at least to the simple to make way at least to the Popish consecration P. You would belike haue vs blindely to come and take the Sacrament as we do our ordinary food or if we vse any words though neuer so heauenly we do Popishly consecrate in your opinion The words and prayers vttered do make the bread wine holy which before were common This is consecration we acknowledge yet not Popish but Christian S. How grieuous a sin it is to scandalize the weak may appeare by the words of Christ Viz who-soeuer shall offend one of these little ones it were better for him that a mill-stone were hanged about his necke and that hee were drowned in the depth of the Sea P. Our sauiour speaketh against giuing offence by open breach of Gods holy commandements or any of them If you can shew any precept of God either by the Churches enioyning vs to kneele or by our kneeling violated then you may iustly conclude vs to be subiect to the mentioned cursse If you cannot whosoeuer is or be offended weake or strong their offence rashly is assumed not giuen and they be more to feare the wrath of God for being offended without cause then wee for kneeling hauing no word of God to the contrary S. Saint Paule likewise doth say if meat offend my brother I will eate no flesh while the world standeth that I may not offend my brother P. The like are you and I and all true Christians to say touching all things in our power to do or leaue vndone but when by authority we are directed as at the receiuing of the Sacramaent we are then are we not for offending of others pretending them-selues to be weake to leaue that vndone which wee are inioyned to performe Disobedience is as the sin of witch-craft offensiue to all good mindes obedience vnto lawfull Iniunctions may be offensiue either to some weake or wicked persons but neuer-the-lesse to be yeelded except God say to the contrary without scruple of conscience S. What an offence or scandall is the Apostle sheweth in the same chap. viz. The occasiō of falling to the weake P. As how S. The particular offence he speaketh of is this Notwithstanding the Ghospell was preached at conuenient time and that by the Apostles yet many wanted knowledge euen vnto that time did eate as a thing sacrifised vnto an Idol of whome if any should see a man indued with knowledge sit at table in the Idolls Temple his weake consciences might occasinatly be emboldened to eate those things which are sacrificed to Idols P. This instance of yours is to be regarded The Apostle speaketh of Idolatries or meates not consecrated but euen sacrificed vnto Idols This meate so abused the Apostle condemneth not as vnlawfull to bee eaten of Christians But hee blameth those Christians who in the Idols temple among Idolaters did eate the same meate to the offence of all Christians especially of the weake Now be it that Kneeling as the meate sacrificed vnto Idols hath beene abused of Papists yet as meate so sacrificed might bee both sold in the market and bought and eaten of Christians priuately or without offence so the gesture of Kneeling abused by Idolaters may be well vsed of Christians Which may show how farre you Schismatickes are out of the way of truth and from the minde of the first and primitiue Christians who thinke that nothing eyther deuised or abused by Papists may or can bee well vsed in reformed Churches and therefore doe vtterly condemne among other things this our Kneeling But if you finde vs to kneele in the idols temple offending thereby the weake and making them to fall and confirming of Idolaters then deserue wee the blame which those temporizers at Corinth deseruedly did incurre But this you charge vs not withall vnlesse you thinke our Temples to bee Idols houses and all communicants to be idolaters Besides it was free for Christians to eate or not to eate those meates so it were not with offence to the weake but it is not free for vs of the Church of England to Kneele or not to Kneele at the holy Communion For whether we please the weake or offend them we are necessarily to kneele otherwise if we kneele not wee may please the weake you speake of but shall offend our gouernors and peaceable men whom we ought to please and if we Kneele wee shall offend the weake but please others whome we are more to regarde In this case therefore wherein wee cannot choose but offend some or other wee choose rather to offend the weake then the strong priuate then publick persons a few than an whole state yea wee choose rather to doe our duties conscionably then to offend for we offend not in obeying lawfull directions but they offend whosoeuer they be which take offence afore it is giuen S. If Saul would neuer eate flesh rather then he would offend in this case because in so doing hee should sinne against Christ how dare a Christian hauing knowledge Kneele in the presence of any who for want of knowledge receiues superstitiouslie P. In his case not in this case about Kneeling Paul would not offend This case of ours is not Pauls case For touching meates Paul was at liberty to eate or not to eate neither God nor by his authority man hauing forbidden meate or any kinde of meate but lawfull power hath imposed this order of Kneeling vpon our shoulders whereas he therefore was free we are not Where orders well were established who euer was more pliant to obserue them who a greater aduersarie to those which would not obey and fulfill them then this Apostle Paul without respect of any seeming to bee weake In this case where orders bee set downe for the well ordering of Christians said he euer he would neuer keep them then thereby offend the weake Nay he both prescribed orders to be kept not to bee contemned and reproued them which would not keepe them but were contentious Therefore not after the example onely of the Apostle but according to the commandemēt also of God we may yeeld obedience to the higher powers and their lawfull Impositions about matters in their owne nature till they bee either prescribed or prohibited indifferent such is our Kneeling at the holy Table where in charitie we are to thinke none superstitiously doe receiue and if some do it is their priuate offence no publike fault of the whole Church Furthermore when you grant that some persons very religiously receiue when others superstitiously doe so see you not how with one and the same breath you graunt the said Kneeling to bee a gesture indifferent which before you denied abused by some well vsed and without sinne by others Which ouer-throweth vtterly your

so the consequent in this your Enthymeme viz. Kneeling is to be remoued from the supper of the Lord is of no validitie both because it followeth not from the premises and is forced and inferred against your conscience THE FOVRTH OBIECTION S. IT is an offence to the weake Ergo. c. Mat. 18. 6. seq Rom. 14. 20 21. 1. Cor. 8. 12 13 10. 28 29 30. R. It is an offence to the weake Ergo c. What Till I know your consequent this shall be my answer vnto the Antecedent how our Sauiour speaketh Mat. 18 seq of such defaults as whereby other men either by erroneous doctrine or vitious conuersation be offended or hindered from their proceedings either in godlines or good maners now Saint Paul in all the places by you quoted speaketh of not offending in matters and things in their owne nature indifferent neither prohibited by God in his word nor by any lawfull ordinance of man He that openly any thing either doth or saith forbidden of God both sinneth against God giueth offence to man and may expect without repentance a fearfull and double punishment both for his fact which is ill for the example he therby giueth which is worse Againe he that in things indifferent and at mans libertie to doe or leaue vndone hath not a tender care of weake Christians in his doing sheweth that there is not that charitie in him nor regard of his brethren which God requireth But though God doth not yet if his deputies the Gods terrestriall do enioyne any thing to be done not opposite to Gods word and tending vnto concord among men order and comelinesse and we will not obey nor fulfill their directions for offending some persons pretending themselues to be weak then are we so far from doing wel as we do sin both against God man in not fulfilling their commandements If therefore charitie by the texts of Saint Paul bindeth vs in things vncommanded or not forbidden to respect the weake much more pietie and dutie towards our gouernors should incite vs to do the things enioined by iust lawes Disobedience to the lawfull ordinances of godly gouernors is not only scandalous for the present but may proue very dangerous in the consequent Wherefore a wise man should not regard these lesser scandals of litle weake ones in comparison of the inconueniences great offences that arise may follow through the manifest contempt of lawes established And in cases such as this Kneeling is wherein we cannot chuse but offend either by doing or not doing that which is commanded better is it to offend the lesse then the greater a few priuate persons then a whole State and better barely to offend then to offend and sin too by fact and example as by wilfull and open disobedience we do In this point touching Kneeling I know no weake ones that iustly may be offended and if there bee they are not much to be regarded considering the long and constant preaching of the truth in this land touching these and the like points in controuersie It is a notable saying of Zanchius and approued by all learned and iudicious Diuines that for a time some thing is to be yeelded vnto these weake ones which you speake of euen till the truth may be taught them But after that the truth about these matters in question and the like hath bin set forth and laid open so as nothing can iustly be obiected against the same and yet purposely they will abide doubtful and vnresolued then is not their infirmitie any longer either by simulation or dissimulation to bee nourished Est enim pertinacia potiùs quàm infirmitas For it is rather to be counted frowardnesse then weaknes So Zanchius S. As there haue beene so there is and will bee alwayes weake ones in the Church of God both because it is Gods blessing which he bestoweth when and where hee listeth that maketh strong and for that there be alwayes some new borne babes succeeding one another R. Weake or strong simple or wise yong or old whosoeuer al must yeeld obedience to the orders of that church whereof they are members in all such matters as bee indifferent and not repugnant to the word of God S. Kneeling in the act of receiuing is not yet proued to be a thing indifferent R. I thinke your self will not say that Kneeling in it owne nature is either good or euill then must it needes bee indifferent euen as Sitting is Ista per se non sunt Idolatrica speaking among other things of this Kneeling now in question These are not things of themselues idolatrous saith Beza Therefore indifferent S. In things indifferent those in authoritie must limit their precepts by the word of God which willeth that the weake be not offended by any brother whatsoeuer R. Authoritie in making lawes must respect alwayes the common and publique good not what will please this or that man If the Church should stay from making of Constitutions til she can be assured that all her children will be pleased with her doings hardly if euer shall she make any lawes and so would brawles and disorders without end or number increase abound And hauing once made them to abrogate or not to execute them for feare of displeasing the weake what were it but either childish leuitie or ridiculous lenitie THE FIFT OBIECTION S IT strengthens the superstitious and idolatrous Papists in their Bread-worship Ergo. 1. Cor. 10. 32. R. The Papists they terme the Table of the Lord prophane and detestable and deeme of our Communion as of Idolatrous and sacrilegious superstition they thinke it better to eate Ratsbane then to participate of our bread and to drinke Dragons gall and Vipers blood then our wine this they termesacrilegious that poisoned When they take offence at the verie substance are they strengthened at the accidents When they abhor the matter take they comfort at our forme and maner of receiuing the same And be they strengthened thereby in their Bread-worship Assure your selfe it is all one to the Papists whether wee kneele or sit or walke or amble the whole action or ministration thereof whatsoeuer it bee is to them a like vile and abominable You cannot proue our Kneeling in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord to be a strengthning of the Papists in their Bread-worship but our not Kneeling doth strengthen the licentious and lawlesse Brownists in their irreligious contemning of our Communions S. That Kneeling doeth strengthen the Papists in their Bread-worship may bee proued both by reason and experience R. By reason how S. For that superstition and idolatrie being planted in our nature as a most fertile soile will not be destroied if there be left behind so much as a string thereof R. You cannot thinke of sure I am you cannot name a Church wherin there be not if not some branches yet some sprigs or at least strings of superstition and idolatrie will those strings