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B13698 A dialogue or conference betweene Irenæus and Antimachus, about the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England: by Samuel Gardiner, Doctor of Diuinitie Gardiner, Samuel, b. 1563 or 4. 1605 (1605) STC 11575; ESTC S102819 49,951 71

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actions it maketh much that the Apostle saith All thinges are cleane to those that are cleane as that also which he saith to Timothie Tit. 1.15 Euery creature of God is good 1. Tim. 4.4 Now it is not necessarie that we should haue expresse mention of euery thing brought into vse in the Church in the holy Scriptures it is enough that by faith in generalitie we know that indifferent things cannot pollute or defile such that are of a pure minde and conscience Thirdly I wold further wish you to giue great respect to ecclesiasticall lawes that tend to order grauitie decencie and are not blinded with any superstition or impietie Socrates would not weare Siconian shooes though they were well made and fit for his feete because they were not comely for his calling But this exception taketh no place in the prescribed habite and attire of Ministers it beeing as graue and seemely as any can be deuised The very Turkes themselues are deuoted wholly to the custome of their Countrey in their forme of raiment according to their degrees and shall not Christians shew constancie in this case according to comelinesse and sobrietie Customes are not to giue place to mens humours but men must resigne their humours to customes vnlesse they can inferre better reasons against them Much have beene attributed by the better sort to good and honest customes Zacharias did not onely performe sacrifices but it is said Luke 1. that he did this dutie according to custome Luke 2. The parents of Christ came yeerely to Ierusalem to fulfill the custome Our Sauiour went to the Mount of Oliues to pray Mat● 26. 1 Cor. 11. it being his custome so to doe The Apostle Paul citeth the custome of the woman whilst they came together to the Church for praier sake Yea bad men haue yeelded to the customes of their times to grant such libertie which otherwise of their owne accorde without the authoritie of prescription Matt 29. Acts 25. they would not haue affoorded Pilate was contented to haue Christ loosed alleadging for it the custome of the Iewes which was to dismisse a prisoner yeerely at this feast of Passeouer Festus the Tribune of the people vrgeth the custome of the Romans against the Iewes which intended the Apostles death whereby hee escaped a strong and strange conspiracie proiected against him The Lord is witnesse to my soule how little my meaning is by these illustrations to holde vp the head of absurde customes that aime at superstition But mine eyes heerin are bent vppon the customes of our church by such examples as these to encourage all of the aduerse parte to conformitie thereunto and not so boldely and baldly as they doe to abase our honest customes Fourthly If I may also be meekely heard of you I would put you in minde of your obedience to lawe and hovv ridiculous and contemptible it would be to an estate to repeale and change Lawes enacted by graue and learned iudgement at cuery ydle motion of a newfangle male content It was the positiue injunction of the Locrians Demosthenes couer Demoer as Demosthenes beareth witnesse that hee that should offer to put vppe a new Lawe should come with an halter aboue his necke to the Parlement that if there were better reason against his lawe hee should be trussed vp for it I wish not the vndooing of any ones life that hath a forge in his head for new lawes but I wish him seuere censure that is too busie with his billes and tender vs for Cannons and Constitutions the crochets conceits of his wooll-gathering wittes The Ephesian Heraclitus as Laertius dooth report saieth That Cittizens ought to fight no lesse for their lawes than for their walles The Graecians had their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their Prefects and Officers whose charge it was to protect enacted lawes and to censure the delinquents Cice. pro Cluent They confidered the necessitie and the nature of publique lawes the Oratour calling them Vincula reipublica furdamentum libertatis fontem aequitatis The bonds of the common wealth the foundation of libertie and the fountaine of equitie What shall then become of the seuerall partes that are knitte together by the bandes of good lawes and doe very well when the bondes thereof are broken must not the whole structure and composition come downe when the foundation is vndermined yee may not disturbe and trouble a publique streame that is to relieue the countrey vnder paine of a great punishment but the fountaine of our welfare is disquieted in our immoderate contentious communications For how can a plant thriue that is often remooued It is Senecaos proposition and it is true in obseruation Non conualescit planta quae saepiut transfertur And this hath allusion to the alteration of lawes by Seneca in Oedipode Nan expedit concutere soelicem statum It is not good to be busie with a well ordered state Plato would not haue a common wealth to be cloyed with many lawes Fewer lawes then we haue already and better executed might serue our turne And commonly it is seene that the older are the better It is the Item that Tacitus giueth vs Super ommibus negotijs melius rectius elim prouisum quae connectu●●ur in deterius mutari In all matters that which is best and rightest hath beene fareseene and exchange happeneth to the woorst Wherefore Valerius would haue nothing abated of olde custome but woulde haue euery article and particle consist in his former vigor In minimis rebus omnia antiquae consuetudinis momenta seruanda In the triflingest things that are all the appurtenances to antient vse are to be retained Of which minde was the Emperour Augustus as may appeare out of his admonition to the Senate saying Obseruate leges quas habetis viriliter ne mutate vllas na●● quae manent in cedem statu et sipeiora sunt vtilior a sunt quàm ea quae semper mutantur et stapparent meliora esse Obserue roundly the lawes which ye haue already alter them not for those that doe stand in the state they were before albeit they be worser are more vsefull than those that are alwayes chaunged though they seeme to be better Thucidides li. 6 With whom consenteth Altibiades in Thucidide Holding that people to be in best case who are gouerned by their present customs and lawes without alteration although they be not so good The Epidaurians inhibited their people to trauell into forraine parts or to vse traffike in strange places fearing left they should bring home with them forraine and strange fashions It is daungerous to pull downe an olde wall but more daungerous to pull downe olde lawes Sodaine alteration as it is perillous to the naturall bodie so it is as much hurtfull to the body politique A change must come in testudinc● gradu sensim sine sensu to be the better borne Wee see how the dayes alter in their encrease and decrease as the alteration is
when they fulfill their wicked lusts so the simple and vnskilful are of enmis-led in the vain● conceit and imagination of zeale This was the zeale that intoxicated the Iewes of which S. Paul saith They haue the zeale of God but not in iudgement 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not according to knowledge This knowledge like Captaine Ioas should goe in and out before our zeale and lighten the way of our zeale and direct as the pillar of fire that gaue light to the people of Israel in the night season As Iohn Baptist was the fore-runner of Christ so ought knowledge to be the fore-runner of zeale to make readie a way for zeale as Iohn made readie the way to Christ Knowledge is like the starre that led the Easterne Wise-men to Christ Math. 3. that will leade our zeale vnto the truth The spirit of zeale is sampled to fire yet a boll of water is to be cast vpon it somwhat to quallifie the fury of this fire Wherefore as Christ baptized with fire so Iohn the Baptist did baptize with water A great heate is naturally in zeale which by letting in acoole winde and ayre Acts 2. would be moderated wherefore as the Holy-ghost came downe in fire so he came downe in a mightie winde that doth much abate the heate of the fire There is a golden meane as in all other things so in Knowledge in Zeale Rom. 12.3 Exod. 16.18 according to this saying of the Apostle Be wise with sobrietie It was vnlawfull in the Iewes to gather too much or too little Manna wherefore their measure was appointed them and they were stinted in the proportion of it which hath a good application to zeale that it neither may redound or bee defectiue Isaiah was willed to cry Isai 58. and to cry somewhat highly but he was not bidde●●are and to rende his throate and the ayre with his voyce Zeale and that in some height is good but there may too much strength be put to it which will quite marre it Mar. 10.28 It was zeale in the Disciples that wrought with them when they forsooke all to follow Christ and it was good and well esteemed of by Christ And it was zeale that kindled the coales of wrath in the breasts of the Disciples against the Samaritans Luke 9.55 when they would haue plucked fire from heauen to haue consumed them if Christ would haue suffered them but this was preposterous inconsiderate braine-sicke wherefore Christ controled it Iud. 4. As Barak would not goe to warre without Deborah against Sisara so let vs not warre with our zeale without our other companion of knowledge Zeale without knowledge is as Sampson without eyes who could not take hold of the arches of the house it cannot finde out the principall things Vaesoli woe be to him that is alone saith Wisedome so wo be to zeale alone not accompanied with knowledge Zeale and knowledge of God 1. Kings 20. are as the two Lyons that were the supporters of Salomons Throne And he that combineth them and coupleth them together he shall be like Moses in meekenesse and Phineas in feruour Wherefore as wine is delaide by water so is zeale with knowledge As the Pinnesse without a Pilot is in perill of rockes and as the bodie without the eye is in hazzard of falling so zeale without knowledge that is the eye of zeale and ruleth it is in danger of mis carrying For it is not a bare good intention and zeale that must iustifie our good actions but such mature knowledge must leade vs forth to them as we may be able to warrant them The great variance among vs I wot well not for so great causes I feare me is not warrantable When the Lord willed Eliah to stand vppon the mount before the Lord it is saide 1. Kings 19. that a mightie strong winde rent the mountaines and brake the rockes before the Lord but the Lord was not in the winde and after the winde came an earth-quake but the Lord was not in the earth-quake and after the earth-qake came fire but the Lord was not in the fire and after the fire came a still and soft voice and there the Lord vvas In the stormie vvindes and tempests of the Church that offer to shake it in the verie foundation in the earth-quake and fire of our endlesse contentions the Lord is not but he is in the still voyce that seeketh and ensueth the peace of Ierusalem Antun I haue nothing else to say in the cause but I promised to call for your counsell and therefore if you please addresse your selfe to that Iren. My counsell shall be first That you weigh the points in controuersie betweene vs in equall ballances and that you striue not by inuention of argument to hang lumpes of lead to the heeles of them to make them heauier then they are of themselues You may weigh our cause vneuenly on the weights two wayes for in any of these two there may be deceit in all weights First when a thing is weighed ouer hastily Be not therfore too readie rash in iudgement in condemning such things as may well in any free estate be tolerated Secondly when one part of the ballance is heauier then another which is when thou commest aggrauated with preiudicate affections against the setled ceremonies when thou art rather led by thy wil then reason When you haue set these ceremonies vpon the tenters of your inuectiues and grounde the face of them betweene the mill-stones of your fore-stalde affections you shall neuer perswade the wise that either they are of hurtefull nature or otherwise contrarie to the word of God but in ordinary vnderstanding they will be deemed to be indifferent Secondly you are in the next place to be aduised how you wrong other Churches by your bitter sermons against these ceremonies which haue alwaies hetherto entertained them as lawfull and laudable Iob 47. Eliphas was very imperious ouer Iob not considering himselfe The Iewes very notable hypocrites themselues and loose liuers snebbed and snatched vp the Gentiles at their pleasure which said Isai 63.5 Stand apart come not neere to mee for I am belier then thou We are not ignorant how farre the authoritie of the Church may extend and wee willingly confesse that it ought to rule by the Scepter of the word and that it may not any way countermaund that that standeth like Mount Syon that may not be remooued the whole world the Lords building and the heauens the beautifull roofe thereof must perish before any tittle of the word must perish and fall to the ground But of this we are well assured that it hath leaue and libertie to authorize ceremonies that are of mixt kinde and that we are neither to condemne such or vnreuerently to esteeme them I agree with thee that which is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14 2 yet that wee may carry a quiet conscience and haue the testimoniall thereof in our