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B11734 The vnreasonablenesse of the separation Made apparant, by an examination of Mr. Iohnsons pretended reasons, published an. 1608. Wherby hee laboureth to iustifie his schisme from the church assemblies of England. Bradshaw, William, 1571-1618.; Ames, William, 1576-1633. Manudicition for Mr. Robinson. 1614 (1614) STC 3532; ESTC S113892 55,662 116

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THE VNREASONABLENESSE of the separation Made apparant by an examination of Mr. Iohnsons pretended reasons published an 1608. Wherby hee laboureth to iustifie his schisme from the Church Assemblies of England 1. Tim 1.5.6.7 The end of the commandement is charitie out of a pure heart and of a good conscience and of fayth vnfayned From which some hauing swa●●ed haue turned a side vnto vaine Jangling desiring to bee teachers of the Law vnderstanding neither what they say nor wherof they affirme AT DORT Printed by George Waters 1614. TO THE WELL meaning Reader THink not euill if thou meanest well wee intend not to insult over him that is downe or to pursue a man that is flying of himselfe but to lend him a hand that knoweth not well which way to take Mr. Iohnson in deed is rather to bee pitied then much opposed wee need but stand still as lookers on hee falleth willingly on his owne sword but that his fall may bee a rising againe not onely to himself but to others also both armour-bearers followers of his it was iudged necessarie to guide them a litle while their heads are dizzy bring them fairly from of the bogge they haue stood on It is not Mr. Johnson that is dealt with alone for change the name onely and put in Mr. Ainsworth or any such themselues will not say but the reasons are theirs and the answer to them as well as to him Jt may bee that they hauing lesse acquaintance with logicall formes of dispute will looke for large discourse or heaped quotations out of scripture But reason will tell them that many words doe rather hide them vntie the knot of a syllogisme and much quoting may proue some-thing but answereth not directly to any thing Now the wrighters meaning was not to gather proofes but to poynt at the weaknesse of such as these men haue gathered Read therfore with vnderstanding and learn a mean betwixt All and Nothing THE MAINE CONclusion of Mr. Johnsons Reasons as it is propounded by himself is this That it is not lawfull to heare or haue any spiritual communion wit the present Ministery of the Church Assemblies of Englande WHich hee laboureth to proue 1. By Reasons as hee fancieth drawne from Scripture and other Testimonies 2. By Argumentes collected from the writeinges of them whom hee stileth in disdaine forward Preachers And this hee performeth as far as the remainders of his logick skill will giue him leaue in moode and figure But the figure for the moste part is of his owne shapeing such as neuer came forth of any logick Schooles yet feing the truth hee opposeth receaueth noe disadvantage therby I can for my owne parte be content that his Syllogismes stil retaine those formes and figures that hee hath put vpon them and spare the labour of Translating them into nue And so without any further expence of wordes I come to the Examination of the first sort of Reasons THE FIRST SORTE OF Reasons from the Scriptures and other Testimonies Examined The first Reason Examined All are bound in the worship of God to heare and communicate onely with that ministery which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church for that worke But the present Ministery of the Church Assemblies of England is not that which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church for the worke of his Ministery Therfore it is not lawfull for any in the worship of God to heare or communicate with the present Ministery of the Church Assemblies of England Answere Not to contend about the Proposition I deny the Assumption and affirme That the present Ministery of our Church Assemblies how soever it may in some particuler parts of the execution happely be defectiue in some places is for the substance thereof that very same Ministery which Christ hath set in his Church for the worke of his ministery whether it bee the ministery of those which hee calleth the forward Preachers or of those which being qualified according to the true intēt of the lawe do subscribe and conforme according to the laws of the State Fr. Ihon. The Ministery which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church is of Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 But the present Ministery of the Church of England is none of these spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Therefore it is not the Ministery which Christ hath giuen and set in his Church Answere The present Ministery of the Church of England 1. of the Church Assemblies of England is the Ministery of Pastors and Teachers Fr. Iohn The present Ministery of the Church of England is of Prelates Priestes and Deacons But nether Prelates Priestes nor Deacons of that Church are Pastors or Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Therefore it is none of those spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Answere I denye both Preposition and Assumption For 1. Though our Preletes doe sometimes voluntarily and occasionnally performe the same worke and seruice in some of our Church Assemblies which our ordinary Ministers doe yet their Prelaticall or Episcopall office or Ministery is not the proper Ministery of any of our Church Assemblies But in the intent of our lawes their propre Ministery consists in overseeing the Ministers and Ministery of our Church Assemblies 2. Though sometimes our Ministers be called PRIESTS and DEACONS yet the MINISTERY vnder those names assigned vnto them and which they exercise is not the proper and essentiall Ministery of either Priestes or Deacons but of Pastors and Teachers Soe that they are onely in aequivocation and name or Metaphorically Priestes and Deacons But really Pastors and Teachers and therfore such Priests and Deacons may bee and indeede and truth are such Pastors and Teachers as are spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 Fr. Iohn The Preposition is manifest 1. The Law of that Church admitteth not any other Ministery but that of their Prelacie Priesthoode and Deaconry receaued amongst them selues or from the Papistes 2. Their Constitution is such as all the Ministers of that Church must bee Priests or Deacons and theise also either in a Superior degree as the Prelates Arch. Bishops Suffraganes c. or in an inferior as Parsons Vicars Stipendaries Chaplins Answere 1. It is not necessary that the Ministery of a contrey or nation should be alwaies such as the law establisheth or admitteth The Ministery at least in some places may be good though the law in generall should admit and establishe such a one as is bad as on the contrarye side the ministery may at some times and in some cases be bad though the laws admit establish neuer soe good for the Gouernors of Churches and common wealths who haue the dispensation of lawes may in their Christian wisedome and moderation permitt a ministery in sundrie respects different from that which the laws require yea and our owne Gouernors in fact haue permitted the ministery of some who neuer receiued ordination either from Papists or themselues And hee cannot be ignorant but that some by connivencie are yet suffred