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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27046	A third defence of the cause of peace proving 1. the need of our concord, 2. the impossibility of it, on the terms of the present impositions against the accusations and storms of, viz., Mr. John Hinckley, a nameless impleader, a nameless reflector, or Speculum, &c., Mr. John Cheny's second accusation, Mr. Roger L'Strange, justice, &c., the Dialogue between the Pope and a fanatic, J. Varney's phanatic Prophesie / by Richard Baxter.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1681 (1681)	Wing B1419; ESTC R647	161,764	297

and are hunted and laid in Jayls with Rogues 2. Can I expect that men that never were studious or bookish especially in matters of Divinity and Holiness but have been bred up in fulness and pleasure in courtship and converse with such as themselves who will take him for a Fanatick that doth but talk much and seriously of Heaven or Scripture or things Divine that scarce ever heard what a Nonconformist hath to say for himself nor ever seriously examined the cause or read a Book which openeth their case in all their lives I say can I expect that such should be able or willing to understand us I mean not as if All were such but it hath been my hard hap to meet with few persons even of Gentile Education who ask me Why do you not Conform that do not presently shew me in Conference that they are quite out of their Element when they meddle with such matters and talk of things which they never studied or understood and indeed do not think it belongeth to them but to the Church And that is to those Church-men that the King and the Patron please to chuse which maketh the Papists say the Laity of the Church of England cry down our believing as the Church believeth when they do the same by their own Church-men The Question is but whether it be our Church-men or theirs that are to be believed And when Kings were on out side it was our Church-men that were to be believed and when they are on their side it is theirs And Mr. Hutchinson alias Berry spake harshly when he said in Print that there was so little of conscionable Religion in the people of the Church of England that if one were but toucht with the Conscience of Religion he turned Puritan o● Papist I shewed him the injury of his Speech but I would he had much less occasion for it Dr. Stillingfleet told me that there was scarce an● of his Hearers or Readers how mean soever ther● capacities were but could discern the weakness of no Evasions I dwell near the Verge of his Parish I have talkt with some of his Auditors and enquired of many others and I think verily he is more in the right than I at first believed For I finde that abundance of his Auditors hear him some once some twice some thrice a year and some of them know not whether Christ be God or man or both or whether he had a humane Soul or what a man differs from a Beast nor what is the true sence of many if any Articles of the Creed And I am perswaded these whom he calleth of the meanest capacity are the likeliest men to discern the weakness of My Arguments I have talked also with divers of his Readers and I found that they understood this much that Dr. Stillingfleet wrote his Sermon against the Nonconformists and that he is a Dean and may be greater and is a man that can talk with any of us It may be some that I have not met with know more as being of a higher Form and some few I have met with that indeed know more and those lament the Doctor 's undertaking and when they have read my Answer or Account confess that they cannot justifie his Charge Could I but tell how to get most of the Church of England to know what Religion is and to be seriously of any Religion and to understand Baptism and the Lords Supper the Creed Lords Prayer and Ten Commandments how boldly should I expect their Christian sense and candour in our Cause But till then I confess that the Accusers have the advantage of us and their Books unread will do more than ours § 5. And it is a great advantage which they have got by the Oxford-Act of banishing above five Miles from Cities and Corporations all that swear not as is there required For though the King's Wisdome and Clemency have let down he Floud-gates and somewhat stopt the impetus of the Clergy-stream yet it was many years before Nonconformists durst be openly seen in Cities or Corporations much less at Court or among great Men and modesty and prudence yet obligeth them to abstain from the presence of their Superiours where the Law forbids it so that the Ears of Country-Nobles and most of our Rulers hear but what our Accusers say and have no knowledge of our Cause but as described by them whose descriptions are many of them no more credible than if they said that we are Turks § 6. And their Art hath got us to such a straight that whether we speak or are silent we are guilty and whatever we do except swearing saying and doing as they require it shall turn to our Accusation For instance Do some think that Dr. Stillingfleet is in the right that pronouneeth Damnation without Repentance against them that prefer not the purest Church and thereupon come not to the Parish-Assemblies Against such they cry out Separatists Schismaticks preparing for Rebellion away with them execute the Laws But if others do as I do who daily joyn with the Parish-Church in all their Worship and Communicate in their Sacrament and oppose Separation Some say Such are like Ap● that are the ugliest Creatures though likest unto men while they are not men And others say We know not what to make of Mr. B. he is neither Flo● nor Fish He is like one that will go one step on one side the Hedge and another on the other side to avoid Uniformity And the men are not altogether mistaken I profess that I once made it the most earnest action of my life to have prevented the building of a separating Wall or a dividing Thorny-hedge in the midst of this part of the Vineyard of Christ to separate one part of the faithful Ministers and people from the rest And that I earnestly desire to see that Wall or Hedge pull'd down that Christ's Flock among us may be one And I will do the best I can whilst I live to get it down that there may be no such separation And seeing this is a work above my power I will go sometime on both sides the Hedge though by so doing I be scratcht and a Thorn in the Flesh by a buffetting Messenger of Satan reprehend me But reverend Doctors hear my Reasons It is not to avoid Uniformity but Separation I am a Catholick and not a Sectary I am for Communion with the Universal Church If you will hedge in one corner and the Anabaptists another and the Separatists another and so other Sects that must have their peculiars and turn Christ's house into your several Chambers and his Common-field into your little Inclosures and then say Keep onely in our Room and go into no other Keep onely in our Enclosure and go not on the other side of the Hedge I shall tell you that I abhor your separation I have business on both sides I believe the holy Catholick Church and the Communion of Saints and not onely your

you know the Hearts and Lives of many hundred thousands better than they do themselves I know many are deceived with self-flattery but are you that are a stranger to their hearts and them the fittest Judges Do you better know what Faith Hope and Love what Repentance and Obedience the Gospel hath produced To instance among strangers is the way of darkness or evasion I may speak boldliest where I know best Ask the People of Kederminster whether in that time they received any good by the Gospel Know you not that when some such did but preach to them at the rates you now talk it so alienated their minds from Prelacy and Conformity who before were not so averse thereto as that they have put it past my power to reconcile them so far to them as I am reconciled my self and were not my interest very great in them and their Preacher very honest I should not get them to come to Church Such good the Spirit of Envy and Faction doth in the World while it pretendeth to heal the hurt that others do 2. Let the effects that are visible be judge if places that abounded with Rioting Drunkenness Ignorance and Ungodliness do now search the Scriptures and meditate with delight in the Law of God and constantly worship him and their Families call upon his Name if they live soberly righteously and godly forsaking the former lusts of their ignorance and seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and live in charity and peace will it prove that these People are never the better because Faction causeth a stranger to tell them so But you say They were not the Souls of every Soil such as did inhabit poor Villages but such as dwell in fattest Parsonages or else in great Towns where these men who were most for the good of Souls might act their parts c. Answer Farwel the credit of all History if there be no truer Historians But how shall Posterity know who they are Is there an English-man that can be ignorant that the endeavour then was that no Church might be unsupplied There is no talking a far off was not Mr. Cowper at Moseley Chappel near you Mr. Rock at Rowley Mr. Tristram at Clents Mr. Walderne at Broom Mr. Baldwin at Chadsley Mr. Sergeant at Stone Mr. Baldwin at Wolverley my Assistant at Mitton Chappel Mr. Lovel at Alveley c. Doth not all the Country about you know that this which you say is false And are you then to be believed in difficult moral Cases of Duty or Sin who deny publick fact which all the Country about you knoweth Go into any one of these Churches and tell them that these men were never their Preachers and try whether you can convert them to believe you 2. But that the great Towns which commonly had least Maintenance should be first provided for That Tribe of Men should not deny who hold that none but Cities of old had Churches and Bishops nor should have Bishops to this day Nor should they teach Enemies to say These Bishops settled themselves only in the great Cities to act their parts with most popularity Is that the reason of your remove to Hampton 3. But what were the parts they had to act Their work it self is the best evidence of that Let the two Printed Agreements of the Worcestershire Ministers one for Discipline and one for Catechising and personal instruction with my Reformed Pastor be a standing Witness to Posterity what the Countries Ministers work was against all factious Calumny We lived not idle not one of a multitude had an hundred pounds a year Maintenance that I could know of In my great place of Sequestration mine was less when I was elsewhere oft offered above Three hundred pounds we preached twice or thrice a week and rarely meddled with any Controversies except against the Quakers and Anabaptists when they came to trouble the Churches We spent half two clays a week in Conference with each Family to Catechize them and help them to understand the Catechism and to prepare them for another World Besides all our Labour of Discipline to bring the Scandalous to Repentance and all the other Offices of our places In the last Leaf of my Uiversal Concord the practice of the Church where I lived is recited This was the Part we acted for our selves 2. But you add What good was done to Souls by these Intruders late Posterity will find c. Answer 1. I think that the present Age that hath the Experience may better know than Posterity unless they have truer Historians than you 2. Many thousand Souls already in Heaven and many thousand more yet on Earth that were brought to the true knowledge of God and themselves by the Labours of such Ministers will be their Witness what good they did But the Stranger meddleth not with their Joys 3. If you impute to them either the Errors or Work of Sectaries whom they were the principal means of suppressing and whom they did much more against than you Or yet the Works of the Rebellious Souldiers that pulled down Powers and set up themselves you will but shew your malignity and unrighteousness If you do not your Accusation signifieth nothing If you mean that the People will not be brought to like silencing of Prelats better than such Preachers and this is the breach which the skilfullest of you cannot heal I am of your mind And the Names of Intrusion and Schism will not serve to change their Minds As for Intrusion I knew very few such in those days that ever came to a place before they were sought to and intreated And I know very few now that are not Seekers 3. Your next against Preaching down Authority and Plundering other mens Livings to save Souls sheweth more what you are than what they did When you know that I have provoked you to name one of ten or twenty that ever preached down Authority or meddled with Arms Most coming out of the Universities after the Wars and many never meddling with them though several Conformists did And sure the Party is not to be judged or denominated by a tenth or twentieth part I named many men to you in the former Paper and in this Enquire how few of all those ever meddled with Arms. 2. And those few that did almost all did it before they came into Sequestrations and many never did so after and thought it had been Authority which they had stood for And as he that erreth in Medicine upon the judgment of a Colledge of Physicians so he that erreth in Law upon the judgment of a Parliament is more pardonable than some other men and may again be capable of Preaching the Gospel or else such should not now be readmitted 3. And if eating the Bread of Preachers be it you call plundring other mens livings their Error if it were one had these excuses that they thought that the Tythes had been first devoted to God and that he was the first

it a Calumny that I say the Liturgy is defective and Disorderly Answ I did in 1660. draw up a Catalogue of the mere defects and disorders but never offered it to avoid offending them He tells us 1. of the disorders of the Directory And had he proved it is that a justification of the Liturgy 2. And also he tells us of the defects and confusions which were in Mr Baxter's eight days exploit our Additionals or Reformed Liturgy 1661. when as neither this Accuser nor any of the Bishops or Dissenters then said one word of particular accusation against it nor any other that ever I knew of to this day save an impertinent quarrel of Mr. Roger le Strange that we used not more imposing words and such trifles § 35. XVI Next comes the Profession of the Antiquity of Three Orders in the Preface of the Book of Ordination and elsewhere p. 47. And he citeth me Christ Direct p. 127. as against my self falsly intimating that I assert three Orders because I am uncertain whether there be not divers Degrees in one Order I cited out of Spelnian the Canons of Aelfrike shewing that the Church of England even in times of Popery took Bishops and Presbyters to be the same Order as many Papists-Schoolmen do And the man should have known that it is not the Bishops of a particular Church that I mentioned in my Direct but only such as have the care of many Bishops Churches § 36. XVII He next defends the Scenical Call to the people to come forth and shew reason why the person may not be Ordained As if he knew not that it is not the sence of the words that is questioned but that this insignificant Ceremony should be set in the place of the ancient demand of their free consent over whom the Minister is set to seem as if they had still that liberty when it is no such matter nor do the people whose Souls he is to have the charge of know any thing usually of his Ordination nor at his Institution which sets him over them have they any Call Nor are so much as these Shews used at the Ordination of Bishops which by the old Canons was void without the Peoples Consent § 37. XVIII Of the words Receive the Holy Ghost c. he saith less than Mr. Cheny whom I have answered § 38. XIX So have I there answered p. 11 12. what he saith for the Oaths of Obedience to Archbishops Bishops Chancellors c. 1. It 's one thing to Obey them and another to Assent to the Oath of Obedience 2. And it 's one thing to swear Obedience to them as exerci●ing the power of Magistrates under the King and another thing as Laymen exercising the power of the Church-Keys c. And I have elsewhere cited divers old Canons that condemn such Oaths as dangerous § 39. XX. In the 20th Chap. to Mr. Cheny I have abundantly answered what he saith here about keeping men from the Sacrament and informing the Ordinary These be the Number of our Exceptions which the Impleader could finde though the rest were as plainly written § 40. XXI As for our Objections against the Declarations and Oaths required by Act of Parliament because it is not the sence of the Liturgie but of an Act of Parliament that we doubt of he refers us to the Executioners of the Law for our Instruction their natural way of satisfaction the Justice and Jailor I suppose Did these satisfie him to Conform herein Doth he take such Arguments for unanswerable Why did he pretend to defend the rest which are imposed in the same Act These are greater matters than the Ceremonies and need as clear a Justification § 41. But that you may see the measure of his Knowledge he can tell you that our mistake is wilful and an act of pure malice and revenge Answ Our Rule oft mentioned is agreed on by Casuists viz. To take such Oaths Promises and Professions in the sense of the imposing makers of them if they are our Rulers and unless they give us another sense we must take the ordinary sense that those words are used in to be theirs Therefore we take on any pretence whatsoever and those Commissioned by him and any alteration of Government in the Church and not at any time endeavour and no obligation on any other person as well as Assenting and Consenting to all things conteined and prescribed to have that meaning which not only our Parents that taught us to speak and our Masters and Dictionaries and the use of such as we hear talk hath taught us to take such words in but also in the sense of the Lawyers and Law-books which we are acquainted with unless any odde persons differ from the rest And this sagacious man hath found that this Exposition is a wilful mistake in malice and revenge Just as others of them can prove before God that it is through Covetousness that we Conform not viz. Two thousand Ministers England knoweth of what sort though the Accusers do not have forsaken all Church-maintenance and their Rulers countenance and put themselves under a Law that mulcts them 40 l. a Sermon banisheth them from Cities and Corporations lays them in Jayl c. reproacheth them as seditious and all this in Covetousness Malice and Revenge I have seen a Child throw away his meat in revenge but he returned to it in less time than 18 years I have heard of a woman that cut her throat and another that drowned herself and Children in a revengeful passion against her drunken cruel Husband but sure if she had 18 years deliberated it would have calm'd her passion But that 2000 such Ministers should chuse ruining Fines and Poverty and Jails and wilfully damn their own Souls by sin and all to be revenged on Parliament or Prelates is somewhat strange Especially when it is that which that Parliament and Prelates themselves are pleased with who chose the terms What kinde of Revenge hath our Malice found out which destroyeth ourselves and pleaseth our Afflicters § 42. And here p. 55. he falls with scorn on my Book of Concord and that his Book may be Conformable to itself describeth my terms of Concord by downright fiction and falshood as if he had thought none would ever open the book to shame his Calumny He tells you that the result of all is That every Pastor be independent free from any superiour to controul him and have an arbitrary Power and arbitrarily exercise the power of the Keys without Appeal to have the power of Ordaining who they will the power of altering the Laws in Church and State c. All which I have expresly written against at large Besides what I have written 1. For Bishops in each Church 2. For Archbishops or general Overseers 3. For Synods 4. Had it been no more than what I have written for the Magistrates Governing of all Pastors and Churches it would prove the falshood of this mans Assertion Yet that you