have a Catholick Antagonist they are sure to lose their Process and when both Parties are Hugonots that which gives hopes of changing Religion is certain to gain his Cause Prov. I was in Languedock when the divided Chamber of Castelnaudary was surpressed and that the Hugonot Counsellors were ordered to go to Tholouse to be parted in the Chambers These poor people were in a consternation that cannot be described They said the King sent them to Slaughter They related to me several Tragical Events which had hapâ—â—…d either by the fury of the people 〈◊〉 injustice of the Parliament of 〈◊〉 against them Amongst 〈◊〉 things they told me that two 〈◊〉 Counsellors going one day 〈◊〉 their Chamber were hanged up 〈…〉 Court without any form 〈◊〉 Par. The truth is that City is much changed since the time of the Albigenses it is passed into another extremity For it must be confessed that the zeal for the Catholick Religion is there accompanied with too much violence To return to the Subject of our Conversation What has been done to become Masters of the Hugonots Children is extreamly well concerted First it has been ordered that Maids at the age of Twelve Years and Boys at Fourteen shall have the liberty of making choice of their Religion You know that it is at that age that the Yoke appears heavy to Children because it is the age in which they must make choice of a Profession they are obliged to work and it is required of them to begin to leave off the liberties of Child-hood They have not yet any love for Religion and oftentimes they have but very little knowledge of it The Yoke of obedience and that of punishments being hard to them they seek only the means to shake them off To help them in the Execution of this Design there is established in the Cities where the Hugonots are most numerous Houses of the Mission and Propagation of the Faith into which the Rebellious Children retreat under pretext of turning Catholicks When they are in these Houses their Parents are not permitted to see them and they are lightly instructed some days after they make abjuration of Heresie and they are made to sign the act After this they have some liberty given them because they are hindred by the Declaration against Relapses from returning into their former Religion They are often times returned to their Fathers and Mothers who are obliged to answer for them And if the Children escape and go away out of a Libertine humour their Fathers and Mothers are accused of having sent them out of the Kingdom and upon this pretext a Process is formed against them and they are ruined Prov. I have likewise heard something of Schools now you are talking of Children Par. There is an Order issued out by which it is forbidden them to have more than one Master of a School in every place where they have exercise It is to oblige them to send their Children to Catholick Schools because there are places where it is absolutely impossible that six School Masters can teach all the Children And those who shall go to Catholick Schools endeavours are used to instruct them privately and make them turn Prov. For my part I avow to you that I find that Article which regards Children very severe I can hardly comprehend how liberty can be given to a Maid to make choice of a Religion at an age we would not give her leave to chuse a Petticoat But besides I hear them very often complain that they proceed farther than the Kings Declaration permits They say that their Children are took from them before the age appointed by the Edicts and when they demand the reason of it they are laughed at The Intendants who are Judges of these and other Infractions put them off for whole Years till that the Children may have attained the age of 12 or 14 years and then they cause them to make their Declarations When the Mother is a Catholick the Widdow of a pretended Reformed according to the last Declarations the Children ought to be instructed in the Religion of the Father But the Mother makes sure of them causes them to be instructed in her Religion and no satisfaction can be had for it They likewise say that their Children are often taken up in the Streets are shut up in Cloisters and they never hear more of them Par. All these complaints are not without ground But what injury does this do them Their Children are saved and endeavours are used to save them themselves Prov. I am told that a Decree has been lately made which concerns the holding of their Synods Par. It is that henceforwards Catholick Commissioners shall be given them on the Kings part It is a step towards the depriving them of all liberty of holding their Synods By which means will be known their strength and weakness it will be known what Ministers are capable of being gained Divisions will be sown amongst them some will be won by promises others daunted by Fear In fine their very Intrails will be known and it will be a great means for the destroying them Besides the Decrees that are made for the ruining them others are obtained for the rendring of them infamous They are forbidden to set up Flower de Luces either within or without their Temples as if they were unworthy of bearing those marks of honour and as if they were not good French-men All their principal Seats are ordered to be taken down in their Temples and all the Ballisters and Rails raised The Bishops have obtained a Decree by which it is ordered that during their visit in the places where there is exercise of that Religion it shall be interrupted out of respect to the Catholick Religion as if those people were Turks and Mahometans This seems but a small thing but however it helps forward and strikes deep into the minds of the people augments the aversion they have against the Hugonots and disposes them to quit a Religion for which they see there is so much Aversion and Contempt Prov. The Decree that has been lately made to forbid their Midwives and all others of their Religion to lay Women is a thing that terribly vexes them It is not to be described the terrour this has cast in most places into the minds of most part of their Women with Child For there are a great many Cities where there is not one Catholick Midwife who has any skill in that Art and there are some where there are none at all I have it from good hands that in places where this Order has been openly published the terrour of it has cast several Women in Labour before their Times and occasioned their Death Par. This Arrest is an essential point wherefore all the former difficulties must be passed over to put it in execution When their Women are recovered from their first frights it will be as convenient for them to be laid by Catholicks as by Women of their own Religion
Par. I should be glad to know some of the particulars of your Conversations Prov. I waited with great impatience to impart them to you for he has very much fortified the difficulty that I intend to propose to you To speak seriously I must assure you he sometimes moved and touched me For example he told me yesterday Must so many efforts be used to force from us that French heart that God and Birth has given us What have we done to merit so many misfortunes and such severe punishments We are hunted we are drove up and down as if we were the Plagues of the Republick We are treated as the enemies of the Christian Name In places where the Jews are tolerated they have all manner of liberty they exercise Arts and Merchandize they are Physicians they are consulted the health and life of Christians is put into their hands And as for us as if we were infected we are forbidden to approach Children that come into the World we are banished from the Bars and Faculties we are removed from the King's Person we are banished from Societies our Charges are taken from us we are forbidden the use of all means that might secure us from being famished we are abandoned to the hatred of the People we are deprived of that precious liberty that we had purchased by so many Services our Children are taken from us who are a part of our selves we are made to lead a languishing life in lowness in poverty and often in dark Prisons Formerly when Declarations were made against us they were at most contented with Registring them in the Rolls They are at present fixed up they are cryed about the Streets as if they were Gazettes to inspire the People with a spirit of fury against us And they have been so successful that in the great Cities of France we expect to have our Throats cut one time or another by a popular Sedition so that we are very near the Inquisition Can it be said that there is Liberty of Conscience in a Kingdom where the People are banished lose their Honour and their Goods are confiscated for Religion's sake There needs nothing more than Fire and that terrible Tribunal of the Inquisition which France has been hitherto so much afraid of will be established there Are we Turks are we Infidels We believe in Jesus Christ we believe him the eternal Son of God we invoke him solely and we have no Idols We have a soveraign respect for the Sacred Scriptures we believe there is a Heaven and a Hell the Maxims of our Morality are of so great a purity that they dare not contradict them We have a respect for Kings we are good Subjects good Citizens faithful in Commerce Let us be tryed according to Law and it will appear if we have been engaged in any Conspiracy against the State and if we have any ways failed in our duty Thanks be to God nothing can stagger our fidelity and the stock of love we have for our Prince is not to be drain'd if it depended on our Enemies we should be Enemies of the State we make a part of they design to push us on to Crimes that the King may have a just occasion of ruining us but they have hitherto missed their aim and are like to do so still the King may see it whilst that they so successfully turn the effects of his goodness from us there is not one of us but who is ready to lose his life for his sake we are Frenchmen as well as we are Reformed Christians we would shed to the very last drop of the blood of our veins to serve our King and for the preserving our Religion even to Death Par. If your Hugonot Gentleman has studied Rhetorick he has not wholly lost his time Prov. I know not if he has studied much but I easily perceive that passion is the source of his Eloquence for he told me what I have newly related to you with a zeal and passion that would have moved you Par. But could not you have stopped that Orators Mouth with one word in telling him that if the condition of the Catholicks in Holland and England was described and in all the Places where the Hugonots are Masters one might make a representation of their miseries much more touching than that they make of the ill Treatment the Religionaries receive in France Prov. I did not fail to lay that before his Eyes but he had a hundred things to tell me thereupon Par. You would oblige me by relating some of them Prov. I will tell you them First in regard of Holland He told me that I supposed a thing very far from truth that the Catholicks are there in oppression I know said he to me that you have been in that Country and you cannot deny but that they go there with as much liberty to Mass as at Paris Would to God added he that our Reformed had the same Conveniences there is not a City where the Catholicks are in a considerable number but that they have ten or twenty Houses wherein Mass is openly said and with an intire liberty They are seen to go in there they are seen to come out from them and no body dares say to them a word against it All that they are troubled at is that they are not Masters of the Churches and that they are obliged to do their Service in particular Houses There is in Holland a Country of small extent ten times more Ecclesiasticks than there are Ministers in all France which is very large There is a compleat Clergy and Hierarchy Amsterdam and all the other great Cities have their Bishops These Bishops have their Chapter and their Priests There are even Religious Houses It is true that all these people are something disguised but are they the less known Would it be difficult to unkennel them They are as well known as the Ecclesiasticks are in France and are not in the least insulted It is likewise true that at the sollicitation of some of the most zealous of the people the States formerly issued out Placates from time to time which forbad the exercise of the Catholick Religion but this is no longer so and it never caused one Stone to be took up against them It cost them about twenty or thirty Pistols for the Sheriff who put those Placates into his Pocket and no more talk was heard of them He added to this That it is unheard of that in that Country the Catholicks have been fatigued for the being Converted they are not at all disturbed in their Commerce They are Merchants Physicians Artizans Advocates and except the Charges of the Government of the State they are received without distinction into all Professions without so much as enquiring of what Religion they are No Body has Actions brought against them upon the account of Relapses or for having changed Religion In a word Liberty of Conscience is entire there as well as in all other places where
years that the Latins are in Schism with the Greeks and all the pains that the Popes and Eastern Emperours have given themselves at several times have not been able to extinguish this Schisme If Prudence Cares and Vigilance have not been able to bring to pass the ruine of Sects that were not founded upon Truth and who had violated Charity by their Separation they ought not to hope to ruin the Party of the Reformed which is supported by Truth has purged the Church of so many errours and has in no manner violated Charity in separating it self from a Church that chose rather to chase away from its bosome than suffer any Reformation The conclusion of all that great affair will make appear that those who have Sworn the ruin of the Hugonots fall upon God himself which will not be for their advantage Par. This new Preacher carries it very high but what did you answer to all this Prov. As he had more advantage over me than I had over my Gentleman I was obliged to suffer the match being unequal But I resolved to let the discourse continue and to retain the principal things he should oppose me with to be informed of by you Is any thing of these Facts false that this man laid thus as I have recited them Par. No But though the Facts that he told you be true it is not certain that the Conclusions he draws from thence are very good which we will examine at one time But for the present I will not interrupt you Prov. Since you desire it I will continue to tell you what I can remember of a Conversation which appeared to me in some places something above my Capacity I hear continued our Civil Lawyer that this Gentleman has obliged himself to prove to you that the course they take at present in France against our poor Protestants is quite contrary to the Interests of the King and State Give me leave Sir to represent you several things upon that point First is it not true that it is against the Kings Interests to depopulate the Kingdom There are still in France near two Millions of Souls of the Reformed Religion If all these persons were away their absence would certainly make a considerable Breach There is no body but knows that the force of States depends on the multitude of Inhabitants It is this that makes the United Provinces so powerful It is incredible that so little a State can resist so powerful Enemies and carry it's name to the end of the World which only proceeds from the prodigious multitude of Inhabitants which are there It is this that makes Arts flourish there Necessity being the Mother of Industry It is the cause of the Commerce because the Territory being too little to nourish so many Men they have been obliged to go seek to the very ends of the World the necessaries that their own Country could not furnish them with And in seeking wherewith to keep them alive and that they might not be famished address has made them find out immense Riches The King knows very well that the force of a Prince consists in the multitude of Subjects Wherefore he has made several Declarations in favour of those to whom God grants great Families and who thereby the more contribute to populate the Kingdom He has ordered that those Victuallars who have have two Children should enjoy exemption from all Taxes Imposts Subsidies Collects and quartering of Souldiers It is his will that the Nobles who have the same number of living Children have two thousand Livers of yearly pension out of the publick Revenues and for the exciting young people to marry themselves betimes he orders by another Declaration that the young married shall not be subject till the age of five and twenty years to any publick Charges It is to this intent that such diverse Declarations have been made by his Majesty which forbid all his Subjects to leave the Kingdom and go inhabit else-where By all these Courses the King would get and keep Subjects But his Majesty by the Declarations which have been made against the Reformed has lost twenty times more Subjects than he can have gained or kept by those other ways which his prudence or that of his Ministers had suggested to him It will be made appear to him if he pleases that within these fifteen years his Declarations against the Hugonots have drove away of them out of France above sixty or fourscore thousand All the Frontiere Provinces of England Holland and Germany as Normandy Campagne and Picardy are already sensible of this particularly the City of Amiens Since the Temple has been taken from the Hugonots of that City it is certain that the most part of their Merchants have retired themselves into forreign Countries and that they have carried with them at least twelve or fourteen hundred thousand Livers of Riches out of the Kingdom and which will never return into it In case they would but make the least attention upon this point it would appear that it is impossible but that the Kingdom will be deserted by this Course It is certain that all the Reformed who lose their Goods and Estates by what is called the disgraces of Fortune do quit the Kingdom because that their Religion hinders them from recovering themselves by any means In chacing away all those who bear the Arms of the Guards du Corps of the Musqueteers and the Gendarmes and all the Kings Household in taking the Commissions from several thousands of Commissaries who lived upon their Commssions in neglecting the Officers and refusing them advancement In a word in taking away as they do the means of subsisting from an infinite number of Hugonots who cannot subsist of themselves they are drove out of the Kingdom and all forreign Countries are seen covered with French-men who seek for employ and the means of subsisting that are refused them in their own Country I looked upon it as a certain thing that of 50 thousand that the Rigour which is exercised against us reduces into this estate there are not five hundred who turn Catholicks all the others are as many lost Subjects for the King They are much deceived if they believe that little is lost in losing people who have hardly any thing For it is certain that the Armies of a State are almost wholly composed of such sort of people It is the industry of such persons who keep up Commerce and Arts. There is a City upon the Frontiers of Champagne which formerly belonged to the Dukes of Bouillon touching which I am informed they make great brags to the King that when he took possession of it that City was almost wholly Protestants and that at present the number of the Catholicks much surpasses that of the others But they tell not the King what was told me that the severity with which they treated the Reformed has obliged them to retire that the Catholicks which they fill the City with are Beggers and
that we do the like to think of our Answers It is enough for this day that we have heard them The End of the Dialogues SInce that these Dialogues were finished there fell into the Authors hands a Letter from the Sieur Pelisson a famous Convert and a more famous Convertour It was believed to be worthy of the Publick curiosity and that nothing was more proper to make appear how Apostolical the manner is that is made use of for the Converting of Souls Nothing more resembles the Conduct of the Apostles who went from place to place spreading the Riches of Grace to the contempt of those of Nature than the Charity of these Gentlemen who spread every where the Riches of Nature to invite men to Grace Versailles the 12. of June 1677. Sir To answer the Letter you did me the honour to write me on May the 21th besides what M. de le Tour Dalier sends you I send you a Copy of a Memorial that I have sent to some of my Lords the Bishops of Languedock upon such Informations as they required of me You will therein see Sir that I have propos'd you as an example to all the others being but what you merit and in the second place without limiting any sum you may with the same Oeconomy and in the Conditions of this Memorial proceed as far as you please as well at Pragelas as in all the rest of your Diocess in point of little Gratifications to the New Converts M. Dalier has took upon him to send you a Letter of Credit for the taking up those little sums which may become great ones according as you shall have occasion and for my part I heartily wish Sir to discharge several of your Bills of Exchange not only for three or for six thousand Livers but for ten and for fifteen and for as much as you please I shall not be so happy as to have reason to complain of their being too much If you ask me Sir how this agrees with the smallness of our Stocks and the design of endeavouring the same through all the Kingdom I shall place at the beginning of my Story that which made the Widows Oyland Flower increase and which multip lied the five Loaves Besides all Conversions are not made in a day that while the time runs the stock advances that these good successes have made the King determine to dispose of St. Germains and Cluny only to these sort of good works that Credit will be found to make ordinary advances at need upon these Abbeys that if we saw so great success and so much of stock engaged in the future we might stop or demand other helps from the King which his Piety would hardly refuse the furnishing without reckoning those of which some overtures have been made to him that he has not rejected As for M. de Gilliers I do not see in your Letter Sir if he is to be Converted or is already a Convert in the first case I can charge my self with proposing to the King what you shall judge most convenient in making it known to me more precisely In the second case that is to say if he or his Family have been Converted for some time you must get some other to speak to the King than I who have solemnly renounced and as by Contract not to propose to him on my part any other expence than that of making Conversions I admire Sir the work that God has wrought by your hands and by M. Dalier for your General Hospital I fancy it to be as much as the taking of Valenciennes Cambray and St. Omers I shall have the honour to write more particularly to you at the little Assembly that Whitson holy-days has dispersed insomuch that I have not yet seen the Chief President who returns but to morrow from Basâ—ville Be pleased Sir to continue to honour me with some part of your favour and if you will do me a great deal of good and a very great kindness with some part likewise in your most secret Prayers be it in the Cell or be it at the Altar I am with all possible respect Sir Your most humble and most obedient Servant Pelisson Fontanier A POSTSCRIPT THere has ben a great number of Conversions made in the Valleys of Pragelas by the Cares of M. de Grenoble and the Company of the Propagation of the Faith in the same City and by some Missionaries of the Company of Jesus Insomuch that without other distribution than about two thousand Crowns in all sent at several times there are are well certified Lists of seven or eight hundred persons returned to the Church Some of my Lords the Bishops having done me the honour to write me word that they likewise saw several Conversions that might be made in their Diocesses if moneys were sent them I made answer by order from the King that it was not possible to send Moneys into so many places but that every one should labour on his side and give notice of the Conversions that were to be made in the considerable Families that the King might think of it and provide accordingly Neither should any occasion be let slip for the converting the Families of the people when it costs but little as had been seen in those Vallies that for two three four or five Pistols very numerous Families had been gained I even told them they might mount to an hundred Francs without my needing to have any New Order from his Majesty to acquit the Bills of Exchange that should be drawn upon me This was very religiously performed in regard of those to whom I had written I said the same thing to M. Potel Secretary of the Commands of the Duke of Vernuil at his going to the States of Languedock that he might make it known to my Lords the Bishops who should be assembled there and I have since confirmed him by Letters and so much the more willingly being the King excited by the good success had lately made a new Fond which is the third of all the Oeconomats expedited or to be expedited since the Month of December last which he only designs for this use which will not begin to produce before the beginning of the next year but from which may be hoped a perpetual succour for the future Things are in the same state and though that this Fond is not yet come means will be found to pay the Bills that shall be drawn upon me for that effect But the following conditions must be observed 1. That they be not unknown persons or little known and without Character who draw those Bills of Exchange upon me 2. That every one be accompanied with an abjuration certified by the Bishop of the Diocess M. l'Intendant or any other person in a considerable Employ and with an Acquittance from a publick hand for the discharge of the Sieur Soutain Commissary for his Majesty for the receiving the Temporalties of the Abbeys of Cluny and St. Germain des Prez together with the thirds of the Oeconomats design for New Converts 3. That these abjurations be since the Month of November last 1676. 4. That though they might mount to an hundred Francs that is not to say that it is intended they always should do so it being necessary to be as wary therein as can be first for the spreading this dew upon the more people and then again because that if an hundred Francs be given to lesser persons without any Family that follows them those who are raised the least higher or train after them a number of Children will demand much greater sums My Lords the Prelates or others who shall charitably take upon them these kind of Cares cannot better make their Court to the King before whose eyes all these Lists of the Converts pass than in imitating what has been done in the Diocess of Grenoble where they hardly ever mounted to that sum of an hundred Francs and were almost always much below it Which does not however hinder that for more considerable performances I having first notice greater sums shall be furnished according as his Majesty to whom it shall be made known shall iudge convenient FINIS ERRATA PAge 11. l. 8. for evoqued r. removed p. 19. l. 15. for had given r. had not given p. 22. l. 2. for regard to r. regard had to p. 25. l. 26. for Fiefarons Fee-farms p. 31. l. 22. for scale r. seal p. 33. l. 12. for to our r. our l. 15. for our r. to our p. 34. l. 25. for modest r. modest by force l. 26. for indignation r. inclination p. 43. l. 22. for Baptism of Faith r. Baptism of Laicks p. 69. l. 14. for Lives r. Books p. 78. l. 14. for Bedunt r. Pedant p. 107. l. 1. for Schupe r. Schuyt p. 146. l. 14 for nutas r. nutat p. 150. l. 7. for Profession r. Profusion
Provinces taken so many Cities made so many Sieges and won so many Battels nothing can be more worthy of him and more capable of rendering the memory of his Reign Glorious than the re-uniting the Religions in France He has hearkned to it and will forget nothing for the accomplishment of this Design The King does not naturally love to vex his people and if he was left to act according to his inclinations things would not be carried on so violently but he is pushed on and is not left at quiet Prov. It is not however believed that violent means shall be employed that is to say Sword Fire and Banishment Par. If some Bigots were listened to nothing should be spared But the general vein of the Kingdom does not go so The King does not love violence Besides how weak soever a Party may be when it is pusht to extremity it is capable of giving a desperate blow It was not observed that this Conduct succeeded in the last age And in fine the King whose principle aim is to make himself formidable to his Neighbours does not design to depopulate his Countries And doubtless they would be considerably depopulated if the Hugonots were destroyed by the Sword or chased away by Banishment Prov. It is well known that the Kings Prospects are very opposite to those for he has made several Ordonnances to hinder his Subjects from leaving the Kingdom It is likely that the Hugonots have a very great share in them they are not allowed to go seek reâ—ose elsewhere They must stay and be exposed to the ills that are designed them and that they may at length change being wearied with so many Fatigues or invited by such hopes Par. It is so it is not to be dissembled See here then the manner by which it is pretended to compass the great Design of re-uniting them to the Church It has been observed by experience that there are two things that give root to Heresie in a State The first is the great Liberty that the Hereticks have of preaching their Doctrines The Second is the Conveniency of Life when they are suffered to live in a profound Peace and enjoy Charges Employes and all the other Dignities and Priviledges which the other Subjects enjoy Prov. It is certain when a man is born of a Religion and that he finds therein all the Repose Riches Pleasure and Honour that he could wish he has no great mind to change it how little zealous soever he may be Par. That 's true and therefore during fifty Years there was not so many Conversions seen as within these five Years The Edicts given in favour of the Hugonots by Henry the 4th and confirmed by his Successour Lewis the 13th granted them great Liberties In the Cities where they were most numerous they possessed one part of the Magistratures they had Chambers of the Edict in the Parliaments and likewise divided Chambers in the Provinces where they were most numerous They avoqued all their Causes to these Chambers that the zealous Catholick might not do them injustice They exercised all manner of honourable and gainful Professions with the same liberty as the Catholicks They were Counsellors and Attorneys at Law Physicians gathered in a Body of the Faculty They were received into Arts they carried on Trade they likewise entred into the Kings affairs as well as others In War no distinction was made between them and the Catholicks Nothing was considered but Merrit and Fidelity and Service and Courage They were received into all the Military Dignities and had Pensions They were Collonels Brigadeers Major-Generals Lieutenant-Generals and even Marshals of France commanding Armies in Chief On the other part as for what concerned the exercise of their Religion they very freely enjoyed what had been granted them They had places appointed from the time of the Edict for their Sermons Every Gentleman having High Justices was as a little Soveraign in his House He might assemble by the sound of the Bell all the Religionaries thereabouts he made a Parish in his House and no body disturbed him The Bishops were used to suffer those people in their Diocesses They had even engagements with the Principals of this Party The Hugonot Lord made no scruple of visiting my Lord the Prelate and the Prelate on the other part lookt with a good Eye upon the Hugonot Gentleman Thus they lived in a very great Peace But it was visibly perceived that the Heresie took deep root by the favour of that repose as ill Herbs are increased by the gentleness of the Spring Prov. The State the Kingdom had been in for a long time had without doubt contributed to the tranquility the Hugonots enjoyed A War of thirty Years with Spain a long Minority Civil Broiles and Forreign Affairs had hindered the thoughts of them Par. That is certain For after all our Kings who bear with justice the name of most Christian and Eldest Sons of the Church have never lost the design of destroying Hereticks But their Prudence has obliged them to suspend the use of the means they designed to make use of for that end Prov. As for Henry the 4th I do not think this can be said of him He had treated with them with sincerity He was of opinion he had received great services from them he had been a long time of their Religion He only quitted it that he might quite dissipate the League which covered it self with the Cloak of Catholicity And we very well know that this remnant of Inclination that he had preserved for them cost him his Life After his Death during the minority of Lewis the 13th and the Ministry of the Marquess d' Ancre the Affairs of Court and State were in such disorder that there were few thoughts of extirpating the Hugonots It is true that Cardinal Richlieu took from them their Cities of Surety but it was rather out of a Politick prudence than any zeal of Religion He saw that it was a State in a State and that those Cities were retreats for Rebels and the Discontented but in the bottom he sought not their ruin His engagements were too small with the Court of Rome and was too able a Politician to ruin a Party of whose Fidelity he might always be assured It may likewise be said with more assurance that Cardinal Mazarin never thought of extirpating Heresie The Good man though an Italian and a Neighbour of the Church had no great zeal for it Riches were his only Divinity It is very well expressed in one of his Epitaphs Si Coelum rapitur habet He never sought any other way to go to Heaven thâ—n that of Rapine Especially he never thought of this way to Heaven which is called the Conversion of Hereticks Besides his Ministry was attended with so many Traverses and he was so hard put to it to defend himself against so many Enemies that it cannot be imagined he had ever any other Prospects than such as tended to the establishment
is true that there is one of the R. P. R. joyned in Commission with him without whom nothing ought to be judged But it is only for form sake this Catholick Commissioner does all He alone instructs the Processes and oftentimes judges them alone If Hugonos complains of a Contravention to the Edicts he is not heard If a Catholick will complain of a pretended Contravention he obtains all that he demands against them In the Judgments of their Temples the Hugonot Commissioner is either corrupted or frightned they deceive him and promise him to confirm one Temple if he will consent to the demolishing of another And in fine if nothing can be obtained of him the Catholick Commissioner condemns the Decision is made and this Decision is sent to the Counsel where they ordinarily pronounce upon the judgment of the Catholick Commissioner without further examination Only for the keeping some appearance of justice sometimes of thirty Decisions they will let the Hugonots gain one that they may say to them you see that Justice is done when it is found that you have reason on your side Prov. I likewise oftentimes hear the Country Gentlemen complain of the troubles they are put to for the Sermons they caused to be preached in their Houses Par. Neither have they been spared upon that Article Henry the 4th believing he had received great Services from the Nobility of this Party granted to all the Lords of High Justice the power of causing Sermons to be preach'd in the places of their abode to receive there all people and even to assemble them by the ringing a Bell This occasioned them a great number of Sermons Not that at Court great stress is laid upon these establishments because they perish with the Gentleman's Family who maintains them or cease when he turns Catholick Now Gentlemen ruin themselves by the expence they are at and oftentimes to recover themselves by some Employ which gives them the means of Subsisting they change Religion and are converted Thus the Family decaying or becoming Catholick the Hugonots are chased away However it has been indeavoured by several Decrees to ruin these sorts of establishments It has first been declared that High Justices newly erected were not granted to have this Priviledge when they fell into the Hands of Hugonot Lords They have enlarged this even to the time of the Edict declaring they will not allow that publick exercise to be made in all the Lands erected in High Justice since the Edict But interpret the Article of the Edict of the Lands which were at that time in Right of High Justice They even proceeded much farther for it is pretended that the Lords have no Right of causing Sermons to be preached in their Houses at least if they do not shew that the Lands which they possess in High Justice were at the time of the Edict in the hands of Lords of the R. P. R. and in possession of causing Sermons to be held there It is true 〈◊〉 is last Article has not been yet 〈◊〉 every where with the 〈◊〉 rigour but it is an Affair that iâ— easily returned to In the mean time these Hugonot Lords are forbidden to have any sign of publick exercise in that part of the House where preaching is performed They have caused the Bell and Seats to be taken away And this is done for fear that in time it might take the form of a place of possession They are likewise forbidden to have preaching out of their House and the Precincts of their Court. And for the more safety a decree was made by which it was forbidden to the Ministers Preaching in the High Justices and in the Houses of Piefarons to come to their Synods and to enter themselves in the Tables of these Synods It is true that they have obtained respite to the execution of this arrest as also to the execution of another Order which commanded their Ministers to reside in the Places where they preached which had obliged the Ministers who preach at Charinton to stay there and quit Paris Prov. These respites that the King has granted make appear that this Prince is good natur'd and that he would give them much more repose if he was not continually solicited by the Clergy Par. I do not at all doubt it But happily we have near his Majesty such persons as never leave him at rest upon that point It is the whole business of the Counsel of Conscience The Clergy has Informers who only employ their thoughts for the inventing new Edicts as the Financiers have who think of nothing but the means of augmenting the Kings Revenues Prov. Will you make an end of informing me what is done to destroy their Temples Par. I should be too long if I would say all For within these twenty years so many orders have been issued to that end that a great Volume is composed of them and there is not one but what tends to their ruin I assure you that nothing is neglected and that our people are watching on all sides to destroy them Prov. I hear them often complain of the deceitfulness of their Antagonists Par. The â—â—â—th is they cry up the Maxim against them Dolus an virtus quis in 〈◊〉 requirat I see that by those who sollicit me and who put affairs into my hands against them False pieces are produced which oftentimes pass for good I 'll give you an Example which will make you laugh The Clergy of Niort a City of Poitou solicited the destruction of a Temple that the Hugonots have there Their Deputâ— presented an Order of Parliament daâ—â—d the Year 1601 or 1602. which ordered that the Temple of that City should be raised because it had been only suffered in the City by Toleration for the safety of the Hugonots who could not do their Exercise in the Field because of the Leaguers This Order having been communicated to the Advocate of the Party he discovered that there was upon the Banks of the Loire between Orleans and Blois a great inclosed Burrough or little City called Mer in which were many Hugonots This Order had been made against them The Clergy of Niort had met with this piece by chance They had in the word Mer parted the last stroak of the m and made it an i they had made the e an o insomuch that after these changes it was read Nior But the misfortune was that in this Order there was mention made of the Leaguers of Orleans who made incursions and came to pillage There was likewise mention made of a certain Lord of Mer and several other things of that Nature which had no more reference to Niort than to Rome Thust he piece was convicted of forgery Prov. This is a strange Cheat the Curate who had falsified this piece and had produced it was not he punished Par. And what punishment should have been inflicted on him All the ill he came to by it was that he lost his Process Prov. Since we
Converters are plaid upon and they are even willing to be cheated that they may afterwards cheat his Majesty because they know that he is liberal even to â—rofusion to those who turn Catholiks â—here are Rogues who never having 〈◊〉 Protestants not so much as by 〈◊〉 on go and put themselves upâ—â—â—… the Catalogue of Converts that they may be rewarded for their pretended Conversion And in fine where are these Conversions made It is at Paris and in some other great Cities of France where there are Missions and Houses of propagation established where the people are perpetually sollicited by Promises and by Threatnings But in all the Provinces and particularly in the Country there are hardly any Conversions seen perhaps within twenty years one might count ten or twelve thousand persons who from Hugonots have turned Catholicks what is this to near two Millions of Souls of that Religion there are in France and when will they then have done I know not continued he how they can hope to draw in so great a number of people there is nothing more difficult to be forced out of the mind than sentiments of Religion and nothing more difficult to be rooted out of a Country than a Sect that has had time to fortifie it self there and which is setled in its Opinions Fire and Sword cannot extirpate it Do we not see it proved in the Spanish Low-Countries From the time that the exercise and profession of the Protestant Religion was forbidden there ought it not to be extinguished yet there are still found a great number of those People whom they call Guises And for my part I cannot forbear believing That the Doctrine and Opinions of the Albigenses have been preserved in Languedock as a Fire hid under Cinders from the time of those Albigenses even to Calvin's time And it is to this that I attribute that our Reformation has made greater Progresses in that Province than in the others All those who would make serious reflections upon what I have now said will grant that they will never compass the reducing the Protestants of France into the Roman Church And thus all the pains that are taken and all the ills they suffer will only make them miserable and raise Malecontents Par. This is certainly all that your Orator could imagine for the maintaining his two first Propositions I am very impatient to know what he could say for the maintaining the third that the design of re-uniting the Religions in France is against the Interests of the King and State for it is a strange Paradox common sense dictates that there is not a greater good in the World both for Temporals and Spirituals preferable to that of seeing in a State an unanimous consent in matters of Religion Prov. When my Gentleman was at the part I left you at I perceived his forces failed him You have put me saith he upon a Chapter that requires something more knowledge than I have A Souldier is not obliged to know more than the History of his Age but give me leave to bring you to morrow a man who will tell you more therein than I can Par. You was not sorry at this occasion of breaking off a Conversation that gave you time to breath Prov. You are in the right I willingly granted him what he desired we parted and the day after at the hour we had appointed I saw him enter accompanied with an old Civil Lawyer of his Party who in the sequel seemed to me a pretty able man After the first Complements he began with telling me You are generous Sir in permitting a man who found himself too weak to go seek for succours This Gentleman has informed me of the subject of the Conversations you had with him He told me where you stopped and if you think fit we will renew it in the same place Par. Methought he had done with proving that they would never succeed in the design of reducing all the Hugonots of France into the bosom of the Church Prov. I thought so as well as you But this Gown-man did not judge that the Souldier had said enough upon that point wherefore he continued the matter thus You must grant Sir that in the rise and fall of Heresies and Schisms there is something Divine and which passes our understanding They are deceived who imagine that the wounds of the Church are to be cured by Humane means God for the punishing the coldness and negligence of the People and Pastors suffers the Devil to sow Weeds in the field of the Church and when his anger is appeased he causes those Schisms to cease and extinguishes those Heresies that his Justice had permitted and he does it by means which he alone is Master of It is true that thousands of Heresies which were in the first Ages are no longer in being Arrianisme that made so much noise in the World is quite gone But to whom do we owe this It is neither to violence nor punishments Good Emperours never made use of them and the effusion of blood is contrary to the good Spirit of the Church The Arrians indeed were persecutors but were never persecuted It is not by such-like means as those by which they pretend at present to Convert the Hugonots of France to wit by depriving them of their Temples and removing them from Charges and doing them injustices and violating the promises that were made them and reducing them to die of Hunger Humane will does the more strive against these sort of Oppositions Neither was it by the way of Councils For after the Decrees of the Council of Nice of that of Sardica and of several others that have been held against the Arrians their Sect has multiplyed and has reigned with more insolence than before that Sect is insensibly extinguished of it self and no one knows how after having exercised its furies in Asia Greece and Africa during more than two hundred years But this Heresie being thus extinguished to conclude from thence that with the cares that might be taken all other Heresies might be stifled and affirm that a Schism cannot last long that after having subsisted some time it must necessarily cease is to be but little acquainted with the History of the Church The Schism and Heresie of Nestorius have not they still lasted to this day in the East from the year 430 that is to say for above twelve hundred years The Schism of the Eutychians is of no later a date than that of the Nestorians than about twenty or five and twenty years for Eutyches and Dioscorus were condemned in the year 451. in the Council of Chalcedon and from that time the followers of those two Men have filled all the East and the South under the names of Eutychians Severians Auphalans Armenians Jacobites Cophtes and even of Abyssyns For all these People who still at this day make the greatest part of the Asian and African Churches adhere to the Schism of Eutyches It is above seven hundred
Dispute to day against a pompous Maximed that has all appearances for it that covers it self with the habit of Devotion and against which the Bigots say one cannot declare without impiety But provided we be heard and that we are permitted to distinguish and explain our selves we shall appear nothing less than impious If it be said that nothing is more desirable by a good Prince than to see all his Subjects live in the true Religion we grant it if it be added that for the reuniting minds and bringing them all to think the same thing in matters that may be controverted he ought to employ all the means that Christian Morality suggests and approves we will likewise avow it But all this can neither make us affraid nor do us any hurt Moral Christianity does not suffer that ill be done that good may come on it It will never Counsel the Re-union of Religion by violence and breaking of Words If it be added that this Maxim is as true in Policy as it is in Morality and that it is the interest of a State for its Conservation to have but one Religion in such a manner that it cannot be great flourishing and peaceable while that Diversity of Religions are suffered and tolerated we shall say that nothing can be advanced more false First of all those Gentlemen who maintain that Maxime with so much confidence do not think of what they do they do not perceive that they make an Apology for all persecuting Princes If it be so the Pagan Emperours had reason to arm against the Christians and to set whole Rivers of their blood a flowing The Christians separated themselves from their Society they looked upon others as Enemies of God and as the Devils Subjects and good Policy according to the Maxime that is taught our Kings cannot permit that such people should be suffered to live If these Gentlemen might be believed the Grand Seignior is but very ill Counselled to tollerate in his Territories the Christian Religion he could not be blamed if he let loose his Janizaries upon the Christians and caused all their throats to be cut Par. That 's a pretty fancy to compare a Christian Prince who is of the true Religion to a Pagan Prince or Infidel It is a Crime to persecute the true Religion but it is a work of great merit to extirpate Heresie Prov. Stay and you shall know what he told me thereupon There is not a man said he but who 's persuaded that he 's of the true Religion The Grand Seignior believes himself in the way of Salvation as the most Christian King persuades himself he is Thus according to the principles of Morality his Conscience orders him do all that is possible for him to save his people by forcing them to become of a Religion which he believes to be the only way to Salvation But you must especially take notice that we examine this Maxime according to the Rules of Policy Now according to these Rules the Grand Seignior is as well obliged to endeavour the Peace and Preservation of his Territories as the Christian Princes are to endeavour the Preservation of theirs To refute this Maxime I will only mention that so common saying Divide Impera Nourish Division and you will easily remain Master When there are several Parties in a State provided that the Prince espouses none of them that Division obliges each of the Parties to hold fast to the Princes interests for the having his Favour and Protection If one of the Parties gets much ground of the other and that the Prince likewise happens into this strongest Party provided that he hinders the weakest from being oppressed by the strongest it is clear that he cannot fail to be beloved and considered by all his Subjects He would be beloved by the strongest party because he himself was of it the fear of losing him would make them manage him The weakest party would have love and acknowledgement for a Prince whom it was indebted to for its Tranquillity by the Protection it received Add to all this that such people as are of contrary Religions cannot enter into the same Rebellion Thus the Prince is always sure to have a faithful Party It is ever difficult that in a State divided thus great Conspiracies can be contrived for the one party continually watches the paces of the other Plutarchs Treatise of Isis and Osiris The Ancients have observed to us that in Egypt there was almost as many Religions as Cities because that they had different Animals for Gods At Memphis they adored the Oxe Apis at Leontopolis the Lyon at another place a Wolfe in another City a Sheep at another a Goat And they were of so contrary Religions that some eat the Annimals that their Neighbours adored with design to vex them and turn their Religion into Ridicule Diodorus his 1. Book of his Bibliothiques The Kings of Egypt nourished this Division and found that it was the security of the State because that it hindred Conspiracies I leave it to Politicians to push the Speculations farther that may be made upon it and content my self with the experience by which I make appear that it is very false that a State cannot be both peaceable and happy when it tolerates several Religions It would be requisite to make the History of the World to say all that can be said upon it We should speak of those great Empires which included so many several Nations and full as many Religions It is certain that one Paganisme was more different from the other than the Sects of Christians are different from one another yet the Romans did not fail to render their Empire glorious and flourishing and it was never the Diversity of Religions that troubled it's Peace It has been observed that they carried away the Gods and Spoils of the Nations whom they rendered Tributary and that they adopted those strange Gods and built them Temples in Rome So that they nourished this Diversity of Religions even in the very bosome and Capital of the Empire without the Peace being any way altered If from the Conduct of the Pagans we pals to that of the Christian Emperours we shall see therein the same thing That is they have tolerated the Diversity of Sects amongst the Christians without prejudicing the good of the State The Novatians had their Churches their Bishops and their Priests even in Constantinople that was the Capital of the Empire They were not only tolerated there but were likewise esteemed Constantine did the honour to their Bishop Acesius to call him to the Council of Nice and to ask his Opinion upon the Decree that had been made touching what day Easter ought to be celebrated upon And when he the Great Theodosius took the Resolution to try to reconcile all the Sects by amicable conferences he Communicated his Design to Nectarius Bishop of the Catholicks in Constantinople Nectarius who had not been brought up in Ecclesiastical Affairs consulted able