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A92774 The diatribē proved to be paradiatribē. Or, A vindication of the judgement of the reformed churches, and Protestant divines, from misrepresentations concerning ordination, and laying on of hands. Together with a brief answer to the pretences of Edmond Chillenden, for the lawfulnesse of preaching without ordination. / By Lazarus Seaman. Seaman, Lazarus, d. 1675.; Simpson, Sidrach, 1600?-1655. 1647 (1647) Wing S2174; Thomason E413_9; ESTC R203508 93,768 122

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〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o you_o say_v the_o custom_n be_v among_o the_o grecian_n in_o their_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d or_o lawful_a meeting_n that_o the_o people_n join_v vote_n with_o the_o ruler_n and_o the_o ruler_n with_o the_o people_n before_o any_o act_n be_v account_v legal_a yea_o it_o may_v be_v rather_o refer_v to_o the_o people_n than_o to_o they_o for_o the_o people_n sometime_o vote_v alone_o but_o the_o ruler_n do_v never_o answ_n for_o this_o i_o think_v you_o cite_v budaeus_fw-la and_o henry_n stephen_n but_o at_o large_a go_v and_o consult_v they_o once_o again_o you_o wrong_v those_o learned_a man_n while_o you_o will_v have_v we_o to_o believe_v that_o they_o be_v as_o ignorant_a of_o the_o greek_a story_n as_o yourself_o or_o that_o this_o be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o they_o which_o be_v not_o for_o what_o you_o here_o assert_v be_v it_o true_a of_o some_o particular_a commonwealth_n in_o greece_n at_o som●_n time_n yet_o it_o be_v far_o from_o truth_n concern_v all_o the_o grecian_n general_o the_o ruler_n in_o athens_n often_o meet_v apart_o and_o vote_v apart_o nothing_o be_v or_o may_v be_v bring_v into_o their_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o what_o the_o ruler_n have_v first_o consult_v and_o conclude_v 116._o conclude_v sam._n petitus_fw-la in_o comment_n ad_fw-la leges_fw-la attica_n l●b_n 2._o de_fw-la legibus_fw-la titulo_fw-la 1._o p._n 116._o a_o law_n make_v by_o the_o senate_n alone_o stand_v good_a for_o a_o year_n before_o the_o people_n be_v consult_v with_o about_o it_o and_o this_o be_v one_o of_o solon_n law_n sine_fw-la senatus_n praejudicio_fw-la populus_fw-la nullâ_fw-la de_fw-la re_fw-la rogator_fw-la let_v the_o people_n be_v consult_v with_o in_o nothing_o which_o the_o senate_n have_v not_o predetermine_v *_o there_o be_v a_o sort_n of_o ruler_n among_o they_o who_o vote_v thing_n among_o themselves_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d before_o the_o senate_n and_o the_o common_a hall_n 123._o hall_n idem_fw-la p._n 123._o see_v more_o to_o the_o clear_n of_o this_o in_o henri_n steph._n tom._n 4._o p._n 429._o g._n but_o imagine_v all_o be_v as_o you_o say_v of_o the_o custom_n among_o the_o grecian_n in_o their_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d lawful_a civil_a meeting_n what_o be_v that_o to_o bind_v christian_n in_o their_o church_n paul_n say_v we_o have_v no_o such_o custom_n nor_o the_o church_n of_o god_n it_o be_v not_o say_v nor_o the_o 16._o 1_o cor._n 11._o 16._o church_n of_o greece_n as_o mean_v civil_a assembly_n you_o must_v first_o prove_v that_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n be_v democraticall_a and_o that_o every_o single_a congregation_n among_o we_o be_v to_o have_v the_o same_o power_n which_o a_o common-hall_n have_v among_o they_o and_o that_o our_o manner_n of_o proceed_v be_v to_o be_v regulate_v by_o they_o before_o you_o argue_v from_o the_o one_o to_o the_o other_o but_o to_o go_v on_o and_o in_o this_o sense_n say_v you_o it_o be_v to_o be_v take_v by_o the_o reverend_n 166._o engl._n pop._n cer_n p._n 166._o divine_a of_o scotland_n his_o word_n be_v but_o it_o be_v object_v that_o luke_n say_v not_o of_o the_o whole_a church_n but_o of_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n that_o they_o make_v they_o by_o voice_n elder_n in_o every_o city_n ans_fw-fr but_o how_o can_v we_o imagine_v that_o betwixt_o they_o two_o alone_a the_o matter_n go_v to_o suffrage_n election_n by_o most_o voice_n or_o the_o lift_n up_o of_o the_o hand_n in_o token_n of_o a_o suffrage_n have_v place_n only_o among_o a_o multitude_n assemble_v together_o wherefore_o we_o say_v with_o junius_n that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v both_o a_o common_a and_o particular_a action_n whereby_o a_o man_n choose_v by_o his_o own_o suffrage_n in_o particular_a and_o likewise_o with_o other_o in_o common_a one_o so_o that_o in_o one_o and_o the_o same_o action_n we_o can_v divide_v those_o thing_n which_o be_v so_o join_v together_o ans_fw-fr the_o sense_n you_o mean_v as_o i_o suppose_v be_v this_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n as_o ruler_n together_o with_o the_o people_n who_o have_v interest_n of_o authority_n in_o this_o business_n by_o joint_a suffrage_n or_o election_n make_v elder_n not_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n alone_o this_o you_o call_v the_o sense_n of_o a_o reverend_a divine_a of_o scotland_n in_o other_o passage_n you_o cite_v the_o same_o book_n as_o speak_v the_o sense_n of_o that_o church_n 1._o though_o i_o reverence_v the_o church_n and_o the_o divine_a thereof_o yet_o i_o can_v but_o remember_v amicus_fw-la plato_n etc._n etc._n though_o junius_n be_v heretaken_v in_o yet_o all_o will_v not_o help_v to_o prove_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d do_v necessary_o refer_v in_o this_o place_n to_o any_o other_o than_o to_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n it_o suffice_v against_o the_o papist_n that_o the_o people_n be_v not_o exclude_v by_o the_o word_n but_o how_o it_o shall_v be_v prove_v that_o they_o be_v include_v by_o virtue_n of_o it_o i_o see_v not_o the_o note_n of_o grotius_n upon_o the_o place_n be_v worth_a observe_n sol●●_n quid●m_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d sumi_fw-la de_fw-la quavis_fw-la electione_n et_fw-la i●m_fw-la quae_fw-la ab_fw-la ●●●_o well_fw-mi pancis_fw-la fit_n 2._o and_o be_v it_o grant_v that_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n make_v elder_n with_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o people_n as_o it_o be_v by_o grotius_n himself_o and_o protestant_n general_o their_o consent_n be_v one_o thing_n and_o by_o their_o authority_n another_o that_o must_v be_v grant_v not_o from_o the_o meaning_n of_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o from_o analogy_n of_o the_o act_n of_o make_v minister_n with_o that_o of_o choose_v mathias_n act._n 1._o or_o deacon_n act._n 6._o or_o from_o some_o other_o ground_n 3._o neither_o need_v it_o seem_v strange_a that_o a_o thing_n shall_v go_v to_o suffrage_n between_o two_o if_o we_o consider_v what_o we_o read_v of_o barnabas_n and_o paul_n in_o the_o case_n of_o john_n mark_n act._n 15._o 37_o 38._o and_o what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d which_o refer_v to_o god_n alone_o act._n 10._o 42._o 4._o when_o junius_n say_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v both_o a_o common_a and_o particular_a action_n his_o meaning_n can_v be_v that_o there_o must_v be_v many_o of_o divers_a sort_n people_n as_o well_o as_o ruler_n or_o else_o there_o be_v no_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o grant_v as_o he_o do_v that_o it_o may_v signify_v a_o particular_a action_n it_o can_v be_v from_o the_o word_n prove_v that_o more_o join_v in_o the_o action_n then_o be_v say_v to_o join_v beside_o where_o two_o alone_a do_v join_v there_o be_v actus_fw-la communis_fw-la &_o particularis_fw-la simul_fw-la and_o as_o to_o the_o text_n in_o ●and_n only_a paul_n and_o barnabas_n be_v here_o express_v to_o be_v those_o who_o give_v suffrage_n and_o when_o two_o be_v say_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d it_o be_v not_o necessary_a to_o understand_v twenty_o or_o two_o hundred_o two_o consul_n may_v be_v say_v true_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d both_o by_o a_o common_a and_o a_o particular_a act_n when_o they_o join_v in_o any_o business_n belong_v to_o they_o as_o consul_n though_o the_o whole_a senatus_n populúsque_fw-la romanus_n do_v not_o vote_n with_o they_o those_o divine_n among_o we_o protestant_n as_o calvin_n and_o ames_n euseb_n ames_n calvin_n instit_fw-la l._n 4._o c._n 3._o §._o 15._o nempe_fw-la sic_fw-la romani_fw-la historici_fw-la non_fw-la rarò_fw-la loquntur_fw-la consulem_fw-la qui_fw-la comitia_fw-la habuerit_fw-la creasse_n novos_fw-la magistratus_fw-la non_fw-la aliam_fw-la ob_fw-la causam_fw-la nisi_fw-la quia_fw-la suffragia_fw-la receperit_fw-la &_o populum_fw-la moderatus_fw-la sit_fw-la in_o eligendo_fw-la *_o amesius_n bellarm._n enerv_v 10._o 2._o l._n 3._o c._n 2._o §._o 31._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v dicitur_fw-la qui_fw-la prae●st_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d quo_fw-la sensu_fw-la tribuitur_fw-la presbytery_n primariis_fw-la vel_fw-la episcopis_fw-la aliquando_fw-la apud_fw-la euseb_n who_o answer_v the_o papist_n that_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n be_v say_v to_o ordain_v because_o they_o give_v direction_n and_o have_v precedence_n in_o this_o business_n do_v thereby_o acknowledge_v that_o the_o action_n be_v here_o express_o ascribe_v to_o they_o alone_o to_o that_o which_o follow_v but_o if_o the_o word_n they_o ordain_v be_n refer_v to_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n and_o signify_v to_o create_v or_o make_v a_o officer_n who_o be_v none_o before_o yet_o the_o power_n whereby_o this_o creation_n be_v wrought_v be_v not_o their_o own_o only_a for_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v creare_fw-la per_fw-la suffragia_fw-la as_o h._n stephen_n render_v it_o which_o be_v as_o much_o as_o to_o say_v they_o do_v it_o not_o only_o virtual_o in_o the_o power_n
lord_n give_v leave_v harm_n eng._n pag._n 253._o &_o 254._o the_o augustane_n confession_n art_n 14._o concern_v ecclesiastical_a order_n they_o teach_v that_o no_o man_n 16._o de_fw-fr ordine_fw-la ecclesiastico_fw-la docent_fw-la quod_fw-la nemo_fw-la debeat_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la publicae_fw-la docere_fw-la au●_n sacramenta_fw-la administrare_fw-la nisi_fw-la rite_n vocatus_fw-la sicut_fw-la &_o paulus_n praecipit_fw-la tito_n ut_fw-la in_o civitatibus_fw-la presbyteros_fw-la constituat_fw-la corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 1._o p._n 16._o shall_v public_o in_o the_o church_n teach_v or_o minister_v the_o sacrament_n except_o he_o be_v right_o call_v according_a as_o st._n paul_n give_v commandment_n to_o titus_n to_o ordain_v elder_n in_o every_o city_n harm_n eng._n p._n 258._o the_o latter_a conf._n of_o helvetia_n chap._n 18._o furthermore_o no_o man_n ought_v to_o usurp_v the_o honour_n of_o the_o 59_o nemo_fw-la autem_fw-la honorem_fw-la ministerii_fw-la ecclesiastici_fw-la usurpare_fw-la sibi_fw-la i._n e._n ad_fw-la se_fw-la largitionibus_fw-la aut_fw-la ullis_fw-la artibus_fw-la aut_fw-la arbitrio_fw-la proprio_fw-la rapere_fw-la debet_fw-la d●mnamus_n hic_fw-la omnes_fw-la qui_fw-la fua_fw-la spo●●●_n currunt_fw-la cum_fw-la non_fw-la sint_fw-la electi_fw-la missi_fw-la nec_fw-la ordina●●_n corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 1._o pag._n 59_o ecclesiastical_a ministry_n that_o be_v to_o say_v greedy_o to_o pluck_v it_o to_o he_o by_o bribe_n or_o any_o evil_a shift_n or_o of_o his_o own_o accord_n we_o do_v here_o therefore_o condemn_v all_o those_o which_o run_v of_o their_o own_o accord_n be_v neither_o choose_v send_v nor_o ordain_v harm_n engl._n p._n 236._o the_o conf._n of_o wirtemberg_n art_n 20._o neither_o be_v it_o unknown_a that_o christ_n in_o his_o church_n have_v 164._o nec_fw-la est_fw-la obscurum_fw-la qd_n christus_fw-la instituerit_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la sva_fw-la ministros_fw-la qui_fw-la adn●ncient_a evangelium_fw-la suum_fw-la &_o dispensent_fw-la sacramenta_fw-la ejus_fw-la nec_fw-la permittendum_fw-la est_fw-la cuivis_fw-la quamvis_fw-la spirituali_fw-la sacerdoti_fw-la ut_fw-la sine_fw-la legitima_fw-la vocatione_n usurpet_fw-la publicum_fw-la ministerium_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 2._o pag._n 164._o institute_v minister_n who_o shall_v preach_v his_o gospel_n and_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n neither_o be_v it_o to_o be_v permit_v to_o every_o one_o although_o he_o be_v a_o spiritual_a priest_n to_o usurp_v a_o public_a ministry_n in_o the_o church_n without_o a_o lawful_a call_v harm_n engl._n p._n 265._o the_o english_a conf._n further_o we_o say_v that_o the_o minister_n ought_v lawful_o due_o 131._o credimus_fw-la ministrum_fw-la legitime_fw-la vocari_fw-la oportere_fw-la &_o rectè_fw-la atque_fw-la ordine_fw-la praefici_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la dei_fw-la neminem_fw-la autem_fw-la ad_fw-la sacrum_fw-la ministetium_n pro_fw-la svo_fw-la arbitrio_fw-la &_o libidine_fw-la posse_fw-la se_fw-la intrudere_fw-la corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 1._o pag._n 116._o see_v also_o the_o 23_o art_n among_o the_o 39_o and_o corp._n conf._n p._n 131._o and_o orderly_o to_o be_v prefer_v to_o that_o office_n of_o the_o church_n of_o god_n and_o that_o no_o man_n have_v power_n ro_o wrest_v himself_o into_o the_o holy_a ministry_n at_o his_o own_o pleasure_n harm_n eng._n p._n 255._o propos_fw-fr iii_o in_o call_v to_o the_o ministry_n beside_o election_n ordination_n be_v to_o be_v use_v where_o it_o may_v be_v have_v act._n 6._o 2._o ch_n 13._o 2._o ch_n 14._o 23._o titus_n 1._o 5._o 1_o tim._n 5._o 22._o and_o beside_o the_o usual_a way_n of_o ordain_v by_o prayer_n fast_v and_o imposition_n of_o hand_n there_o be_v no_o other_o speak_v of_o in_o any_o confession_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n the_o conf._n of_o helvetia_n quo_fw-la supra_fw-la and_o those_o which_o be_v choose_v let_v they_o be_v ordain_v of_o the_o elder_n with_o public_a prayer_n and_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n we_o do_v here_o therefore_o condemn_v all_o those_o which_o run_v of_o their_o own_o accord_n as_o before_o harm_n engl._n p._n 236._o see_v also_o the_o former_a conf._n of_o helu._n har._n eng._n p._n 242._o corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 1._o pag._n 90._o the_o saxon_a confession_n we_o do_v retain_v in_o our_o church_n also_o the_o public_a rite_n of_o 99_o retinemus_fw-la igitur_fw-la &_o in_fw-la nostris_fw-la ecclesiis_fw-la publicum_fw-la ritum_fw-la ordinationis_fw-la quo_fw-la comendatur_fw-la ministerium_fw-la evangelii_n verè_fw-la electl_n quorum_fw-la mores_fw-la &_o doctrinam_fw-la prius_fw-la exploramus_fw-la corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 2._o pag._n 99_o ordination_n whereby_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v commend_v to_o those_o that_o be_v true_o choose_v who_o manner_n and_o doctrine_n we_o do_v first_o thorough_o examine_v harm_n eng._n pag._n 225._o the_o belgic_a confess_v art_n 31._o we_o believe_v that_o the_o minister_n senior_n and_o deacon_n 179._o credimus_fw-la ministros_fw-la seniores_fw-la &_o diaconos_fw-la debere_fw-la ad_fw-la functiones_fw-la illas_fw-la svas_fw-la vocari_fw-la &_o promoveri_fw-la legitimâ_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la electione_n adhibitâ_fw-la ad_fw-la eam_fw-la seril_n dei_fw-la invocatione_n atque_fw-la co_fw-la ordine_fw-la ac_fw-la modo_fw-la qui_fw-la nobi●_fw-la dei_fw-la verbo_fw-la praescribitur_fw-la corp._n conf._n par_fw-fr 1._o pag._n 179._o aught_o to_o be_v call_v to_o their_o function_n and_o by_o the_o lawful_a election_n of_o the_o church_n to_o be_v advance_v into_o those_o room_n earnest_a prayer_n be_v make_v unto_o god_n and_o after_o the_o order_n and_o manner_n which_o be_v set_v down_o unto_o we_o in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n harm_n eng._n p._n 258._o note_v here_o that_o beside_o prayer_n they_o speak_v of_o a_o order_n and_o manner_n set_v down_o unto_o we_o in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o for_o minister_n and_o deacon_n relate_v to_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n or_o ordination_n if_o i_o understand_v they_o the_o confession_n of_o bohemia_n ch_n 9_o but_o minister_n ought_v not_o of_o their_o own_o accord_n to_o press_v senioribus_fw-la d●cent_fw-la ministros_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la quibus_fw-la administratio_fw-la verbi_fw-la &_o sacramentorum_fw-la demandatur_fw-la ritè_fw-la institutos_fw-la esse_fw-la oportere_fw-la ex_fw-la domini_fw-la &_o apostolorum_fw-la praescripto_fw-la atque_fw-la hi_o probentur_fw-la prius_fw-la tum_fw-la demum_fw-la factâ_fw-la precatione_n per_fw-la man●um_fw-la impositionem_fw-la confirmentur_fw-la à_fw-la senioribus_fw-la forward_o in_o that_o call_v but_o aught_o according_a to_o the_o example_n or_o command_v rather_o for_o so_o '_o be_v in_o the_o latin_a ex_fw-la praescripto_fw-la of_o the_o lord_n and_o the_o apostle_n to_o be_v lawful_o appoint_v and_o ordain_v thereunto_o they_o teach_v also_o that_o above_o all_o thing_n they_o be_v prove_v and_o try_v by_o examination_n and_o so_o afterward_o prayer_n and_o fast_v be_v make_v they_o may_v be_v confirm_v or_o approve_a or_o rather_o as_o it_o shall_v be_v translate_v let_v they_o be_v confirm_v those_o word_n or_o approve_a have_v nothing_o to_o answer_v to_o they_o in_o the_o latin_a by_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n harm_n eng._n p._n 246._o let_v the_o reader_n observe_v that_o he_o who_o publish_v the_o harmony_n of_o confession_n in_o english_a be_v no_o friend_n to_o ordination_n and_o imposition_n of_o hand_n as_o appear_v not_o only_o by_o his_o note_n upon_o every_o passage_n where_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v mention_v but_o by_o his_o translation_n here_o but_o that_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o bohemian_o may_v be_v the_o better_o understand_v i_o shall_v here_o add_v the_o word_n of_o the_o waldenses_n out_o of_o their_o most_o ancient_a confession_n the_o first_o that_o ever_o be_v extant_a against_o popery_n ad_fw-la plenam_fw-la presbyteri_fw-la gradationem_fw-la tria_fw-la esse_fw-la necessaria_fw-la 14._o barnes_n l●d_n wald._n to_o 2._o p._n 14._o approbamus_fw-la primum_fw-la probatio_fw-la aquavitae_fw-la fidei_fw-la donorum_fw-la fidelitatis_fw-la quoque_fw-la in_o exilioribus_fw-la negotiis_fw-la creditis_fw-la alterum_fw-la orationes_fw-la cum_fw-la jejuni●_n postremum_fw-la contributio_fw-la potestatis_fw-la aptis_fw-la ad_fw-la hoc_fw-la verbis_fw-la &_o manuum_fw-la impositio_fw-la adcorroborationem_fw-la for_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n in_o their_o second_o book_n of_o discipline_n ch_n 2_o &_o 3._o the_o divine_n of_o that_o church_n speak_v clear_o full_o and_o most_o accurate_o to_o all_o the_o former_a proposition_n to_o the_o first_o in_o the_o 2._o chap._n to_o the_o second_o and_o three_o in_o the_o 3._o chap._n without_o lawful_a call_v it_o be_v never_o leasome_a i._n e._n lawful_a 81._o doct._n &_o disc_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotl._n p._n 81._o to_o any_o person_n to_o meddle_v with_o any_o function_n ecclesiastical_a there_o be_v two_o sort_n of_o call_v one_o extraordinary_a by_o god_n immediate_o as_o be_v of_o the_o prophet_n and_o apostle_n which_o in_o kirk_n establish_v and_o well_o already_o reform_v have_v no_o place_n the_o other_o call_v be_v ordinary_a which_o beside_o the_o call_v of_o god_n and_o inward_a testimony_n of_o a_o good_a conscience_n be_v the_o lawful_a approbation_n and_o outward_a judgement_n of_o man_n according_a to_o god_n word_n and_o order_n establish_v in_o the_o kirk_n this_o ordinary_a and_o outward_a call_v have_v