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A41335 Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ... Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652. 1692 (1692) Wing F969; ESTC R31512 41,078 37

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yet they might have but one Teaching Elder and so could not carry on all Church-work and there ought to be many Elders in one Church saith the Dr. be they six or seven Congregations it comes to the same I have heard that in Lantashire there is one great Parish Church and several Chappels belong unto it in which Ministers Preach and Administer the Lords Supper which do shadow out what I aim at As to the Examples which are brought Mede and Fuller Men of great Learning tell us that in the first Century Christians had a room Dedicated and Appropriated to the Worship of God what their Design is I leave yet they tell us it was but a room in some private Disciples House Nor in the second Century had they publick Places to meet in say our Homilies against Idolatry lib. 2. p. 66. The Lord tells Paul Acts 18.10 I have much People in Corinth How much so much as may meet in one place in a private Disciple's House when their Tables for their Love-Feasts c. are set This is much honour to the Text. Several of the Fathers understand the word Church in 1 Corinth 11.18 to be meant the place where the Church met Contin●ns pro Continento and I think it may be so well understood 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 these were the Church of the believing Corinthians that met together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church The Church here is opposed to their own Houses v. 22. then I know nothing against it but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the 14 chap. 34. may be so understood Let your Women keep silence in the Churches not in the Church as in the 18th V. but Churches so that they met in more places than one in Corinth yet but one Church 2 Cor. 2.1 Our last Annotator Translate the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the 20th V. for the same thing not the same place and I think his Reason is good and I have wondered that Learned Men should render the words so in Acts 2.44 Dr. Lightfoot saith the words cannot be so rendered and gives other significations of the words that they will not prove the Question As for the Church in Ephesus which is another Example brought Paul continued there three Years Acts 20.31 The reason of his stay a great and essectual door is opened 1 Cor. 16.8 9. The Word of God grew mightily Acts 19.20 It grew so that they dare venture to burn the Books that were of Value among the Ephesians before the face of the People valued at eight hundred Pounds the least Acts 19.19 Both Jews and Gentiles came in Acts 19.10 17. And how many Christians have we now in Ephesus so many as may meet in one room in a private Disciples House Paul's great door and his word mightily had better been spared for this is but a disgrace to the Text. As for what J●stin Martyr writes that the Christians in the Towns and Villages met on the Sunday 1. How many were there in the Villages 2. Had they any Pastor in the Villages 3. How far were these Villages from the Towns Justin Martyr saith nothing to these Heads Come lower to the Year 252. when the Quarrel was between Cornelius and Novatianus Cornelius in his Epistle to Fabius faith of Novatian●s He was Ignorant there ought to be but one Bishop in that Church of Rome in which were forty six Presbyters seven Deacons c. A little Digression One Bishop in Rome Was not Rome a Metropolis where the Seat of the Emperor was but then it should have been Arch-Bishop but Cornelius saith one Bishop in that Church of Rome And to this day we call the Pope the Bishop of Rome not Arch-Bishop of Rome Simple Bishop can content Cyprian Bishop of Carthage and Cornelius Bishop of Rome which two Cities caused bloody Battels which of them should be the Empress of the World How they then can be esteem'd Men of Truth we may easily judge that dare Preach and Print the seven Angels of the seven Churches in Asia were seven arch-Arch-Bishops when one hundred and sixty Years after those Churches there was no Arch-Bishop in those great Cities But to goe on concerning the Church of Jerusalem I Consent to what he saith and let it stand for our Rule to Act by of it Dr. Owen thus writes This Church of Jerusalem thus called and collected out of the Church of the Jews was the Rule and Pattern of the Disposing of all the Disciples of Christ into Church Societies in Obidience to his Command throughout the World Catechis p. 85. let this stand How many thousands of Disciples did belong to this Church of Jerusalem we cannot tell but this we find Acts 4.4 there were five thousand at that time and Acts 5.14 Multitudes of Men and Women now were added to those five thousand In the 6 Act. 7. we read the Number of the Disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly I suppose no Man will say these were such as we read of 2 Act. 5.9 Strangers if they were yet it hurts not me they were all of this Church and we know Members of Independent Churches in London lived forty Miles distant from them Here was Prayer Preaching Administration of both Sacraments Election and Ordination of Officers Terrible Discipline if I might so call it upon Ananias and Saphira But was all this in one place No sure when there were but the three thousand added they Brake Bread 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 2.46 Beza and Grotius speak fully to my purpose as to the distinct places and that by Breaking of Bread the Lords Supper is intended as in the 42 v. the Salmur Divines A Lapide Dr. Hammond Dr. Owen Mr. Baxter and others whom I mention not do all agree Nor do I think there is any Man will say they did all partake of the Lords Supper in one House at one time much less then afterwards Thus was their Preaching Act. 5.42 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is certain then they met in several distinct places both to Preach and Administer the Sacrament yet but one Church How long it was between the day of Pentecost and Stephen's Death I know not but so long thus was their Practice and had been longer if that Persecution had not befallen them If then the meeting in one place had been so essential to a Church as the Dr. makes it we should have seen it here Surely the Apostles with whom our Lord had been speaking concerning the things pertaining to his Kingdom 1 Act. 3. so lately would not do any thing contra-essential to a Church Yea here was matter ready prepared for several particular Churches meeting in several distinct places for Divine Worship had the Lord pleased to have declared that it was his Will that meeting in every such distinct place should make a particular Church and so have given a Pattern how all particular Churches should be Constituted Here wanted nothing I say but the Declaration of his Will We have heard in the time of our Persecution that several thousands of the Scots met in one Field to Administer and partake of the Lords Supper Tho' it was not a House it was a Place yet we do not read that ever the Apostles did so much as once call all the Church together into one place to Administer the Lords Supper that they might leave one Example at least that in every Church there must be but One Table or one Altar as some call it which they might easily have done had one place in their Judgment men guided by the Spirit been so essential to a Church as some make it now Many thousands of particular Churches make up One Body of Christ Why then so many particular Congregations where the Members of one Congregation are known to the others as there may be Elders sufficient to carry on all Church-work may not make one particular Church I know not It is certain that where only one Pastor with a Parochial Congregation make a Church all the Ends of Churches cannot be attained not only Reason but Experience also hath sufficiently proved it Where a Congregation is so far remote from others and so poor that it cannot maintain one Pastor well such a People must do as well as they can but where Congregations are nearer tho' they be poor as I know sew that are not yet they may Coalesce into one Church to attain all Church-Ends so far as our Performance of Duties to those Ends may conduce Suppose there were seven Teaching Elders in a particular Church there is but One of these that Pray Preach Administer the Sacraments Order the Singing at one time all the rest put forth no Official Act but are Attendants as the Private Brethren But if these seven were in seven Congregations every one is at work performing these Acts. As for other Official Acts as Exercise of Discipline Ordination Election of Officers c. they may all meet together and Act jointly and thus it was in our Mother Church in Jerusalem which is more to me than all that is said for One Place One Altar One Bishop I cannot call to mind any Church-End but may be attained as well this way as if they met in one place alwayes and better FINIS