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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09103	A discussion of the ansvvere of M. VVilliam Barlovv, D. of Diuinity, to the booke intituled: The iudgment of a Catholike Englishman liuing in banishment for his religion &c. Concerning the apology of the new Oath of allegiance. VVritten by the R. Father, F. Robert Persons of the Society of Iesus. VVhervnto since the said Fathers death, is annexed a generall preface, laying open the insufficiency, rayling, lying, and other misdemeanour of M. Barlow in his writing.	Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610.; Coffin, Edward, 1571-1626.	1612 (1612)	STC 19409; ESTC S114157	504,337	690

in his Chronology Cardinall Bellarmine in his controuersies two speciall Bookes also in English not long agoe especially published about that matter the Three 〈◊〉 of England and the Answer to Syr Edward Cookes Reports where it is shewed that from age to age after the Apostles the selfe same Church of theirs was continued throughout the world with acknowledgment of the preheminence and Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome in the same Church which course of proofe was held also with the Ancient Fathers S. Augustine Tertullian Irenaeus and others that brought downe the descent of the true Catholike Church by the succession of the Roman Bishops as Heads of the same M● Barlow demaundeth of me in what sense I take the word Catholike when I suppose the Roman Church to be the Catholicke Church For if I take it sayth he for Vniuersall then Rome being but a particuler Citty and the true iurisdiction therof confined within a limited Diocesse or Prouince the Roman Church cannot be the Catholicke or Vniuersall Church for that it is but a particular Prouince But if sayth he I take Catholike for the profession of the true fayth as S. Cyprian doth calling that Church of Africa the Catholike Church then cannot the Romish Church neyther in this sense be the Catholik Church for that which the Prophet Esay said of the Iewes Church Her gould is mixed with drosse and she whose fayth was plighted in Christ is become an Adultresse may be sayd also of the Roman Church of this day and so cannot be the Catholike Church c. Which are two such mighty arguments as well declare the poore mans misery in the defence of his cause For to the first I would aske M. Barlow whether one man may not haue two Iurisdictions or rather one Iurisdiction extended differently to two things one more particuler the other more generall As for example the Mayor of London hath his particuler gouerment first and immediatly ouer his owne howse family and peculiar lands and yet besides that he hath iurisdiction also ouer all the Citty And to make the case more cleare let vs suppose that he hath both the one the other from the king● shall it be a good argument to say that he is Gouernor of his owne particuler landes house and family which is knowne to be confined and limited to such a part of the Citty therfore he vsurpeth by stiling himself lord Gouernour of the whole Citty And the like demaund may be made of the Kings authority first and imediatly ouer his Crowne lands which is peculiar vnto him and limited with confines but yet it impeacheth not his generall authority ouer the whole Realme Euen so the Bishop of Rome hath two relations or references the one as a seuerall Bishop ouer that people and so had S. Peter who was Bishop of the same place euen as S. Iames had of Ierusalem S. Iohn of Ephesus and the like and besids this he hath an vniuersall Superintendency and iurisdiction giuen him ouer all as Head of the rest So as Catholikes doe not deny but that the Church of Rome as it maketh a particuler Prouince or Diocesse is a member only of the Catholicke Church not the whole though a principall chiefe member by the reason of the eminēcy of her Pastour that the sayd Pastour therof is but a member also of the Catholik Church but yet the chiefest mēber wherunto all the rest are subordinate that is to say the head guid therof So as this is poore argument as you see But the second is more pittifull if you consider it well for if we take Catholike sayth he for the profession of the true faith as S. Cyprian did when he called the Church of Africa the Catholike Church then cannot the Romish Church be the Catholike Church And why for that her gould is mixed with drosse as the Prophet Isay sayd of the Iewish Church in his tyme. But here are two propositions an antecedent and consequent and both of them false The antecedent is that as the Church of the Iewes in the Prophet Isay his dayes being in her corrupt state was not the true teaching Church in respect of the naughty life vsed therein so neyther the Church of Rome in our dayes being full of the same sinnes bad life can be the true Catholicke Church this antecedent I say is most ●uidently false and impertinent for that Isay the Prophet in the place cited doth not rep●●hend the Religion of the Iewes but their life and ●●●ners nor doth he so much as name their Church or Synagoge or taxe their false teaching For albeit the wicked King Manasses that afterward slew him did perforce set vp false Gods among the Iewes yet did not only he and other Prophets then liuing to wit Oseas Amos Micheas I●●● Ioel Nahum Habacuc with the whole Church and Synagog not admit the same but resisted also what they might which is a signe that their faith was pure and good Wherfore Isay in this place alleadged nameth not their Church or Religion as hath bene sayd but expresly nameth the Cittie of Hierusalem wicked liuers therin saying Q●●modo facta es meretrix Ciuitas fidelis plena iudicy I●st●ia habitauit in ea nunc autem homicidae Argentum tuum versum 〈◊〉 in scoriam vinum tuum mixtum aqua Hovv art thou made an harlot thou faithfull Citty that wert once full of iudgement and iustice dwelled therin but now murtherers Thy siluer is turned into drosse thy wine is mixed with water Doth here the Prophet speake of factes think yow or else of fai●h Of wicked life or of false doctrine and if it be euident that he speaketh of manners as he doth indeed then how false is the dealing of M. Barlow in bringing it i● for proofe of false teaching and to conuince that as the Church of the Iewes could not be the true Catholicke Church of that time in respect of the corrupt māners vsed in her so cannot the Church of Rome at this day for the selfe same cause be the true Church But I would demande of M. Barlow what other knowne Church had God in those dayes wherin a man might find true doctrine besides that of the Iewes which he sayeth was not the true Church Will he say perhaps of the Gentills But they liued all in Idolatry And if a Gētile would in those daies haue left his Idolatry in the time of Isay the Prophet and haue desired to haue bene mad● one of the people of God by true instruction whither could he haue gone for the same but only to the Iewish Church And whither would Isay haue sent him but to the Gouernours thereof Both false and impious then is this antecedent about the Iewes Church but much more the consequent that would draw in the Roman Christian Church by this example which hath no similitude or connection at all For neither can he proue that it hath such

any thing against vs or for the Apologer euen as they are here nakedly cyted without declaration of the circumstances for that in temporall affaires the King or Emperour is Supreme next vnder God And when the Emperour will vse secular forces against the Priests of his dominion they being no souldiars must fall to prayers and teares which are Priestly weapons But what Did S Ambrose by this acknowledge that the Emperour had higher Authority then he in Church-matters Or that if he had offered him an Oath repugnant to his Religion or Conscience in those matters he would haue obeyed or acknowledged his Superiority No truly For in three seuerall occasions that fell out he flatly denyed the same which this Apologer cra●tily dissembleth and saith not a word therof The first was when he was cited by Dalmatius the Tribune bringing with him a publicke Notarie to testifie the same in the name of the Emperour Valentinian the yonger to come conferre or dispute with the hereticall Bishop Auxen●ius in the presence of his Maiesty other of his Nobility Coūsell which poynt S. Ambrose refused vtterly to do telling the Emperour playnly by a letter written vnto him That in matters of faith and Religion Bishops must iudge of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops And dyuers other doctrines by this occasion he taught him to that effect as is to be seene in the same Epistle The second occasion fell out the very next yeare after in Millane when the said Emperour by suite of the Arians and fauour of Iustina the Empresse on their behalfe made a Decree that a certayne Church of that Citty should be deliuered to the said Arians which Decree S. Ambrose the Bishop refused to obey And when the Emperours Officers comming with armes vrged greatly to giue possession of the Church he fled to his former weapons of weeping and praying Ego Missam facere coepi c. I began to say Masse● and when the temporall Magistrate vrged still that the Emperour vsed but his owne right in appoynting that Church to be deliuered S. Ambrose answered Quae diuina sunt Imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta That such things as belonge to God are not subiect to the Imperiall power And thus answered S. Ambrose about the giuing vp of a materiall Church What would he haue said in greater matters The third accasion was when the Emperour sent his Tribunes and other Officers to require certayne Vessells belonging to the Church to be deliuered which S. Ambrose constantly denyed to do saying That in this he could not obey And further adding That if the Emperour did loue him selfe he should abstayne from offering such iniury vnto Christ. And in another place handl●ng the same more at large he saith That he gaue to Cesar that which was Cesars and to God that which belonged to God but that the Tem●ple of God could not be the right of Cesar which we speak saith he to the Emperours honour For what is more honourable vnto him then that he being an Emperour be called a Child of the Church for that a good Emperour is within the Church but not aboue the Church So S. Ambrose What would he haue done or said if he had bene pressed with an Oath against his Conscience or any least poynt of his Religion Thus far I answered in my letter he that shall read M Barlows reply now will se● that he hath nothing at all in substāce to say against it for to that excellent speach of S. Augustine cōcerning the Emperour Iulian he tri●●eth exceedingly first bidding vs to shew that poynt in the Oath which is different from true religion which is a cauill as you see for it is inough if it be contrary to the swearers Religion And wheras we offer vpon that speach as the subiects of Iulian did VVe will serue our Soueraigne we will go to war with him and we will fight for him the like he sayth it is but an hypocriticall florish of words To the speach and facts of S. Ambrose he is forced eyther to say nothing or to speake against himselfe For wheras I do make this demaund Did S. Ambrose by saying that he could not resist the Emperour and that his weapons were teares acknowledge by this that the Emperour had higher authority in Church-matters then he Or that if he had offered him an Oath repugnant to his Religion and conscience in those matters he would haue obeyed and acknowledged his authority To the first he sayth that it is only extra ole●s not to the cause in hand and that he will handle it in another place though euery man of discretion will see that the demaund is full to the purpose and ought to haue beene answered here To the secōd he hath but a ridiculous shift Suppose saith he that S. Ambrose would refuse such an Oath vrged vpon him would he withall forbid others to take it Surely no. But I say surely yea for if we graunt S. Ambrose to haue bene a good Prelate Pastour Father to his people we must also graunt that what Oath he thought pernicious for himselfe to take he would haue forbidden the same to haue bene taken by his people if they had demaunded his opinion as English Catholickes did the Popes or els he had not bene a faythfull Pastour But what doth M. Barlow answere to the three instances alleadged out of S. Ambrose in all which he contradicted the Emperour that was his temporall Lord and denied to obey in matters Ecclesiasticall the first when he refused to go with the Tribune and Notary sent for him by the sayd Emperour to dispute in the Consistory with Auxenti●● the Arian Bishop yielding for his reason That in matters of faith and Religion Bishops must iudge of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Which answere of S. Ambrose M. Barlow doth allow and cōmendeth it much albeit we haue said somewhat before about the same yet shall we presently add a word or two more thereof The second refusall of the said Father was as now you haue heard to deliuer vp a certaine Church in Millan● to the Arians at the commandement of the Emperour alleadging for his reason Quae diuina sunt Imperatoriae potestatium esse subiecta that such things as are diuine are not subiect to Imperiall power Which answere in like manner M. Barlow alloweth albeit I thinke I may assure my selfe that if his Matie of England should cōmaund one of his Parish Churches of Lincolne Diocesse to be deliuered vp to the Puritās or Brownists or other like Sectaries and that his Maiesty should be so earnest resolute therin as the Emperour was sending his officers souldiars to put them into possession M. Barlow would not be so resolute in his deniall as S. Ambrose was neither would he be so bold to alleage that reasō which S. Ambrose did that diuine things are not subiect to King Iames his power including in

Turkes malice as being a publike enemie of the Church and dispatched secret Letters to the Patriarke of Ierusalem and the Souldiers there to Rebell against t●e Emperour a● Blondus the Popes soothing flatterer is forc't to confesse and by priuate Letters which were intercepted by the Emperour wherof he complaines dealt with the Saracens to make no truce with the Emperour nor to deliuer the Crowne of Hierusalem vnto him though he should winne it by Conquest And when the Emperour sent Letters of ioyfull aduertisment to the Pope of his victory and truce taken with the Turke the Pope threw away his Letters in disdaine and caused it to be giuen out through the Empire that the Emperour was dead vpon which rumor there grew a de●ection of many Citties from the Emperour to the Pope and those valiant souldiers the Almaines which were returned from that Christian expedition against the Turke into Apulia were designed to be slaine by the Inhabitants vpon this rumor VVhat is this will he say to the Popes consent for his POISONING Surely they are violent inducements that he thirsted a●ter the Emperours death which way soeuer for he which would arme the Emperours owne Souldiers against him cause a treacherous Reuolt from him while he was fighting the Lords Battails betray him into the mouth of Christs sworne enemy inuade his possessions in his absence disperse ●al●e rumors of his death contrary to truth and his owne knowledg and by contempts and Anathema's do his best● or worst to breake his heart would make little accompt or conscience to dren●h him out of this life if opportunity secrecy wou●d concurre Thus you see I haue fully set down M. Barlows loathsome discour●e now let vs briefly examine the substance and truth therof And wheras he doth so odi●●sly accumulate the rigorous proceedings as he would haue them to seeme of diuers Popes against the ●mperour yet doth he as you see fraudul●ntly dissemble conceale the Emperours demerits and misbehauiour against the Church and whole State of Christianity ●●s●ifi●d by so many Authors as he may be ashamed to plead ignorance of it as it may appeare first by that which Binnius out of others setteth downe of the causes of his excommunication by Gregory the 9. in these words Fredericum secundum tamquam ●oedifragum Sarace●o●●m sautorem c. Gregory did ius●ly and worthily excommunicate Fredericke the second as a league-breaker a fauourer o● Saracens a deceauer of the King of Hierusalem yea and of all the Christians that made warre in Asia against Infidels a breaker of his vow often confirmed by oath to make warre against the Saracens and whē afterwards he was absolued from c●nsures by the same Gregory and restored to the communion of the Church he added to his offences before abiured other more gri●uous crimes to wit he besieged the Citties of the Church and raised vp againe that most odious faction of the Gu●lphs and Gibbelines after it had bene appeased for more then 200. yeares He gaue offices to the Saracens and granted them a Citty called Nu●eria Saracenorum H● spoyled Churches and Monasteries he Tyrannically oppressed the Sicilians he dissuaded and withdrew the King of Tunis his brother from his holy desire of Baptisme at Palermo he stopped all the waies for the assembly of the Councel which Pope Gregory had called at Rome and finally he kept certaine Cardinalls and other Prelats in prison for which Pope Gregory excommunicated him the second tyme. Thus he All which may be seene more at large in the definiti●e sentence of Excommunication and deposition exta●t in the Councell it selfe of Lyons and related by Matthew Paris where also are specified diuers other particul●rs of his periury vpon periury horrible abusing of the Clergie his Assassinating of the Duke of Bauaria the notorious suspition of his being an Hereticke for as Fazelius writeth he tearmed Moyses and our Sauiour Impostors Deum de Virgine nasci non potuisse horrende protulerit and horribly pronounced that God could not be borne of a Virgin and the like which albeit he partly excused and resolutly denyed yet were the proo●es so euident and euincent that Patrum omnium consensu saith Fazelius with diuers others here noted with common consent of all the Fathers he was excommunicated and deposed To which if we add what all other Authors excepting Vrspergensis his follower and fabulous Cuspinian write of ●im we shall find him a fit subiect for such an Encomiast worthy I meane to haue his prayses thus blazoned out by M. Barlow For none I thinke of any honesty would euer go about to cōmend so wicked a man But this whole matter will better appeare by the particul●r examination of that which M. Barlow here reporteth He is excommunicated and depriued sayth he of Crowne and Allegiance vpon sleight pretenses by them And are these sleight pretenses Syr VVilliam It seemes your consciēce is not very ●trait that can swallow downe so fast such great gudgeōs And the same to be no vniust charge against the Emperour great multitude of Authors may be produced which both for learning truth and credit wil farre ouer-weigh the flattering collusion of one Vrspergensis of whome Paulus A●milius seeing how he contradicted all manner o● authority in his French history writeth thus Abbas Vrspergensis cius temporis aequalis Historias suas claudit laudibus Frederici insectation●que Pontisicum c. Fama frequenter sensus propè omnium conspirans eum d●mnāt c. Abbot Vrspergensis who liued at that time endeth his histories with the praise of Fredericke and railing against the Pope c. The more common fame and the conspiring consent almost of all men do condemn him So he But it sufficed M. Barlow that this Abbot could flatter the Prince ●nd ra●l● against the Pope which are the most frequent flowers in all his writings Which two alone with the huge heape of his lyes being deducted out of this his large Answer that ●e●t which remaines may be ●hut vp in a le●se nut-shell then that was wherin ●lexander is said to ●aue kept Homers Iliades But M. Ba●low goeth on He is procured saith he to promise in person to goe to the Holy-●and against the Turke that in the meane tyme they may ri●l● his Territories in his absence and so they did indeed So he This is much wrested or to speake more plainly is a notorious vntruth and framed out of his fingers ends not only against the credit and vniforme report of Authors but euen contrary to Vrspergensis himself on whome only he wil seeme to rely for ●is whole narratiō For read Vrspergensis that will he shall not find him to assigne any such cause of the Emperours sending and if he haue it not I would faine know vpon what authority M. Barlow doth auerre it But we haue seene store of such legier-d●-main if any one trust such a Iugler further then he seeth with his owne eyes he shall not tayle to

modo ira sed rabie crudelitate immanis not only impotent in anger but fierce with rage and cruelty which Folieta tearmeth barbaram crudelitatem barbarous cruelty VVernerus in fasciculo temporum calleth it Tyrannidem Tyranny And he that shall but read what he did at his siege in Rome related as well by German Authors to wit Crantzius Nauclerus Huldericus Mutius c. as by Blondus Sabellicus M●ssia Iacobus Philippus and others shall well see that he was not only cruell but barbarous and Tyrannicall indeed for thus doth Crantzius relate the matter and with him do the rest agree but I haue chosen him out of the rest as being a German for the Germanes as M. Barlow out of Cuspinian noteth doe write more faithfullie of their owne affaires then other strangers who cannot so well conceaue them and this Author is more graue learned ancient then the other two Fredericus Pontificem Ecclesiam satigabat c. Fredericke did afflict both the Pope and Church those who were signed with the Crosse once resisted his comming for hastening to breake downe the gates and wales of the Citty of Rome those of the Crosse stood in combate with the mighty army of the Emperor at which he being afrighted was so moued with fury and rage as fighting in the Van-guard he cryed out that all such as wore the Crosse and could be taken should be brought vnto him aliue the Romans that were brought vnto him he caused partly to be thrust through with foure woundes after the fashion of a Crosse and partly he cut their heades into ●oure partes and caused their forheades to be cut with Crosses but Clergy m●n that did weare their Crownes shauen he commaunded to haue their Crownes ado●ned as he tearmed it with a cro●●e cut into the same with a knife of whome one for that he seemed to beare the wound too patiently they tyed him with a rope and drew him through a heape of straw or chaffe and when as he still preseuered to prayse glorify God they burned him So he Againe in the end of the same Chapter Mirae sunt raro aliâs auditae crudelitates c. Wonder●ull are the crueltyes seldome heard of before which at this tyme Fredericke shewed against the Legates of the Church throughout the Kingdome of Sicily who partly killed many Archbishops and Byshops partly kept them in prison partly banished them amongst these was the Bishop of Catana by whom Frederick from his infancy had bene brought vp So Crantzius And more also in the ensuing Chapters especially the 24. which for breuity ● omit Only I will add vnto Crantzius two other Germanes Nauclerus and Mutius who speaking of his siege of Parma say that he caused as many of his enemies as were taken to be shot out of great Crosbowes into the towne and vsing great cruelty as well to women as men caused many to be torne in peeces before the gates of the Cytty c. And could there be any more barbarous Cruelty or Tyranny then this Besides these two examples of his outragious cruelty one more omitting the rest we will adioyne in another kind out of a Germā History called Compilatio Chronologica wherin is recorded that this Frederick maintained certaine Man-quellers and desperate Cut-throats which were sent from a Pagan Prince in Syria King of the Assassines from whome the name of Assasinates seemes to be deriued whose proper profession was to hazard there liues to murther any man when they were set on worke and they were the more resolute and desperate in this behalfe for that they held their obedience herein to be a special act of Religion yea to be rewarded and crowned with immortality in the next life as may be seene in Nubrigensis The King or Prince of those people is alwaies called Vetus de Monte or Vetustus de Montanis that is The old Man of the Mountaine rather in respect of his wisdome and grauity then for his age sayth Nubrigensis being held for a Prophet by those bloudy murtherers Then Fredericke had diuers at his commād by whose help he killed the Duke of Bauaria and also as Monachus Paduanus addeth who liued at that very tyme the Duke of Hungary Which examples fully expresse the horrible cruelty of his nature how much he thirsted after bloud And so much of this Let vs now come to the second For the other vice of licentious life that in so high a degree as little beseemed his Imperiall Maiesty there are many proofes for with Cuspinian agreeth Messia in the life of Fredericke Ciaconius in the life of Innocentius Blondus out of the relation of one who then liued and wrote what he saw and knew Nauclerus Crantzius Huldericus Mutius Crusius Colenutius and out of him Iohn Fox who setteth downe the matter somwhat nicely with a Ministeriall diminitiue phrase or to vse M. Barlows words with an hypocoristi●all alleuiation as being loath to touch him too neere who was so eager an enemy to the Pope saying He was not without his fault and human fragility for the VVriters impute vnto him some fault of concupiscence wherwith he was stained and blotted and it appeareth that he was not all cleare therof So he And truly I smyled when I read this clause some fault of concupiscence in Fox For seeing that euen in the regenerate in the Protestants opinion concupiscence is a sinne and so still remaineth after Baptisme why is it here imputed as a speciall fault in this Emperor more then in other men seeing that all men are as guilty therof as he as hauing it al alike engendred within thē But he meaneth his wāton life which he would closely couer with the generall and gentle title of Concupiscence For he addeth that he had by sundry Concubines three base Children Entius King of Sardinia Man●redus Prince of Tarentum and Fredericke King of Antioch which is somwhat more as you see then bare Concupi●cence and yet much lesse then others do write of him in this kind For who so will read his siege of Parma when he lay at his new towne of Victoria shall find almost in euery Author the great multitudes of women which he there kept who a●ter the Turkish guise for to that Sect as all testify he was singularly deuoted were attended vpon by Eunuches or as Bonauentura Angelus in his history of Parma sayth by droues of Eunuches for which he is specially taxed as I sayd by all Authors to which their generall and vniforme consent I see not what for proofe can be added or answered for reply And to shew further the base mind of this lasciuious Emperour besides his owne personall misbehauiour in this filthines Crantzius relateth one example of his beastlines as may alone shew how far this his faulty Concupiscence did extend it self For to gratifie the Turkes saith Crantzius as well those who followed him in his warres as those that