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A01041 A defence of the lavvful calling of the ministers of reformed churches, against the cavillations of Romanists Whereto is subioined, an epistle to a recusant, for clearing and maintaining some points of the former treatise of defence, challenged by a Roman Elymas Bar-Iesus-it. With a short discovery of the adversarie his dottage in his impertinent and rediculously deceitfull demands. By Patrik Forbes, of Coirse. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 1614 (1614) STC 11146; ESTC S114324 93,515 180

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cōcludeth not Neither is shee for this rejected or not esteemed the true and beloved church of God for that hee hath somewhat against her but lovingly therupon exhorted to amēdement And albeit God in his word hath fully revealed what for her accomplishment in grace is requisit yet in this mortal course where we know but in part and prophecie but in part she neither alike at all times is capable neither of all things perfectly at any time And yet the Lord according to his promise leadeth her in all truth for that by degrees he bringeth her on to perfection and notwithstanding of her owne weaknes of all the gates of hell assailing her yet errour lies never so provaile but that she keepeth the name liveth the life of God And in the end victorious over all vntruth she is perfyted in all veritie The Lord is said to washe his church that she may be a holy and cleane spouse to him not having spot or wrinckle and hee performeth accordinglie but so as hee is still purging and cleansing her til fully at lēgth beautified she be receaved in the mariage chamber Neither is she herefore not to bee counted holy because she not only is exhorted to the study of sanctification but also maketh a daylie progres therein He hath promised to subdue Satan vnder our feet Neither question we therefore of his truth herein because we find the enemy not onely standing armed against vs but also often woūding vs for we know that he who hath promised will performe and the work which he hath begun he wil accomplish in his saints Would we accuse a phisicion who had assured vs of p●rfyt convalescing therefore to be skilles and false because albeit finding our selves in the way of health yet before attaining the full point wee had sustained many fittes apparant deadly traunces That which the Psalmist sayth of the outwarde afflictions of the Church may be truely affirmed of all whereby in any sort Sathan assaileth her They have often afflicted me from my youth but they haue not prevailed against me And that which the Apostle vpon his owne experience speaketh of our progres in the strength of the inner man is most true in all the graces of God bestowed on his Church that his strength is perfyted in ●●●●nes and that therefore in patience we have to esteeme his measure of grace in the tyme sufficient for vs. Being assured that albeit we are not yet perfyt yet neither in fighting wee beat the aire nor yet run in vaine but are in the way towards ful perfe●tiō forgetting what is behinde endeavouring to what is before following hard towards the mark for the pryse of the high calling certain so to end our race as therewith to obtaine the crown And if the condition of the Church can be no otherwayes rightlie esteemed but according to that measure which in any of hir membres or in al jointly during her course here in weakenes is fulfilled which in the best degree of any ordininary state is ever mixed with some infirmity mist of ignorance what madnes is this to dream of a perfyt and ful point while we ar yet but in the midst of our journey 12. Now again when in a right sense such as I have shewed it is granted that the Church can not erre what I pray you is our aduersaries avantage herein except that still impudently they take that which is in question For even herby we argue thē not to be the church because they have erred and that both foullie and fundamentally And thus again they fall in a second and their owne ordinarie aequivocation concluding from them selves the boile apostume and excrement of the Church in it and not of it to the true Church and promises proper to her whereof they vainly and falslie boast ridiculouslie pleading truth to be with them because they forsooth are the Church where their right defence were by evincing the truth to be with them which is the life of the Church so to vindicateiustlie to them selves that title 13. For strengthening of them selves in this vsurpation they fal to a third aequivocation The church say they is alwayes visible and in so farre as for some ages no other church can be shewed which was not of their communion it evinceth them to be that true Church which can not nor hath not etred And here they display all the force of their eloquence the Church being the sheepfold of the sheepe the house of God the piller and stable seat of truth would God invite vs to a church which cannot bee seene would he so delude his own childrē as to bid them heare a Church which doeth not speake That which I have already said of the arysing groneth and successe of Antichrist and of the condition of the true Church vnder him and within his compas answereth sufficiently to this aequivocation whereby deceitfully they reason from the visible Church to the truth and true Church alwayes in the visible Church but not alwayes visible in it except in a sort for that the visible church and commō ensigne ever telleth where they are When we affirme the church to be invisible it is not that wee deny her to bee and to haue alwayes bene visible in the common ensigne of publike Profession But to infer herevpon that truth and true professours alwaies in her onely of her are at al times visible obtaine and beare sway it is a secret fallacy Sathan first in open and advoued rage oppugned the common ensigne till dispairing of succes therein he turned course and shape in his vicar of the bottomles pit pretending the Lambe his hornes he tooke vpon him to beare it and deceaved mightily thereby And yet neither thus did the Lord ever leave his owne sheepe incertain or wild whether to goe For the common ensigne albeit caried principallie by a traitour yet ever told them where the true church dwelt even where Sathan his throne was so as comming to the ensigne tanquam ad op●rtunum inquirendi exordiū as to a cōvenient entrie to inquire by albeit they did finde both the holy Citie and Court of the Temple trodden vnder foot of the Heathen yet stepping inward there never wanted two olives and two candlestickes in the Temple And thus still also the true church did speak but so as amidst Antichrist his vsurpation while hee seemed without controlment to brooke all and that vnder pretence of the Lambe his hornes nothing was heard in the holy Citie and Court of the Temple but the Dragon his mouth albeit the two witnesses still prophecied and a 144000. sealed and secret ones cleaving constantlie to the Lambe on mount Sion while all the earth followed the beast and worshipping before the throne beastes and elders had a powerfull plentifull dispensatiō of grace like the roare of many waters the noise of strong thundrings and so
Church why doe our adversaries make no end of bitter contention against vs We have indeed great sure promises that the gates of hell shall not prevaile against his Church but that the ordinarie Ministers shall alwayes and all in common holde the trueth not one syllable yea contrarie we have not only manie and serious warnings of false prophetes to arise in the bowells of the church in sheepes clothing but also most clearlie foretold that such an Apostasie should come whereby Antichrist in al effectual deceyt should even sit and beare rule in the Temple of God If they will saye that the Church of Israel had not such promises of continuall presence and preservation of truth as the Christian Church hath It is a treacherous sophisme For they had also sure promises of continuall presence and preservation of truth according to the measure dispensed albeit not of so great measure of presence and light And as for that point whereof our adversaries glorie most and wherein now at last they are faine to place all defence namelie the prerogative of places and persons the Church of Israell had much more for them in so ample and many promises made of Ierusalem And to the house of Levie and familie of Aaron where as the Church vnder the Gospell in which neither at Ierusalem nor in any mountaine but every-where and of all men God is to bee worshipped in spirit and truth albeit having great sure promises of presence and preservation yet of tying God or his truth to any places or persons in all Scripture shee hath not so much as any shew of a warrant which if the holy Ghost had minded hee might with much lesse ado have reduced those many grave and earnest warnings given both by Christ in the dayes of his fleshe and by his Apostles thereafter of the perill of false prophetes and those carefull instructions of notes how to discerne and avoid them to a short and sure compende against all fraude bidding the Church but holde whatsoever the Bishop of Rome did holde for that hee forsooth could not erre If our adversaries yet oppone that howsoever the Church vnder the Law did sometime fall away all in common and that albeit the Christian Church should also in like manner yet the truth of God his promises should not therefore faile but that no such thing hath befallen the Christian Church or could befall her in respect of the great measure of light and cleare dispensation by the Gospell It is many wayes both foolish and impertinentlie alleadged for first it is a plaine taking of that which is in question Next as the state of our question is whither possiblie the Church may erre communiter tota and God his promise yet abyde true to oppone that shee hath not erred is alse ridiculous as if in disputation de iure one should answer de facto If God his promise still may consist albeit shee did so erre wee have the point wee pleade for And whither shee hath erred or not they must of necessitie come with vs to trye by such rules of examination as wee only labour to reduce them to and they in an evill conscience alwayes flee onely crying against vs The Tēple of the Lord The Temple of the Lord And the Church can not erre Thirdlie this their presumption of the ones possible and easie falling away and of the others assured standing in truth grounded vpon the lesse and greater measure of light it sheweth their foolishnes in divine matters For as whatsoever measure of light dispensed is God his free benefite so is our either imbracing or abyding therein his only gift Who as hee iustlie will give over presumptuous and secure men to groape even at noone day so is hee faithfull and wil not suffer his owne to bee tempted above that they are able but will give the issue with the tentation Wee have indeed to glorifie God and even to glorie in him for the huge measure of light and gracefull dispensation by the Gospell but so farre ought men to have bene from vaine boasting thereof or carnall and secure relying thervpon as in all watchfulnes and godly care they should have remembred with all that accordingly Satan was to advaunce the mysterie of iniquitie by all effectual working with all power signes and lying wonders and in all deceaveablenes of vnrighteousnes among them that perish because they receaved not the love of the truth that they might be saved and therefore God should send them strong delusion c. for Sathan as a craftie warriour and subtill enemie reserved and framed his last cunning force and maner of working according as he did see that for deceaving was requisite and accordinglie by God his wise permission iust iudgement obtained a throne even in the temple of God And as in the dealing of God it is not to be esteemed strange that he so farre gave over the world to the efficacie of errour whereby he iustlie punished the contempt of his truth and clearlie foretold the case so is it nothing derogatorie either to his goodnes and truth of his promises made to his Church or to his power of performance as our adversaries because the Lord whom they would make a varlet to their lustes hath iustlie cast dunge vpon their faces therefore by a doting dilemma would inforce vpon vs this blasphemie as a necessarie consec●arie of our doctrine For that if the Church have erred it must have beene that either GOD would not or then that hee could not keepe his promise to her But it is the propertie of their king Abaddon to blaspheme the name of God his Tabernacle and them that dwell in heaven Wee both acknowledge his goodnes and praise his truth and power and confesse that by this course of dealing they are more highlie manifested then if the gates of hell and smoake of the bottomles pit had never assailed the Church Or if the weaknes of men had never appeared to the praise both of his goodnes and power For as his incomprehensible goodnes and constant truth are herein magnified that though all men be liers yet hee abydeth true and the infidelitie of men can not make his promise of none effect so did his infinite power exceedinglie extoll the selfe in this that as hee bringeth light out of darknes and maketh his light to shine in darknes as hee bringeth life out of death and preserveth the children of death so in the middest of Antichrist his vsurpation and such absolute domination in the holy Citie and Court of the Temple the visible Church as no possible meanes appeared of intertaining light yet hee not only all the while preserved two candlestickes and two olives true witnesses and Ministers of light and grace but also when spyed out by Antichrist they were cruellie murthered and in his and his sectatours estimation vtterlie vndone hee revived them in furder vigour to his and their terrour That while all the earth
abused or by fear dismayed as to tolerate spirituall fornication and to receave the name or number of the beast yet they keeped the name of the Lambe his father and never receaved the beast his character of whose murmurings and regrets in despite of all repressing and suppressing tyrannie we could bring divers of vs have more then once brought such instāces from storie as may confirme any cleane hearted man that both sparkles of true light remained and many also were inlightened and lived thereby even while Antichrist by prevayling darknes appeared to obtaine all But to bee drawen childishlie to answer our adversaries heerein according to their perverse minde and prescriptions limitations impudently against al law and reason and in an evidencie of an evill and self-accusing conscience laid down vnto vs it were not only to answer a foole to his foolishnes and so to become a foole with him but it were even to discredit that vndoubted truth which we professe by labouring to prove such a case as is flat contrarie to the clearly foretold course both of God his wise dispensation and by his permission of Sathan his subtill dealing in the mysterie of iniquitie waxing obtayning discovered and overthrowen The holy Ghost hath so clearely foretold both the case and particular course as either our adversaries ignorance is miserable or their perversnes abhominable Wee are forwarned of such an Apostasie as whereby Antichrist shall sit Lieutenant of the Dragon his throne even in the Church of God as even Augustin inclineth to interpret In this vsurpation wee are forwarned that GOD should still have a Church dwelling even where Satan his throne was but with this note of infirmitie that albeit themselves keeping the name of God yet they should be brought to tolerat spirituall fornication And yet even in this case our adversaries will needes have instances given them of open profession and advowed contestation and that in all substantiall points Wee are forwarned that spirituall darknes shall so overgoe Sun and Aire all spirituall both active and passive light in the visible Church as none shal be exempted from the evil arysing thereof Except a few secrete sealed-ones who while all the earth follow the beast shall cleave constantly to the Lambe but so as none shall either heare or learne their song but themselves But our adversaries will have both them and their song not onely even then commonlie knowen and heard but also registrat records thereof remaining We are forwarned that Antichrist shall so tyrannize in the holy City and Court of the Temple the visible church as all true worshippe shal be trodden downe therin as it was in Israel by Iezabell three yeeres and a halve of famine and by Antiochus Epiphanes abrogating the daylie sacrifie and erecting the abhomination of desolation in place thereof the same space and yet that all the while GOD should secretly wonderfully preserve two Candlestiks and two Olyves within the Temple And our adversaries yet will have vs to shew an advowed standing true worshippe all that tyme even in the Citie and Court Now what were this I pray you but either blasphemouslie to belie the holy Ghost or foolishlie to discredit that vndoubted truth which wee holde So miserablie ignorant are our adversaries that they perceave not how that which they most obiect against vs speaketh stronglie for vs and even in that wherein they most glorie is their evident disgrace And yet these demaunds which I have thus shortlie discovered to be impertinent foolish and fraudulent are sent to vs with a supercilious certification that except wee resolve them therin they will account vs c. Satis foresooth pro imperio their c. I warrant you implyeth a ponderous Apostopesis of much worse then they would say out or yet their Paper could beare without blushing yet they can account no worse of vs then their companions in spirit did of our Lord and maister whom they called a Samaritan and a Devill And with them wee can neither exspect nor covet to bee in any better account except wee were lyars and murtherers like themselves But wee passe verie little to be iudged of such as the Lord in iustice hath given vp to mindes void of all true iudgement And shal any terrour then of this their supercilious certificat stirre vs to play the fooles in answering thē in that which a 1000. times already hath ben evinced That as now to escape taking they have in an evil conscience start from the questiō of our vocation to these demaūds of our doctrine so when they ar reduced of new to any strait herein they may al 's shamelesly cast in again to vs. O but where is your calling Shall we labour to resolve those who even professe that they are in nothing so much resolved as in this that they will never either seek for or admit any resolution shal we either disput with such Doctours as give their disciples infallibly to hold or take paines for resolution of such disciples as readily receave believe maintain that for them to read scripture is not only a profitles but also a perillous exercise that the true sense of the holy Ghost of scripture may be more certainly had from the Doctours then from scripture and that yet through their diversity of opinions even doubtfull delivery therof wherthrough the protestāts plead that the most approoved Fathers stand for them so incertaine also is any resolution that way that to have the soule fully setled it must simply wholy rely vpon the iudgemēt determination of the church which the ghostly Father will take vpon his soul to be only that Rome that in any case all conference with ministers all reading of their workes and hearing of their sermons be carefully eschewed And if vpon any necessitie it should befal them at any time to be present at a preaching then either to sleep or stoppe their eares or if they must here yet that they never suffer their hearts once cōdescend to esteeme any better of them how plainly powerfully or holily soever they appeare to speake but that it is Sathan speaking to them in a man his semblance These late arrived Rabbies who are so securely roving in these quarters and subverting instable soules and their disciples also who give them so glad eares know very well if I have heere summarily comprysed and rightly recounted to them the compend of their Ca●echisme So as in conference with some of ours one did not stick ô prodigious blasphemy to answer away with your Scripture you may proove a hundreth lyes from Scripture And is it with such Doctours as deny the principles and destroying all true grounds of resolution will tye men to fansies of their owne imposing that wee should disput Or have we to busie our selves for resolving of such disciples as because the shining light of the Gospell cannot bee gotten extinguished therefore either gladly learne wilfully to winck at it or