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A88157 An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth. Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657. 1645 (1645) Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845 46,842 48

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Cup which shee hath filled to us let us fill to her d●uble for she hath beene exceeding proud against the Lord of Hoasts even against the Holy One of Israel Jer. 50.8.14.29 51.6.9.10 Rev. 18.4.5.6 And also I will maintaine that the Church of Rome as it is called and as at this day it stands and hath done for above a Thousand years neither is nor never was a true visible Church of Christ It is true there was a true Church in Rome and at Rome but never of Rome the members of which were Saints and Beleevers but the Church of Rome now consists of all sorts and kinds of wicked and ungodly persons which they force by spirituall Tyranny if they refuse to submit unto them Rev. 13.15.16 Yea the common Strumpets Whores that pay so many thowsands in the year to the Popes Gracelesse Impiety for keeping publique and open Stew-houses even in Rome it selfe for all eommers and goers are as good members of the Church thereof and as well accepted of as the best they have And thus I have punctually answered the second thing that you desire your friend to take notice of which is that Corruptions may be in a true Church which I have granted but yet have proued that it is their sinne the continuance in their corruptions will overthrow their Essence being make Christ to begon from them and so unchurch them Also I have shewed that it serves nothing to the benefit of your Church seing you are not able to prove that ever it was true Now to that which I have said and by the Authority of the sacred word of God proved I chalenge your particular and punctuall Answer in writing wishing you to goe to W. B. and G. W. who hoth have been main sticklers enemies of late to the truth of God professed by the totall Seperation and desire their best and ablest asistance for I beleeve that some of your nine flexible Erronious Antichristian Argumenss were digged out of their Leaden Mines wherefore with importunity without any deniall desire them to helpe you to reply in writing to this my publique answer otherwise I will say and proclaime it that you all three are fearefull cowards and but the ignorant darke night bragging and screeching Owles of Antichrist Now out of that you have largely proved you say but I affirme you have proved nothing at all to the purpose you infer those four Conclusions 1. That all the Descriptions Definitions of a visible Church given by the Separation are all false because they will have none but Saints in their Church to be the matter of it 2. That all their buildings are false 3. That the ground of their Separation is not sound seing that in a true visible Church there have beene knowne wicked men 4. From hence you infer that it is lawfull and warrantable to have spirituall Communion mith known wicked men in a religious worship seing they are the greatest part of a visible Ch. then to conclude all you say many more things you might have set downe if time had permitted but these you say are sufficient To which I answer that these four Conclusions are all of them wicked Antichristian and damnable without all warrant in the least from the Scripture as as I have already largly proved therefore they are not in the least sufficient to satisfie the Conseicnce of any man or woman I trvly desire to walk-in Gods ways therefore if you would still keepe your Freind a subjected servant to Antichrist as you your selfe are then publiquely in writing aunswer that which here I have writ otherwise I beleeve and hope that you will loose her with many moe besides ere long so leving you unto Baall for whom you plead and stand vp salyng with the spirit of God in Rev. 22.11 he that is unjust let him be unjust still and he that is filthy let him be filthy still and he that is righteous let him be righteous still he that is holy let him be holy still yet for all that if you belong to Gods Election of Grace I desire for you as it is my duty that God would reveale his truthe counsels and secrets unto you which he doth lesse or more to all those that truly feore him Ps 25.12.14 Pro. 3.32 Mar. 4.34 and that you may give true declaration of your unfained repentance for your great sin for standing for Antichrists Kingdome with all your might and for so bitter and malitious opposing and reviling the truth of God and the true professours thereof which if God give you not grace to doe assuredly know that seeing you have fallen upon the cheife corner stone Jesus Christ he will destroy and breake you but if he fall upon as you may justly feare he will grind you all to dust and powder Mat. 21.44 Therefore as you love your soule looke to it seeing you are now admonished by me your Opposite And so I rest your opposing Oppugner in the truthes behalfe against all Antichrist are ●…ours and maintainers thereof though in most cruell and close imprisonment in Irons with my bloody Prelaticall enemies desire and hope will shortly put a period to my dayes John Lilburne Anno. 1638. which to me is the second yeare of Remembrance and the 21 yeere of my age From the Fleet the Prelats fiery Furnace yet to me God ●hat made it a delightsome and rejoycing Pallace and Castle in which I stand Sentinell night and day to defend Sion the City of the living God from her enemies and to oppose all her opposers desiring all my fellow brethren that professe the same truth with me as valiant and worthy Soldiers of Jesus Christ to lend me their best and corragious assistance with the choysest of their spirituall weapons that sowe may haue in hand with violence ●…ble downe in the ground the tottering confused Tower of Babel These Verses were my meditations one night in my close Imprisnment after the reading of a pamphlet sung in the streets of London in which I was joyned as a Traytour with the Scots at their first comeing into England The Lord our God is both firme and stable And all his Councels and Decrees unalterable Which when they surly shall accomplish'd be The downfall of his enemies we shall see Which I by faith doe apprehend to be at hand Which fils my soule with zeale full fast to stand To that renowned cause for which in bonds I lye Seeing his prayse and truth doth spread thereby O happy be the day that he me brought Unto my sorrowes for they unto my thought doe serve to be the choysest safety can be found Upon this vaine and empty earthly ground For in them my soule such large experience hath got Of that celestiall tresure that ne're shall rot But will for ay and ay endure As long as God's both stable firme and sure The like whereof I apprehend can not be had As liberty though my estate esteem'd be had Therefore for ever praysed be my God That no my house of clay hath laid his rod In loving kindnes mercy and in favour That so my soule from him might never waver Wherefore before I will his Truth deny Resolv d I am at Stake to dye John Lilburne Errata p. 2. l.r. Deut. 16.16 p.l. 12. r to you my l. 18. that her l. 16. r. so knit l. 29. r. ordination of p 6. l 11. r. best p. 9. l. 41. r. one of p. 10. l. 16. dele 54. 7. l. 91. r. yet for all p. 12. r. of faith l. 29. and unlesse l 31. dele without a lawfull authority given and received from him p 14. l. 13 they are p. 19. l 3. r. to observe l. 19. r. I challenge l. 20. r. your people p. 20. l. 28. r. bind p. 21. l. 21. r. feeding p. 25. l.r. therefore p. 26. l. 28. r. Gal. 5. p. 30. l. 25. r. failings p. 31. r. only p. 36. r. vnder l. r. of l. in Syon p. 39. l.r. never can be p. 40. l. 13. dele though FINIS
nationall churches cityes or daughters that depend vpon her one of which England is and woe to that man at that day that is found within her territories or the Paile of her great catholike church or the walls of her great wide and farre spread spirituall citty Alas man there is a great deale of difference betwixt King Edwards and Queen Maryes times and ours now the martyrs and people of God were then but newly enlightned to see the blake and spirituall darke Kingdome of Satan and Antichrist in which they were brought up the darkenesse whereof was so great the Sun and the Aire was both clouded Rev. 9 2. and the bright shining light of the old and new Testament shut vp in much obscurity to what it is now and they did but see the abominable wickednes of his kingdome a farre of like the man in the Gospell whose eyes Christ opened who at his first looking up did see men walking a farre off like trees even so they saw but the truthes a farre off which made them rejoyce at a little Reformation and highly to esteeme of those things in the worship and service of God that now are made manifest by the light of truth before the open Sun to be no fitter for Gods worship and Service then kennell dirte being meer Idols and those Idolaters that communicate with them and though they rejoyced at a little Reformation of Antichrists errours but now it is made manifest that no Reformation of his Kingdome will serve the turne but it must be now annihilated and nullified before the visible Kingdome of Christ can flourish and become the praise of the whole Earth and you know and confesse they would have no Communion with the Church of Rome from which they thought they had seperated neither with that abominable Idoll the Masse which you confesse they counted detestable though they had communion with the Church of England and the Service-Booke but now the Church of England is proved againe and againe by hundreds of the Seperation and others in their disputes Sermons and writings to be as Antichristian as the Church of Rome and the Service Booke to be as detestable as the Idol of the Masse being even one and the same with it saving that it is in Latine and this in English as Noble Dr. Bastwicke hath proved And what though the abomination and fornication of that great Red WHOORE of Rome in King Edwards time was not so fully laid open but that the Martyrs and chosen people of God did then commit some spirituall Fornication with her must we therefore doe the like no God forbid for the Lambe that standeth upon mount Syon with an Hundred fourty and four Thowsand of his Elect and chosen ones having his Fathers name written in their Foreheads hath proclaimed and made it manifest that Babilon or spiritaall Rome is now fallen and is become the habitation of Divells and tho hold of every soul spirit and the Cage of every uncleane and hatefull Bird with whom Gods people now at no hand are not to be mixed in spirituall Society or Communion And what though the everlasting Gospell then was not so fully preached and revealed as now it is so that Gods people then were exceeding ignorant of it and by their blindnesse thought they thought they had seperated away from the Beasts Kingdome yet were they in it and did worship him must it then follow that we must doe so too no for now the great City Rome is much more fallen and descovered then it was and now a third Angell hath proclaimed it with a lowd voyce having his Commission from God so to doe that seing now the Booke is opened and the trueth of the everlasting Gospell is preached and Light is now brought into the world so that now if after all this a man worship the Beast and his Image or receive in his right hand or in his forhead his marke the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is powred out without mixture into the Cup of his Indignation and he shall be tormented with Fire and Brimstone in the presence of the Angells and in the presence of the Lambe and the smoke of their Torment ascended up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night that worship the Beast or his Image or receive the marke of his Name Rev. 14.8.9.10.11 Wherefore saith the Spirit of God Came out of her any people that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receive not of her plagues chap. 18.5 here is the expresse command of God himselfe to all his chosen and elect ones to separate away from all Antichristian Assemblies and not in the least to partake with them in any of their worship ordinances or administrations which precept if any of them refuse to obey let them know that God will plague them and though for his Covenant sake he save their soules yet it will be through much difficulty accompaned with many an heavy and sad heart and many a bitter uncomfortable Crosse Therefore let all Gods people that yet are in her or in the bosome of the Church of England her daughter as they love their own inward peace and spirituall joy and looke that their soules should prosper and florish with grace and Godlines looke to it and withdraw their spirituall obedidience and subjection from all Antichrists Lawes and worship and now joyne themselves as fellow Cttizens of the City of God to worship and serue him in mount Syon the beauty of holynesse and there only to yeild all spirituall obedience to Christs spirituall Lawes and Scepter Now my Opposite I have fully by the authority of the sacred and pure word of God particularly answered your trifling childish and frothy arguments and proved against you and them that the church ministery and worship in England is all of them Antichristian from which all Gods people are bound in consolence ind in paine of undergoing the Lords high displeasure hnd indignation and heing portakers of his fearfull and dreadfull plagues to separate away from it and to have no communion with it Therefore to you my Opposer I say with the Prophet to backstyding Israel I● God be God follow him or if Baall or Antichrist or Rome he God then follow him And so much for the Answering of your erronious Arguments BUt now you will it may be say if salvation as you have confessed and proved may be had in a false Ch. yea in no Gh. then wherefore doe you enter into and become a member of a true Church My Answ to this is in the first place negatively I doe not enter thereinto for to be saved thereby or for to seeke for Jesus Christ as though I wanted either for I have both Christ and salvation as all those ought to have that become fellow citzens of the City of God as I have before largely proved neither doe I enter into into it to live securely and carelesly in sin
pleasure loosenes of life and conversation no none such are fit to be there and if any such creepe in thither us it is possible they may they ought to be cast out from them 1 Cor. 5.13 But affirmatively in the second place I answer That I enter into it First in obedience to Gods command Es● 26.20 who hath commanded and enjoyned me and all his faithfull people to become Citizens of his City and members of his visible church there to worship him Syon the beauty of holynes according to his owne Lawes and appoyntment Againe I enter into a true Church estate to honour and glorifie my God who hath passed by so many thousands as he hath done and left them in their sins and yet hath chosen me freely before the foundation of the world was laid out of the riches and abundance of his grace and through and for his Son Christ my Saviours sake by whose blood my soule is washed and cleansed from all my sins and pollutions and presented spoiles and blameles before his and my heavenly father by which I am made fit being an beir of glory to partake with him in eternall glory in the never ending Kingdome of glory with unspeakable grace mercy and favour ties and binds me to walke uprightly and is blameable without feare or selfe respects in all his wayes and commaunds and with all my strength and might to set forth his prasie and to honour and glorifie his great and holy name which is done by my publike and open professing of the purity of his truth and walking inoffensibly and unreproveable in all his pathes endeavouring to the utmost of my power being assisted with his renuing spirit who is the worker of all my workes in me and for me to yeild willing and cheerfull obedience to all his Lawes commaunds by the doing of which light doth shine so before men that they may see my good workes and so glorifie my father which is in heaven Also by this I become a witnesse bearer against the world leaving them without the least excuse before God in the day of their great accon●nt in that I esteem the enjoying of God in his Christ above all earthly favours riches the sweetnes of which makes me with wilingnes and cheerfulnes freely willingly to part with all worldly treasures delights pleasures aed with rejoyceing glorying to suffer persecution tribulation and all sorte of affliction for the enjoying of him and yet though I professe the truth of God amongst the men of the world and doe so highly prize it and esteem it worthy the loosing of my life for it yet they neither doe nor will imbrace it has despise and reject it which makes their sin inexousable Also I enter into a true church estate as into a speaciall place of shelter and resume Esa 4.5.6 where God in an espeaciall manner hath promised to be a shielder defender of me from harmes and dangers which when I see are I may presse him with the makeing good of his promise who in especiall manner hath promised to be an hiding place to his people walking here in his wayes whereas though I be his yet if I walke in false wayes and have communion with false Assemblyes which it is possible for Gods owne people to doe then am I without all promise of protection peace and comfort for God is terrible and dreadfull out of his holy place or in false wayes or in wayes of our owne invention we shall neither find nor know prace Esa 29.13 50.10 59.8.10.11 he hath threatned to curse those blessings that are got therein Mal. 2.2 for the vine thereof is as the vine af Sodom of the feilds of Gomorah their grapes are grapos of gall and their clusters are bitter their wine is the poyson of Draggans and the cruell venome of Aspes Deut 32.32.33 but his visible Ch. or Kingdom is his City walled Rev. 21 which he will save protect his vineyard fenced Esa 5. which he will keep Esa 27.3 his Garden enclosed which he will preserve his Spring shut up which he will de end his fountaine sealed which he will not suffer to be be broaken open Can. 4.2 his body pelitique over which he ●s Head Ephes 1.22 and therefore bearing a a tender love to the members thereof Ephes 5.23.25.30 he will not suffer them to be wronged but will defend them from their enemies and keep them in the midst of all afflictions Esa 43.1.2 41.10.11.14 54.17 Heb. 13.5.6 Also I enter into a true Ch. estate there to find Gods espeaciall presence which he hath promised therein Psal 0.11 4.6.4.5.68.16 Jer. 8.3 Rev. 21.3.22.23 and that I might grow increase in grace which he hath promised there Ps 132.13.14.15.16 133.3 Jer. 8. for he hath said he will water it every moment Esa 27.3 that so his people may become fruitfull and grow ●d like tall Cedars in Lebanon Lastly I enter into it that I might draw more to my God and gaine more and more spirituall fellowship and communion with him and that I might make my election salvation sure that so an enterance abundantly may be administred unto me to enter into the everlasting Kingdome of our Lord Saviour Jesus Christ 9 Pet. 1.10.11 and that so I may walke comfortably irejoyceingly cheerfully as it doth become one vnited to the Lord of glory in the professing of whom alone so much riches treasure comfort rejoyceing and unspeakeable joy is to be found had that a beleiver may spend largely plentifully all his dayes upon and live like a King and be never able to exhaust it And those are my reasons amongst many others Wherfore though God hath manfested his love and kindnes unto me in his son yet I desire according to my duty to enter into a visible Church as a visible christian there publikely in the eyes of his people to worship and serve hem only according to his owne Lawes without any mans inventions whatsoever But now to say a litle to that which followeth your Arguments and so I will conclude You desire to let your Freind know there have been known wicked men in a true Ch. and therefore though in the Ch. of Eng. there be all sorts of wicked men yet Gods people may have communion with them because there were wicked men in the Ch. of the Jewes and the Corinthes And this is that you labour to prove let me tell you you might have saved your selfe a great deale of paines for the Separation de confessi acknowledg that there hath been wicked men and also corruptions in a true Ch. and that still may so fall out that yet in may be so and yet not the essence of it destroyed but what get you by this for this will not serve turne to warrant communion with the Ch. of Eng. in regard I groundedly absolutely deny that either the Ch. of Eng. is or ever was a true Ch.