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A12592 A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie. Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them. 1588 (1588) STC 22909; ESTC S117654 118,250 200

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which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry Paul communicated since his conuersion with those Priests that were as vnlearned as euer any Which he would not haue done if inabilitie to teach had made them no Priestes R. Some Then in M. Penryes iudgement the holy Apostle was not polluted by communicating with vnpreaching Ministers Can any man if he haue but halfe an eye suspect that M. Penry dissenteth from me in iudgement What then may I thinke against whom he hath written Well I must be content with the measure he offereth me My comfort is that he shall gaine and I lose nothing by it Yea I assure my selfe by Gods grace that Gods Church shal gaine by this difference Hee pretendeth great desire of a learned Ministerie but his eagre defence of ignorāt Leuiticall priests bewrayeth him If I had written so much for ignorant Ministers the great bell had bene rung out before this I should haue had it on both sides of mine eares I haue dealt very earnestly and humbly by writings and speache for a learned Ministerie I haue receiued very comfortable answere of very great and honourable personages who haue alreadie thankes be to God employed some and will I doubt not employ more in the Churches seruice The Lord increase that blessing for his Christs sake The marke I feare which M. Penry leauels at is simply to condemne the outwarde calling of the Ministers in our Church and so to shake hands with the Anabaptisticall Recusants Though he hit not that white hee will hardly misse that Butte If hee bee throughly searched it is not vnlike to fall out so Some part of his writings looke shrewdly that way CHAP. 2. ALMIGHTIE GOD NEVER called any to the holy ministerie either in the olde or newe Testament but he furnished them with giftes fitte for that holy function THE Israelites liued in slauerie and drudgerie in Egypt They were as rude grosse as might be When the Lord would make his Tabernacle he furnished Bezaleel Aholiab of the tribes of Iuda Dan for that excellent worke He gaue them skill in working all kind of broiderie Exo. 31. 36. chap. When Salomons Temple should be built Almightie God furnished Hiram of Tyrus for that stately worke 1. Kin. 7. If Almightie God for the framing and building of the Tabernacle and Temple which were figures of the Church did so excellently beautifie Bezaleel Aholiab and Hiram it is great wickednesse to thinke that his Maiestie did euer send any vnfurnished to build his spirituall Tabernacle and Temple which is his spouse bodie Citie c. When the Lord commaunded Aaron Eleazar c. to be consecrated his Priests and consequently to teach to pray for the Israelites and to offer sacrifices in which three branches the Priests office consisted he furnished them with excellent furniture for that honourable seruice The words of God himselfe are cleare for this My couenant was with Leui of life and peace and I gaue him feare and he feared me and was afraide before my Name The Lawe of trueth was in his mouth and there was no iniquitie found in his lips he walked with me in peace and equitie and did turne many away from iniquitie Mal. 2. It is a positiue law of Almightie God The Priests lips shall keepe knowledge c. Mal. 2. It is a Canon of the Apostle A minister must be apt to teach 1. Tim. 3. If Almightie God had by any warrant of his commended the Israelites heretofore to the charge of ignorant Leuites or his Church since to ignorant ministers he had broken a statute lawe and Canon of his owne and had bin greatly touched in honor Those Leuiticall priests were sent of God and pastors according to his heart which were able to feede Gods people with knowledge and vnderstanding Iere. 3. Those Leuitical priests which were vnfit to teach were neuer of Gods sending though they were of the line of Aaron Almightie God disclaimes them in these wordes My people are destroyed for lacke of knowledge because thou hast refused knowledge I will also refuse thee that thou shalt be no priest to me Hose 4. Esay was a famous man for birth and eloquence Before that hee was sent to denounce and deliuer Gods iudgements and mercies to Ierusalem and Iuda c the Lorde did singularly furnish him with knowledge speach courage c. Esa 6. and 50. Chap. Ieremy was an excellent Prophet When the Lord would vse his seruice he touched his mouth furnished his heart c. Iere. 1. In like sort dealt Almightie God with Micheas he made him a complete man Mich. 3. Elizeus attended on the plough 1. Kin. 19. Amos on the herde Amos 1. and 7. Chap. The Lorde did not vse the ministerie of Elizeus and Amos vntil he had furnished them with skill wisedome courage c. Our Sauiour Christ did not send any vniuersitie men at the first to preach the Gospel least the conuersion of men should be attributed to learning and eloquence He called rude and base men from their occupatiōs to be his Apostles Before he sent them to be his trumpets to deliuer his message he cast them as it were into a newe molde he gaue them speciall furniture Iohn 20. Act. 2. If the Lorde Iesus had not dealt thus with them how could they haue acquited themselues in preaching and disputation as they did for they attended before on fishing and other trades Saint Paul setting out in orient colours the largesse and bountie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church after his Ascension hath these wordes He gaue some to bee Apostles and some Prophets and some Euangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the ministerie and for the edification of the body of Christ Eph. 4. If these here mentioned had bin vnfurnished First Christs gift had beene no benefite but a burthen Secondly how shoulde the Saints haue bene gathered his body built his sheepe fed his spouse garnished Those Princes and Captaines which send vnskilfull Ambassadours vntrained souldiers on ambassade and warfare doe greatly stayne and dishonour themselues Almightie God which is the greatest Prince and most valiant Captaine did neuer fault in this If he had hee had giuen his glory and the Church a grieuous blowe I confesse God giues not to all his seruants like furniture Some haue ten some fiue some two some one talent which talēts must neither be buried in the earth nor wrapped in a napkin If they be vsed they will multiplie as the loaues in the Gospel They which cannot feede with manchet must feede with barlie bread Rammes skinnes goates haire were amongst the holy offrings as well as gold siluer brasse purple c. Exod. 25. If none are called by almightie God to the holy ministerie but such as he hath furnished with giftes in some measure it is the duety of the ciuill and ecclesiasticall magistrates to prouide that
according to his owne reuealed ordinance vnto those who may truely obiect vnto him that he dealeth iniuriously with them by exacting those things to be perfourmed at their hands and in their owne persons as necessary duties of their callings vnto the performance whereof they haue receiued no abilitie from him Is man to be answerable vnto the Lord of that which he neuer receiued doeth the Lord require the vse of that talent which he neuer bestowed doth he lay that vpon any whereof he may haue iust cause to complaine When did he impose a charge vpon any vnto whom he gaue not gifts to discharge the same nowe the charge of soules which he committeth vnto any he requireth at their hands vnto whom he hath committed it which he could not doe if he had not giuen abilitie to the discharge thereof R. Some I haue proued before Chap. 2. that almightie God furnished such as he called to the holy ministerie in the old and newe Testament I rest in that If his Maiestie which is farre from him either had or did commit the charge of soules to such as haue no mettall in them hee might be iustly conuinced of and chalēged for iniuirious dealing with them No good Captaine will send his souldier naked into the fielde against an armed enemie You write that God dealeth iniuriously with men by exacting those things to bee performed at their handes and in their owne persons as necessary dueties of their callings vnto the performance whereof they haue receiued no abilitie from him c. You referre this speach I am sure to the Ministers To take you otherwise were to wring your words and to misconstrue you I wil not offer you such measure therefore I leaue you a litle while and to tel the godly Reader that the Pelagians in Augustines time and the Papists in our time reason in this sort Almightie God requireth nothing at our hands vnto the performance whereof he hath not giuen abilitie therefore the regenerate are able to fulfill the Law of God in this life This argument was and is accompted of the Pelagians and Papists an inuincible reason but it is a very simple one I denie the Antecedent c. The reason is God requireth of vs the fulfilling of the Lawe but the regenerate are not able to fulfill it That this point may bee better vnderstanded I will set downe my proposition and reasons in the ende of this booke I. Penry What then shall ignorant ministers be free from the blood of soules in asmuch as the Lorde neuer committed any soule vnto their charge It were well with them poore men if the case so stood But alas it is not so And yet the cause of their destruction proceedeth not from their vnfaithfulnes in the discharge of that vocation which he hath allotted vnto thē but it commeth iustly vpon them in that they haue desperatly thrust them selues contrary vnto Gods reuealed will vpon those men with the ouersight of whose soules God neuer trusted such as they are The Lorde sayth vnto them intrude your selues and you will vnto the places of pastors and so enforce me to bring heauy and swift damnation vpon you but surely I will bequeath no soule vnto your custodie They on the other side in their practise say Lord whether thou committest vnto vs any charge of any soule or no we care not but rather then we should not haue the meanes to liue in this life for this is their onely scope in continuing in the ministerie require the blood of soules and what thou wilt at our hands And so senseles men they sell themselues body and soule vnto euerlasting wo and destruction R. Some I am so farre from being a defence to ignorant either Leuits before or Ministers now that I confesse freely that their entrance into the priesthoode and ministerie and continuance in it most absurdly was and is a greeuous sinne If the Lord hath or shall punish them seuerely for their instrusion into so high a calling they cannot plead not guiltie If they doe it is in vaine for at Gods barre they shall not be acquited You write that the ignorant ministers whome you call senselesse men doe sell themselues bodie and soule to euerlasting destruction Your speech is true Illi viderint Let them if they be not gracelesse and shamelesse looke vnto it All that I say vnto it is the Lord for his Christs sake heale that sore It is not so grieuous thankes be to God as it was I assure my selfe it will bee lesse I woulde to God it were none I. Penry The pretence that the Lord committeth the charge of soules vnto their ministerie and not vnto them is first a desiring of that in question for they are denied to haue any ministerie and otherwise many wayes vnsufficient 1 Because the Lord committeth not the charge of soules there where the punishment of their destruction cannot take holde as it can not vpon the ministerie 2 the ministerie is but a dead thing of it selfe most beautifull in deede as being an ordinance of the Lorde but able to saue none vnlesse it be committed vnto a person who in the execution thereof is able to shewe himselfe to be appointed of God for that glorious worke This is taught Ephes 4. where the Apostle verses 6. and 7. hauing spoken of the giftes bestowed vpon men for this ministeriall worke ascribeth vers 11.12 the gathering together of the Saints not vnto the giftes or functions but vnto men endued with the said gifts For he doth not say that the Lord hath appointed for the gathering together of the Saints an apostleship a pastorall or doctorall function c. but that he ordained apostles pastors c. for that end and purpose whereunto because our readers were not appointed it forcibly ensueth that they haue no ministerie no pastorall or doctorall function and so are no ministers which conclusion also in the last edition of mine exhortation vnto my countreymen I haue enforced by many strong and as I am assured inuincible reasons drawen out of the infallible trueth of Gods worde R. Some What other men doe or will pretende I cannot tell I am fully perswaded that Almightie God did neuer commit his sheepe souldiers citie to foolish shepheards vnskilfull captaines blinde watchmen Such shepheards captaines watchmen were your ignorant Leuiticall Priests whose entrance and continuance in the priesthoode are condemned by the written worde The line of Aaron was not strong ynough to breake the cords of Almightie God Such shepheards captaines watchmen are our ignorant ministers Let the ignorant Leuites and ministers be matched together good M. Penry They must needes saile in one shippe fight vnder one banner and bee condemned at one barre and yet I graunt that your ignorant Leuites which were neuer called of God but of the Iewish Church did offer and deliuer the Legal Sacrifices and Sacraments and that the godly Communicants were not polluted by their ignorance You must of force graunt me