out of the six hundred next after Christ And this is that which deserueth iust Indignation that any man bearing the Person and Face of one that had discretion or Conscience should bind an other to a certaine compasse of Time and Yeres which in no case he should passe in Debating of any controuersie And yet would in the meane Time himselfe Argue Reason and Conclude out of any Time and require to haue it stand for profe good and sufficient of his owne Assertions And to vse that kind of Libertie or Prerogatiue not only when he speaketh ad hominem that is to the Meaning Sense Opinion or Fancie of the man with whom he hath to doe but also ad rem that is according to his owne Meaning Iudgment in which he taketh the testimonies by himselfe alleaged to perteine Directly and in deede to Confirmation of the cause which he susteineth Yet as I saied before let M. Iewels excuse be that he hath vsed Late wâ—yters Testimonies not for any stay of his own Opinions the contrary whereof I haue shewed but to stop only D. Hardinges mouthe and to set one Papist against an other Let him so saie and let vs so take it yet is this no indifferent dealing For if he wil bind vs to the first six hundred yeres and himselfe yet will presse vs with Authorities of later age either he mindeth that we shall Answer him in them or holde our peace and be still If we shall answer why apointed he the Lymites of six hundred yeres to be kept of vs For when he prouoketh vs with mater collected out of the cumpasse of them we must needes come also out of them and ioyne with him therevpon And if he minded that we should not at all Answer him and that himselfe yet would Obiect suche Testimonies vnto vs Why did he then Obiect them Except we shall Iudge of him that he is so Folishe as to apoint it or so Proude and Stately as to conceiue it that it maye be lawfull for him in fighting against his Aduersarie to haue certaine Places open vnto his Desperate Foynes and that no Warding of the Daunger and no Buckler should be vsed And therefore It is not to be graunted vnto you M. Iewel to Bind vs to the first six hundred yeres And to be Loose yourselfe concerning any witnesse or Authoritie of the nine hundred folowinge To set vs within a Circle and yourselfe to Discourse out of Order and Cumpasse To forbid vs the Alleaging of S. Bernard and yet to charge vs with the Opinion of Michael Uehe or any such other No Sir to the first six hundred you haue Appealed to the first six hundred only you shall stand If you wil Replie they be our owne Doctoures and therefore we maye not Refuse them We Answer shortly vnto you that whereas in your Singulare Iudgement they be no Doctoures at all And whereas you will not Suffer them to be Oâ—res Or that we maie alleage them and recite theÌ„ as our own we therefore in this Case and State of Reasoning with you doe not take them for our owne Yea they must be so compted vpon and so set aside as if they wer no mens witnesses at all Because you in Drawing the mater to the first six hundred yeres only doe Import and Conclude thereby that of al later Times and Writers you would haue A sad Silence to be agreed vpon and kept But where will M. Iewels Glorie be then And if he himselfe shall vse no Testimonie vnder the first vj. C. yeres how litle wil his Replie be How vncertaine must his Answers be How greate Blindnes and Silence must he come vnto Take away from M. Iewel and his felowes the last nine hundred yeres and you take away from them the Flowers of their Diuinitie Out of those yeres they Rake all the euill that is spoken of Popes Cardinals Priestes c. that by reueling other mennes Turpitude they may commend their owne bare Honesties Out of those come many Canons of Councels Constitutions of Emperours Uarieties of Historiographers Conclusions and Distinctions of Schole men in the number of which it is easy to find somewhat alwaies that shall sound against the Catholikes Either because all thinges are not to be taken as they lie but neede an Interpretation either because when many write of one Fact Or intreate of one mater they do not alwaies so throughly agree in euery point of the Historie or Question but that he whome it Pleaseth to striue therevpon with an other may sone find A doubt Or Argument to serue his humor of Contradiction Out of those many Gloses are peeked so Obscure or Trifling that were it not for the Diligence of Heretikes which haue brought them furth in to light They would as litle haue ben sought for of the Catholikes As they are now litle estemed of them when they are Found out and shewed to them by the Heretikes Take therefore the wrytinges of the last nine hundred yeres awaye from the Protestantes and there must needes folow such lacke of mater to make vp their Tales that they will sone be at an end both in writing and in Preachinge And not only concerning their ill Purposes As to bring either the Departed into hatred by opening their faultes Or them that at this Present line into Infamie by charging them with the faultes of their Forefathers but concerning also good and holsome Lawes Decrees Definitions Orders of Gouernement Customes Ceremonies which haue ben in these last nine hundred yeres Wisely apointed aâ—d Profitablie continued If nothing that is testified by the Writings and Practise of them shall stand in any steede to make a Sentence or ArgumeÌ„t what Confusion Contention Destruction Blindnesse Desperatnesse will be caused in both States Spirituall and Temporall It is easy to be perceaâ—ed What Church shall keepe her Priuileges what Clergie continue in any Order of Seruing God what King or Emperour maineteine the Crowne vpon his heade what state of Common wealth in all Christendome maye be defended If the Recordes Wrytinges Answers Decrees Actes Dispensations Conclusions and Lawes of the last nine hundred yeres must be all either vtterly refused Or beter Examined before they be receiued For in these later yeres Countries haue ben conuerted Religion hath ben Planted Heresies by the Authoritie of Councels haue ben condemned The Empire hath ben translated Our owne Realme of England hath ben conquered And in all these so greate pointes the Iudgmente and Sentence of the Pope hath alwaies ben regarded And that which at this day is holden for Truth in A thousand cases both Spirituall and Temporall dependeth in deede vpon the Decree and Order which the Gouernors of the Church for that time made for it and apointed when the case was first moued Or exhibited If therefore no Authoritie or Testimonie of these later nine hundred yeres must be admitted let M. Iewel with all his owne wit And Policy of his frendes byside see how he
within these last fiftene hundred yeares and for aâ—vantage to make the practise thereof a Definitiue sentence This is exceding presuÌ„ptuous and exceding Iniurious and this is that which I shal now laie to M. Iewels Charge ¶ Of M. Iewels exact accompting vpon the vj. C. yeres next after Christ. YOu Appeale M. Iewel most instantly to the Witnesses of the next six hundred yeres after Christ by which you geaue vs to vnderstand that either your giltie CoÌ„science feareth to be tried by God and the Countrie either that your simple vnderstanding conceiueth to helpe your cause by remoâ—ing of it Of which two there is nere a good neither Conscience already condemning you by the verdite of ix C. yeres together Neither lacke of Wit and Consideration mouing you of xv vniforme Witnesses ix put aside to Imagine that the lesser number of vj. only remaining could be so vsed as that they should appeere either contrary to the â—ine Or of more credite and worthinesse then the nine Both which thinges either that the Church of Christe should be contrary to it selfe or in some one part of her Age more worthy of credite than in some other are plainly and vtterly impossible bothe by Faith and by Reason For like as we are assured by right Faith that there is but One God One Iesus Christ God and man One Spirite diuiding vnto eche as he vvill One Bodie One Doue One Louier One Bevvtiful and One Catholik Church so is it impossible by Naturall Reason that of Unitie A Diuision might be made And that one Part might be found contrary to the other or One Part worthier than the other where there is no Partes making at all and therefore no Parts taking at al to cause any Discord Is Christ sayeth the Apostle diuided Is it yea and naâ—e vvith him Yea doth not he himself say Euery kingdom diuided vvith in it seâ—fe shall be left vvaste and desolate And doe not both Testamentes new and old plainely teache that his kingdome is euerlasting How then should his Church be Contrary vnto it self and thereby cumming to Diuision ende afterwardes in Dissolution Againe The Spiritie of Truthe was promised vnto her which should teach her all Truthe and tary also vvith her for euer There be also prouided for her meete Gouernours and Officers to continue with her and serue her to the perfiting of the holy vntill all doe meete togeather in Vnitie of Faith and knovvledge of the Sonne of God so that because of the Authoritie of the Chiefe Master whome it is Impossible to lie And the continuall succession of Ushers vnder him whome he maketh to teach as he Inspireth the Lessons which at this day are readen in the Church ought to be in deede of as greate Credite emong vs as any of the Primitiue Churches lessons Except perchaunce the Sprite be so blinde or blasphemous in any person as to deny his Almightinesse in making of such as dwel in his house of One minde and Accorde Of whose Promise Prouision and Charitie towardes hys church we haue so infallible testimonies Therefore as the Scriptures perswade our vnderstanding to beleue that the Church is One That it shall Continue for euer That it shall neuer Erre in Doctrine so Reason concludeth by this gift and light of Faith that because it is ONE it must either be NONE at all or continue ONE And because IT CONTINVETH FOR EVER it can not therefore be NONE Remaining then ONE it is to be credited without al doubt because it hath the Sprite of Truthe with her and can not erre And as well to be credited now as it was xv huÌ„dred yeres sense because it is ONE and the selfe same nowe as it was then concerning Assistance of the Holy ghost Priuileges of Honour Infalliblenesse of Truthe Or any other like parteining to the very Substance and nature as I may say of the Church of Christ. Like as in your self M. Iewel Or in any of vs the same Reasonable Soule and Sensitiue life that we receyued of God and our Parents at our beginning continueth yet stil w t vs the Self same in substance Notwithstanding many thousand Alterations in Affections of minde and Disposition of body which haue in the meane time chaunced vnto vs And chainged vs in the chaunce so notwithstanding many Alterations which haue bene in the Church of Christ these xv C. yeres concerning external Gouernment thereof and Ecclesiasticall Orders The life yet Soule and Sense therof is of the same making and worthinesse in all Times and Circumstancies In the Opinion and Imagination of fainte harted and weake Christians it appeareth I graunt to be of more Authoritie If Christ in his owne person speaketh than if S. Paule his Apostle by his will and commaundement speake it And no doubt they haue a good Zeale therein often times and Deuotion but they haue not alwaies good knowledge and UnderstaÌ„ding The Maries brought tidinges vnto the Apostles of the Resurrection of our Sauiour and though they were but Women yet they were deuout Wise and blessed women And their sayinges agreed with the woordes of Christ himselfe spoken vnto them before his Passion so that they might well and should haue bene credited Neuerthelesse their wordes seemed vnto the Apostles no better than A Doting and vaine tale And S. Peter ranne to the Sepulchre to see perchaunce whether he coulde finde a better Argument or Testimonye of the Resurrection than the Maries had brought vnto him and his fellowes Which Argument when it was the selfe same daie made after the best maner vnto them that is by Christes owne presence and wordes yet S. Thomas being at that time absent and hearing at his Returne of the sight and ioye which his fellowes had Except I see quod he the print of the nailes and put my hand into his side I vvill not beleue As who should say that he alone could see more in such a matter than ten other Or that if he once tried iâ— and beleued it him self then it were to be bidden by but if he lerned and receiued it of other mens Report and knowledge then loe it was not clear and out of question Yet the Truthe is alwaies Oâ—e And as faithfully it was to haue bene beleued y t which the Maries or Apostles saw and heard As that which S. Thomas not only saw or hard but fealt also Now in these foresaid Persons and Examples the inward and harty deuotion did somewhat extenuate the Carnalitie of the Affection Mary in other Cases it is grosser and viler As when A Noble and Honorable man speaketh A wise worde it is regarded and remembred but when a poore and Simple Soule doth speake the like it lacketh the same Grace and strength with the hearers Yet the Trueth and wisedome of the saying being on both sides all ONE in goodnesse it might well become all men to honor it without Respect of
persons When our Sauiour vpon a time preached in the Synagoge of the Iewes so singularly well that all men wondred at his Doctrine Hovv cummeth this felovve sayed they by all this lerning Is not this he that is the Carpenter the sonne of Mary the brother of Iames and Ioseph Are not his sisters also here dvvelling vvith vs As who should say We know his bringing vp well inough And therefore he is not so greatly to be wondered at Such is the Iudgment of carnall men euen vnto this day They measure Truthes by their Imaginacions And set a great Price on thinges that are farther out of their reach Contemning as good or better than those thinges are when they are easy to be found or alwaies present Which thing If it come of the Misery of our Nature it is to be lamented and the Remedie is to be sought for of hym which therefore toke our whole Nature synne excepted vpon him that by partaking thereof we might be purged of our sinne and Corruption If it come of the Foly of any deintines it is in some parsons to be reproued with fauor like as Children and Women are much to be borne withall in respect of their weakenesse and frailtie If it come of lacke of better Instruction Or dulnesse of vnderstanding as in the Rude and Simple of the Countrie they are to be warned as well as we may and for the rest to be â—raied for and tolerated If it come of some Pride Spite or Contention it is to be condemned and hated what so euer the person be But in M. Iewel whereof may I thinke that this Affection doth come of which I speake For you also in defining of euerlasting Trueth by Terme of yeares doe seeme to haue a spice of their disease which coutemne the good things that are nigh vnto them Shall I Impute this faule vnto the generall Miserie of our nature which was corrupted in our first Parentes God sende you theâ— Grace to resist euill motions And for this which you haue already done Repent and be sory But came it of a certaine wantones or niceues in you that as Childerne craue Dis peece or Dat peece of one and the self same meat or bread Or women loue far-fet and deere bought thinges so you will not be serued but with the Testimonies and Authorities of the firste six hundred yeres of our Lord Truely if it be so you can not loke for the Fauor that childerne and Women haue in their Infirmities Will you haue it then to be attributed vnto lacke of Lerning Or plaine Dulnesse that you are so blinde and blunt as to set at naught the Practise and Euidencies of the Catholike Church for nine hundred yeres togeather It seemeth no because the Opinion vndoubtedlye which your predecessours of late had of their owne Iudgment Knowledge and Wittinesse moued them especially to refuse the Generall and Approued Faith of the world And so I beleue they lacked no wit but only Grace and they were to wise to be Obedient and Faithful How now then Was it any Sprite of Malice or Contention that caused you to rest vpon the first six hundred yeres only that the further you went out of sight you might the more boldly shewe â—oule play Maintaine the quarell Make the victory vncertaine And trouble the lookers on If it be not so we shal easely beleue you if you shew any good Cause or Reason wherefore you haue appealed vnto the first six hundred yeres And so appealed vnto them not as the best time to finde witnesses in but as the only time neither as Preferring those Daies but as Condemning ours But let vs first see the Examples by which your fact and behauioure herein may be Euident And then after we shal the better consider it whether you haue any reason or no to make for you And what by likelihode was the cause which moued you Leontius Bishop of Nicopolis wrot the life of Ioannes Eleemosinari ' an holy man of the first six hundred yeres after Christ. Why should I not beleue Leontius Mary he wrote say you A great while after that And what of that Is S. Bedes History of the cumming of S. Augustine the Monke into England to be discredited because S. Bede began to wryte a great while after S. Augustine was departed this world Or because the next six hundred after Christ were much passed when he wrote it Are the bokes of Genesis in any poynt to be doubted of because they declare the beginning of the world and Actes Dated two thousand yeres before Moyses the wryter of them was borne Yet sayeth M. Iewel against Leontius This one Circumstance of his Latines answeareth the matter wholy And in the margine he geaueth a speciall note M. Harding rangeth without the cumpasse of six hundred yeres Vrbanus Regius a Doctor of Luthers Schoole confesseth in his boke De locis Communibus that in the first Councel of Ephesus an Order was taken for Communion vnder one kinde which he being a Lutherane would neuer haue wryten if he had not found it in some Auncient Record and worthy of credite But Vrbanus Regius say you departed this life not aboue .xx. yeres a goe and therefore is a very yong witnesse to testify a thing done so long time before In deede to testifye it as of certaine sight or knowledge it were hard for so young a witnesse but to testify it as of good Historie and Authoritie it is possyble inough for them which are .xx. yeres younger What shall we thinke of S. Bernard A man not only in his own time of most worthy Estimation and Authoritie but in all the Church euer sence of singular Credite and worthinesse If he were now aliue emong vs And might be seen and heard sensibly would there be found in all the world any man of Honestie or Discretion which considering his Holinesse Wisedome and Grauitie would thinke him A witnesse of litle weight and worthinesse Yet Father Iewel sayeth as though he had bene a Reader of Diuinitie when S. Bernard was yet but A Nouiâ—e in the Faith S. Bernard calleth the washing of feete a Sacrament I graunt But S Bernard was a Doctour but of late yeres and therefore his Authoritie must herein weigh the lesser Was he of so late yeres as Luther Zuinglius Caluine Peter Martir and other Greate Anceters of your new Religion Why dothe not the latenesse of these felowes offend you Why think you the xij C. yeres after Christ to be so farre and wide from his Trueth that no certaintie thereof maye be taken in them And Conclude Determine Protest and Defend that to be Sure and Autentike which riseth xv C. and some odde yeres after Christ Of the like kinde of Imaginacion and Answer it is where you say Lyra and Teâ—tonicus Lyued at the least thirtene hundred yeres after Christe wherefore their Authoritie in this Case must Needes
for these last yeares no Praise or Speaking of Christ at all How is it credible For being but a maÌ„ how should he not by all likelihoode folow the common course of men And if he would needes be Singular how could he discerne betwene the true and the false Opinions of the first six hundred yeres whereas he should finde Examples and Wrytings of both Or not able to discerne betwene them how could he fasten his minde and beleife vpon any one of them bothe except he were A Singular one in deede For wisemen doe not lightly take that way in which they see not either the Towne plainely before them or some Cawsey Pathes or Steps of feete to direct them Neither doe they vse when they goe in the right way and come at lenght to some turning or duble waie to go forward I can not tell how without loking backe if any folow Or loking about if any be within sight but either rest themselues vntill they spie of whome to aske Or goe so doubtefully forward in that which leeketh them that if better Counsell and teaching come vnto theÌ„ they wil be returned and ordered And if it be so in A corporall and visible way ought it not to be much more so in folowing the right way vnto truth of vnderstanding and knowledge And when the whole world taketh one waie Or diuerse cumpanies in the world folow diuerse waies would any man of Discretion be so Bolde or Foolishe as to goe peaking alone by himselfe in such an Opinion or Imagination as no man byside himselfe aloweth And so directly go in it that to liue and die he would not be brought from it If therefore these fortie yeres last past or what so euer it be more that M. Iewel hath liued in the world nor Christ had bene Preached nor the Primitiue Churche commended he could not vndoubtedly by any good Occasion or Reason haue estemed the Christian wryters of a thousand yeres sens Or geauen any Faith vnto Christ. Except we should thinke otherwise than y â— Apostle hath taught vs y â— faith commeth without hearing Or that no man sent for him yet by some Miracle perchannce he was brought vnto Christ. Of which two both are out of course And without some Extraordinary way of making them likely vnto vs both are Unreasonable both are Incredible The present Fame then Renoume Testimonie of this Age drawing men of this Age vnto Christ yet doth M. Iewel so litle set by it as though it were worthy of litle credite or rather none And he so cleaâ—eth vnto those vj. C. yeres past A thousaÌ„d yeres almost sens as though he could be sure of the Catholike true Faith that was then w tout the Testimonies of the Catholike Church now Or as though some secrete Mistery or Securitie were in them to further him in vnreueled Conclusions And exempt him from all Iurisdiction In so much that although in xv C. yeres rekening which the Church hath continued in as it shall to the worldes end viij yeres can not greatly hurt the Accompt Yet so true an Audite of theÌ„ is kept by M. Iewel that he wil not receiue the Testimonies of the viij yeres next after the first vj. C. but noteth in his Booke their cumming to late though they came very nigh His wordes be these M. Harding knoweth wel that this grauÌ„t to be called The Head of al Churches was made vnto Bonifacius the third which was Bisshope of Rome in the yere of our Lord vj. C. and viij Euen at the same very time that Mahomete first began to plant his Doctrine in Arabia And therfore maketh nothing to this purpose as beiâ—g without the cumpasse of six hundred yeres As who should thinke that within those viij yeres on this side the six hundred The Pope and Emperour with the whole world were Sodainely and Straungely conuerted from the Faith and Order which they were of viij yeres before And no Historie mentioning it were made of Pure Protestants Grosse Papists Yea not only of viij yeres aboue the vj. C. he maketh a sad rekoning towards his Uantage but of the vj. C. yere it self if he can bring D. Hardings testimonie so low he so vaunteth and braggeth as though either himself had the Uictorie Or els nothing should be won or lost For whereas D. Harding for profe of y â— Church Seruice in a Straung Tongue and vnknowen to the Uulgare people and that also within the first vj. C. yeres alleaged the cumming of S. Augustine the Monke and our Apostle into England which was by his accompt the 14. yere of Mauritius Emperor the 596. of our Lord. Master Iewel in answering it sayeth Of the 600 â–ª yeres after Christ whervpon Iioyne wish him issue Liberally and of his owne accord he geueth me backe fiue hundred foure scoare and sixtene And of so greate a number as 600. are reserueth vnto himself foure POORE YERES and yet is not very certaine of the same And then it foloweth But if Marianus Scotus accompt be true that Augustine came into this Realme not the fourtienth of the Emperour Mauritius but four yeres after which was iust the six hundred yere after Christ then he reserueth not one yere to himselfe but yeldeth me backe altogeather Loe what a wise contention here is And how sadly M. Iewel foloweth it Did he thinke with himselfe that none but Children or Idiotes would Reade his Replie And if he prouided to make it so as not only Wisemen should consider it but the Aduersarie also might â—e answered by it how could he for shame of the world so Trifle and Wrangle and Set furth himselfe so much vpon so litle occasion For if the vj. C. yeres shall trie the mater he that cometh four yeres before they be ended commeth time inough to confute M. Iewel And his Cause therefore being lost Or his Bragging at least confounded if in any time before the vj. C. yeres expired the contrarie to this Assertion may be proued Why should he call them foure Poore yeres or set them at naught which making to the number of the first 600. yeres are part of the yeres vpon which he ioyned Issue and are by his apointement of greate Authoritie The crake herein is like as if one should say In all S. Augustines workes you shal not finde this worde Missa and thervpon I wil ioyne with you as though a great point of Diuinitie consisted herein An other answeareth yeas Mary I finde the worde in such and such Sermons Then Replieth the ChalleÌ„ger Of so great a number of Tomes as S. Augustine hath writen of so many bokes in euery Tome c. as far as his Rhetorike permitteth you geaue me backe Liberally And of your owne accord al the sort of them almost and reserue vnto your selfe two POORE SERMONS and yet are you not very certaine of them whether they be S. Augustines or â—oe As if he should say I layed
hard to his charge and there was but two poore places betweene me and the victorie which although he hath ouer me yet it shal not be saied that I lost it easely and he shal not crake or triumph that he came lightly by it Confer now this Example with M. Iewels forsaied wordes The place is before thee and being so plaine as it is it greueth me to spend time in Repeâ—ing and Applying it But M. Iewel goeth further he will not leaue so much as one yeres vantage to D. Harding For If Marianus Scotus accompt be true Note here that you know not your selfe what to answer absolutely then M. Harding reserueth not one yere to himself but yeldeth me backe altogeather Goe to M. Iewel be it so Let D. Harding geaue â—uer all other vantage and let it be supposed which yet is most false that he had brought nothing for the profe of the Publike Seruice in the Uulgare Tonge biside this Historye of S. Augustines planting the Christian Religion in England Thus much only then is concluded y â— iust in the vj. C. yere after Christ what so euer it was before The Publike Seruice was in some place in such a tongue as the vulgare people did not vnderstande And what now shall we say to it Where is the Uictorye On your side or D. Harding But first it would be knowen whether you at the beginning did take the vj. C. yeres Exclusiue or Inclusiue And whether you meant that if to the last day of the six hundred yere any thing should be founde against you you would subscribe Or els that if your Aduersaries Reason were not of an higher Date than the first day of the last yere of the vj. hundred you would vtterly refuse it Well how so euer it be it seemeth now that it is but a deade victorie Or a Stale and that he which will checke M. Iewel must begin againe If Marianus Scotus accompt be true â–ª c. As on the other side if it be false then is he ouercummed by four pore yeres yet as he termeth theÌ„ But consider now Indifferent Reader whether this be manly Dealing or no To refuse the Authoritie that is at this present in the world To set light by the Practise and Iudgement of the Church for ix hundred yeres space To pare euery thing so precisely by the firste six hundred yeres that If it be but a daie longer it must be cut awaie And if it be a few yeres shorter it must be the lesse estemed And if it answer iustly with the yere it self it weigheth in no side What Reason hath M. Iewel or what Example and Scripture for him Is the Truthe of God bound to the first six hundred yeres And must it not passe that cumpasse which M. Iewel hath apointed vnto it Is God a God of six hundred yeres only and not of all time and all worldes Was the Holyghost promised to tary with vs til vj. C. yeres were come and gone and not to the end of the world The kingdome of Christ which should be euerlasting and his power which should not be takeÌ„ awai must it be interpreted now to haue theyr full terme out in vj. C. yeres only What Grace haue the first vj. C Or what curse of God haue these last .ix. C. yeres Now know you also when the first vj. C. ended Or what trust haue you in them which number the yeres vnto you Some Historiographers recken one way Other recken an other way What certaintie then can you haue of theÌ„ Again those writers whome you folow either do at this present liue Or he commended vnto you by them that now line And how dare you trust either those that nowe liue and write of thinges so long sens past Or those that a greate while sens are deade your selfe not then borne to liue with them and examine their doinges Consider also how many haue wryten within the space of these last nine huÌ„dred yeres how perfite in life how Excellent in knowledge how Painfull in studies how Worthy in their owne dayes How Famous with the Posteritie How mete witnesses in the cause of God and triall of a Pure and holy Religion Abbates Monkes Friers are in these new Gospelling dayes termes of great shame and Ignominie yet what sayeth and honest Protestant against S. Bernard Rupertus Thomas Aquinas Bonauenture Dionysius the Carthusian and other such Can M. Iewel finde any fault in theyr life by any Report of brute or Fame Or any Irreligiousnes in their bookes and wrytinges which are extant for hym to consider Let him say his worst Let him leaue poring in Gloses of no Authoritie to finde some mad thing or other against the wisedome of the Church And let him confer his leisure to Reading or Examining rather of these Witnesse according to the State he taketh vpon him whose sayinges he knoweth we esteeme as we ought to doe O sayeth he these were of late daies I graunt â–ª And not only that but also and you will that they were in euyll and corrupt daies But were they corrupted in them Did they not write against corrupt liuing Did they suffer new Preachers and Apostolikes to goe out of the Church or come against y e church by their euil Doctrine Or did they communicate with Pope Cardinals Bishops Abbots or any other of all the world in their liuing Seing they neither fâ—ared hatred nor curred Fauour why should not their Testimonie be receiued no other exception being brought against them but that they liued in so late daies or such A world All is Ungodly All is Unreasonable All is Uaineglorious to appeale to the times so long past As though that God at this present had not his Church in the world Or as though ye could well folow any other but such as you heare with our owne eares Or as though the good and Lerned men of these Later yeres departed this world hundred of yeres sens were not as nigh to the first six hundred yeres as ye are and as ready to folow the best waie as ye Or as though it were A Ioly mater and a compendious waie to the Gospell to contempne all Christendome that now is and holde with that Christendome that was almoste a thousand yeres sens not knowing yet what Christianitie meaneth Nor Daring to trust it if ye knew it were it not for the Authoritie which is at this present in Christendome the Greatnesse of which hath moued you to beleue what so euer you beleue vpon any good ground Here therfore M. Iewel defend your doinges And shew vs the cause wherefore you doe or should refuse the Testimonie of the last ix hundred yeres which are against you If it be not for Childeshnesse or Wantonesse or Unsensiblenesse that you will none of so many and so graue Witnesses yet except you alleage some honest cause and reason It will remayne I beleue that you doe it vpon a very blinde Stomake and
contention My questioâ—s are short and easy to be answered if you haue any Faith or Conscience at all As in Example Was there not a Church of God in the world when you were borne Did not the Greatnes Grauitie and Authoritie of Nations which were of it moue you to beleue Did the Inuisible and litle Congregation worke that effect in you If ye trusted the Catholike Church of your time in commending Christ vnto you and without her Commendatyon would not haue credited him can you with a safe conscieÌ„ce contemne the voice of the same Church And to colour your defection and Fleeing from it take holde fast of the first six hundred yeres only As though you could with all your witte iudge better what the Primitiue Church thought and beleued than the present Church which is of one Spirite wth the Primitiue c. But there is no Remedie vpon the first six hundred yeres M. Iewel ioyneth with vs And if any thing be longer than that measure he will none of it he hath sayed it ¶ How M. Iewel himselfe dothe vse the Testimonies of what so euer Age and wryter though he bind other to the first sixe hundred yeres only TO the first six hundred yeres cumpasse then we must be bound al against Reason and Conscience but what shall we doe when the standing in our right against the Aduersarie and the Refusing to encountre with him vpon his conditions shall be thought of some Iudges to be A Preiudice vnto our cause and A greate Argument that our hartes faile vs Dispute sayeth the Heretike wyth me vpon these questions whether the Publike Seruice in an vnknowen tongue Or Receiuing vnder one kinde Or Reseruing of the Sacrament in A Pix wyth A Canopie ouer it â–ª c. Was euer vsed in the Primitiue Church No Mary would I saie if it were to me only I will not Dispute with thee vpon theesâ— poyntes But if thy Hart and Learning serue thee make few wordes and Answer me from whence thou câ—mest Who sent thee What are their Names Where are their Sees What is their Succession What is their Authoritie In which pointes if thou satisfie me not only then in these few Articles which thou demaundest but in euery point and part of the Religion which thy Church aloweth I will be Faithfull and Obedient Dispute sayeth he againe vnto me on Munday come seuennight And before that Day cummeth he chaingeth his minde foure or fiue times with me First he will Dispute in Latine Then he will wryte his minde and speake nothing After that he wil haue the mater Reasoned in Englishe and wise men shal be Iudges And after that againe he will haue it done in the hearing of the people not by quicke Disputation but by Reading only the Argumentes out of a Booke If the Catholike Disagree in anye poynt and stand vpon it either stubburnesse either Mistrust of his Cause either some fault or other shal be layed vnto him And so were many greate and heighnous maters Obiected against S. Ambrose because he refused to haue the cause betwene himselfe and the Heretike Auxentius to be tried in the Consistorie of the Emperour before Secular Iudges And his Exception against the Place only and Audience was accompted an high and intolerable Treason In like maner You shall Dispute with me sayeth the Heretike and nothing shall serue you except it be in expresse Scripture If the Catholike refuse that Condition and allege an hundred Reasons and Authorities that we must beleâ—e the vnwriten veritie as wel as the writen And that the word and will of God is allwaies to be obeiâ—d whether it be deliuered vnto vs by Tradition or left vnto vs in Wryting Yet except he yeld at length all England shal ring of it That the Papistes will not be tried by the linely worde of God That they flee the light That they dare not commit their cause to the Scriptures To be short when M. Iewel now more Reasonably in deede than Some of his Masters or Felowes which will admit nothing but Scripture Yet heretically and stately inough proâ—oketh vs to ioine with him And chooseth his questions and excludeth all our Answers vnto them except they be taken iust out of the vâ— C. yeres after Christ although it be very vniustly required of him and A Catholike should neuer come into such bondage Or not alwaies condescend in these lesser pointes vnto A Protestant Yet if he striue long with him about it and stand in the Defence of the last nine hundred yeres alleaging many and them good causes wherefore the Testimonie and consent of so long time should be alowed the longer he striueth the worse shall he be esteemed for it and the ernest mainteining of euery Truth on his side shall goe in Print abrode for an Argument that in dede he hath no good right Be it so then The Catholike must let goe the vantage of ix C. yeres he must fight within that time and cumpasse that the Heretike prescribeth And although that naturally al men are more fauorable to them that are called in to the law than the suers and troblers of them and suffer the defendant whome worldly frindship cleane forsaketh to haue as much right as his cause will geaue him Yet let all thinges be forgoten which may commend the Catholikes and as M. Iewel hath appointed so let the first six hundred yeres only be considered and alowed But here now let me aske one Question As it not Reason like as our aduersarie prescribeth vnto vs the number and Terme of yeres out of which we must gather our Argumentes that so likewise he shuld not come against vs with any Testimony or Authority which were out of those apointed Limites and boundes of yeres If a Challenger shall say to the Partye whome he Prouoketh come let vs straite waies trie the mater betwene our selues in the plaine Fielde and bring thou thy Sword and Buckler as I will mine when they are agreed vpon the Time Place and kind of Weapon if the Challenger would against the others single sworde come with sword dager horse spere Dagge and what so euer defence or helpe he could get â—yside should he not be compted Awretched and Contentious and A glorious Iacke Bragger He that biddeth the combat seemeth to take himself for the better maÌ„ and to like his owne cause and quarell very wel how Ignominious then and Shamefull must it be vnto him not to fight vpon equall conditions with hys Aduersarie Reason you against me sayeth M. Iewel out of the first six hundred yeres only but I for all that will be at my libertie to vse any Testimonie out of the xv C. and odde yeres sens Christ. Which in very deede is as much to say as knele you here vpon one knee and Fight not out of this Circle which I make to you As for my selfe I will goe or run at my pleasure about you and take my vantage
where I can finde it sometimes within sometimes without the Circle sometimes staÌ„ding nigh sometimes coursing about the field Mary Sir if such Priuileges might be graunted to Warriers it were an easie mater to prolong the Battell and to winne the praise of much manlinesse by spurring cut hither and thither and no mater how For he taketh no care hereof how truly he alleage the Testimonies of these last nine hundred yeres Or how worthie and approued Authors they be whom he alleageth but without exception he taketh all that he findeth and from the highest to the lowest from the Text to the Glose and emong Gloses from the best to the worst of them he Taketh and Draweth and Heapeth against vs Al that may seeme to helpe his Assertions Tel vs therefore I pray you M. Iewel what Equitie or Conscience you folow Will you binde the Catholikes to the first six hundred yeres And wil your selfe argue out of cumpasse May not we vse the worthie Authoritie of Bonifacius because he was Bishop of Rome in the yere of our Lord 680 and will you admit the sayinges and doinges of Luther Zwinglius and Caluine all condemned Persons through the Catholike Church and liuing xv C yeres after Christ S. Bernard you say was A man of late yeres So was Dionisius the Carthusian So were others whom I haue rekened vp in the chapiter before And therefore by your accompt of lesse Authoritie And why then doe you allâ—age not only S. Bernard but Durand Gerson Alexander Lynwod Camotensis Hugo Cardinalis Eckius Aeneas Syluius Erasmus and other I report me to the very margine of your boke by that it will appeere whether you do not stuffe your boke with Canons Constitutions Gloses Histories Interpretations of scripture Testimonies of Fathers Opinions of Scholemen c. such as altogether you scrape out of these last nine C. yeres For which your so doing if you can bring any Reason or shew any Speciall Pryuilege graunted to you against the law of Nature that you might do against an other that which you would not haue done to your selfe either of this vnreasonable Fauor and Licence you must geaue some cause or els you must suffer vs to complaine of it that you dele not with vs Indifferently But it will be thought perchaunse of others that you alleage not y â— later Wryters of any time these nine C. yeres for the Estimation or Credite which you haue them in but only because your Aduersary maketh great Price of them Suppose it were so yet you doe him greate Wronge to put him to Answering of more Witnesses than he should doe by right And to fill your Replie with those mennes sayinges whose Authoritâ—es though he doe not contemne yet he would not haue them to possesse occupie y â— place which more Auncient and worthier Persons should haue And although we think as it becometh vs of s. Bernard s. BonaueÌ„ture S. Denyse c. Yet if you would needes haue vs in Reasoning with you not to passe the Boundes and Terme of vj. C. yeres you shoulde not though we alowed the Persons neuer so much bring any of A lower degree and later age against vs either to stand in the place which S. Hierome S. Ambrose S. Augustine or S. Chrysostome should occupie either to commend that place the better by their Presence which the Auncient Fathers of the Primitiue Church doe furnishe aboundantly by themselues and which also they only should furnishe by your appointement And further I say that if you will not suffer me to take any vantage against you by the testimony of any good Man or wryter of the nine hundred yeres last past it is no equalitie that whther I will or no you should make me to Answer the sayinges which you bring against me out of those yeres whiche you passe not vpon And whereas it shall doe me no good though I proue that S. Bernard for Example in that place which you wil alleage doth not only not hinder but allso further my cause to what purpose should I spend anyetime at all in hearing or examining hys wordes which although I declare to make for me may not be lawfully vsed of me And therefore notwithstanding you iudge truly of vs herein and better of vs than of your self that we the Catholikes doe not refuse the Authoritie of later Fathers and Doctours whom the Church yet neuer condemned or despised Yet this our credite which we haue them in must not serue you for any cause or excuse why ye should bring them furth against vs except we may doe the like against you For as you haue appealed to the first vj. C. yeres thereby to let vs of our Libertie so we doe require you also not to passe that nuÌ„ber or cumpasse of those yeres thereby to cut away your superfluitie And in thus doing we are not weary of the later Doctours of Christendome nor afraid of their Iudgments but we are offended with your vainglorious and very wretched behauioure which will not keepe the law yourselfe that you prescribe vnto other Ther is I graunt A kind of ArgumeÌ„t ad hominem non ad rem to the man not to the mater As to some of our Countrie men at this present and them of the most Perfite and exquisite Trade in folowing of the Gospel if A Catholike doe saye that Father Caluine himself whose Iudgment is much praised in the Congregation was of this mind and was also Zelous in it that they did very ill which gaâ—e to king Harry the viij that he should be head of the Church this argument so taken of his Authoritie that was a Proude and Folishe And Lousie Heretike although it be nothing worth in deede and in that respect not to be vsed of A Catholike Yet to him that accompteth of Caluine as if he had bene one of y e lights of the World y â— Catholike may right wel vse it driue him by force of the Consequence either to deny Caluines Authority which he wil not Or y â— kings supremacy which he dareth not So y â— against him that is addicted to any one Opinion of his own or of other whoÌ„ he buildeth vpon to bring an Argument grounded vpoÌ„ his own Opinion iudgment thereby to make him forsake his own opinion or kepe stil in his memory the Contradiction which inwardly pincheth him It is A kind of Reasoning good and profitable And in this respect if any Catholike were so blinde singular as to set more by the Glose vpon VnaÌ„ SanctaÌ„ Extr. de Maior Obed â–ª than the Commentaries of S. Hierome and S. Chrisostome Or by Durand Gerson Lynwod c. than any of the most Auncient Fathers M. Iewel then might be suffered to argue ad hominem that is to alleage Gloses Scholemen and later Doctours to him that hath A speciall fansie vnto those more than any of the Primitiue Church But now se y â— Inequality
ods For neither D. Harâ—nor his Inferiors are so ignoraÌ„t of y â— seÌ„se strength of this word Catholike y â— they shuld be addicted to any one two or thre mens priuate sayings of what degree or time so euer they haue ben without thâ— consent or warrant of the Church neither shuld M. Iewel alleage vnto them any Testimony of the last nine hundred yeres himself referring the triall of the the whole mater to the first vj. C. only And hauing such Aduersaries as are very well content to be ordered by the sentence and Iudgment of that first age and that Primitiue Church Yet go to for a while let M. Iewel be suffered And let it be his excuse that he hath argued alwaies ad hominem to the man when he hath vsed the Testimonies of later times thereby to impugne D. Harding Let him say I meane that he hath recited in his Replye Durand Gerson Biel Denyse Hugo Cardinall Thomas Duns c. not because himself aloweth them but because they are estemed of y â— party against whoÌ„ he wryteth But is this true And hath not he vsed their Testimonies in respect also of hys owne opinion confirmed himself in it because of their Testimonies When he reasoneth Substantially and Directly and Plainly to his Purpose and ad rem to the mater and out of his owne Principles as it were and Authorities doth he not alleage the forsayde Doctours although they were all the sort of them farre vnder the first six hundred yeres to whiche onely he would haue the Decision of the controuersies referred Whether this be so or no let Examples try it M. Iewel is of the Opinion that no Christian Churches wer built in the Apostles tyme And muche lesse then Aulters if his Logicke be good For may wee thinke sayth he that Aulters were built before the Churche Of whiche Lye we shall speake in an other place But to my purpose It foloweth in him Neyther afterward when Aulters were first vsed and so named were they straite waye built of Stone as Durandus and such others saie they must needes be and that Quia petra erat Christus Because Christ vvas the Stone Whereof then were they built according to your Opinion And what Cause or Authoritie haue you for it It foloweth For Gerson saith that Siluester Bisshop of Rome first caused Stone Aultars to be made c. Is Gerson then of Authoritie with you And a man of so late yeares and little Fame and Estimation in comparison of many Fathers and Doctours of the ix C. yeares last past all which you refuse is hee nowe a witnesse for yourâ— Here it is plaine that you bring in this late writer to serue directly your owne Opinion and that he standeth you in suche steede that without him you proue not that whiche you saide You depende not therefore vppon your Aduersaries allowing of Gerson as who shoulde saye if he admit the Testimonie of him then doe I confirme my Assertion and if he doe not yet haue I other Authorities to proue my sayinges true but you doe so absolutely and proprely for your owne Opinion vse him that without him you leaue your matters vnproued But let vs see an other Example It is required of M. Iewell that forasmuche as the Catholikes coulde neuer yet finde that the Publike Seruice in the Primitiue Churche was in any other than Greeke or Latine and hee yet is sure of the Contrarye that it was euery where in a tongue knowen to the Uulgare People he shew therefore his Profes and Authorities suche by all likelyhode as himselfe is perswaded withall before he woulde haue other to allowe them Marke then what hee sayth And to auoyde multitude of woordes the case beeing plaine Eckius sayth the Indians had their Seruice in the Indian tongue Durandus saith The Iewes that were Christened had their Seruice in the Hebrew tongue Nycolas Lyra and Thomas de Aquine saye The Common Seruice in the Primitiue Churche was in the Common vulgare tongue And in the next leafe folowing he aleageth Aeneas Syluius and an Extrauagant de Officio Iudicis Ordinarij and Iohn Billet in Summa de Diuinis officijs But what are all these Were they not writers of very late Yeares Were they not Popisshe Doctours or Popysshe Proctours not woorthe the naming by M. Iewels Accompt and much lesse worth the Crediting Why theÌ„ doth he alleage them Will he saye he condescended herein to D. Hardinges Infirmitie And that he vseth his owne Doctours for the better contentation of his mind No verely he must not say so For he was required to bring his owne groundes and witnesses and not such as are alowed only per accidens that is because it so happeneth that an other maÌ„ liketh them He was content allso to shew his profes and to yeld to the foresaid Request both for the goodnesse and pregnancie of the cause and also specially Good Christian Reader sayeth he for the better Contentation of thy mind If the cause then be good and pregnaÌ„t why vse you so ill and baren Testimonies as all theirs are if your accompt be true which come furth after the first six hundred yeres And if you seeke after the Contentation of your Readers mind you signifie thereby that the Authorities which you alleage are worthy and alowable Not because Doctor Harding will make no Exception perchaunce against them but because yourselfe like them and esteeme them Otherwise what Contentation of the Readers mind call you this to Reason vpon their Authorities whom yourself would haue to be contemned Or to establish any opinion vpoÌ„ such groundes vpon which you can build nothing except vnto him which holdeth them for sure and good Of which sort of men you make not I trust euery your good Christian Reader to be Especially many of them by your oft Appealing to the first six hundred yeres being occasioned to set litle by anye Testimonie of lower time and degree Thus we see againe that M. Iewel hath vsed the late wryters Testimonie Eckius Durand Thomas Aquinas and Iohn Billet not because of D. Hardinges opinion or regard of them which how greate or litle it is he dothe not know but because of his owne liking of them Neither doth he peeke as it were an occasion to vse them out of his Aduersaries estimation of them but whether D. Harding aloweth them or no M. Iewell flatly vseth them nor is ashamed of the latenes of them A thing at other times so materiall with hym that on paine of forfaiting all a mans labour none must be brought in for witnesses but suche as are within little a thowsand yeare olde See one place more and with that we shall ende this Chapiter It is a question betweene the Catholikes and the Heretikes Whether the woordes of Christe in the sixt of S. Iohn are to be vnderstanded onely of the spirituall eating of his body Or of the Spirituall and
Sacramentall bothe The firste is the newe Maisters the seconde is the Olde Fathers To proue the firste that the wordes of our Sauiour in that Chapiter are taken and meant of spirituall eating onely Thus sayth Maister Iewell For to leaue S. Augustine Origine and others of that age Nicolas Lyra a man of later yeres saith The said words of Christ must needes be taken Spiritually and none otherwise Lykewise one Michael Vaehe one of late yeares a man of M. Hardings owne syde touching the same matter wryteth thus against Luther This saith he is a weake reason for the woordes that be spoken of Spirituall eating â–ª He Applieth to the Sacramentall eating Here may M. Harding see besydes S. Augustine Origine and other olde Catholike Fathers whose Woordes I haue not aleaged what men he hathe called Newe Maisters Nicolas Lyra was an Englisshe man and liued two hundred yeares before Luther Michaell Vaehe was of late yeares and wrote namelye against Luther Heere I trowe it is perceaued that M. Iewell vseth late writers Testimonies in defence of his syde The question is whether the sixt of S. Iohn be vnderstanded of Spirituall eatinge onely or no. If it be let vs set your Authorities M. Iewell and reasons The new masters as D. Hard. tearmeth them expound it so Thei are not all new masters say you that haue so takeÌ„ thâ— How proue you that For Nicolas Lyra You Aunswere saith it â–ª and one Michael Vaehe one of late yeares They saye it not that it is to be vnderstanded onely of Spirituall eating but of Spirituall eating without ONELY Suppose yet they saide it what were that to purge the new Maisters of the fault of Singularitie or to perswade your Reader that it must be so taken I doe not disprayse neither Nicolas Lyra neither Michaell Uehe but I can not but mislike it greatly in you to aleage their Names in your defense whose Authorities are neyther Excellent nor Yeares Auncient Especially whereas you would seeme to haue S. Augustine Origine and others of that age to stande with you in this matter But you leaue them and come to Nicolas Lyra. What doe you M. Iewel Is there any man in all the Catholike Churche whiche will giue you leaue to answere him rather by Nicolas Lyra then S. Augustine And dothe it become your Manheade and Corage whiche is so great that you will haue Controuersies examined by no later writers then those of the first six hundred yeares thus to leaue S. Augustine whose Authoritye is worthelye regarded of all wise men and cleane to Nicolas Lyra whose testimony any man except it be of contempt may lawfully let alone with out vsing or alowing of it You commend hym to vs in two poyntes He was you saye An English man and liued two hundred yeres before Luther I haue reade the contrarye that he was a Iew borne at Liere neuerthelesse if you for Countrye sake as borne perchaunce in the old or new Iury in LondoÌ„ or for Age sake as liuing two hundred yeres before Luther doe thynke that he is a worthy witnesse to Englishe men of this age I will not reproue your kindnesse of hart towardes your Countrymen nor affection to the time later by seuen hundred yeres than the Primityue church vnto which you apeale so precisely But this who can abyde To consider M. Iuell so great a Contemner of later Dyuines and Scholemen to leaue S. Augustine Origen and others and to defend hys felowes by Nycolas Lyra and Michaell Vaehe And not onely that but to crake as it were that S. Augustin is also with him and yet not so muche as to name the Place where it might bee sought and founde For consider his wordes Here maye M. Hardinge see besydes S. Augustine Origene and other olde Catholike Fathers whose wordes I haue not allegaed what men he hath called New Maisters In deede hee may see that you haâ—e brought furth Nycolas Lyra and one Michael Vaehe but y â— he may se them bysydes S. Augustine Origene and other Olde Catholike Fathers Howe is it possible For your selfe confesse that you haue not alleaged their wordes And how then shoulde he see them If D. Harding doe no more but quote onely the Places of the Doctours in whiche his sayengs be verefied And leaue the writing out of their whole Sentences all this you wil say is but a Camissado these be but visardes They be no faces They are brought in like Mummers for a shew and say nothing And what pretie CouÌ„terfeiting may we call this to alleage A later writers saying fully and not so much as quote the place of the olde Fathers And yet to make an Oâ—tentation with here may M. Harding see bysides S. Augustine Origen and other old Catholike Fathers whose wordes I haue not alleged what men he hath called new masters Uerely this is biside all reason to tel me that bysides S. Augustine c. I may See what Nycolas Lyra testifieth wher no one Sentence or Halfe sentence of S. Augustines is to be Seen Heard or Understanded in the place on which I am bid to looke But I haue not alleged their wordes sayeth M. Iewel And why did you not I pray you Sir Were you in such hast to come to Nycolas Lyra and Michael Vaehe that you could not cary with S. Augustin Origene and other old Catholike Fathers Is it your maner of writing to spare the Alleging of old Fathers Or was their word not worth the hearing Or must we needes beleue your Assertion without further euidence The Truthe is neither Saint Augustine nor Origen nor any other old Catholike Fathers did precisely say that the sixth of S. Ihon must be vnderstanded only of the Spiritual eating of Christes fleshe And you although you could not haue their voyces yet you were so bold as to vse their Names And pretending as thoughe it were easie to see that they did testifie for you so you leaue them quite and cleane and bring in Nycolas Lyra an Englisheman and Michael Uaehe of late yeres to speake somewhat for you Consider now Indifferent Reader whether M. Iewel vseth the later Wryters as Necessary Witnesses in his owne cause or no And whether he bringeth them in as Men whom D. Harding is well content withall Or as Persons without whom his sayinges could haue no Probalitie at all For if he had alleged first S. Augustine Origen and other old Catholike Fathers and afterwardes had rehersed the Opinions and Iudgmentes of later writers he might haue ben thought to haue done it for A Surplussage and to haue sought thereby to perswade rather his Aduersarie than to Confirme his owne Assertion But on the other side now to leaue S. Augustine Origen and other Fathers and to stay only vpon Lyra and Uaehe what other thing is it than to Protest that by their Testimonies his cause is Sufficientlye proued And to take vantage of their sayinges which liued
can begin the World a freshe And the foundation of six hundred yeres standing on sure grounde let him pull downe all that hath beene builded and shew vs some fyne peâ—ce of worke of his owne suche I trowe as shall in all Proportion agree w t the Primitiue Churche and ryse in a moste goodly Ordre of euery Hâ—ndred yeare since one aboue an other vntill he come vnto this very time in whiche he liueth and geue men to see moste plainly and euidently that his Churche now is of the same makinge without any Imperfection Or gaping of the worke that may be espied Let him I say make an Uniforme and Apte worke For if he will beginne at the ende of the six Hundred yeares and immediately ioyne thereto the state of His Congregation at this Present either it will be a Miraculous worke to see foundacions with meâ—ely high wals and a Roufe a great waye from them without any Stone Timber Staye or Workemanshippe betweene Either will it be a very Eâ—ilfauoured matter to see one peece hanging so farre from the other as Germans of Heretikes lippes doe hange togeather If therefore your building be Sure and True Ioine yeres to yeres and without all gappes or holes make the whole Perfite Close and One. But ye are as wel able to doe it and knit or ioine your Church to the Primitiue as ye are to builde vp againe Al the Abbeies in England Or proue vnto vs that the Stones of them which lie now broken in high waies or were caried out of the waie to building of Gentelmens places doe answer rightly in the forme which they haue at this present to the Foundations and Pillers remainyng yet vnto some Religious houses from whence they haue ben taken Especially this Principle of your Artificioâ—snes standing that the Testimonie of these last nine hundred yeres is not to be Alleaged or Alowed Which being so Uniust and Unreasonable as I haue declared Either let M. Iewel vtterly put out of his Replye what so euer he hath gathered and scraped out of Canons Gloses Scholemen Heretikes Historiographers and other Wryters whatsoeuer of later yeres And from hensefurth fill no more Papers with such kind of stuffe Either els let him be ashamed to bind vs to the first six hundred only himselfe not able to Conteine himselfe Or Maintaine hys cause within that cumpasse But I know I aske his losse For If he may not peeke out of all times such Signes of Defence for his cause as maâ—â— seeme to serue for it he will be quickly vndone in the best Limme he hath And without all doubt will be â—ongtied As on the other side If he will set vs haue right and suffer vs to proue our cause by godly and Lerned witnesses of what so euer Age they be so that he can make no lawfull Exception against them then is he vtterly vndone in his owne Conscience knowing that the Catholike Church doth expressely and by name condemne his Masters Heresies So that it is not otherwise likely but he will haue vs to stand fast bound to the first six hundred yeres and will reserue vnto himselfe that special Priuilege to Take and Make his vantage Where and When so euer he may 1 That M. Iewel refuseth to â—e tried by the Sentence or Testimony of the first six hundred yeres to which only he appealeth WHat Remedie then If M. Iewel shall prouoke manfully and wretchedly apoint vs a bouÌ„d which we may not go beyoÌ„d in coÌ„ming against him If he may vse xv C. yeres and odd and we not vi C. and one day ouer If he shal fetch nede lesse vagaries and we be restrained of our lawfull libertie what Remaineth â–ª Uerelye to haue pacience vntill it shall please Almighty God either to conuerâ—e his heart to repentaunce either to moue the minds of other to hauâ— a better consideration of these Matters whiche pertaine to their Saluation either to come him selfe in Iudgemente and make an ende of all Proceedings Yet this in the meane time thou maist consider indifferent Reader that we are two manner of wayes abused by M. Iewell First that ye wil prescribe vnto vs from whence we shall take our Argumentes against him Secondly that himselfe will not be content with those Condicions whiche he prescribeth vnto vs. But is this all the wrong that Maister Iewell doth vnto Us No it is nâ—t all For now I shall declare vnto thee how Himselfe will not admitte the Witnesses of the very first six hundred yeares vnto whiche he straightly byndeth vs. And what can bee more vnreasonable For in seperating the last nine Hundred from the first six and in alowing the Firste and condemning the Latter what dothe he but note vnto vs the Iâ—corruption and Puritie of Faith in those daies and not warrant the Testimonies to be good if it be taken out of the first six hundred yeres after Christ. Of the first he saieth If ani learned maÌ„ c be able to bring any one Sufficient Sentence c. that the thinges vpon which he Chalengeth vs were vsed or alowed in the Primitiue Churche for the space of six hundred yeres after Christ I am content to yeld and subscribe Of the Later yeres he saieth S. Bernard is a Doctour but of late yeres therefore his Authoritie must weigh the Lighter If therefore there be no Excellencie or Prerogatiue in the first six hundred why diuided he them so Precisely and Diligently from the later nine And If there be so Great as he seemeth to make why will not he himselfe stand vnto the Iudgment of that Primitiue Churche And that first age so chast and vndefiled Choose one of these two M. Iewel which you will And let vs see an Example and token either of your wisdome and Prudencie in Separating for some iust cause the Beginninges of the One and whole Summe of xv C. yeres from the latter endes of it either of your Iustice and Indifferencie in regarding the witnesses of the First six hundred yeres which you require to be exactly folowed of others For as you say Lyra and Teutonicus liued at the least Thirtene C. yeares after Christ Therefore their Authoritie must needes seeme the lesse Whye saye ye not also S. Leo and S. Gregorie liued fiue hundred yeares after Christe Therefore their Authoritie must nedes seme the lesse Or why put you A Difference betwene the Former and the later yeres of the xv C. in which Christ hath ruled his church And if your wisedome saw good causes wherefore you should sort y â— yeres which haue passed sence Christes Incarnation after a rare maner cul out as it were the best from the worst with what Conscience then and Equitie can you refuse to be ordered by the Testimonie of the better sort of them For if against the later nine hundred yeres which you take from vs this Exception of yours is inough to discredite them that they were Late It foloweth consequently that to the
Gheasse as M. Harding doeth why may he not thus Imagine with hymselfe If this Woman would thus dissemble in a Case so daungerous what needed her to take the Bread at her Maides handes And specially at that Time in that Place And in the sight of the whole people Or how could she so openly Receiue it without Suspition Or why might she not haue brought it in A napkin secreetly aboute herself The burthen then was not greate Her faining and hipocrisie had ben the easier Thus sayeth M. Iewel Why maye not A man Imagine with himselfe if he list But wil ye know why not I will tell you No man ought to make such A Glose as shall marre the Texte Nor Imagine that whiche goeth Directlye againste the Literall Sense of an Historye For the Historye the credite whereof you maie not disgrace you sayed before maketh expresse mention of breade taken at her Maides handes And of the same receyued by the Maestres in the open Church And of her faining and Hypocrisy how it was confounded And this now is done and past aboue A thousand yeres sens And how it was done it remaineth in wryting But you neuerthelesse come in with your Listing and Imagining Not to find out that by probable Conicâ—tures which lieth hid in the Storie but by cleane Contrarie and froward Fancye destroying the very Literall state and Description thereof And to this effect as thoughe that the Sleight of a womans wit were litle worth you adde of your owne inuention A further fetch Which perchaunse the woman would haue folowed if she had knowen it in tyme but now after all is done to aske what neede she had to take the Breade at her maides handes Or to wonder how she could so openly Receiue it without Suspition Or to teache her that she might haue brought it in a napkin Or to perswade with her that the burthen was not greate as thoughe the gentelwoman had bene so tender and fine y â— she could not haue caried y â— weight of A Singing cake more then her Ordinarie Or to Conclude with her that her Faining woulde be the Easyer thus I saie when all is past remedie to feede your owne Fancie or fill your Readers eares with so long and so vaine A tale It is to simple for any womans wit For Imagine you as much as ye lift that she neded not to take the bread at her maides handes The Storie so plainely testifying that she toke it what must folow No other thing surely but that the Storie is vnlikely And so of euery other of the Circumstancies which your man that hath A list to Imagine gathereth of that which hymselfe thinketh meete to haue ben done what other thing foloweth but that the Storie which reporteth the Coutrary to haue ben done is very vnlikely and Incredible Such a Fauorer you be of Antiquitie and promising at the beginning of your Answer not to disgrace the credite of this Storie you fall afterwarde into such A path of your accustomed Rhetorike that by A Figure of listing and Imagining and by certaine howe 's and whyes ye destroye A plaine fact and confessed Who maye trust you in Obscure or Long maters which is an Euident and Short historie doe so boldly argue against it No wonder if you perswade your Felowes or folowers to Discredite Clemens Abdias Hippolitus Martialis Athanasius and all the whole Boke of Degrees and Decretals which haue the Grace and Feate to let an Historie stand for true and yet so rightly to Gheasse at it that If the gesse be True the historie must be False The Historie saith the Gentelwoman toke the Breade at her maides hand M. Iewels or his Gheasse that by hys graunt lifteth is What neede she how could she without Suspition Why might she not haue brought it in a napkin c. Now whether D. Hardinges Gheasse as M. Iewel termeth it concerning the Receauing in this place vnder one kind only be as vnhable to stand wyth the historie as the Imaginations which M. Iewel hath here rekened vp for greater than the Sleight of a womans wit did atteine vnto let the Indifferent Reader conferre and iudge My proper intent and purpose was to shew by this Example how M. Iewel can speake so fauorablie of the Auncient Histories of the first vj. C. yeres as though he would not Discredite them And yet how in deede he practiseth with suche Libertie or Licentiousnesse rather against them as thoughe what him listeth to Imagine might be better alowed and liked than the fact it selfe which the Historye wytnesseth But let vs trie M. Iewels fidelity in an other Example What say you to the Liturgie of S. Iames I trust you will not make exception against it that it was found very lately in the I le of Can die Or sought out and found and set abroade of very late yeres Or that it is a very little boke of smal price lateli set abrode in print about vij yeres past which are so greate maters in your Iudgment that for these causes you will repell an Authoritye I trust that you haue no such thing to laye against S. Iames Masse For by the testimonye of an auncient Councel we vnderstand that S. Iames wrote a Liturgie or forme of a Masse What saye you then vnto it It may be doubted of you say And why so For S. Iames Liturgie hathe a speciall praier for them that liue in Monasteries And yet it was very rathe to haue Monasteries built in al S. Iames time You meane I thinke y â— there were no suche Monasteries then built as of late haue ben pulled downe in EnglaÌ„d large fair CoÌ„modious places for holy purposes w t Church Cloister Capiter house Refectory Dormitorie Infirmatorie bisides Reuenues laÌ„des for euer left ther by Deuout Noble and worthy Men women to that end that God might be serued of men and women accordingly the religious hauing all things prouided vnto their haÌ„ds might serue him quietli But what theÌ„ The forme accidentes of an house do not make a Monastery no more then y â— maner of aparel doth make a Monke And although in the Apostles time no suche peace or glory was in the church y â— by great buildings or teÌ„poralties it was known estemed in y â— world yet without all doubt the Ordres and Rules emong some Christians of that time so rathe as you call it were so religious and well appointed that S. Iames might well praye for suche as liued in a singular manner and fasshion of a Monasticall and Spirituall life I will not trouble you with many witnesses in a mater so plaine and euident I referre you to Eusebius and He wil direct you to Philo Iudeus which liued in the time of the Apostles and wrote suche things as himselfe knewe to be pâ—actized of Christians before the name of Christians was well knowen abroade First he testifieth of them that they renounced all their goods
Victor that wrote the story of the Vandales he is neither Scripture For Scripture he was not alleaged And this also is against sincere and honest dealing to promise or rather protest that you would be tried by any Doctor Father Councel or Example of the Primitiue Churche and now so desperately to come in with this exceptioÌ„ that Uictor is no Scripture It foloweth Nor Councel Remember your selfe M. Iewel There are emong your Fauorers some discrete Sadde and Iust men Whome your Inuention in this place wil litle please And your much seeking to extenuate Uictors Authoritie wil be an Argument vnto them that you fall to Copie of wordes and shiftes of Rhetorike meete for Childerne when Copie of Sense â–ª and certaintie of good Answer doth not serue your greate Stomacke You saied wel once that one good sentence were Proufe sufficient and are you so much chainged so sodainely that you dare set light by an Auncient and graue wytnesse because he is no Councel You neede surely some good counsel least by extreme folowing with al your wit the defense of your mad ChalleÌ„ge you chauÌ„ce to fall bysides your wittes and haue no sense at al of your doinges It foloweth Nor Doctour Now define you then A Doctour For in deede whome you wil alowe to beare that name I can not tel And such Libertie you haue takeÌ„ now vnto your self of binding vs to your meaning that if you wil vnderstand by a Doctour none other but either S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Augustine or S. Gregorie which are called the foure Doctours of the Church Or some such as hath been solemly Created and made Doctour in some Uniuersitie we must be contenâ— with your sense and let you haue your owne minde and meaning But if you wil be ordered by reason you wil not deny I suppose that Uictor might wel be A Doctour which being a Bishop of no smal Citie in Aphrica had by al likelyhoode the knowledge of Scriptures and grace of expounding them and diligence in executing his office Except that M. Iewel wil be so Iniurious to the first six hundred yeares after Christ in which Uictor liued that he wil Iudge any one to haue ben made Bishoppe in those daies which was vnworthy to be a Doctour Againe if he were no Doctour was he therfore no Father And your self promising to admit any sufficient testimonie of any Father how wisely make ye now an Exception against Uictor â–ª because he was no Doctor It foloweth Nor writeth the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Church O worthy Exception Doth S. Augustine in his bookes of Confession write the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Church Nothing lesse For alâ—ogether they are compiled of his owne Actes Lyfe Chaunces Cogitations and Interrogations But what then Might not one for al this bring a good testimonie out of those bokes for prouâ—e of any mater that is in controuersie And when the Heretike denieth prayers for the Dead should not the example of S. Augustine whose prayer for his Mothers soule is extant in his Confessions quite and cleane sâ—oppe his Procedinges and make his very Impudencie ashamed What new found reason then is this of M. Iewels to contemne an AuncieÌ„t writer if he write not of those Maters and write also in such Order of them as he requireth When we alleage Clemens de Constitutionibus Apostolicis S. Denyse de Coelesti Ecclesiastica Hierarchia S. Iames Liturgie S. Chrysostomes Liturgie Sozomenus Nicephorus Or â–ª the Decrees and Decretales straitwaies you either deny them either suspect them either wil fyle them better before you beleue them Yet there are not in whom you may see more expressely the printes and the formes of the order or practise of the Primitiue Church For where shal one better finde what the Religion was in euery Age than in the Histories of those times and in Decrees Answeres and forme of publike Seruice that in euery of them was vsed You therefore which so litle set by those writers by whom we may vnderstand most plainly what the particulars were of the cause and state of our Religion in the Primitiue Churche now when Uictor is brought against you sodainly you be so chaunged as though it might be an exception against a witnes that he writeth not the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Church And yet this Exception of yours commeth not so luckely against Uictor Which although he take not into his storie the Actes of the Apostles or the succession of Bishoppes after them or al the persecutions throughout Christendome or the Martyrs of al Countries Or the perfection and rule of those holy Monks â—hat liued in wildernesses Or the Decrees of al Councels Or euery other such mater as might be spoken of by a General Historiographer yet what state the Church was in vnder the Uandales he describeth sufficiently And by his telling this much we vnderstande of the Order and Practise yf not of the Primitiue Church yet of that Church which was within the six hundred yeres after Christe the which time you haue allowed vs that in a mater concerning Faith and in a Councel to be gathered it was thought mâ—ete then to make other Bishoppes besydes them of Aphrica priuy thereof and especially to haue the presence of the Bishoppes of Rome because The Church of Rome is head of al churches Which Euidence because it is so plaine against you therefore hauing nothing to said reasonably against the sentence Yoâ— hâ—â—e sâ—retched your wittes to findâ—â—xâ—eptions against the Reporter oâ— it And you saiâ— farther against him Nor is it wel knowen either of what credite he was or when he liued Concerning his Credite he was Bishoppe of Utiâ—a and by likelyhoode therfore of good Estimation emong the Catholiques and A Man worthy to be heleâ—ed For in al kindes and Contrarietiâ—s of Religion such as are high Priestes Bishops or Superintendents it seemeth that they are of the better sort of the Famiâ—ie Churche or Cougregation out of which they are taken do doe that Office And further whose bookes were compâ—ed then worthy the copieng out and were so kept then that they remaine yet vnto vs And are so accepted at this present that they be translated into French His credite needeth not to be mistrusted or called without cause into question He wrote also vnto Hunericus King of Uandales an accoÌ„pt of his faith being driuen thereto by the CoÌ„maundement of y â— King By which you may perceiue that great accoÌ„pt was made of him Concerning then his age he liued not long after the time of S. Augustine farre within the First six hundred yeares out of which any Testimonie is sufficient against you For when the Uandales were in Aphrica and were busy in furthering the Procedinges of the Arrians then liued Uictor as may appeere by his Answer to Hunericus by diuerse places of his historie in which he speaketh of him selfe as one present at y â— doing
somuch vsed in the primitiue Church The Church sence that tyme hath chaunged the maner of kissing and kepte the signification whiche was in it by geauing of the pax or peace But this peace say you was not a litle table of syluer or somwhat els as hath bene vsed yea and is still vsed in the Churche of Rome but a very cosse in deede in token of perfit peace and vnitie in faith and religion So Iustinus Martyr saieth speaking of the tyme of the holy Mysteries we salute one an other with a cosse So likewyse Chrysostome and others True it is M. Iewel and knowing so much of the practise in the Primitiue Church why doe ye not vse this so Auncient and holy a Ceremonie If you will not haue the Pax of syluer either for sparinge of charges Or feare of Commissioners vpon Church goodes Or in despite of the Church of Rome vse then in your mysteries a very cosse in deede according to the Paterne of the Primitiue Church And iâ— neither old nor newe Ceremonies can please you why crake you in contemning the Later that yet you regarde stil the Auncient and Approued Orders Or with what face doe you allege these approued Fathers testimonies by whose sayings you wil not be ruled M. Iewel is alwaies â—â—sie iâ— proâ—ing that the people in the Primitiue Churche dyd Communicate with the Priest As though the concluding of that were a cleane ouerthrowe to the Catholike Religion yet no Catholike did euer deâ—se it and aâ— this tyme also when Charitie is 〈…〉 yet doe the people often in the yere 〈◊〉 with the Priest Now by occasâ—on of proâ—ing this which I must againe saie no man denieth he saieth in diuerse places of his Replie The Deacons receiue the Communion aftervvard the Mysteries be caried vnto a place vvhere the people must Communicate It is lawful only for the Priestes of the Church to enter into the place vvhere the Aultare standeth and there to Communicate Let the Priestes and Deacons Communicate before the aultare the Clerkes in the quiere and the peoâ—le vvithout the quiere Howe like you these dstinctions of Places and Persâ—ns M. Iewel Yea rather why lyke you them not Haue not yoâ—â—ulled downe Chauncell Taken away partitions made the pauement thoroughout leuell Set the Communion table in the myddle Set formes for the Laitie to sit about it And haue not your selfe geauen strange orders as it were to al the people noting it by your owne wit as appâ—ereth out of Fabian the Pope that men and women made the sacrifice of the aultare and of bread and wine and therefore after the order of Melchisedech But if the people could not so much as come nigh the Aultare where the Priest stode or receyâ—e at the most in the quier how far of were they at those daies from y â— irreuereÌ„cie y â— now is vsed And how far wide are you froÌ„ y â— towardâ—es is reforme al things by the paterne of the primitiue Church Yet are you not afraied nor Ashamed to allege those Councels and Authorities which condemne your â—rocedinges vtterly S. Basile saieth M. Iewel thinking still all thinges to helpe hym that proue a coÌ„munitating of moe together reporteth an ecclesiastical decree or CanoÌ„ that at the receiuing of the holy Communion which he calleth Mysticum pasca ther ought to be twelue persons at the least and neuer vnder And you to proue your selues folowers of Antiquitie and Restorers of ecclesiastical Canons haue decreed that three shall make vp a Communion and for A neede the Prieste and the sicke person alone Si haec vasa c. If the mater be so daungerous to put these sanctified vessels vnto Priuate vses wherein is conteined not the very body of Christ but the mysterie or Sacrament of Christes body c. You iudge I perceiue the Author of that booke to be S. Chrysostome and this place to be true and godly Therefore â–ª that you maie consider it the better and by your commendacion other Protestantes I wil englishe the whole sentence vnto them The Author of that booke whosoeuer he were persuading with the people to vse wel their tongue least vncleane spirites doe enter thereby into their bodies If it be synne and daunger saieth he to put haloued vessels vnto priuate vses as Balthasar teacheth vs vvhich because he dranke in halovved cuppes vvas put byside his kingdome and his life If then it be so daungerous a mater to put these sanctified vessels vnto priuate vses in vvhich the true bodie of Christ is not but the mysterie of his bodie is conteined hovv much more behoueth it vs concerning the vessels of our bodie vhich God hath prepared for himselfe to dvvel in not to geaue the deuil place to doe in them vvhat he vvil A stronge argument surely and persuasible For if deade metal which by it selfe is not apte to receiue holinesse be had yet in Reuerence because of the speciall vse which it serueth for in the temple of God how should not our bodies the lyuely vessels of our reasonable Soules be kepte still pure and Inuiolâ—â—ed If for the vessels which Balthasar â—â—phaned which serued in the Figurâ—â— of the old law which had not y â— very body of Christ in them â–ª but A signe and Mysterie only thereof If for these God plagueth and striketh how shal they escape which receiue into their bodies the very true Body of Christ and haue God corporally dwelling in them through the Mysterie of his Incarnation and vertue of his Consecration And yet dare turne themselues vnto prophane vncleane vses This is the true sense of that place But when begyn you M. Iewel to tell openly the daunger which they incurre before god though y â— world alow it which Either after vow made of Chastitie haue turned them selues first out of their Monasteries and shortly after haue ouerturned themselues into Incestuous Carâ—alitie Either spoiling the Churches of God of the halowed and consecrated vessels haue conuerted them into prophane vses and drinke in Chalices at their Tables No doubt by the example of Balthasar but that they are in sore daunger which serue themselues anâ— their priuate Affections with the 〈◊〉 and proper vessels appointed for God And if it be so in corruptible and base maters are not the polluted weddinges of Nonâ—es Monkes harlottes and Renegates much more accursed and execrable But when wil you protest this much M. Iewel And if you like not this consequence why refuse yoâ— your owne witnesse This place also that foloweth is made to serue for prouâ—e that there were that Communicated with the Priest They that haue fallen into Heresie and do penance for the same vvhen the Nouices that be not yet Christened be commaunded to depart out of the Church let them depart also â–ª Ergo they that remained did Communicate togeather Wel to let go y â—
to haue that bâ—ougâ—t oâ—t of any Olde Catholique Doctour or Father â–ª or any Olde General Councel c What other thing is this but a Mountebankes Preface to commend his wares vnto the Audience As if he should say in plainer woordes 〈◊〉 to them 〈◊〉 beloued in the Lorde you mâ—y tâ—ke me perchaunce for a Benchwhistâ—er or a man of litle knowledge and practise and altogeather vnhable to reproue the General and Catholique Doctrine of the whole world and to draw you from those Maisters and Teachers which alwaies hitherto ye haue ben ruled â—y But I shal tel you deere brethren I haue seene and readen as much as any man yea as all the learned men aliue I haue trauailed vnto the very Primitiue Church it selfe I haue bene conuersant with Old Catholike Doctors and Fathers and old General Councels As for these Priests Cardinals and Popes whom you folowe they bring nothing but Conclusions of Scholemen and deuises of Later Doctours and Ceremonies of their owne making c. But I will bring you no other thing but that which is Auncient I wil bring you back to the Institution of Christ himself You shal haue al things ministred vnto you as they were in the time of the Apostles You shal heare God himself speake vnto you The Priestes shall robbe you no more of halfe the Sacrament You shall knowe what you heare readden in the Church Ye shal haue no Supremacie of Pope no Real Presence of Christs body in the Sacrament Ye shal be brought to Old Customes which y e Councel of Nice would haue to preuaile And Tertullian shal teach you how that is true that was first ordeined And as I saied before so say I now againe If any man aliue be hable to reproue me I will become his obedient Scholer But I know there is not one that is able to doâ— it and because I know it therefore I speake it So beginneth the Mountebanke But in further processe he is proued to be so vaine in Craking So crafty in Shifting So demure in CouÌ„terseiting So false in Affirming So desperate in Abusing of his Aduersarie of old Councels and Doctours yea and of new also that it is perceiued wel inough euen of them that say God saue you my Lorde vnto him that al is not so as he saith Neuerthelesse they haue a good sporte to see the prety Shiftes and Defenses and Scapes that the Mountebanke canne make And though it be euident that he liâ—â—h yet they thinke not these maters to be so great or necessary but men may suffer them wel inough to be mainteined how so euer it be as long as neyther Trade of Merchaundise nor Study of Temporal Law nor Pastime abrode nor Pleasure at home is hindered by it For like as we may vnderstand by the maâ—ket folkes how the market goeth So when it is in sight that in Countries and Cities of greatest policy priuate mens goodes are not without punishment touched but the Common Churches of the whole Countrie are openly spoyled And when Papistes are neither suffred to speak â–ª nor to go abrode but Caluinistes Lutherans and Anabaptistes are not only suffred to speake but to speake one against the other And in one Citie or Countrie to set furâ—h and maintaine contrary Doctrines it is easy to perceiue that The vvisedome of God is but folly emong men And that al is for Policie and nothing for Religion and that men haue so forsaken the old Faith that they are not sâ—ttled in any new And that Faith in deede is almost extinguished by to much folowing of Carnal Reason and that Reason in thousandes is vtterly blinded because thei haue put from them the Obedience vnto Faith Yet this Corruption notwithâ—tanding I haue taken some paines in â—erswading with thee Indifferent reader to BEVVARE of M. Iewel Fearng in deede least to many be so in Indifferent that they passe not whether he say true or false And praying to God that they may haue A desire to know the Trueth which as yet care not for it and that other may haue a constancie to confesse the Truth when they know it And that the rest condemne not the the Truth before they know it Farevvel From Louane Quaâ—doquidem liber hic tertius contra M. Ievvellum à viris Linguae Anglicanae Sacrae Theologiae eruditissimis probatus est iudico eum tutô posse distrahi euâ—lgari Ità testor Cunerus Petri Pastor S. Petri. Louanij 3. Nouemb. 1566 ¶ Faultes escaped in the Printing Folio Page Line Fault Correction 6. 2. 1. Latines Laâ—enesse 40. 2. 12. ye he 47. 1. 6. Degrees Decrees 63. 1. 13. Dionysi of Dionysius 63. 2. 19. them then 80. 2. 2. tel lyes to tel lies 118. 2. 14. CoÌ„staÌ„â—in Constantius 141. 2. 4. y â— visible that a visible 142. 2. 15. he coÌ„clu he were conclu 160. 2. 3. primitiue Primate 181. 2. 16. the coÌ„munioÌ„ praier the Lordes prayer 191. 1. 3. peple vn peple might vn 195. 1. 7. of old Fa. of the old Fa. 197. 1. 14. ValeÌ„tians Valentinians 206. 1. 18. Suprem Preeminence 216. 2. 27. y â— it were that if it were 217. 2. 4. ar bound are not bound Ibid.  24. How say How sayed 221. 2. 10. yet if yet it 225. 2. 11. can say can truly say 230. 2. 8. gather easily gather 234. 2. 16. Trick or two Tricke or Toy In the Margent 172. 1. for is for there is 228. 1. Iew. 21. Ioan. 21. IbideÌ„  taken out of taken of The Third Booke of BEWARE OF M. Iewel IT may seeme by my Two former Bookes y â— I haue detected as great Sophistrie Brauerie Insinceritie of M. Iewels as any man lightly that hath but worldly regarde of his Trueth and Honestie may coulourably venter to practise But in comparison of that which I haue further to obiect the forsaid behauiours may seme to be perdonable For D. Harding is but one man and the same not knowen to the whole worlde and much lesse honoured of the whole He is also his Aduersary and M. Iewel taketh him selfe to be in no point perchaunse of lesse worthinesse And if in some one or two D. Harding farre passâ—th him yet in many moe on the other side he thinketh him selfe to be better And therefore when he doth handle him at his pleasure belye him Contemne him Mocke him and Tosse him without doubting or blusshing although it be very il done yet it is not exceeding il But to despise men without al doubt worthy notable To set light by them whom the whole world hath reuereÌ„ced To interprete Lawes and Canons after his own liking To disanul general couÌ„cels To corrupt Auncient Fathers To set them vp to pul them doune againe To bring them in to thrust them againe out To binde men to the Authoritie of the first six hundred yeares To appeale to the Primitiue Church only in his own cause and to drawe his Aduersarie vnto any State of Churche