his bloud and which he hath promised to drink with us new in his Fathers Kingdome Nor will the wine be alwayes new to those that are renewed as they ought to be indeed for your Parishes which you call old Bottles I am sure the wine or pure government is too new for them Nor will the Bottles be older as you say the longer the government is delayed if the power of the Word be there for renewing them But you say What sense is this What logicall connexion I answer that shall appear there is sense enough and connexion enough and Logike enough though I had rather have more Scripture and lesse Logike for all I aim at is what the Scripture aims at that the bottles should be fit for the wine the necks for the yoke and the subjects for the commands Master Ley's Resolution Page 23 24. To that of his That Jesus Christ could as easily have set up his government by miracle had there been such a primary c. necessity c. 1. The acts and times for divine Providence towards his Church are various God had his Church at first and no written Word for it till the Law was writ and Moses wrote c. And God added to the morall Lawes ceremoniall and judiciall divers of which were not executed till forty yeares after at their comming into Canaan so far ws God beforehand 2. Whereas he saith Christ could as easily have setled the government by miracle we grant it yea and more without a miracle and yet more that he did so in Mat. 16. 19. John 10. 23. Mat. 18. 15 16 17. 3. If Christs delay of Government must be our example then as well for the Anabaptisticall delay of Baptism till his age Luke 3. 23. nor was it Johns office to set up a Government but to prepare the way c. And Christs publike Ministery lasted but foure yeares or three yeares and a half and he began then to set up Government Reply All your proof reaches but to this 1. That God dealt variously with his Church They had first no written Word and after a written Word 2. That Christ could have setled his Government by miracle but did not 3. That Christs delay of Government must be no more our example then his Baptisme My proofe was to shew there was no such morall necessity of the setling because it was not setled Now what have you overthrown here Not that Christ suspended his Government and the seâ—ling of it for that you grant with me and prove it more at large then I did so as all your rest will be answered in two particulars 1. To that of Gods Church and Government before his Word c. which you would insinuate as some advantage to your serling c. What is that to Gods dispensation now if there wanted a Word there was a supplement of vision and dreams c. And I hope you will not goe before the Law so much as you doe for a Patern You goe too far when you goe to the times of the Law You have a Prophet now to hear in all things Act. 3. 22 2. To that of Baptism to be delayed as well as Government from Christs example I cannot dispute that here Master Tomes will satisfie you at large in his learned Examen where he hath made work for a whole Assembly That he knowes not but it may be delayed till they be of years But to answer you in your scope You bring this to prove That Christ is not to be imitated in all things I grant it But what is that to prove that Christ setled not his Government when he began his Ministery or Iohns For the businesse on your part is to find out either that the Government was setled before or with the Ministery or there was as much necessity of it as of the Word but for some reason and not from any thing in the nature of the Government but some other extrinsicall reason it was delayed Which ought not to take place now And this is yet to prove all your proof summed up reaches not to this But you imply The will of God in his dispensations was the cause But the will of God in his dispensations carries a rule of righteousnesse along with it and of spirituall reason And in Gospell dispensations and extrinsicall proceedings of Gods will you will find a rule and golden reed of righteousnesse measuring the Temple and every dispensation and even this of suspending Government hath its rule in the Gospell that a word of obedience must precede and go before a forme of obedience and a word of faith before the obedience of faith and living stones before a living Temple Master Ley's Resolution Page 24 25. Whereas he saith the gifts for Government were not given till Christ ascended it is answered 1. That he ascended 43 dayes after his ministration and that added to the yeare forementioned makes but small difference c. 2. He put his Apostles upon neither of these offices preaching or governing without competent gifts an â—â—ualifications 3. For the modell of it which he saith people fell under as they were capable If he mean the written modell in the Word though it were young in Christs time or his Apostles yet not now we have had 1500 years siâ—câ— Why should that which is so old in constitution be thought too soone for execution And bisides Scripture directions we have many years the paterns of â—â— in many Reformed Churches 4. It hath by soft and slow degrees been brought in aâ— both in debates of Assembly Parliament c. And so sor execution â—â—â— First an Ordinance for Ordination and then a Directory c. Reply You prove here 1. That Christ gave gifts when he ascended and not any longtime in all his ministration and sending gifts 2. That he qualified â—â—s Apostles for government and preaching 3. That the government of Christ now so old should be seen set up as in other Kingdomes 4. That it proceeded by degrees in its setting up here Now all this thus gathered up proves not any thing against my assertion that Christ proceeded by degrees in his Ministery and giving out his government but rather strengthens my assertion And for your Arguments for setling implyed in these particulars 1. That Christs government was but a while in bringing forth the years considered 2. That the government in the Gospel being now so old might to be soone executed 3. That the Paterns of it are in other Reformed Churches I answer to all these in as few words 1. Prove your Argument first to be Christâ— the particulars and entirenesse accordingly and then I shall allow you your Argument but you grant it to be but partly Christs and partly the Assemblies or of Prudence 2. You must prove but the same againe that the government you have is the government there withall Gospel-necessaries take in else though the Gospel-government be never so old yours is but new and this Argument
in one and the same Kingdom would be considered when such an Interest growâ—s up from its infancy and first Reformation into a fuller and more perfect man And whether their petitioning of a power from the State to compleat and make them an Eldership and Presbytery doth not imply a power in the State more or rather as fully Ecclesiasticall as their Presbytery for can the State give them any Ecclesiasticall power and have none it selfe so as according to these Principles the State is Ecclesiastical as well as they and so not to be denied the power of Commissioning with them or else t is a meere contradiction to pray for power from those to their Eldership and Presbytery which they say is a Government and Power entirely Ecclesiasticall and compleat in it selfe and so as they either pray for that which they have of their own already or else pray for that from the State which they cannot give them Petition It belongs unto them by Divine Right and by the Will and appointment of Jesus Christ which with the help of superiour Assemblies in cases of appeale or in all administrations therein will prevent through the blessing of God all the feared inconveniences Inference Whence we may infer that the Presbytery and Eldership of a Congregation is of Divine Right c. yet that Divine Right is perfected and compleated by that which is not of as pure Divine Right as it selfe viz. Superiour Assemblies and so becomes neither purely Prudentiall nor Divine but Mixt and so is neither good Divine nor good Humane Right Petition And the Magistrate to whom we professe the Church to be accountable for their proceedings in all their Elderships and Church Assemblies and punishable by him with Civill censures for their miscarriages Inference Whence we may inferre that the Civill Magistrate is neither over nor under the Presbytery and where they place it who can tell by this Petition of theirs for over it the Magistrate is not for they say Commissioners over them are not sufferable and under it they say the Magistrate is not for their Eldership and Presbytery are to be accountable to the Civill power for their miscarriages and how at the same time they should subject their Churches in their mal Administrations to the Magistrates power of judging and yet challenge such an entire sole supreame and Ecclesiasticall Judicature is a mystery becomming the learning of that same Assembly to reveale which first begun it Principles against the Divine Right o◠〈…〉 present Presbytery extracted from the Reasons 1. THey are no such Presbyters of Jesus Christ as the first were because ordained by an Antichristian power of Bishops nor were Bishops true Presbyteres nor those who joyned with them in their Ordination who were made by them nor is there any succession of Ordination but it implies both a Perpetuall Visible Church and a true Church Ministery and Ordinances under Antichrist which all are to be proved by them 2. If there were any such true Church invisible under Antichrist to which they succeed in their Ministery then it must appeare that they succeed that very invisible Church and that that very invisible Church had a true Ministery or Presbytery in it for men may be Saints or good men yet not good Presbyters or Ministerially sent 3. As they now in their practice will not account any for true Presbyters but such who can prove to them their personall Ordination from them so we demand of these Presbyters an account of their personall succession accordingly which personall succession if it be false and interrupted any where in the Line must needs be all false from such a point where the first interruption was made 4. Though Christs promise is enough to ground a perpetuity of Church and Christs presence yet not of his promise made good to such particular men or to their pretended succession 5. They that challenge a Divine Right to the power they act by must act by a gift as Divine and infallible as their right and power and thus did the primitive Presbyters and Elders therefore the gift being but mixt their right or power is but mixt accordingly and not Divine 6. They who were Elders or Presbyters in the first Churches as Ierusalem c. were gifted by a spirit which taught the very infallible Word which is now written or Scripture and so they then did constitute advise counsell in the place of this written Word and all Scripture Formes and Institutions were then in the gift and persons but no such thing can be said of any Eldership or Presbytery of men now 7. They who set up an Eldership or Presbytery now of Divine Right to constitute ordaine counsell c. do joyne to the Word written or infallible Scripture a Power lesse infallibly gifted who by such a Divine Right and Power pretended shall controle the Word of Truth by Interpretations of that Word lesse then Truth which is not consistent with the glory of the Word 8. There is no Eldership or Presbytery in Scripture but either the Churches Act did precede it act it or accompany it by precept or practice which makes the Divine Right of the Presbytery questionable uncertain unsafe because of a contrary Scripture and Precept 9. The Eldership and Presbytery which are brought for instances are questionable first for the Persons who were not such very Presbyters as they would imply but Apostles Evangelists c. or otherwise ordained either by Apostles or Church or otherwise gifted by speciall unction or else an Eldership of eminency not of Office 10. They hold this Divine Right is in the first subject in the Congregationall Presbytery and yet they set up a Classicall Provinciall Nationall Presbytery to compleat and controle this of the Congregationall and how this their Divine Right can be subjected thus to a Right lesse Divine is unreasonable and unscripturall to imagine 11. Suppose such a power as a Nationall Presbytery collected from all parts of the Kingdom every Congregation having an Interest or part there and this Presbytery so Nationall and Collective informed by a Divine Right for judging sins c. shall not this Nationall Presbytery take cognizance of States if sinning Ecclesiastically as well as others and if so what proceeding what cenâ—ures will follow from such a body as universall as the body of that State and of as much Interest in the Kingdom as they and of more interest by how much more Divine a Right they act by and by how much neerer they are seated to the conscience and how Kingdoms have been embroyled by such an Ecclesiasticall Interest Histories will tell ye 12. So as in this straite when Parliament is perswaded of no Divine Right Assembly of a Divine Right and the Dissenting brethren of another Divine Right is not the way this to let the Parliament have their Liberty of Conscience to settle no Divine Right by a power and the Assembly to use their Liberty in a Divine Right with all that
they were more in the light and the immediate way of the revelation of Truth 3. They tooke not in the power of the Magistrate to help them nor did they clasp it as one with their own 4. They consisted of ‖ Brethren as well as of the Presbyterie and both together had a joynt interest and concurrencie in all power 5. The Presbyteries were not as now Classicall Provinciall Nationall these are no Scripture-forms but devises of men 6. The Presbyterie is of no more in the Greek then of a ‖ metaphorical or figurative signification signifying Seniority or Eldership and the setting it up in a notion of power and office is more then the Scriptures will clearly beare such Notions in the Word are but Notions of form and order not of Office 7. The Presbyteries now are not rightly constituted because they consisted of a Ministery from Antichrist and the Bishops of Rome ordaining one another by the same power they received from them 8. Their ‖ Congregations are not such as before so constituted because Parishes are of a Popish and politick constitution 9. Baptisme is not to be received by Generation now as Circumcision was but by Regeneration or visible Profession as at first Nor are the carnall seed now any more children of Abraham but the ‖ Faithfull And no Ordinance is now to be administred upon legall consequence but upon Gospell-precept Independancy So called What it is and what they hold THe people of God are only a Church when called by the Word and Spirit into Consent or Covenant and Saints by profession and all Church-power is laid in here and given out from hence into Pastorship and Elders c. and a just distribution of Interest betwixt Elders and People All spirituall Government is here and not in any power forreigne or extrinsecal to the Congregation or authoritative Their children are made Christians first by Infant-baptisme and after by the Word and they are baptized by a foederal or Covenant-holinesse or Birth-priveledges as under the Law They may enjoy all Ordinances in this estate and some may Prophesie Exceptions 1. THat there is not such a power radically or fundamentally placed in the Church to make Pastors and Elders c. because there is first no such practice in the Word but rather of an Apostolicall or Ministeriall power which made or gathered Churches first not Churches them 2. The Eldership and Presbitery of Apostles and Elders did principally act and authoritatively act and not the whole Church or people they in a lower and lesse Interest in a way of choyce or vote and consent 3. That which is called Ordination c. was by the Apostles and a power established in the Presbitery not in the Church as meer Beleevers 4. They that were Baptized by an Antichristian power are no right Baptized Members of Churches and yet so are all of their Churches as were Baptized under Prelacie the power of the dispenser being Antichristian and the subject or Infant no visible Beleever for that Ordinance 5. Their Church consists not all of visible Saints or Beleevers according to their own Principle for their children being baptized and in that condition are no actuall visible Saints all their Church are not living stones nor visibly holy And it may be more cleerly proved that meer civill and morall men are rather to be admitted of their Church-society then such as children are who are but meerly naturally visible neither spiritually civilly nor morally visible 6. That of foederal holynesse in 1 Cor. 7. 14. is only to satisfie a scruple that if Vnbeleeving made wife or husband unholy it made children unholy too and so both or none must be put away 7. There is no carnall seed now to be sealed Christ being come in the flesh which flesh before had a Seale of Circumcision but there is no such externall priviledge now by any such right 8. All Consequences drawn from Circumcision are of no more force then from the cloud and the Sea and the rocke and Noah's Arke and other typicall and figurative places in the Word nor can any legall or probable Scriptures make any Law or Rule for any such Gospell-administration which is not directly and in scripture-Scripture-words to be found 9. Childrens Baptisme in the Church is a way never to have a Church of such Baptized Beleevers as in the Apostles times 10. Baptisme being a visible signe cannot rationally be administred upon one that cannot see nor discern what is done to whom the water can be no signe but they are only told of it when they come to age and how can it hold proportion with Circumcision when as that was a mark remaining in the flesh when they came to age to signifie to them But water is like a flash of lightning which must be taken by the Beleever in that quick and vanishing act or else it hath no sensible efficacy to which it was instituted nor doth the Beleever thus any other way enjoy it but by way of History or a thing past and done which he never saw Baptisme is as a flash of lightning as it is well observed by one Circumcision was as a fixed Star so much difference in these two Rites 11. Institution of Baptisme is to duty as well as grace which children cannot perform and so answer the signe 12. Institution of Baptisme is doctrinall in the very act of it as is acknowledged by all the present Baptism Matth. 28. Baptizing them in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost c. Now this implies a capable and teachable subject 13. Their Churches are not distinct from other Societies Antichristian because there is no visible gifts by which their Churches are visibly qualified from any other Societies and according to the promises of gifts in Ephes 4. 11. nor no such Church-gifts as in 1 Cor. 12. c. where there was the gifts of the Spirit powerfully and visibly spiritualizing that body and making it to excell all other bodies civill or Antichristian And that Prophesie was a more extraordinary gift then is now any where in the Churches Anabatisme So called What it is and what they hold THe Church of Christ are a Company of baptized Beleevers and whatsoever Disciple can teach the Word or make out Christ may baptize or administer other Ordinances That the Church or Body though but of two or three yet may enjoy the Word and Ordinances by way of an Administrator or one deputed to administer though no Pastor That none are to be baptized but Beleevers That those commonly called Church-Officers as Pastors c. are such as the Church or Body may be without That none are to be called Brethren but baptized Beleevers All administrations of Ordinances were given to the Apostles as Disciples not so under the notion
sin My proofe is this in behalfe of your Argument That conscience which is not wholly consenting is not fully perswaded But such is the State or Publike conscience viz. not fully consenting at this time Therefore the State-conscience is not fully perswaded Note Because some are more for it some are lesse for it I prove the State-conscience not fully consenting That conscience which hath not Scripture to secure it cannot be fully consenting or perswaded But such is the Publike conscience at this time concerning this present Government Therefore the Publike or State-conscience cannot be so fully consenting or perswaded Note Because they which cannot call it a Government by Divine Right are not secured concerning it by the Word and then by conscience are not fully consenting nor perswaded Master Ley's Resolution pag 9 10. If we take his reason to stand immediately against obedience and so consequently against commands c. It is more formall but still as feeble Repugnant to Religion and reason against former Protestations and the Covenant for some will alwaies scruple c. Reply Some of this might have been spared Let us have as much reason and as little reviling as may be Your reason is because then neither Protestations nor Covenant of State can be administred for some will alwaies scruple So as here is the force of your reason Because Protestations and Covenants in the State are put upon a people unwilling and malignant therefore Government should First a truth of Government and the establishment of it is but indirectly unsutably and disproportionably proved from Oaths and Covenants Indeed under the Old Testament and in the State of Israel Covenants were more agreeable to the way of that Church they were part of the Worship then and it was a way of obligation and engagement fitted more to the Policie of that Nation They were a People or Nation of themselves singled out from the world and marked by a carnall Ordinance And their Discipline was fitted to the whole Nation by God himselfe and so Covenants c. gathered them up from the world into their Nationall way of Worship c. But now the way of Church and Worship changing and the Laws of such kind of externall Pedagogie ceasing and a more inward and spirituall Law comming in you might have done well â—re you took things thus for granted to cleere the way of Covenants under the Gospell and not to prove one probable thing by another Those of your way are against a little Church Covenant and why not a great one For the imposing of Protestations now c. It is not my work here to discusse nor am I against any way of State-security that may consist with â—ound Prudence and for the spirituall part of them wherein men covenant in the things of God let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind That is the Apostle's rule I am sure what ever any say to the contrary and will stand In civill things I would have any way or designe of assurance that is fairly and justly Politick in spirituell things only such waies of assurance as are Gospell-waies and may sure with the New Testament-beleevers And now you are to prove more then perhaps you thought on that is to cleare a Church-covenant which many of your Way are against for though you condemne it in some Churches not of your Way yet a Nationall Church-covenant you plead for And how can this be both true and false that a great Church-covenant is lawfull and a little one unlawfull A Nationall Church-covenant lawfull and a Particular or Congregationall Church-covenant unlawfull This only by the way To shew you how one may mistake his way in a mist you were proving a Government and now you are engaged to prove Church covenants which you are both for and against And yet after all this of Protestations and Covenants there is no faire proofe of establishing a Government or imposing it in your way and designe from these It is not safe going to the State for a Paterne for the Church If the State in certain seasons of unfaithfulnesse and unsettlement contrive any way of security and assurance necessity is often a law maker in States yet not so in the Church will you from hence argue for a liberty in the Church Will you make necessity your Gospell your Law-giver there Necessity is sometimes a suspender of laws in the Gospell but no law-maker Master Ley's Resolution pag. 10. But I answer I wonder an ingenuous man as M. Saltmarsh is should make such an Objection Reply These are good words and I hope you shall have no worse then you bring Yet we must speak truth Master Ley's Resolution page 10. I answer The Church government is such as in the chiefe parts of it is from the Word Reply You grant then that the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the Word So was Episcopacie and Prelacy in some parts of it There is not any false Worship or Way but it hath some parts of truth in it The great Image had a head of gold c. The Mystery of iniquity sits in the Temple of God c. The Whore of Babilon sits in Skarlet decked with gold and precious stones and Pearles Truth must be all one and the same and homogeneal not in parts The Jews had not the Law but then their own traditions mingled There is one Lord one Faith not two Master Ley's Resolution page 10. Things of lesser moment in it though they are not directly from Scripture yet not repugnant they are of Prudence and agreeable to the best Reformed Churches Reply But Why of lesser moment All things are of moment of spirituals Indeed if they be such as be not the Gospel s they are then as you say of lesser moment and yet of moment too in another sense for Traditions of men make void the Commandements of God Nor are the grounds of Prudence any Scripture-grounds to rule by Prudence hath let in more Will-worship then any thing Prelacy had its Prudence for every New additionall in Worship and Government And if Presbytery take Prudence too let the Reader judge what may follow And what is that Not directly from Scripture yet not repugnant Surely Christ's rule is not such he opposes any Tradition to the Commandements of God Not directly from Scripture is repugnant to Scripture Such is the onenesse entirenesse indivisibility and essentiality of the Truth He that is not with me is against me And for the Reformed Churches as a rule that is to set the Sun by the Dyall and not the Dyall by the Sun We must set the Churches by the Word and not Church by Church and the Word by the Church Master Ley's Resolution page 10. 11. Because the practice of the Government belongs not to the peoples part but to the Ministers and Elders Because so far as concerns the peoples compliance they are to be instructed before they yeeld submission Because if any
acknowledge and yet that there is a Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Presbytery which are but Prudentiall and humane or mixed Judicatures according to such a distinction and yet are allowed by them a Power Supreme and coercive to the Divine Right of the Congregationall Presbytery which is the first and immediate subject of the Divine Right of Presbytery as they themselves acknowledge And now whether doe not their owne principles controll that pretended Divine Right they plead for and set up a Presbytery of Charity and Prudence over the Presbytery in the particular Congregation which they say is only of Divine Right 4. How can that Presbytery whose constitution is so questionable challenge such a Divine Right As first their Presbyters or first constituting Principles are ordained by a questionable power viz. that of Bishops Their Ruling-Elders by a power as questionable viz. by a Rule or Ordinance of Parliament prudentiall for triall for election because of the generall corruption in this Kingdome both in Ministers and people not by that very Apostolicall Scripture-Rule or Institution of Jesus Christ Their Congregations Parishionall and of politick constitution not Congregationall according to Scripture Their way of constituting this present Presbytery extraordinary by such an Assembly without precept or example for such a Way in the whole New Testament from whence the whole Order of that dispensation ought to be framed and not from the Law or Old Testament or some cases of necessity in the State or Church of Israel by way of Analogy as they say in their Modell to the Parliament The Primitive Elders and Apostles were qualified immediately from the Spirit with gifts proper to such a Ministration which these Presbyters and Elders being not but most by gifts and habits of Art and Science acquired by industry therefore these present Presbyters cannot challenge the same power for Church-Censures without the same Spirit gifting them and anointing them to such a power and administration in the Church but ought to be content meerly with a mixed and partly prudentiall power because of the mixture of their anointing and gifts if they will needs have such a Government set up for Christ's which is not all Christs and most of that all very questionable whether of Christ or no. For all their proofs alleadged from Scripture for the Presbytery by Divine Right or of such Presbyters as were ordained either by Christ himself as the Apostles or by a power from the Apostles or from such who in that power received from the Apostles did ordaine or by a power in the Church or Congregation preceding such a power and accompanying such a power Now this present Presbytery can neither make it selfe appeare to be so purely ordained nor have they the Church or Congregationall power so preceding or accompanying such an Ordination nor is that act of Imposition of hands by which their present Presbyters stand Ministers a meere signe of setting apart or meerly significative but an Institution for gifts to be conferred under the Law it was an empty and bare Rite but under the Gospell it cannot be proved to be such an empty Rite Gospell-signes being but few full and ministeriall to the spirit not meerly significatively-visible as the Institutions and Rites under the Law were So as all being thus questionable still in this present Presbytery how can they so Apostolically challenge such a Divine Right their present constitutions being mixt questionable fallible not one and the same with that primitive pure certaine constitutions and practices Whereas it appears in their Scripture-proofs that both in Jerusalem Ephesus Crete c. the Presbyters and Elders did constitute c. and were most consulted with and advised and therefore they assume the same power and so force out rather then prove out their frame of their present Presbytery from such practices I desire the Brethren to tell us whether the Word of the Gospell was then wholly in Scripture or writing but partly in the Spirit and gifts or teaching and therefore the Eldership of the Churches then were so gifted as to direct constitute advise and from the ministration of gifts in the Eldership c. the Institutions formes and Rules were given out into Scripture or writing which Scripture or written Word is now in the place of that infallible Primitive Eldership and therefore for any Presbytery or Eldership to assume now such a power as the first did they doe not only without warrant substitute themselves to such a Presbytery or Eldership which stood by another anointing or spirit of gifts then themselves doe but they sit downe in the throne with the very Scripture or written Word of God casting a shadow upon the glory and infallibility of that Word by that present authority and power which they now challenge in the interpretation of that Word in their Presbytery because by such a sure and certaine power as Divine Right allowes them they having not a sure and infallible Spirit for Church-censures or the execution of such a power may put forth a certaine sure executive power by an uncertaine unsure and fallible spirit And so how proportionable a power of Divine Right is with a Spirit not purely Divine and how proportionable a power of Church-censures acted by a gift not purely the Spirit 's but rather the Vniversities and Schooles and to joyne such an Eldership so with the infallible Word or Scripture which for want of that primitive or pure anoynting by gifts shall controule the pure Word of Truth by an Interpretation lesse then Truth I leave to all the world of beleevers to judge How such a visible power and Judge as a Nationall Assembly of such a Presbytery can be set up which must judge all the Churches and Congregations of Christ all the Magistracy and State-power in the Kingdom they assuming to themselves a spirit of judging and discerning of sins And whether by this power the Parliament of England shall not fall under the cognisance interpretation and censure of such an Assembly for some sins which they as a Civill power may commit especially dealing in Ecclesiasticall causes And then how far such a Nationall Assembly may manage such crimes to the heightning of their own interest and to the troubling the interest of the State amongst the people I let all judg who know how the same visible Ecclesiasticall Judge is condemned by all the Reformed Kingdoms under another notion viz. of the Antichrist and Pope and Councels And how that Antichristian power and Judge in Ecclesiasticals hath troubled this and other Kingdoms to the imbroiling them by excommunications into Wars and commotions as in our Histories c. and hath at length taken up other weapons then the Word to make good their Ecclesiasticall censures and interests And whether this visible forme of Classicall Provinciall Nationall Oecumenicall be any other then the like Papall Episcopall power differing only in forme in Consistoriall Provinciall Nationall Oecumenicall Counsels and Synods the like spirit
godlinesse Whether all your Fastings and Repentance were from true meltings of heart sound humiliation or because the State called for it and constrained it Whether your praying and preaching was not much of it Self of Invention of Parts of Art of Learning of seeking praise from man Oh should the light of the Spirit come in clearnesse and glory upon your spirit Oh! how much of Self of Hypocrisie of Vanity of Flesh of Corruption would appeare how would all be unprofitable For my part I cannot be so uncharitable but to wish you a better assurance then what you and your Brethren can find in your own works or righteousnesse For it is not what we approve but what God approves is accepted And I am perswaded however you are now loth it may be to lose reputation by going out of an old track of Divinity as Luther once yet when once your spirit begins to be unclothed of forms of darknesse and art of self-righteousnesse and that you with open face behold the glory of the Lord you will cry out Wo is me I am undone for I have seen the Lord and Lord depart from me for I am a sinfull creature and What went I out to see My owne unrighteousnesse or rather A Reed shaken with the winde An Answer to a Book intituled A Plea for Congregationall Government or A Defence of the Assemblies Petition c. YOu write thus 1 That the independents confesse you a true Church and Minstery 2 Those that are ordained by Bishops may be true Ministers else how am I a Preacher or they true Ministers 3 Succession is not necessary to the essence of a true Ministery 4 If no true Ministery no true Baptisme 5 Must not there be persons ordaining and persons ordained And so the dissenting Brethren hold 6 That you abuse the Assembly in citing their Humble Advice touching the Divine Right of a Congregationall Presbyteriall and not of the other The Independents assort a Divine Right there and in Synods too as they do They hold a Divine Right in one as well as the other 7 Their ordination by Bishops though it should be null yet they have all you can alleadge necessary to a Preacher 8 Parishes here are but as in New-England as in Jerusalem Antioch 9 Some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods an holy Ordinance of God and this Assembly so to be 10 If no Presbyteries must be of Divine Right because not infallibly gifted this concludes against Presbyteries and Ordinances 11 If you would have them content with a mixed power partly prudentiall because of their mixt dnointing you contradict that pure one you plead for 12 The Apostles and Elders and Angels of the Churches of Asia were not infallible as in divers practices 13 To say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word is little lesse then Blasphemy 14 The Presbyterians in France and Scotland and the Netherlands do not so imbroyle Kingdoms The feare of excommunicating Parliaments and Kingdoms is but a Bugbeare 15 They aske not of the State an Ecclesiasticall-power but a liberty to exercise that power 16 Hath Christâ— said that in a sound Church Church-Officers shall excommunicate and in an nnsound the Magistrate shall do it 17 He may in time say as much against Equity and justice living upon voyces in Assemblies as against Truth Answer To the first That the Independents confesse you a true Chruch and Ministery You are not to prove what others confesse or hold you to be but what you are indeed according to Truth Nor do I contend with those that hold you so but with you that hold your selves so as the Spirit to the Laodiceans Thou sayest thou art full c. and behold thou art poore c. To the second That they ordained by Bishops are true Ministers as the Independents and I a Preacher for all that Ordination If you meane that the Bishops Ordination makes not one for ever a false or Antichristian Minister I grant it because it is no marke to them that renounce it Babylon is no more Babylon to them that are gone out of it But what is this to your Ministery or Ordination who are yet under the Marke and Babylonish Ordination Renounce it come out as the Spirit cals ye and then your being Antichristian is no more to ye then to the Ephesians that they should be lesse light because they were once darknesse or lesse alive because they were once dead To the third That Succession is not necessary to a true Ministery It is both true and false in severall acceptions When there was a true power they ordained others and others them There was succession But that being lost under Antichrist so far as visibly to derive it to us there can be no such true visible Succession appearing And yet you that pretend to stand by the first power must prove your Succession if you will prove your power To the Fourth If no true Ministery no true Baptism For that as you please I dare not exalt the truth of your Baptism above that of your Ministery no more then you To the Fifth The dissenting Brethren hold there must be persons ordaining and ordained as well as we Yeâ— but do they hold Bishops ordaining and Presbyters ordained by Bishops and Presbyters of their ordaining ordaining others as you do To the Sixth of my unjust citing the Assemblies Modell or Humble Advice and that there is no more Divine Right asserted in the Congregationall Presbytery then in the Classicall c. which is done so by the dissenting Brethren I answer Let the Modell be printed to the world to end the difference betwixt you and me And for the Divine Right of the one and the other I am of your mind they are able to prove both alike of Divine Right that is in their Presbytery The one is no more of Divine Right then the other and neither of them of any And for the dissenting Brethren it is not them but you I deale with Why come you under their shadow in a storme and yet will let them have no liberty under yours but would turne us all abroad as Hereticks and Schismaticks To the Seventh Though the Ordination by Bishops be null yet they have the other necessaries to a Preacher Will ye undertake for the Assembly they shall stand to this that all their former Ordination by Bishops is null If so we are agreed if not all their other necessaries are no more then Ahabs peace What peace saith Jehu so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Iezebell are alive So what Ministery so long as the whoredoms of Babylon yet remaine To the Eighth That the Parishes are but as in New-England as in Ierusalem c. I pray forbeare this it is too manifest an errour Are the Parishes of England and Churches of Ierusalm one and the same so discipled so constituted Were all of Ierusalem and Antioch reckoned for Christs Congregations as all Parishes are To the Ninth
for the advancement of Reformation were interpreted by those of the same way with him as an enemy of Reformation as an adversary and an obstruction to the worke of Reformation and settlement of Church-Discipline as he saith P. O strange one of them thus censured by their own and by those whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himselfe against the new waies of Independency and Separation as he cals them But well how differ they C. He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline and censures and the Administration of the Lords Supper wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him As first He holds there is no precept nor president in Scripture for the suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church and all other Ordinances as well some of the other hold the contrary or mistake as he saith 2. That Matth. 18. 16 17. If thy Brother trespasse c. is not meant of the Church nor of excommunication nor suspension from the Sacrament which the other hold 3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan is not meant of suspension or excommunication from the Sacrament which the other hold 4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one no not to eat is not meant of Spirituall eating which the other hold 5. That Numb 9. 1 10 11. is not meant of excluding any by way of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension but of totall putting out from all Ordinances for legall uncleannesles not Spiritual 6. That Judas received the Supper or Sacrament as well as the other Apostles and that the Sop that was given him before he went out was after the Bread was distributed which some of the other deny 7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himselfe if he give warning to unworthy Communicants of the danger and then give it which the other hold not 8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated grosse impenitents for feare of partaking in their sin as to administer the Sacrament to them and they heare damnation in the one as well as eat damnation in the other That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is as well a converting Ordinance as any other being reckoned amongst the Meanes of Grace and so to be administred to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation which some of the other deny That they put groundlesse differences betwixt Preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments 9. That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9. 21 34 35. is no good proofe of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament 10. That the Authors Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question are not rightly applyed as his opposites say P. And are these the differences fully C. Yea excepting the Proofes on both sides for which I refer you to the Books themselves which all together are large P. But how conclude they C. The Author of the Vindication doth fairly shew them that they contend for what he doth grant them with advantage and yet they quarel with him for denying it as he saith P. Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another and amongst these of our Preshyterial side too C. And he hopes the Parliament will consider and take care that the Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing P. But how will some of our Ministers take this C. I know not that but I like well in this but he goes upon one ground more then all the rest P. What is that C. That the very ground upon which divers of the more moderaâ—e and tender in the Presbyteriall way go is the ground of all the growing and spreading of Schism and Separation Anabaptism and other Errours tending to them which yet they beleeve they so much preach against a strange mistake with them as he observes P. If it be so how pittifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds and the best of them too to be so mistaken is the more to be wondered for I count the tenderest of them the best but this is yet a secret to me C. Yea and to them it may seem so too but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper and some other thoughts of pertaking in their sins is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation which if fomented as the Author insinuates may in time subvert the other principles of Presbytery as indeed they may being something inconsistent and of a better and more spirituall nature and I am of his opinion for I would have all of a colour and constitution All light or all darkenesse and beleeve it your principles of a purer way will not long incorporate with any other the Ark and Dagon will not stand together and the way to overthrow the inventions of men is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down Not its own principles of Idolatry Will-worship and Tyranny But when there were some takings in of Reformation-principles as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy Popery fell much in the power of it and so when from Prelacy they went off to Presbytery Prelacy fell and so on If you make any remove from the common principles of this Presbytery into any of the way or parts of the Separation your Presbytery will down too because it takes in some purer principles then as we may gather from the Vindication Booke it will well beare P. But if these be then the common Principles of this Presbyteriall way as he would have it to communicate in Ordinances thus mixedly and to suspect no uncleannesse in any spirituall Communion from persons so communicating though of never so unreformed a life excepting onely some pretended form all flashy apparences of Faith and Repentance put on and off by the Communicants as occasion serves I shall have I thinke no such good thoughts as I had of that way C. But the grounds are yet further laid downe in the Book that unmixt Communions and suspending from the Sacrament are grounds of Schism and that the teaching of these formerly through ignorance or incogitancy are now to be taught and written and preached against P. I perceive then in a word That the maine thing the Vindication-Book drives at is to place Presbytery upon such a mixed uniformity in the partaking of Ordinances that there should be no act of suspension or separation practised in their Church lest the ground of separation get in and they that make conscience to separate or suspend in some particulars it implies they may go on to a further separation till upon more degrees of purity in communicating they go off
with such power from heaven became it is not managed according to pure Gospell-order nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted so as the fault is not because there is a Government as the Vindication observes but not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed And for his Charge against the purer Congregations as I know not any such doings amongst them so I will make no Apologie for them because that would bring them within the compasse of something like a crime and I know nothing but well by them THE NEW QVAERES Folio 1. Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT ASSEMBLY Quaere 1. VVHether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament not backed with Authority of the Civill Magistrate be not like to prove an impotent and invalid and ineffectuall meanes Whether it be not a far better way in point of Conscience and Prudence to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament not actually excommunicated though they thereby eat and drinke judgement to themselves then to deprive any to whom it really belongs Antiquaere 1. Whether is there any excommunication or no For the Vindication questions it in calling it an invalid thing and if so How can any such thing be setled at all as an Ordinance in the Church Whether ought Authority to joyne it selfe with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it Since nothing hath proved more fatall Whether excommunication being granted be any such bare thing as the Vindication speaks on so impotent 〈…〉 and ineffectuall without being Authorized from a power from men And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword Whether all the differences about Excommunication be not from the want of true Church-constitution And whether a Nationall Church be not too wide for the Ordinances and the Scabbard too big for the Sword And whether Solomons Temple and Christs be all of a largenesse so that one golden Reed will measure both Whether the old Temple that had Windowes of narrow Lights be any pattern for the new Whether any thing of Prudence As admitting scandalous persons to eat their owne damnation as the Vindication saith Rather then to deprive them to whom it really belongs be any Scripture-way of arguing which forbids us not to doe evill that good may come thereby Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons seeing though it may really belong to them yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing nor judging but only by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there for Administration of Ordinances can faithfully administer but accordingly for they that walke according to this Rule peace be on them and on the Israel of God Whether the Law of God in this be not as equitable as the Law of Man which judges not of secrets nor takes cognizance of things unknown Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons only sin who if he have a reall interest will not live in the evidence of it nor walke by the Rule of Administrations that he may partake Quaere 2. Fol. 51. Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament being no Ordinance of Christ without a totall suspension will not be a meanes rather to harden And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclayming being accompanied with serious Admonitions Exhortations publike and serious Reprehensions Reasons 1. Because that such persons are more hardned by it totall exclusion only working shame 2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent they will be holy for a day or two and make vows c. and may be so converted 3. Many then will read c. which would not do so before in an Hypocriticall conscience and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reforme 4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations Exhortations c. that ten to one would be converted by such admonition rather then by suspention therefore Christ when he came to save sinners permitted them familiarly to him and his Ordinances Antiquaere 2. Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds being a questionable Ordinance as well as suspention one of them may not be as well made use on as the other Suspention as well as Excommunication upon his grounds Whether the Admonitions Exhortations Reprehensions Examinations be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to or rather to quicken and spiritualize the worthy receivers who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations as the whole straine of Scripture precept and practice speake Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers as the Scriptures never speak on For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons who were constituted according to the Rule and for Corinth and the rest that had such bad Members they are not examples in that of gathering or constituting or administring but reforming as the Apostles who calls them to the rule of the Word This one mistake hath deceived many Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly when he was here in the flest be any rule for admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spirituall Ordinances And whether there be not a spirituall difference betwixt Christ not offered and offered betwixt his conversing in the flesh for making up the mystery of Redemption and the mystery of Redemption made up and finished by the eternall Spirit in which he offered himselfe betwixt Christ in the flesh and in the Spirit or Ordinance Whether did Christ intend his ordinary or occasionall converting to be any rule for his Church or Kingdome in its Administrations or Ordinances which is a worke of another forme And whether this intermingling of carnall and spirituall notions be a Scripture-way Whether ought we to force any consequences or inferences upon the Word for practise in administrations in things neither clearly nor intentionally for ought we see nor mystically directed appointed or instituted by Christ And whether such a ground once granted will not let in one kind of will-worship as well as another And for that ten to one being converted so as he sayes Quere Whether it is not ten to one any will be a converted but rather hardned Quere 3. Fol. 53. Whether did Christ ever intend that none but true believers should receive his Supper or did he not infallibly know that many unregenerate and impenitent should and would receive it And the Antagonists grant that close Hypocrites have an external right then if these why not others Christ having ordained the Sacrament of the Supper as well as the Word to be a savour of death to such and God hath his end in both the glory of his Justice in the one as well as of his Grace and Mercy in the other Antiquaere Whether
did not Christ intend that all should receive or communicate in outward administrations by an externall right And if so then what ground is there for the visible imponitent or known scandalous Whether if true saving faith were the one part of the Interest and the externall right the other part of it there be any ground left for the other Communicants And whether that the Scriptures rule and purer practice of all Churches in the Gospell excepting when falne or beside the rule and the Scripture Cautions do not wholly exclude such scandalous impenitent persons pleaded for against all other forrain probable possible rationall or Rethoricating consequences and conclusions to the contrary Whether the glory of Gods justice in the judgement upon unworthy receivers be any ground to take in Communicants for condemnation since it is full against other Scriptures that Christ came not into the world to condemne the world and to save mens lives not to destroy them and he would not the death of a sinner And whether though finally condemnation be ordered for all such yet no such thing being formally externally dispensatively ordered any persons ought to be called in for condemnation in such a way Whether this be not quite against the nature of the Gospell dispensation Christ under the Gospell dispensing himselfe and giving out himselfe as a Saviour a Redeemer and in all the Gospell declining judgement I come not to judge the world reserving that worke till he appeare in his own day to condemnation of sinners this being only his day of reconciliation to them Whether the Apostle in Rom. 3. where he saith But if our righteousnesse commend the righteousnesse of God is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance And not rather as we be slanderously reported and some affirme that we say Let us do evill that good may come thereof doth not parallell this For the Apostle here though Gods righteousnesse and justice was set forth by his justice upon sinners yet he did not say as in the Quaere is said Let us then do evill that God may be glorified or good may come thereof Quaere 4. Fol. 53. Whether all Ordinances proving alike good or bad saving or damning and impenitent persons as well encreasing their damnation by hearing praying fasting c. What reason can be rendred by any rational Christian why such persons should not be admitted to the Sacrament as to any other Ordinance or not suspended equally from all Antiquaere Whether any such consequence of admission or suspention from Ordinances ought to be grounded upon damnation or judgement but rather upon words of command and institution and Scripture-practice And if any such appeared all these Consequences which the Vindication draws forth wringing bloud and not milke from the Word might be saved and he need not go so far about which when all is done brings a soule but at best upon a probable specious or reall coloured Argument Whether since the Vindication pulls down cleare Scripture-Texts and grounds in this Controversie to weaken the building of his Adversary he ought not in conscience first to have had a cleare Word or Institution for the contrary practice and not only probable and litterally conclusive grounds that soules can stand at surest upon but like men upon Ice who are in as faire a probability to fall as stand And whether having taken away the Scripture-Texts for Presbytery it selfe he can well hold up any upon his grounds And whether is not this sceptiall or doubtfull way of reasoning upon Scripture neither pulling quite down nor building up a way rather to fill all the roomes with rubbish and at length neither to have new building nor old What man going to build a Tower sitteth not down first and seeth what it will cost him lest having begun and not able to finish all men begin to laugh at him saying c. But whether is not all this ado about Ordinances rather for want of a right and purer constitution of Churches which would save all this controversie about scandalous and impenitent sinners when the Church were not troubled with such where the Ordinances are P. Well I am by this time well perswaded and having heard all this for my part I cannot but see that in setling things suddenly upon the Kingdom and things thus questionable and unwarrantable in the way of Administration and a Kingdom so full of impenitent and scandalous sinners as Parochiall Congregations generally are there is danger of great sin and great trouble C. I will therefore adde two or three Arguments more and so conclude An Experimentall-Argument for pure Churches and Ordinances THere is a spirituall Antipathie betwixt Grace and Nature Flesh and Spirit the Flesh lusting against the Spirit and the Spirit against the Flesh and the more spirituall or more carnall the more these two contrary Natures worke and the more powerfully against each other as in Sarah and Hagar Isaac and Ishmael and the lesse or more they can beare with each other As for example While Iudas carnall nature or disposition uninflamed by Satan boyled and heightned not into any such grosse act as selling and betraying of Christ the Disciples bore with him more and Christ himselfe as he was man and in a state of Infirmity could more endure him then upon the breaking out of his sin and so in Simon Magus in Ananius and Saphira and others whom the Apostles could no longer suffer not by way of Discipline or inflicting Censure but by way of a spirituall contrarinesse to such grosse hypocrisie and sin discovered And so the experiences of all that are of a pure Gospell-temper will witnesse to this very Age in acts of spirituall fellowship and Community in all acts of Worship c. This is founded not only on spirituall antipathies and sympathies but in naturall and civill naturall things of a contrary nature bearing one another no lesse and things of a civill nature yet contrary doing the like Hence arise separations meerly naturall and sensitive and rationall Hence arises a particular Schism and separation in all the things of the world and a secret gathering and contracting of things from the contrary into the same kinde the common purity being lost as the Apostle implies by which Nature did at first more universally agree as if one common spirit had been in it And thus it was in the Churches of God at first when three foure or five thousand did agree in one way of spirituall fellowship Doctrine breaking of bread and Prayers but we see there is not now such pourings out of spirit upon multitudes and Nations that a Nationall-Church should be together in such a unity of spirit And under the Law there was even a weaker example in the people of the Jewes being taken out from the people of the world and naturally hating all that were common and uncleane as the Gentiles And before the Law the people of God did gather into Families and particular societies as in Aâ—â—â—â—am
10. Heb. 10 â—â— 1 Pet. 2. 9. 1 Joh. 1. 7. 2 Joh. v. 10 11. Revel 2. 14 15 20. Chap 18. 4. and 19. 20. A remarkable Passage in the Vindication-Booke ANd if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach against that Catalogue of scandalous sins and sinners they have presented to the Parliament and the Parliament prescribe severe Temporall Lawes and Punishments against them and appoint good Civill Magistrates to see them duly executed inflicted I am confident that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one halfe yeare then all the Church-Discipline and Censures now so eagerly contested for will do in an Age and will be the only true way and speediest course to reforme both Church and State at once which I hope the Parliament will consider of and take care that our Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing but Preaching and Instructing which is worke enough wholly to engrosse their time and thoughts FINIS LEt this Way of Peace and Reconciler among Brethren intituled The Smoke in the Temple more then ordinarily usefull in these times be printed Imprimatur IOHN BACHILER The Smoke in the Temple WHEREIN IS A DESIGNE FOR PEACE RECONCILIATION of Beleevers of the severall OPINIONS of these Times about ORDINANCES to a Forbearance of each other in Love and Meeknesse and Humility With the opening of each Opinion and upon what SCRIPTURES each is grounded With the severall EXCEPTIONS which may be made against each Opinion from the SCRIPTURES With one Argument for Liberty of Conscience from the NATIONALL CONVENANT With another Argument to prove the Gospell or New Testament of Iesus Christ the very Word of God Tendred to all the Beleeuers to shew them how little we have attained and there is a more glorious Fulnesse to be revealed With a Discovery of the Antichristian way of Peace c. for Opinions With a full Answer to Master LEY One of the Assembly of Divines against my late New Quaere With some spirituall Principles drawn forth of the Controversie Rev. 15. 8. And the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power and and no man was able to enter into the Temple till the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled By Iohn Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell at Brasteed in KENT THE THIRD EDITION Printed for Giles Calvert at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-End of S. PAULS 1646. To the Right Honourable the Lord Vicount SAY and SEALE and Lieutenant Generall CROMWEL Noble Patriots IF I mistake not you may here single out somthing of the Lords from what is mine and discerne some beames of God amongst many things of man I know the candle of the Lord cannot shine any where with more snuff then in me however since the Lord hath lighted it I dare not but let it shine or rather glimmer before men I have writ your Names to my Book that I may be one of your Remembrancers amongst the rest to the advancement of Truth not but they who know ye know ye to be acted by a Spirit of Truth in your selves The Lord remember ye according to all the good ye have done in your severall Ministrations to this people and do that for ye which gives you most and yet takes most from ye even filling ye with himself till he hath emptied ye of all but his own glory and gathered ye up into the fulnesse and righteousnesse of himselfe in Christ where we are only nothing in our selves and every thing in him and surely the most and best and greatest thing he can do for the sons of men is thus to make them nothing in their own account that he that glorieth may glory in the Lord. I may seeme strange to wish ye thus but I know it is not strange to ye who know the Mystery of the Spirit and of Christ My Lord and Sir Go on still yet still laying your designes in a glory above that of States and Kingdomes and involving all your Counsels there where there is most of Heaven and least of the world So praies Your Servant in the Lord IOHN SALTMARSH To the Beleevers of severall Opinions for outward Ordinances or dispensations scandalously called Independents Presbyterians Anabaptists Seekers Brethren I Have fairly set down how far each of you have attained in the Mystery of Truth and surely we are all short of the glory which shall be revealed in the Temple or Church of God and there are such clouds rolling about each opinion that may darken it or something of it So as things are not so cleare as they are commonly taken by each of us If any man think he knoweth anything he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know So as the common ignorance and infirmity amongst us may be a rise for a common Vnity amongst us and seeing we all come out of Babylon though in several waies to the glorious Temple or Tabernacle which God hath sent down to be with men and walk thus diversly thither yet our severall and distinct goings are but like so many Travellers to the City of London some travell from the North some from the South and from the West some from the East yet all thither though too there may be some mistaking of the way in each because of the little light that is abroad The gathering of the Saints into the Heaven or Kingdom below in this day of Revelation is like the gathering at the last day which shall be all into one glorious Body though the gathering shall be from the four winds or ends of the Earth by the severall Trumpets or Angels One thing I have more Let us seek for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to open to us the Mystery of the Scriptures called The Revelation for in that Book is the Prophecie of the Churches laid up and the seasons and times for Truth revealed Let us search and seek out by the Spirit of Iesus even that Iesus which was in the Vision and gave it out to Iohn for there is none found worthy to open the Book with Seals but the Lambe Surely in the Mystery of Angels Vials Sea of glasse with fire Temple with Smoke the Angell with the everlasting Gospell the Angell enlightning the Earth the Whore in skarlet and pretious pearles the Cup of abomination the Beast like a Lamb the Image of the Beast the Horus and Kings of the Earth the marke in the forehead and in the right hand the buying and selling the Tabernacle of God with men the first and second Resurrection the Ihronâ— of God the pure Chrystall River of water the Holy Ierusalem descending from God c. In these is much of the glory wrapped up and from these shall the Truth we contend for appeare to our further enlightning Yet one thing more We that are thus contenders for Ordinances for the Temple and the Vessels in it let us
take heed we forget not him who is greater then the Temple for one greater then the Temple is here It would be spiritually considered that while we strive for the Vessels and Cups we spill not the Wine And it ought to be so carried by all of us that because we are so much in opinion we may not be thought to place Religion there as I feare too many do making a Christ of the very Ordinance of Christ and pressing some outward Ordinances of the Gospell so legally as some hearing such a power of Salvation put into them and finding an outward dispensation more easily got then the spirituall make haste thither only and then sit down as saved under a meere outward Ordinance The Lord grant that we may neither undervalue an Ordinance nor the least Institution of Iesus Christ nor raise it up into a Iesus Christ and set up the Law above or beside the Law-giver We must now learne to know Iesus Christ lesse after the flesh and not to embody salvation in a meer outward dispensation and so incarnate Iesus Christ over again from the glory and spirituality he is in Brethren farewell For my part I am fully assured from Scriptures of the Church of Christ here or Gospell-fellowship of the Saints and unto this fellowship with the Father and the Son I endeavour and I have one way to reveale Truth to me which I cannot conceale nor yet cannot practice as I would and that is this To see Truth by living in the power of Truth and by first obtaning Jesus Christ to live in us in the power of his suffering death and Resurrection for surely Jesus Christ must do all though more gloriously and spiritually over again in his which he did in himselfe If Jesus Christ the Light be in us the light by which every outward dispensation is seen will flow in for where the Sun is there will be every beame with it THE CONTENTS A way of Peace or a Designe for Reconciliation 1 GOds Love the first and last glorious Vâ—ion to be considered to draw us to Vnity Page 1 2 Names of Sect and Division to be laid down p. 2 3 Passions and Railings forborn Ibid. 4 Reviling each other for infirmities forborn Ib. 5 The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause Ib. 6 Liberty for Printing and Speaking Ibid. 7 Let all subscribe their names to what they Print Ibid. 8 Let all be severally accountable pag. 3 9 Free Debates and open conferences Ibid. 10 Let us call Beleevers though of severall Opinions if the name of Brethren cannot be justly allowed Ib. 11 No Beleevers to esteem too highly of themselves for what they attain to Ibid. 12 No assuming infallibility over each other p. 4 13 No civill power drawn into advantages Ib. 14 Tendernesse in offending each other in things of an outward nature Ibid. 15 Severall Opinions from the Gospels first discovery yet all beleevers p. 5 16 No despising for too much Learning or too little Ibid. 17 We be one in Christ though divers Ibid. 18 The Spirituall Persecution to be forborn Ib. The Unwarrantable Way of Peace or the Antichristian Design for Reconciliation TO beleeve as the Church or Councils p. 6 â—o set up oâ—e as the Pope for Infallibility Ib. To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes p. 7 To forbid Interpretings and Disputes Ibid. By a compuâ—sive power Ibid. The Opinions of these times â— Resbytery so called what it is and what they hold p. 8 â—ceptions against Presbytery p. 9. â— dependency so called what it is and what they hold Ibid. â—ceptions against Independency p. 10 â—abapâ—isme so called what it is and what they hold p. 12 Exceptions against the grounds of the new Baptism Ibid. Seeking or Seekers so called what their Way is and what they hold p. 16 Exceptions against them Ibid. Conclusion p. 19 The Gospell or New Testament proved undeniably to be the very Word of God p. 20 One Argument from the Nationall Covenant Art 1 and 2. for Liberty of Conscience p. 23 Objections against it answered p. 25 26 Spirituall Principles drawn forth of the Controversie GOspell-truth one and the same p. 60 Prudence and Consequences are the great Engines of Will-worship Ibid. The People are Brethren and Saints in Christs Church but in Antichrists Parishioners and servants p. 61 Presbytery it self is founded on Principles of Separation which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churchesâ—ay is the greatest Separation p. 62 None to be forced under Christs Kingdom as in the Kingdomes of the world Ibid. The power of a formall Reformation in a Government makes it not Christs Government p. 63 The visible Church or Communion is the Image of the invisible or mysticall p. 64 How Christ is a King of the Nations and of the Church and how an Head Ibid. The Presbyteriall Government and the Worlds of the same equall Dominion p. 65 The Nationall and Congregationall Church-covenant both lawfull or both unlawfull Ibid. We receive and give out Truth by parts p. 66 All Coveâ—anâ—ers are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State p. 67 We are to try Truth and so receive it in its degrees p. 67 No Church-way Independency p. 68 A spirit of Love and Meeknes becomes Beleevers Ib. When a State-conscience is fully pâ—rswaded doubtfull and so sinning Ibid. A Post-script with Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyteriall way p. 69 A WAY OF PEACE OR A Designe of Reconciliation How the Beleevers of severall Opinions scandalously called Presbyterians Independents Anabaptists Seekers may be reconciled to forbeare one another 1 Gods love the first and last glorious Vnion to be considered to draw us to Vnity ONe way is to consider love as it is in God and flowing from him upon the creature God is love and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him Now the more love there is in any the more of God there is in any Satan the first fountaine of sin made the first Schisme in the glorious Communion All was one and in one glory till the first division and till Satan fell like lightening and he envying the whole Creation which was in love with it self and him that made it drew it into sin and antipathies and mutuall persecutions and when it began to leave loving him that was pure and infinite love it began to hate it self and divide from it self So as the lesse love the more of Satan and sin The consideration of Gods love to himself which is infinite of his love to his which is no lesse infinite because to sinners and of his Sons love spiritually uniting himself here and gloriously hereafter into one Body and Communion cannot but make us love one another 2 Names of Sects and Division to be laid down Let all names and notes of distinction taken up by way of scandall and reproach be laid down and forborn names and notions are like Standards
him and walked with and counted as his Some beleeved not the Holy-Ghost nor Christs Baptism and were zealous of the Law and yet the Disciples counted them as Beleevers Johns Disciples would have followed Iohn only but Iohn sent two of them to Christ at one time and told them againe he must increase but himselfe must decrease Christ in his time would not forbid any that went about in his Name There is none that doth any thing in my Name can lightly speak evill of me When the Spirit was given the Disciples bore one another out of the Church as the Beleevers of Iohns Baptisme and the zealots of the Law and one another in the Church they that did eat them that did not eat and they that regarded a day them that regarded not a day walking together as far as they attained by the same rule 16 No despising for too much learning or too little Let not one despise another for gifts parts learning let the Spirit be heard speak in the meanest let not the Scribe or Disputer of the Law despise the Fishermen nor they despise them because Scribes and Disputers The Spirit is in Paul as well as Peter in both as well as one 17 We may be in one Christ though divers Consider that we may be one in one Christ though we thinke diversly and we may be Friends though not Brethren and let us attaine to Vnion though not to Unity 18 The spirituall Persecution to be forborne Consider there is a twofold Persecution There is a spirituall or that of Beleevers and a mixt Persecution or civilly Ecclesiasticall The spirituall Persecution is that of the Spirit meerly and this kind of Persecution little thought on and studied this is when we cannot be are one anothers severall Opinions or soul-belief in the same spirituall Society or fellowship but they must either be of us or out of us and surely this kinde of Persecution is as unreasonable as any other for what is this but soul-compulsion when another must only beleeve as we beleeve and not wait till the Lord reveale even this This kind of spirituall compulsion will in time breake and dissolve the visible Communion of Saints and Body of Christ exceedingly if taken up or continued and it will be amongst Christians as amongst the Antichristians where they divide and subdivide and some cast themselves into a Monkery from all the rest Ierusalem and Antioch were not of this way to cast out one another upon such grounds but to meet reason and counsell and heare And surely the Churches can ill complaine of a mixt persecution from without if they persecute one another from within the Magistrate may as justly whip them both as they whip one another Such grudgings complainings dissolvings spirituall inforcings gives hint to the Civill power to compell while it beholds them but a little more spiritually coâ—pâ—lling one another Let all Church-rights priviledges boundaries be preserved all Heresie and Schism by the rule rebuked but in all spirituall meeknesse and wisdome and not call Heretick and Schismatick too suddenly since we see but in part THE UNWARRANTABLE WAY OF PEACE Or The Antichristian Designe of Reconciliation 1 To beleeve as the Church or Councels THat all should beleeve as the Church beleeves and this Church is the great Councels of Bishops Cardinals c as if the souls of all were to be saved only in the bundle of theirs as if they could beleeve both enough for themselves and all others 2 To set up one as the Pope for infallibilitie Because there may be difference amongst many and all may not agree therefore there shall be one say they with the Vrim and Thummim one infallibly decreeing and interpreting and unerring to whom the Spirit of Truth is successively derived and his determinations interpretations shall be finall conclusive and this that Vicar of Christ the Pope this one way in the Antichristian State and all Reformed Kingdomes were once under this Peace 3 To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes Because there be severall Beleevers and severall interpretations and opinions one saying This is the way and another That therefore say some All in all wayes may be saved every one beleeving every thing Now this is one way to make peace but not the way there is but one Lord one Faith one Baptisme 4 To forbid Interpretings and Disputes Because several opinions arise by interpretings and disputings about Scripture therefore all openings of the Word all disputings must be forborne Because the Sun-shine offends some weak sight in the house shut up doores and windowes and make all dark Thus the Papists and Prelats in forbidding Scriptures and Marginall Notes and thus fearing there may be somthing false they will heare nothing that 's true 5 By a compulsive power Some take the Civill power in to make peace reckoning a compulsive Vniformitie for Vnity Peace and Truth This is one way to deale with the body indeed but not with the soul to mind the outward man but not the inward This way of Civilly Ecclesiasticall peace is the Antichristian designe who having got the Kings of the Nations to give their strength and power and Kingdome unto them supplies that from the world which they want from the Word making the spirituall power of Iesus Christ to receive its honour life efficacie power from the power of men This way of peace is such as hath by experience troubled Nations and troubled it self at length too and broken it self against that way which it aimed to breake For whosoever fals upon this stone shall be broken and on whomsoever it shall fall it shall breake them to powder THE OPINIONS OF THESE TIMES With the Exceptions each Opinion may be charged withall being the great Argument for Love Meeknesse and Forbearance one to another or of Peace and Reconciliation till the Lord reveale more Presbyterie So called What it is and what they hold THe Presbyterie is set up by an alleadged Patern of the Eldership and Presbyterie of the Apostles and Elders in the first Churches of the Gospell strengthened by such Scriptures as are in the margin and by allusion to the Jewish Government and to appeals in Nature Their Churches are Parochial or Parishes as they are divided at first by the Romish Prelates and the Statute-Laws of the State Which Parishes and Congregations are made up of such Beleevers as were made Christians first by Baptisme in Infancie and not by the Word And all the Parishes or Congregations are under them as they are a Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Presbyterie And over those Parishes they doe exercise all Church-power and Government ‖ which may be called The power of the Keyes Exceptions 1. THe Apostolicall and Primitive Eldership were not so authoritative over their Congregations as these pretend nor so compulsive or forcing their respective Congregations 2. The Apostolicall Eldership and Presbyterie were more ‖ infallible
remain unsatisfied they are not to be put upon his Dilemma of sin or misery or to be ruled with the rod but meeknesse 2 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Because the ignorance of the people generally which he would have for a reason to suspend it ought to be rather a reason for expedition that they may practically know it for while it is unknown it is slandered which might have been more amiable Because his two Texts make not only against the suspending for a time but for ever I wish he would preach such Texts as these to his people â— Thes 5. 12 13. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 17. Reply To your first It belongs not to the people c. It seems then the people must be kept out from all intermedling But I would have the people mark well what kind of Government that is that sits upon the waters or people I am sure Christ's Government takes in the people and being once in a Church-way they lose their old capacity for a new and are raised up from People to Brethren Act. 15. It is a worthy saying of Master Goodwyn and Master Nye That the Clergie got the golden ball of Government amongst them and I censure it is not much mended in the Presbytery But you say The people must be instructed that is they must only know that they must obey But they are called and consulted with and owned as the Scripture holds forth where ever there is any Church spoken of But what though instructed They are only to be instructed and taught that this is the Government to which they must submit So the people under Popery Prelacy c. were instructed with that limitation and restriction But shall they be thus instructed and taught in it People here is a Government which to some of us seemeth to be a Government according to the Word take it and examine it if you be so perswaded and that the Word holds it forth clearly embrace it if not do not obey anything in blind and implicite obedience This were faire dealing with Conscience thus the Churches of Christ had their Government among them To that of the peoples compliancy you speak on it is not my work here to dispute the Interests of Elders and People distinctly but to make answer that the complyancy and submission which are the duties you set out for the people are such as they may easily see the Interest you allow them viz. an Interest of compliance only and submission or obedience to what is done already not any liberty to examine and refuse And when people are instructed still your work remaines to prove your Presbytery over Congregations or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church which may upon the Presbytery more justly be recriminated then where you do so often recriminate upon gathered Churches And me thinks to me it is unreasonable to taxe any for church-gathering when your very Presbytery is maintained by such a kind of principle What is your Classicall your Provinciall your Nationall Presbytery but a Church gathered out of the rest call it a virtuall or representative or what you please For that of Meeknesse how meek it will prove and how meekly they shall be dealt with under it we are not to judge by any promises of Meeknesse but by Principles Are the Principles such as naturally bring forth Meeknesse or rather such as invest the Ministers and Elders with a power supreame and of dominion But what if such as your self and some other godly meek of your Way may propound nothing but waies of meeknesse to your selves Can you undertake to secure the people for hereafter and for all of the Way and for the Way in its own nature There are things of meek appearances as the Presbytery may be yet prove not so The Lamb in the Revelation had two horns though a Lamb. Hazael could say Am I a dog that thou shouldest think so harshly of me that I should kill the children in the womb 2 King 8 He as little suspected his own cruelty which the Prophet foresaw in his nature would come to passe as you do in your Presbytery which some seeing into the nature of it cannot but prophesie accordingly You know Episcopacy began in meeknesse and Bishops were brought in first for good and for Peace But how proved they Tyranny had ever a countenance of Meeknesse and Love till it got seated in the Throne So Absolon was very faire spoken in the Gate but how was he in the Throne For that of my Dilemma of sin and misery which you say people shall not be put upon it may be some in your or another Classis may find more meeknesse a spirit of more love and ingenuity But what is this to the nature of the Government that some in it are well natured And for that of sin and misery surely if the Presbytery be set on with power many a one will be in that snare partly in feare and partly in an easie complyancy For there are whole Parishes and Counties of this constitution And you your self say The wilfully weak must have the rod. And who will this be Such as are so in the judgement and interpretation of the Classis or how I would this were well cleared And for your Scriptures of 1 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Shall I come to you with a rod c. and in meeknesse instructing c. These are full Scriptures for ordering any Church government These are good Laws but then men must be rightly in Commission for ruling by them and people rightly ordered and disposed for such rules as in all other Laws and Kingdoms But what is this to your purpose till your Government appeare to be all Christs To that of the ignorance of the people which you would have for a reason of expedition rather then susponsion that they may practically know it I answer In practicall godlinesse the Scripture-way is not so Things must first be known before practically known or else the obedience can be but mixt blind and Popish Who can practically obey taking practically in a Scripture-sense that is with knowledge till they know and be perswaded Indeed in things civill c or morall practice may bring in knowledge habits may be acquiâ—ed and gotten by Acts a man may grow temperate by practising temperance and civilly obedient practising civill obedience But it is not so in Spirituals there habits go before acts spirituall infusions before practices And for the amiablenesse of it look into other Reformed Kingdoms and see what power of godlinesse is there by reason of it Do we not see the huge bodies of Nations very sinfull corrupt formall For Scotland our Brethrens preaching and watchfulnesse it may be more powerfull in a Reformation upon them then their Government And further I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforme the outward man So may a meer prudentiall Government a meer civill Government if
Because the Discipline is an hedge or wall about the Doctrine a goad to the Means of Grace a curb to licentious courses though with many it go but to the outward man that is not to be imputed to the Discipline but their corruptions c. 4. Because where the Discipline hath been rightly chosen and setled God hath blessed it with better fruits as in Scotland where there is no Heresie nor Schism c. 5. For that of Elihu in Job Why do not daies speak c. it makes not for his purpose but that Wisdom is with the ancient and gray-headed to be heard before young or green-headed Counsellors c. Reply To your first That the fault was in the choyce of a wrong Government c. I answer That is the feare now least there should be a choyce of a wrong Government and so the same fault should be committed again And this very Government hath no Image of Divine Right upon it nor hath it warrant in all things from the Word as your self acknowledge To your second That Doctrine and Discipline go together c. Yea pure Doctrine and pure Discipline go rightly together and if either be impure or unsound there is so much the more danger So as this is an Argument rather against you because where Doctrine opens the conscience and lets in any thing of Discipline but that of the pure Word there is one evill only mended with another And for your instance of a Schoolmaster who both teaches and corrects You know we are not to prove but to illustrate by similitudes And that of a Schoolmaster is a fitter illustration for the Pedagogie of the Law and that Discipline then the Gospels You know the Apostle uses it only to that The Law was our Schoolmaster c. Gal. 3. To that of your description of the Government that it is a curb a goad c. I answer There is nothing you say of Government in these words but may be said of any civill Government nay of Prelacy when it was in its primitive form But that only which you ought to say and that which only differences it from all devised forms of men as your Covenant binds you and ought to be your only reason for erecting and setting it up is this Is it the Scriptures form or model Is the people so in the exercise and capacity of it as in the Gospell times If so then you prove something And further All this you say is true in a kind too of Christs Government but yet in some sort communicable with devised Governments The only distinguishing and essentiall marks are not to be a curb and goad but the Scriptures only mark and image and some spirituall operations c. which no other devised form of man hath To your other of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland that there is no Heresie nor Schism there Let Master Coleman our learned and pious Brother speak for us both from his experiences And for that Kingdom time will shew whether it will prove to be a blessing or no to want that which you call Heresie or Schism Surely to be free from Heresie and Schism in a Scripture sense it is such a blessing as the whole Gospell cannot patern What No Heresie in a whole Kingdom No Schism in a whole Kingdom Never such a pure Church heard on Corinth Ephesus Colosse Jerusalem Antioch all not comparable The worst I wish our Brethren there is that all were so pure as we heare on Indeed Scotland had the honour to awaken us first in the work of Reformation and Liberty but lest Scotland should be puffed up England shall have the glory I hope to improve that liberty to a fuller light which some would close up too soon in the narrownesse of a Presbytery Methinks there is something of this nature considerable in the Lutherans who though they follow the first Light in Germany yet the Lord hath suffered them to stick there without a fuller Reformation that the first may be last and the last be first For if a State be covenanted so close to the Word they had need be favourable and free to all that are accordingly covenanted for each mans conscience is the Interpreter in himself of what makes for or against the Covenant he takes and by this very Covenant you are all to be tender to consciences because the Spirit of God not power of men can intterpret the Will of God but in their civill and prudentiall things only they may interpret themselves To that of Job That with the ancient is wisdom and with the gray-headed which you apply in way of reproach to the younger whom you call as it were green-heads I answer That the elder I esteem as fathers and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speaks more gloriously as he himselfe saith Your young men shall see visions and upon your sons and daughters I will powre out my Spirit your old men shall dream dreams Now whether is it more excellent to dream dreams or to see visions The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation then to the elder that dream dreams of it only Master Ley's Resolution pag. 15 16. There is great disproportion of times Men were then converted from Paganism and while they were so they were uncapable Our Congregations in England are professed Christians and though there be many not so wrought on by the Word c. That is rather a reason for the establishment of it Ezek. 22. 26 1 Cor. 4. 21. Prov. 23. 13 14. Nor can Sabbath nor Sacraments be administred without it Reply To that of the disproportion you speak on of times and conversion c. I answer The Apostle's and Primitive times are the times we are to looke at for a patern and modell 'T is true there is great disproportion for they were Apostles who gave the government then yet are but private Divines as you say by me if you be compared with them For that of the conversion from Paganism to Christianity There is no such disproportion there neither but that very proportion which our Saviour hath himself foretold and set forth For how doth a Iewish and Antichristian State differ Nay how doth a Heathenish or Paganish State differ from an Antichristian or Parochiall State as Parochiall or Parish is in that notion Christ hath put them that are out of the Church under that very notion Matth. 19. 17. and the spirit in the Revelation makes the Antichristian State to be as unlawfull as a Paganish and cals out equally from that as from the other as by comparing 2 Cor. 6. 17. Rev. 18. 4. together will appeare So as speaking of things and notions I cannot but speake in a Scripture way nor am I uncharitable in this neither though I thus speak I looke on thousands in this State as godly beleevers It is not the
Pastors I write against but the way There may be a Moses in Pharaohs Court a Ioseph in Poâ—phar's house a Cornelius or devout man though out of the Church a Luther even in Rome till the Lord enlighten So as government and discipline is a Churches right and priviledge not the worlds and Nations priviledges as so and then Where are all your quoted Texts which are applied Surely that of Corinth is the Churches and that of Ezekiel and Proverbs makes not for the discipline of a Church at all Master Ley's Resolution Page 16 17. He makes a comparison betwixt materiall and spirituall buildings as stone and timber should not be clapt together in the one soone in the other 1. Similitudes may illustrate but not prove any thing 2. Conformity betwixt materiall and spirituall things is not to be carried too far 3. In materiall buildings or the Temple there is not only squared stones but peeces and rubbish which have their use not so in the spirituall all things there are homogeneall and square and living stones c. 4. Those that he accounts rough and unsquared are in some conformity though not so polished as others 5. The best stones are not to be taken from the rest to make up a building by themselves as in seperated Congregations 6. Let him shew any such example in the New Testament where when there was a mixture of holy and prophane as in Corinth i Cor. 11. 21. the Apostles gathered out the holy part 7. That of Axes and Hammers hath a mysterious truth in it but not to his purpose viz. That the spirituall building is built of the soft and secret whispers and motions of the spirit Reply To that of the similitudes I fully agree with you they illustrate better then they prove To that of not carrying a conformity betwixt materials and spirituals too high I agree with you in that too yet not so fully for Iesus Christ the great Prophet of the Gospell preached the glory of the Kingdome in materiall comparisons in salt water leven mustard-seed sowers husbandmen vines vineyards c. To that of spirituall buildings which you say are to be made up only of squared living stones I agree with you and here the controversie might be ended If your Temples shall be of living stones the controversie is granted But because I will not seem to mistake you I beleeve the spirituall building you mean and I are not the same here You mean as it appears the invisible spirituall or Church mysticall and yet there all is not so Homogeneall and of the same kind neither The head of the body is both God and man and one member like one star differs from another in glory But we are speaking of the spirituall building or Church here which is the Image of the Church above and as that is of true reall essentially spirituall living stones so the Church below is to consist at least of such as visibly and formally appeare so and therefore the Apostle cals them in his Epistles Saints and called to be Saints And to that of your peeces of Rubbish in the materiall building It is true But what is that to Salomons Temple which my comparison drives up to How much Rubbish can you prove in that type nay square stones pure Cedar gold c. to figure out the Gospell-building or Temple as in Heb. 9. So as your rubbish is only in your owne allusion not in mine To that of your unpolished stones in your Parishes which may fit the Temple now I answer It must be then only such a building as the materiall one you speake on which is made up of rubbish and broken peeces and if that be according to Christs patern let these Scriptures in the margin with many more determine And for their submitting indeed there is a nationall blinde traditionall obedience in them I cannot call it Gospell submission To that of the best stones not to be taken out to make up a building I answer I am sure we are to take in no ill unhewne unpolished and the Scripture cautions and practise are cleare c. then judge you what the stones must be Nor doe we so picke and chuse as if all stones were to be square alike or equally polished that is not in any materiall building Though we would take in no rubbish yet we take in stores differently squared As in the body one member differs from another the eye and hand and foot c. and members lesse honourable 1 Cor. 12. so in the body of the Church every one according to his measure and as every one hath received Nor do we stand so for the first polishing as you pretend You make as if we set up such degrees of perfection as were only the degrees of the invisible or mysticall body when it is meerly in the degrees of visible Gospell-perfection By this you would make the carnall to abhor and the weaker to stumble and be offended as if the doore of our Churches were not open for any such whom you imply were of a temper meerly Spirituall and of a size of our owne not the Scriptures Let the doores of our Churches be as strait as you imply I am sure your doors are set open or rather cast off the hinges but a pure Gospel-entrance is neither too wide nor too narrow We know there is smoaking flax and bruised reeds measures of grace If they can willingly submit to Iesus Christ their Law-giver and walk as members of the body here they may receive polishing and have honour and building up and many other degrees of perfection which the Saints of God obtaine when they are in fellowship with the Father and the Son To that of your challenge that I should shew any such example in the New â—â—stament of taking out the best when there was a mixture of holy and prophane I answer Those were Gospel-Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel-fellowship and when you make your Parishes to appeare such Churches then I shall tell you more till then I suspend your challenge The world and an Antichristian Nation are both under Christs fan for gathering them out To that of a mysterious truth you speak on in the Axes and Hammers I agree with you in that and because of the mystery I therefore quoted it And whereas you summe up all the mystery into the soft whisperings and motions of the Spirit you can hardly warrant us or secure us that your interpretation is the whole mind of the Spirit and that very interpretation of yours is part of it the very same I aime at viz. to shew how the Gospel-building is softly gathered and made up by the Ministery of the Word and Spirit and not with Axes and Hammers tools of a compulsive forcing sharp and authoritative nature as c. Master Ley's Resolution Page 17 18 19. For that of his c. whore he makes Christs description of himself c. to be against the establishment
saith Absolon If I were a King it should not be thus But what is a qualified Government that is not Christs I can never hope to gather grapes of thornes or figs of thistles Sure it can never be well for for the Trees of the Forrest when the Bramble will reigne Master Ley's Resolution Page 33. There are many of note who affirme the best way to suppresse the multiplicity of Sects is to let them have scope and they will run themselves out of breath but I cannot give my Vote false teachers are not to be tolerated no not for an hour Gal. 2. 5. Reply I would there were more such of that minde I am sure it is safest and soundest It is safest there is no such danger in that of crucifying Christ in ignorance of fighting against God And soundest for so they die out most naturally by their owne unsoundnesse without noise and commotion Sometimes the cure makes the greater disease when the cure is not naturall but violent For that of Pauls withstanding Peter to the face I allow you all such Gospel-wayes of contention so you only withstand them to the face and doe not as the High-Priest did command them to be smitten on the face Oppose with words as Paul did but not with swords taking and turning the Edge of Authority against us Master Ley's Resolution Page 33. We experience saith be But where roads this Writer this phrase Reply You criticise on words I cannot take time to do so I wonder you an Assembly-man have leisure for that this is logomac ice or word-fighting and why not We experience You know our times have found out such ways of elegancy in the English though I thought not any such thing when I wrote But why doe I triffle too To your matter Master Ley's Resolution Page 33. But it appeareth by his c. Whether it be safe to commit the power c. That to commit any power or establish any government especially the Presbyteriall is too soon or suddenly done if done at all Reply Yea and it is not too suddenly if done at all and not done as it ought or in Christs way I am for any thing of Christs when and where and how soone you will Master Ley's Resolution Page 34. We may say as he Some may be like the ten yet others like the two Brethren For two ambitious Presbyterians there may be ten more modest Reply But how come you by such plenty of the better sort It is not thought by most of your way I am sure some of your way were taking care how to furnish their Presbytery their 10000 Parishes And this I know that if there were such plenty Why doe you make shift with so many of the Episcopall stamp who keep their Parishes and resolve while they live to try out all turns of government rather then turne off a tythe of two hundred per annum But I beleeve the English Presbytery and Prelacy are well agreed in that Master Ley's Resolution Page 34. Besides the Presbyteriall government is framed directly according to the Resolution of our Saviour Reply Not so directly neither It is rather directly according to the prudentiall designe of your Assembly as you say so as all yet is but So you say and we say the contrary there is You say and We say Authority not Scripture and evidence carries it on your side And let the Reader judge bet wixt us Indeed you are able to prove by the Magistrate that your Presbytery is some of it Christs way That is an Argument of power not of Scripture Master Ley's Resolution Page 34 35 36. To that he saith The Controversie is hottest about government c. It may be so without fault in those that are for it but not without crime in those that oppose it To that of his Is it good parting with the stakes The Question presupposeth evennesse betwixt parties whereas the difference is betwixt government and no government The high Court of Parliament and all the Orthodox Churches c. on the one side and a small inconsiderable party on the other Nor is it so much injury to resolve for government against them as the Bishops who had possession of Prelacy by a prescription legally c. To that of his It is to be feared there is too much of man It is likewise to be in those who despise government c. And if the Bias run most to this truth of government as he saith it is but as it should be The Bishops government being put downe it is necessary some other should be set up and before all the Presbyteriall And if as he saith some other truths are wholly set by it may be the fault of those who set themselves too much against government I am sure not in such as are for the Presbytery And for his caution as he concludes with I wish he had had more caution in his minde and his paper he had had few faults and a shorter refutation would have served Reply You say The Controversie may be hottest yet no fault in those that are for it but against it But is all the heate in those that oppose it Nay sure Witnesse the importunity the petitioning of your party c. we silent all the time You say The difference is not so equall but betwixt government and no government Parliament and all Orthodox Divines against an inconsiderable party Indeed it is unequall It is betwixt a government of man of Prudence as you confesse and a Scripture government betwixt an huge Nationall Government and Christs little flocke or Church Nor is it a Controversie with the High Court of Parliament we contend not with them but humbly petition and represent the truth unto them but this is the old way to winde in under the wing of Authority and to engage them But they are wise to discern and not to be engaged as their Predecessors were by the Church-men as they called them there are too many sad stories But what of our inconsiderable party We had rather be a few with truth then a multitude against it And how inconsiderable soever we are in number the stone cut out without hands may fill the earth the Kingdome of Christ and the worlds are not so one as you would make them Unus homo totius orbis impetum fustinuit It was said of Euther He was but one against a world Your non-conformists were but inconsiderable to the Kingdom of Prelacy almost A pebble in the band of David may do more then a mighty speare in the hand of Goliah You say The Bishops had a better prescription even by Law for their government then we But how is this Is a legall prescription better hold then a Gospell prescription Is it more priviledge to be founded upon a Statute or Act of Parliament then Scripture You say If too much of man be in this Controversie it is in those that oppose and despise Government But what is that to our Controversie
them I had not ventured so far in my Quaere I considered the sad and farall troubles which attended the Magistrates ingagements with the Ministers the bloud which hath been powred out by Nationall compulsion of tender conscâ—eâ—ces and like a spirituall Watchman I could not but blow my Trumpet and give warning And for my comparison or Papists and Prelates I appeal to the world if there be any reproach whether it be not in the Interpreter rather then in the Author But I know no such thing by my Paper And if it be lawfull to draw in consequent conclusions and then father them I could prove you to speake Treason Blasphemy Idolatry Atheisme Heresie nay Independencie which some of your Way thinke worse Aâ—abaptisme Separation which would seeme to be as hatefull to you But I judge you not in any such sort nor had I spoken so far now but in a just Vindication You say You will conclude with my Politicks and upon such Principles as mine Church-government is ordained I have told you my Politicks were written by my dimmer light And if your Government be built upon no better Principles then mine I cannot but be out of conceit with that Government being so far out of conceit with mine own Principles and it makes me think the worse of it because my former Principles fit it so well Those Principles you speak on are partly of Câ—vill power and the Sword and the Dominion or Scepter in the Gospell is more Spirituall You say of my Text in the Revelation Revel 18 1. that as I began so I end with misapplication of Scripture Misapplication is a word sooner writ then proved and my reasons were rather crowded then ordered in my Paper The Scripture was this For the Angell that came down from Heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory Which Scripture there applyed doth hint to any that will not rather cavill then interpret that my only reason for delay of Government was in this An Angell was yet to come with power and glory or the Gospell would fill the earth with more light â—o as we should not shut up our selves too soon in the dark And now Reader judge whether it be my mis-application or his misinterpretation Spirituall Principles drawn forth Gospell-Truth is one and the same THat which is only in some parts of it warrantable by the Word is not purely nor in a Scripture-way warrantable For there is not any Will-worship but it hath something from the Patern of the true The Samaritan-worship was coppied after the Jewish and the Jewish when Christ came had Priests and Temple and Sacrifices and was copied by the Law But then there was Traditions and Commandements of men That is pure Gentilism which hath no Image of Gospell nor lâ—gall Truth Antichrist sits in the very Temple of God though rather upon it False Christs call themselves Christs as well as the true The great Image had a head of Gold though feet of Iron and Clay Every Heresie hath a Scripture Word in it But Truth must be all one and the same and Homogeneall not in parts so but all so There is but one Lord one Faith c. Prudence and Consequences are the great Engines of Will-worship THings of Prudence meerly are not to be admitted into the Spirituallway and Gospell-designe Prelacy had its Prudence for every new additionall in Worship and Government And once let Prudence open a doore and then will more of man crowd in then the 〈…〉 of God can keep out Nor is that to be admitted which is so received a Maxime Though not directly yet not repugnant to the Word Christs rule is not such he opposes any Tradition to the Commandements of God Not direct from Scripture is indirect and repugnant though not to the very letter of such words yet to the form and Analogie of truth to the generall Scripture-Law viz. the will of God that nothing shall be added or diminished ye are only my friends saith Christ if ye do what I command you and the Lord will raise you up a Prophet him shall yee heare For if any thing of Prudence is to be let in then something of Tradition for Prudence can make nothing higher noâ— purer nor better mâ—n can but give his own Image to the things â—e makes himself though he make them up of divine materials from Scriptures yet the form none but the Lord himself can give and the form is that which stamps Christs Image upon every Truth Every thing in the Word hath a form that is it is â—uch a thing of truth and not another Nothing but Gods power and will can make a thing Truth his power creates it and his will creates it such a Truth Nothing is agreeable to the Will of Christ but the very Will of Christ The Will of Christ is the only Legislative power in the Gospell Nothing is agreeable to his Will but what he wils every thing is repugnant to his will but what he wils so as this will is the supreme general law indeed the very form or essence of Scripture the Word of God And whatsoever is devised by Prudence though upon Scripture-materials yet being not the work of this will nor having the Stamp or Image upon it is none of Christs but as repugnant as any other Tradition or invention of men And here let us look to that new though old design against Truth the most subtill undiscernable and divinest kind of Will-worship in the world that which some call Scripture-consequence an unwholsome word as it hath been used for under colour of consequence what Conclusions may be promoted What may not Reason draw from Scripture and what may it not fashion like a Truth But consider in Parliament Laws or Ordinances or Commissions is it lawfull to take them and from every part of them to draw out results of our own and when there is but one Law make many subordinate Laws of our own and frame Laws out of Laws and Ordinances out of Ordinances and Commissions out of Commissions No sure But we must keep to that one generall entire litterall Law and Will of the Parliament Is it thus in Laws humane and not much more in Ordinances divine Yea there is the same onenesse entirenesse indivisibility and essentiality of the Truth Nor do I here disapprove any Scripture-consequence if meerly consequent and not formed up into a Law by meere reason for then mâ—n makes Laws from the Laws of God and this is not the least engine that Antichrist hath wrought with The people are Brethren and Saints in Christs Church but in Antichrists Parishioners and Servants VVHat kind of Government is marked out in Scriptures for sitting on the waters or people Christ governs by the people ministerially not over the people authoritatively only and the people being once in his Church-way lose their old capacity for a new and are raised up from people to Brethren to Churches It is a saying
will have a body sutable pure Not only is the visible body of Christ thus pure but every truth of Christ bears the Image of Christ every truth of his hath something of himself in it who is Truth it self I am the Truth saith Christ every beam of light is light every truth is a sparkle of truth it self Thus we may judge of truth by what of Christ we see in it They who break a Chrystall may see their face in every peâ—â—e and parcell so in every thing of Christ there is an Image of Christ either of his purity or holinesse or love or humility or meeknesse c. The Presbyteriall Government and the Worlds of the same equall Dominion VVHat kind of Church-government is that which will set up it selfe with the Civill and State-government even co-ordinate with it if not to the ruling and tutoring of it which hath as large a Dominion as the other which is as full as ample as high and as supream which no lesse territorie then a Kingdome will serve then a whole Nation Muâ—â— Christs Government be just as large as the worlds which Government affects Dominion which brings in whole Nations under the Scepter of it This or that little one in the Scripture which sits downe sometimes in a house to the Church in thy house sometimes in a City as Corinth and over a few there to the Church in Corinth in a Countrey not over a Countrey to the seven Churches in Asia not to the Church of Asia or the Church Asia a Church a fourth part of the world Sure if this Nationall and comprehensive Church were the patern we should walk by Why did not Christ begin first at Kings and Princes and so bring Nations and Kingdomes and make Churches of them But we see no such thing he begins lower at the base and weake and foolish and few and raises up his Kingdome from the bottome of the world and not from the top or pinacle of Princes Kingdomes and Nations The Nationall and Congregationall Church-covenant both lawfull or both unlawfull HOw can a Church-covenant be unlawfull if the Nationall-covenant be warrantable and why doe any plead against that who are for this A Covenant is condemned in the Congregationall Church and yet commended in the Nationall Now How can a Church-covenant be both true and false Is a great Church-covenant lawfull and a little one unlawfull a Nationall Church-covenant warrantable and a Congregationall unwarrantable But Covenantâ— in their nature were a dispensation more of the Olâ— Testamenâ— strain a Nationall Church had a Covenant to gather them up into their Nationall way of worship and were under the Laws of an externall Pedagogâ—â— and now the spirituall dispensation being come even the Gospell of Iesus Christ there is a fulnesse of spirit let out upon the Saints and people of God which gather them up more closely spiritually and cordally then the power of any former dispeâ—sation could the very Covenant of God himself of which the former were typicall and Propheticall comes in nakedly upon the spirits of his and drawes them in and is a law upon their inward parts sweetly compelling in the consciences with power and yet not with force with compulsion and yet with consent and surely where this Covenant of God hath its kindly and spirituall operation there would need no such externall supplement as before but because of the hardnesse of our hearts it is thus from the beginning it was not so the spirit tyed up thousands together then Let States then have any prudentiall security any designe of sound wisdome to consoraâ—e people together but let the Church only be gathered up by a Law of a more glorious and transcendent nature by the pure Covenant of God himselâ— with the souls of his We receive and give out Truth by parts MEn are to be judged and followed according to the degrees of light they receive and if any have some light that light is not to be used as an advantage to all their other darknesse as if all their darknesse might passe under that one beame of light The light rises upon the Prophets as the Sun upon the Earth it is dawning and morning and noon with them Thus came the Gospell Iohn preached Repentance Iesus Christ Faith and Repentance Iohn came with Water Christ with the Spirit and first in Parables and after in power the Apostles they knew first Christ for Messiah then that he should suffer and die and rise againe and then the Kingdome of God Luther knew first that Indulgences were unwarrantable and after that Popery was Antichristianism and Rome was Babylon and works could not justifie and after conscience was not to be compelled in spirituals Thus we grow from Faith to Faith to the fulnesse of stature in Christ to a perfect man in him growing with the increasings of God The Kingdome of God is like a little leven like a grain of mustard seed So as while we see but things in degrees we are neither to be too sudenly admired by others nor our selves All Covenanters are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State VVHosoever hath Covenanted is bound to assist the Publike to his utmost in every Condition and Calling and Place and Way accordingly from naturall abilities to his relations from one relation to another even to all to that of Christian and Spirituall his Prayers Counsell Notions with Countributions of all sorts Civill Naturall Temporall Spirituall He is bound by Covenant to discover malignity in State in Church enemies to God as well as man endeavours to any thing of Popery and Prelacy under what visage habit form of Words of Doctrine Discipline be it Presbytery or whatever if repugnant to the Word of God as we are perswaded in conscience who have personally Covenanted The breathings and speakings of the Spirit are not to be quenched Every season is for the Lords service in season and out of season Watchman watchman what of the night The Spirit is powred upon sons and daughters Synods of men are not infallible Not because more men more of the Spirit The liberty of the subject is that of soule as well as body and that of soul more deare precious glorious The liberty wherein Christ hath made us free Be not ye then the servants of men in the things of God We are to try Truth and so receive it in its Degrees ENquiries for Truth ought to be according to Scripture-rule and that rule lights us on to the triall of all things and proving spirits and judging between the precious and the vile The water that is mingled with the wien the Tares with the Wheat will require sound tryall lest we make but an exchange of one Error for another The Apostles waited for the Spirit the Bereans searched the Word we are bidden to trie and prove The Prophecies of seducers false Christs Antichrist with lying wonders are as reall cautions given out by the Spirit The examples of former Ages Luther
it Quaere If confident sleightings c. were counted no sufficient answers from the Prelates to the Presbyters why are Presbyters sleightings counted so sufficient arguments for their Dissenting Brethren now and if to raile be to reason and to revile be to refute Mr. Edwards and some of his brethren have as strongly confuted us as the Prelates did formerly them 17. Prelates impropriate Orthodox In impropriating to the same party the praise of Orthodox as if to speak a word or think a thought against them were no lesse Heresie then it was in former times to speak against the Popes Supremacy or the Monks fat belly Quaere 1. It it were so ill taken by the Presbyters then that the Prelates impropriated the name Orthodox how may it be taken now by all the rest who are cast out as Hereticks and Schismaticks while they walke abroad cloathed only in the name of Orthodox Divines 2. If the Popes Supremacy and the Monks fat belly and the Prelates could not beare a word nor a thought against them are not some Divines working for a supremacy and a reuenue against which it may prove as great a crime to speake 18. All not of their opinion are factious Sure the man thinks he hath obtained a Monopoly of Learning and all knowledge is loct up in his bosome and not only Knowledge but Piety and peaceablenesse too for all that are not of his opinion must suffer either as weak or factious if he may be their judge Quaere 1. Whether do not they who hold all other in Schisme and Heresie and a company of Mechanicks who conforme not to them conceive they have the Monopoly of Learning as once the Prelates did and who are these now 2. Whether do not they who look on their Brethren that dissent as Troubâ—ers Factious Schismaticall cenceive all Piety and peaceablenesse to be lockt up in their own bosomes and who are they and who are the weake and factious if they may be judges 19. Prelates pathes causes of Divisions It is no wonder concerning the pathes our Prelates have trod that there are divisions in the Nation the wonder is the Divisions are no more no greater Quaere If the usurpation Tyranny Persecution of the Prelates were reckoned for the supreme division makers in the Kingdom when the Non-conformists were the only Separatists Why do they not find out some other or such like cause now in some other place rather then amongst their dissenting Brethren themselves whom they now only accuse of division and faction but this is the difference of being Parties and Iudges we naturally spie out faults furthest from our selves 20. Where is the Church of England We desire him to tell us what the Church of England is for it doth not please him that we should call the Convocation the Church of England much lesse the Bishops or Archbishops Quaere It was so hard to find out the Church of England in the Prelates dayes surely it is hard to find it out now then it seemes neither Synod Bishops nor Archbishops were the Church Then Quaere where is the Church now not in the Assembly they are but consulting how to build the Church not in the Presbytery for that is a Church unbuilt yet not among the Parisâ—es they are not Scripture-Churches or Congregations as the same Smectymnuus sayes then where is the Church of England 21. The name of Church is the Gorgons-Head But these Episcopall men deale as the Papists that dazle the eyes and astonish the senses of poore people with the glorious name of the Church the Church the holy mother the Church this is the Gorgons-Head that hath inchanted them and held them in bondage to their errours all their speech is of the Church the Church no mention of the Scriptures of God the Father but all of the mother the Church Quaere 1. If the name of Church then the Mother-Church the Church was such a Gorgons-Head by which Prelates as well as Papists inchanted thousands of people to beleeve why is that very thing or device taken up in another forme to inchant with still viz. The Church of England the Orthodox Churches the Reformed Churches 2. If the Church Mother was so much spoken on before and the Scriptures so little why is not the Church of England the Reformed Churches the Orthodox Churches and Divines lesse spoken on and the Scriptures more 22. An ill Custome to say Church of England and Conformity It hath been the custome of late times to cry up the holy mother the Church of England to call for absolute obedience to holy Church full conformity to the orders of holy Church neglecting in meane time God the Father and the holy Scriptures Quaere If it hath been the unwarrantable custome of late times to cry up the Church of England and absolute obedience to the Church and conforâ—â—â—â— why is this custome still kept up conformity obedience and uniformity as much called for still as before why is not the word more spoken on and the Reformeâ— Church lesse why is not free Christian liberty peaceable forbâ—arance of each others differing opinions and practices in unity more heard among us and obedience conformity and uniformity lesse 23. To call Schismaticks and Hereticks the Bishops practice Only there is one practice of our Bishops that is their casting out unconforming Brethren commonly known in their Court language by the name of Schismaticks and Hereticks Quaere 1. If the Bishops did practice the casting out the Non-conforming Brethren wâ—itner ought any such practice to be taken up by the Non-conforming Brethren against Brethren now not Conforming to them 2. If all the Non-conforming Brethren were in their Court-language Hereticks and Schismatick whether ought not such names to be sent packing to Court again rather then taken up by the same Brethren who were so much called so themselves Hereticks and Schismaticks that they have taken it up against others 24. Heresies and Schism harsh words But we had hoped the refusall of the use of a Ceremony should never have been equalized in the punishment either to Heresie or Schisme Quaere If you hoped that the refusall of a Ceremony would not have been punished with Heresie and Scâ—ism from Bishops may not your Brethren hope much more from you that their dissenting from you in things of outward Cognizance and Form as Church Order and Baptism would not be so branded for Heresie and Schisme by you who glory in a more Gospell-way as as you were branded yourselves of late 25. Heavie censures for Non-conformity I am sure above the crime of the Remonstrant Non-conforming Brethren who are unsetled in poynts of a meane difference which their usuall language knowns by no betterâ— terme then Schismaticks and factions yet even such as have fallen under the heaviest censures of Excommunication deprivation suspentioâ— c. Quaere 1. Why was it such a crime to count any Schismaticks and factious under Prelacy and
why is it now under Presbytery matter of just report against others 2. If Excommunications Deprivations Suspensions c. were esteemed so burdensome and cruell then why are Fines Penalties and imprisonments so much preached for now why do not the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way thinke it as hard for the Magistrates to aflict their Brethren as they thought it hard in the Prelates to afflict themselves 26. No Presbyters to be Ambitious Neither in any of his writings the least intimation of superiority of one Presbyter over another save only where he names Diotrephes as one ambitiously affecting such Supremacy Quaere If none but such as Diotrephes is observed in Scripture for affecting Supremacy and Superiority and if one Presbyter cannot be found affecting place above other Presbyters in opposition to Bishops then how is it cleared that a Presbyter may be supreame to a whole Church or Congregation and that it is not as much Superiority for some few Presbyters to affect being above many Saints together in one Church as for one in name or office as a Bishop to affect place above another in name or office as a Presbyter and so Episcopacy be as warrantable as Presbytery and both alike unwarrantable A Beame of Light to discover a way to the peace both of CHURCH and STATE By way of Considerations Consid 1. LEt it first be considered where the great obstructions lie against Liberty or Tolleration of Brethren of severall waies and if it may not be found to be in these things 1. A taking the whole Kingdom of England for the Church of England and so setting up the National Magistracy of Israel in the Nation now as it was then which how it may be warranted would be well considered 2. A jealousie how to preserve the present Ecclesiasticall Interest without the choycest power of the Magistrate to help it which if well observed makes it appeare to be lesse of God and more of Man 3. An interpretation of these Gospell Scriptures which concerne Magistracy Rom. 13. 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 12 14. which I humbly conceive to be so far as concernes any good or evill either of the Law of Nature or Nations into a good or evill purely spirituall and of meere revelation in the Gospell as things of Gospell-light and mystery and notions of Heresie and Schism are this latitude of interpretation of the generall Rules in the Gospell concerning Magistracy into all particulars of Truth and Heresie is of high consideration Consid 2. Let it be considered how the Kingdome of England may be called the Church taking in all the Northen parts the Western parts the whole Nation generally to the very wals of London with Mr. Marshals Testimony that many thousands nay thousands of thousands which accordingly reckoned takes up almost the greatest part of the Kingdom not knowing their right hand from their left in the very principles of the Doctrine of Christ and saith Mr Marshall no land can be esteemed Christs Kingdom where the preaching of the wâ—ra is not established is any country esteemed a part of a Princes Dominion that is not ruled by his Laws Consid 3. Let it be considered then seeing the Kingdom of England is not a Church but in the generall a Nation baptized into they know not what at first and beleeving generally they knew not in whom ever since as Mr. Marshall whether there may not be a free peaceable cohabitation of the people together viz. of those called Presbyteriall Independent Anabaptists enjoying there severall waies of practice in things of outward cognizance and order as Baptism Church-Order c. in all peaceable demeanure and godlinesse as well in this spirituall variety as so many Corporations Counties Divisions Armies and severall Companies in that their civill variety and yet in all a civill comelinesse peace and unity Consid 4 Let it be considered whether the Civill power in such a Gospell-mystery as Presbytery is and the way of Baptism is and the way of Independency is may not with more lawfulnesse lesse hazzard of sin and safety keep off or suspend his engagements from all sides seeing there lies Gospell-strength and Arguments on all sides and walke only according to those generall Rules the Gospell hath laid him down in Rom. 1. 3 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2 1 Pet. 2. 13 14. not daring to draw himselfe to revenge any misbeleefe of particular Scripture misteries forcing either side either for Presbytery Independency or Baptism which the Gospell hath no where warranted him in speciall or in any cleare consequence to do but such as the present prevailing Brethren draw out from the judiciall law of Moses to help and from these generall Gospel rules which can bring forth but an opinionative justice as their Arguments an opinionative truth or Presbytery whether the Magistrate ought not to demand a more clear equitable rule in things of spiritual cognizane I humbly present to be considered Whether there ought not to be a certain Rule for a certaine justice so if there should ever be a proceeding to Fines Imprisonment Banishment the Divines can administer no more certain grounds for the Magistrates conscience then such as they have for their own which are but probable controvertible doubtfull as the Arguments on all sides will make appeare Consid 5. Let it be considered whether it hath not been one of the Nationall sins viz. Making Laws against all other I ormes but what it did establish it self Nationally by which experience hath told us how Gospell Truths have been kept out whole Generations â—opish States kept out Protestantism and Prelacy kept out Peesbytery and whether Presbytery proceeding on the same ground is not in the same danger of sin and of keeping out other Truths and whether upon this ground any Gospell Revelation or Light of which there shall be an Encreasing every day as Mr. Case himselfe preached ever shall come into this Nation but of the Nationall size and temper and we know that is not often the Gospell way the Lord hath chosen the weake things and base things Consid 6. Let it be considered whether part of the great Mystery of iniquity be not that of drawing in the strength of the Nations the Princes of the earth to support the Ecclesiasticall or Church glory and let this be sadly considered did not Popery get in the Kingdoms of the world to support itselfe Did not Prelacy stand by the same power Doth not Presbytery hold it selfe by the same strength of Magistrates Are not the same Iron rods and scourges of steele conveyed over from one of them to the other Did not the Pope whip the Protestant with fine imprisonments and the Prelate take the rod out of his hand and whip the Non-conformist and the Non-conformist or Presbyter take the same â—od out of the Prelates hand and scourge those that are Non-conformists to him Consid 7. Let it be well considered whether the design of the Nationall Ministery eversince
the first working of it upon the Magistrates hath noâ— a design for strengthening their own interest by the Magistracy of the Kingdoms and how have Kingdoms been embroyled for the serving of this designe and whether is not this guilded with the glorious name of Reformation Consid 8. Let it be considered from the severall waies and Formes of proceeding in which the beleevers of severall opinions have gone in these times to support themselves which stands most on a pure Gospel spirituall bottom supported by its own innate â—ongeniall and proper strength clasping about no stones no pillars of the world or humane strength Consid 9. Let it be considered whether the whole cry of the Divines of the other party as in the late Book is not all to the Magistrate Help us Parliament help us City or we are undon the Heresies and Sects will undo us What said Ezra I was ashamed saith he to require of the King an army and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way because we had said the hand of our God is upon all them that seek him Consid 10. Let it be considered whether they whom he cals Hereticks and Schismaticks make it one of their choycest Principles to desire the Magistrate to help their opinions with their prisons fines pillories but rather that they would let them alone to stand and fall by the power or weaknesse of their Gospell principles and that they may have liberty to pray for them pay to them and possesse the Gospell Each opinionst ted briefly respectively to Toleration Let it be considered to what each pretended Heresie will amount to Independency INdependents beleeve that since the Parishes are so generally corrupted the Churches ought to consist of those of them only that professe more purely as they find Scripture Rule and Practice and as the Presbyterians themselves many of them practice in some Ordinances as that of Baptism and Supper giving them only to the purest Beleevers They also beleeve that they ought not be a few Ministers and Elders of the Churches to bring all the Churches and Congregations under their Power and Dominion but rather under under their advice and consultation Quaere Because then they practice to meet more purely and to rule lesse one over another whether is this enough that they should be fined imprisoned banished The Anabaptists THe Anabaptists so called they hold that Beleevers ought only to be baptized and that Baptisme ought to be so for the manner as may set forth Christs Death Buriall and Resurreâ—â—ion by water as the Greek word and Apostles practice seems to imply and some of the ablest Divines both of England and the great Adversaries the Papists themselves deny not and for children they read of none the Apostles Baptized and they see not any Scripture cleere enough to warrant and they therefore forbeare Quaere Because they will not practice then what is not cleere in command and confessed by all to be but in hidden consequence because they baptize as they find the clearest rule and practice and as none can deny but it was the Apostles generall practice to baptez Beleevers therefore whither is this enough that they should be Fined Imprisoned Banished The Seekers SEekers some of them Question only the way of Church and Ordinances as of Baptism c. because they find that the power was at first given to the Apostles with gifts and from them to others and they dare not take it from Antichrist and the Bishops as the Reformed Kingdomes generally take it nor from the Churches because they find no such power begun from the Churches but only of châ—yâ—e of consent not of power not Churches begun before Apostles or Disciples with gifts Quaere Whether then is this enough because they conceive they dare not take Ordinances but from such and in such a manner as was given at first to Fine Imprison or Banish them A Modell or Short Draught of the whole difference betwixt the Divines for the Presbytery and them of the other way respectively to the Magistrate or State drawn from the late Books and practice of both parties in a Petâ—â—nary way They of the Presbytery to the Magistrates or State VVE humbly Petition ye that Herericks and Schismaticks we beleeving all that differ from us to be so may have your power inflicted upon them whether to Fines Imprisonmâ—n or Banishment and upon this condition ye shall have what we can do or preach c. The Independents to the Magistrates or State VVE humbly Petition that ye will not hazzard nor endanger your civill power of the State to helpe our opinions against our Brethren for we are not Infallable nor Apostolicall we see but in part and that ye will not punish any of our Brethren Presbyterials or others for what they beleeve or differ from us in things of outward order in the Gospell and that we may have leave to pray for ye to pay tribute to ye to fight for ye and to worship the Lord among our selves peaceably as we beleeve and to punish us when we disturbe ye by tumults or trouble your peace in our way of worshipping Some Quaeres for the better understanding of M. Edwards last Book called in Latine Gangrena But in English a Book of Scandals against the Honourable Houses of Parliament the Army the Saints and Churches of Christ that differ from him Quaere 1. VVHether this be not a new way and work of Providence to bring forth some Gospel-light to the world by presenting some truth under the name and notion of errours and heresies which can scarâ—e obtaine from the Presse and Pulpit any other way of appearing abroad and if this â—e not to take the wise in their owne craftinesse and to make M. Cranford the Licenser and M. Edwards the Publisher of some such Truths which the world had else never knowne so publikely but under the forme of heresie and from their two pens but under this disguise 2. Whether that Story which M. Edwards tels of Brasteed in Kent where he sayes a woman preaches which is known to my selfe and all in that place to be a meere untruth be not a way to judge of most of his Stories Letters Relations 3. Whether this late Book called Gangrena where there are so many letters writ to the Reverend M. Edwards to the Worthy M. Edwards to the Good M. Edwards to the Father M. Edwards to the Worthy Reverend good M. Edwards with divers other insinuations of his own worth be not a way of seeking glory and praise from men 4. Whether so many Letters as are in the Book called Gangrena where there is not one name subscribed may not be as well written from M. Edwards as to him and whether the Authours of those Letters whose names are suppressed are not afraid to be questioned for their Relations and therefore have either conceived their names themselves or M. Edwaras for them 5. Whether the great reasonings and conflicts which
of Dominion ruling conventing excommunicating in each Objection But how will you do to satisfie Parliament Presbyterials and other dissenting Brethren Answ Not that I will determine but propound for the Parliament It appeares that the State-conscience according to the present corrupt constitution both of Ministers and Elders and People of this Kingdom cannot yeeld a Divine Right to a Presbytery so constituted and therefore they are not to be forced to the judgement of the present Assembly no more then the Assembly do desire to be forced themselves to their judgment and therefore each is to enjoy their liberty in the Lord as they are perswaded The State is to enjoy their liberty in their judgement of no Divine Right in this present Presbytery The Assembly may enjoy theirs in their judgement of a pretended Divine Right or Presbytery in all Congregations which will conscienciously practice with them not seeking to make the State subservient to them by their Civill power which no Scripture practice will warrant from any Eldership or Presbytery there and thus the French Churches enjoy the Presbytery at this day having no Civill power to help them And the other dissenting Brethren may enjoy their Divine Right too being as fully perswaded from Scripture of theirs as the other are of theirs and equally live under the same liberty and not trouble the State with any thing but their prayers and obedience Objection But the Brethren of the Assembly expect the Parliament should joyne with their results Answ I know not why they should expect that for they are no more infallibly gifted then their Brethren that they should expect more from the State then they Their Ministery is as questionable Their Interests are more in the world then the Interests of the first Presbyters were as in their maintenance by Tythes and in their power of Classicall Provinciall Nationall the Kingdom being thus corrupted and in that subserviency and power of compulsion they demand of the Magistrate and Princes of the world And why our dissenting Brethren may not with as much justice honor conscience desire the State to settle such a Gospell-order as they beleeve to be true the other being no more enabled to demand of the State any power for imposing their conclusions true by a power of the States own giving by Ordinance And whether the State seeing no infallibility of spirit in any of all sides since what the Truth which they hold bring in its own evidence and demonstration before them ought to be pressed as bound to one by any Interest more then to another save that of Truth I leave to be considered and then what reason the Brethren have thus to presse their supposed Divine Right I desire to know Objection Whether is this to settle things according to Covenant Answ Yea The Covenant binds us to Vniformity but then that clause According to the Word of God doth restraine the Vniformity to the light which each Kingdom sees by according to that Word and therefore our Brethren of Scotland see Presbytery in one degree the Hollanders in another and the French in another and at this time England in another and yet all should be one in that clause of the Covenant viz. to defend each other in their degrees of Reformation against the common enemy We Scotland and Scotland us and what a comely thing it is for Brethren to dwell together in Unity though they cannot in Uniformity The Last Petition of the Assembly for Divine Right in their present Presbytery with Inferences upon it Petition THat the Provisions of Commissioners to judge the scandals not numerated appeares to our consciences to be so contrary to that way of Government which Christ hath appointed in his Church Inference Whence we may inferre that the Assembly do suppose the Parliament and Commissioners to be far below the Ministers and Eldership in spirituall gifts and discerning which I suppose cannot be well presumed considering the Assembly and Eldership now is not annointed with that pure spirit and gifts as the first were but with habits of Arts and Sciences and with some measure of the Spirit which many both of the Parliament and Commissioners both may be and are enabled with as well as they and whether is not this to set up the old distinstion of Layty and Clergy and to set the present Eldership and Presbytery upon a higher Forme then the Magistrate seeing the gifts are not so distinct as at first why should the Offices be so distinct Petition In that it giveth a power to judge of the fitnesse of Persons Inference Whence we may inferre that they presume themselves to be that very Ministery and Eldership of Jesus Christ though both their Ministery is by Bishops and their Elders by a prudentiall constitution and election at this present and may not the Magistrate who is unquestionably the power of God Rom. 13. appointed to be Judge of good and evill more lawfully judg oâ— sins and Gospell-Rules then they who are a questionable Ministery and Eldership in this present Presbytery Petition And to be so differing from all examples of the best Reformed Churches and such a reall kinderance to the bringing the Churches of God in the three Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity and in all those respects so disagreeable to our Covenant Inference Whence we may inferre that if all do not beleeve as one beleeve it is pretended that all are in breach of Covenant and thus the Covenant is made a snare by interpretation and principles of spirituall compulsion implyed in the Covenant contrary to the Spirits wisdom who both allowes and advises the severall statures and measures of light the weak and strong and whether the Communion by unity is not a glorious supplement to the Rent of Vniformity that of Vnity being in the Spirit that of Vniformity in the Letter and why should our Brethren thus bring down the State and Kingdom more to other Reformed Kingdoms or not rather raise up the other Reformed Kingdoms to this and if any thing be revealed more to this Kingdom that hath sit by this long time why should not the other hold their peace and beleeving Kingdomes as Beleevers walke one with another so far as they have attained and wherein they have not the Lord shall reveale even this unto them not but that this Kingdome ought to forme it selfe into any Communion with the rest so far as their Communion excels and so the other into Communion with this so far as this excels and both so farre to one another as they are perswaded not compelled which are no Arguments for Faith but Formality Petition Do humbly pray that the severall Elderships may be sufficiently enabled Inference Whence we may inferre that their whole endeavour is to raise up the Interest of the Eldership and Presbytery into a distinct sole and Independent body and power which how conformable and obedient and consistent it may prove to and with the power of the State
will peaceably joyne with them in the Kingdom under that Power and not to trouble the Magistrate further and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right as the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way theirs and all alike under the same Civill Power and neither of them with it and all other Reformed Kingdomes in unity of the Spirit and love to one another Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences 1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office but the Magistrate may rule with them THe Eldership and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations but now as the anointing is not so nor is the Office pure peculiar and distinct the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spirituall as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery and may therfore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations as they unlesse their Churches Officers and Gifts were more Christs then they are 2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices Gifts c. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin then they 3. Vniformity in the Word of God is the Vniformity of Churchâ—â— They that presse the Covenant for Vniformity so penally as they do make it a snare of compulsion not in the Word of it but in their Interpretation of that Word unity in the Spirit makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Vniformity in Laws Ecclesiasticall then in Civill but may walke together as Beleevers so far as they have attained that clause according to the Word of God makes roome for the severall statures of Christ and measures of light in the Covenant and they that agree in that are truly Vniforme for it is the Vniformity with the Word not with one another but so far as we are all alike in that Word which is the very Vniformity of the Kingdom of Christ 4. The Magistrate as they now make him is Ecclesiasticall as well as they They that ascribe a Power to any to compleat and actuate them in their Ministration do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so informe and compleat them so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery doth imply a Presbyteriall and Ecclesiasticall Power in that State and if so the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church as any ruling Officer they have 5. The present Presbytery in mystery both over and under the Magistrate They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery tell me in what spheare or where rule they for over it they are not Commissioners they say are contrary to the Word and under it they are not for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto â—â— so as they who are so much in the dark with their Government do with Magistracy they know not what and would place it they know not where The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate then the Erastian and how the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in Gospell-order but a Kingdom of Beleevers in generall and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to Gospell-order and till both this Nationall Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ and those very Officers of Christ the Magistrate may as lawfully yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer Minister or Elder amongst them for Magistrates have the whole Kingdome of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Beleevers not a Church they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds or lesse his own so as the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church Ministers and Elders nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church Ministery and Eldership for all Scripture proofes of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership according to Truth not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved â—â—ue no Scripture either alleadged for Presbytery belongs to them nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate as from the Church of Christ Conclusion These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature which is of high concernment in the things of Gospell-order as any point now abroad for surely it is not a Vniversity a Cambridge or Oxford a Pulpii and Blacke gowne or Cloake makes one a true Minister of Iesus Christ though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificiall unction for that true one of the Spirit and the Ministery hath beene so cloathed with Art and Habit that if the Apostles should live again and preach in that plainnesse they came they would be as despised for we wonder after the Wise the Scribe and the Disputer of this World FINIS An End of ONE CONTROVERSIE BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOKE called LIGHT FOR SMOKE One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER Which he writ lately against me In which the Summe of his last Booke which relates to the most materiall Passages in it is gathered up and replied to By Iohn Saltmarsh not revolted as Master Ley saith from a Pastorall Calling but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops and now a Preacher of the Gospell Isa 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darknesse for light Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing and some another for the Assembly was confused and the most part knew not wherfore they were come together Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this he dismissed the Assembly LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speake fairely in his owne just defence and the Law of Grace requiring him to speake zealously in the defence of Truth I thinke it equall that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed April 15. 1646. John Bachiler The LETTER