Scriptures the authority of Councels and Synods and you shall find satisfaction to most of the materiall grounds which have misled you in your Church-way In which answers you shall find that the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scripture is principally meant in matters of doctrine and in points necessary to salvation And for policie and externall order wherein the Scriptures doe reach to them it is to be understood of the Essentials Substantials and Fundamentals of Government and Discipline and not of the accidentals accessaries and circumstantials as I could abundantly out of Calvin Beza Zanchius Iunius Daneus shew you But I intend a whole Tractate upon that question of the Scriptures how farre they are a rule for all matters of externall government and order in the visible Church with an answer to this objection particularly and will not enlarge further saving only that I will adde the resolution of this question and case out of Whitaker Chamier and Cameron who are full and cleare that 't is not against the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that all matter of externall order and policie are not laid down in the word Learned Chamier shewes the judgement of the Churches of France Holland nay he shews 't is the perpetuall opinion of all the Protestants and he adds Yea truly to speake as the matter is The Church cannot be altogether without unwritten traditions and he instances in certain Rites according to places times and persons changeable and various So Cameron For since the Scripture hath been ordained of God to make one wise unto salvation and perfect unto every good work it must without doubt containe all doctrine necessary to salvation otherwise it could not attaine its end Let us then adore as Tertullian speakes the fulnesse of the Scriptures and let us not heare as Athanasius speaketh neither receive any thing besides or above them in that which concernes the doctrine of faith For touching the policie and ceremonies used in the Church it is another matter we avouch that the Fathers did not thinke themselves bound to give an account of them by the Scripture So Dr Whitakers speaks also the same in that question and controversie of the perfection of the Scriptures against humane traditions Catholici in hoc toto negotio distinguendum putant inter râ—…s quae traduntur in Ecclesia rationem earum tradendarum res ipsas esse duorum generum scilicot alias in quibus substantia est quasi conpus religionis Christianae non tantum ad fidem sed etiam ad mores formandos politiamque Ecclesiae continendam proinde necessarias ex vi institutionis divinae alias ejuâ—… essentiae velut appondices ejusque corporis ornamenta neque ex sâ—… neque ex institutiono divina necessarias sed potiuâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 politiâ—… tantum causa in usum receptas ut sunt disciplinae partos varijs caenoâ—…ibus sancitae Imo vero ut fateamur quod res est omnino non potest Ecclesia carere Traditionibus non scripâ—…is sive intelligas quotidianam tradendae fidâ—…libus ojus veritatis quae non aliunde hauritur quam è libris sacris rationem sive ritus quosdampro locis tempâ—…ribus persâ—…nis varios aptos tamen exercendae pietati charitatique conservandae qui etsi non extent in canone totidem literis tamen a nemine contemni debent eo ipso quod ab Ecclesia id est pastoribus instituti sunt dum tamen nihil officiant aut sinceritati doctrinae aut libertati conscientiae cui propriè leges prescribit non nisi Deus Non dicimus omnes liberas ceremonias esse nominatim in Scripturis traditas ut quemadmodum se gerere debeant homines in sacris caetibus hujusmodi quas esse varias 〈◊〉 pro temporum personarum ratione minime ignoramus de caeremonijs inquam liberis quae ad externam tantum politiam decorum pertinent non contendimus sed de necessaria doctrina Haec perpetua illae vero non perpetuae sed ad tempora accommodatae Deinde fatemur Apostolos in singulis Ecclesiis ritus aliquos atque consuetudines ordinis decoris causa sanxisse non autem scripsisse quia hi ritus non fuerunt perpetui futuri sed liberi qui pro commodo temporum ratione muâ—…ri possunt Praescriptos autem ab illis esse ejusmodi ritus aliquos ad honestam Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accommodatos pater ex 1 Cor. 11. 14. cap. Tantum generalis regula habetur in Scripturis omnes istosritus ad adificationem ac decorum esse dirigendos sed ipsi particulares ritus non proponuntur At dicimus omnia quae necessaria sunt sive ad fidem sive ad vitam spectent apertè abundè in Scripturis explicari Now as for the exception made by you of this rule of meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature where what you affirme seems to amount to this that you practised all the examples of the Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles excepting those Suffer me to aske you these few questions upon your exceptions made of this first rule First What you meane by meere circumstances and what by the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate because the Reader may be much deceived in these generall and doubtfull expressions you should have done well to have particularized what you judge circumstances and what meere circumstances and what be the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as also have laid downe before the Reader how you in your Church-way keepe unto these and I aske the rather because I find a Sermon of Mr Bridge one of the Authors of this Apologie preacht before the House of Commons not long before this Apologie came forth that makes none of these exceptions but excepts and excludes them shewing that in the visible Church Gods word is our line able to reach unto all particular affaires of the Churches and in particular he labours to answer that of circumstances and perverts two sayings of Luther and Bishop Iewel Secondly Whether you doe practise and observe your own rule here given with the exceptions made by you or whether you doe not much depart from it in your Church-way not yeelding to meere circumstances nor the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as for instance receiving the Lords Supper at night contrary to the practise of the reformed Churches standing upon that circumstance of time denying appeales from the particular Congregations whereas appeales are a rule the law of nature doth in common dictate Thirdly I demand of you how you could so nakedly propound the Apostolicall directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches to walke by excepting meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature and not except withall extraordinary and miraculous personall and particular occasionall and accidentall temporary and locall patterns and examples
matters of greatest moment and controversie we still choose to practise safely and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts or the most of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable although they make additaments thereunto To this third great principle of yours I answer 1. To it generally as you lay it downe here generally and afterwards more particularly to the instances and particulars brought by you to make it good In this principle you labour to cast an odium upon all the reformed Churches who differ from you dealing by them in such a medium and way as the Protestants doe by the Papists wheras we alleadge against the Papists that the Protestant Religion is via tuta and what we practise they themselves cannot but allow only they hold and practise over and above as namely they adde to Christs Righteousnesse their own in the point of Justification to Christs intercession the intercession of the Virgin Mary and Saints to prayers unto God prayers to Angels and Saints to the Scriptures the traditions of the Church to our Sacraments confest by themselves five others c. So here you say that you chose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge other Churches did acknowledge warrantable but they make additaments and this you weave in all along in the particular instances under this head and it lyes upon them to prove what they adde over and above Now besides the great dissimilitude and difference of additaments in the things themselves between the Protestants and Papists and you and the reformed Churches the Papists additaments being in matters of faith and substance of worship but the matters excepted against by you being about outward government and order and that not so much about the things themselves the officers parts of worship but about the different manner and way of them as you acknowledge in your eighth pages and so you had no such cause to insinuate such matters against the reformed Churches yet consider that what you doe hold forth and take as your medium you have no good ground for which will appeare in three particulars and so your Apologie held forth unto the world is neither true nor just 1. I will demonstrate that in many matters of greatest moment and controversie you did not still choose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge that all sorts or most of the Churches did acknowledge warrantable 2. That the reformed Churches practised more safely then you and did not make additaments as you charge them 3. That you in many Church practises have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then in such circumstances wherein you tax the reformed Churches For the first of these three Take these three Instances for the present 1. It is a matter of great moment and controversie to forsake the publike Assemblies which you confesse are true Churches and the body of Christ and to set up separated assemblies without and against the leave of the Magistrate Ministers and Churches This is by the judgment of all the godly and learned Divines of note both in other Churches and in our own condemned as unlawfull by Calvin Beza Peter Martyr Zanchius Bullinger Iunius Pareus Morneus Arnesius Voetius c. with Whitakers Brightman Perkins Cartwright Parker Banes Hildersham Ball. c. I could fill a booke with the testimonies of these and many others and I doe challenge the Separatists of all sorts whether them of the head-forme the Anabaptists or of the middle-forme the old Brownists or the lowest-forme the Semi-Separatists to give me any precept or allowed example of such a practise out of the Primitive patterne shew it me and I will yeild the cause As for that place Rev. 18. 4. you professe against that in your 6 t page of having any thoughts of our Churches or Ministers to be Antichristian and Babilonish I could alledge many Scriptures against this practise Iude v. 19 c. The Apostles who were sent by Christ into the world to make Disciples and to bring men from Judaisme and Heathenisme to beleeve in Christ and to plant Churches of such yet they never taught nor practised to gather and separate some Christians from the rest one part of the Church from the other to goe constitute a purer Church neither in Corinth Philippi c. Although there were many corruptions and many loose persons But Paul taught and practised to censure and cast out evill persons but in case those who had power neglected their duty he never taught the godly to separate from the Lords Supper celebrated in the publike Assemblies much lesse for a few to withdraw from their Pastours and other brethren and to set up new Churches of themselves You are Schollers and well read in the Scriptures shew me but any such direction from the Apostles and I am yours 2. It is a matter of moment and controversie the right making and calling of the Ministers of the Gospell now all the reformed Churches according to the examples of Scripture hold Ministers are not to be made by the people alone and that the people have not power of Ordination and Imposition of hands but the Presbyters and yet you have practised the being cal'd and made Ministers by the people without the Imposition of hands of the preaching Presbyters 3. It is a matter of great moment and controversie whether private Christians who were never trained up in Arts and learning nor intended the Ministery may in the publike Congregation Prophesie which Prophesying as it is not practised by the Reformed Churches so by most of them it is not counted warrantable and yet you allowed it in your Churches to which I might adde more instances but that the book would swell into too great a volume To the second head it is evident the râ—…formed Churchs practised more safely as in declining your way in the last mentioned Instances in not permitting such as are Lay-men to preach or prophesie in not forsaking true Churches or true Ministery for the mixture of wicked men but rather casting out such who after admonition continue impenitent so in other practises practising as the Apostles receiving men into their fellowship without any such curious inquirie and long detention sending men from one to another and requiring such preparatives and conditions to Church-fellowship as your Churches have done The wayes and practises the reformed Churches walked in were the good old way knowne and beaten for some score of yeares in which so many great lights and godly people have walkt and so more safe then bie and new wayes that a few men but of yesterday have taken up and have not yet well aired much lesse digested And in the name of other reformed Churches France Holland Scotland I deny the things you charge them with to be additaments or to be properly so called for if the particulars instanced in by you will be found to have a footing in the Scriptures and practised
HAving diligently perused this Antapologia I find it so full and just and necessary an examination and discovery of the Apologeticall Narration both in matters of fact and of opinion that because I dare not as too many have the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons I approve it to be imprinted and commend it Reader to thy most serious consideration Ia. Cranford ANTAPOLOGIA Or A Full Answer to the Apologeticall Narration OF Mr Goodwin Mr Nye Mr Sympson Mr Burroughs Mr Bridge Members of the Assembly of Divines Wherein is handled many of the Controversies of these Times viz. 1. Of a particular visible Church 2. Of Classes and Synods 3. Of the Scriptures how farre a Rule for Church Government 4. Of Formes of Prayer 5. Of the Qualifications of Church members 6. Of SubmissioÌ„ Non-CoÌ„munioÌ„ 7. Of Excommunication 8. Of the Power of the Civill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticals 9. Of Separation and Schisme 10. Of Tolerations and particularly of the Toleration of Independencie 11. Of Suspension from the Lords Supper 12. Of Ordination of Ministers by the people 13. Of Church Covenant 14. Of Non-residencie of Church-members Humbly also submitted to the Honourable Houses of Parliament By THOMAS EDWARDS Minister of the Gospel Ephes. 4. 14. That we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slâ—…ight of men and cunning craftinesse whereby they lie in wait to deceive Vers. 〈◊〉 But speaking the truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ. Matth. 24. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desart go not forth Behold he is in the secret chambers believe it not Augustinus Vincentio epist. 48. Non enim propter malos boni deserendi sed propter bonos mali tolerandi â—…ti sicut toleraverunt prophetae contra quos 〈◊〉 dicebant 〈◊〉 communionem sacramentorum illius populi relinquebant Bezae epist. prima D'Andreae Duditio lactabimusne libertatem conscientiis permittendam esse Minime ut haec quidem liberta intelligitur id est ut quo quisque modo volet Deum colat Est enim hoc mere diabolicum dogma Sinendum esse unumquemque ut si volet pereat Et illa est diabolica libertas quae Poloniam Transylvaniam hodiè tot pestibus implevit quas nullae alioqui sub sole regiones toleratent London Printed by G. M. for Ralph Smith at the Bible in Cornhill neer the Royall Exchange 1644. To the tender Consciensed scrupulous doubting Christian. DEare and beloved Christians for your salâ—…es in speciall who are apt to be troubled with many doubts and feares about the Constitution and Government of the visible Church and the way of Worship and Communion in it have I drawn up this present Answer as to undeceive you in the Apologists the Apologie and their Church-way so to satisfie you in your scruples and doubts about Presbyterie It was my love care and respect to tender consciences that more especially moved me at first now some seven yeares agoe to fall upon the more thorough studying and searching into the controversies of the Church c. And the grounds which now of late have afresh revived my thoughts and studies that way are 1. The recovering and reducing conscientious Christians who are not too far engaged 2. The setling some who are wavering and doubtfull 3. The keeping of others from falling Now the first borne of my latter thoughts and studies in this kind is this Antapologiâ—… which I here recommend to you for a true glasse to behold the faces of Presbyterie and Independencie in with the beauty order strength of the one and the deformity disorder and weaknesse of the other And good Reader I have some reason to beleeve and hope that if you will indeed reade and consider looke impartially and throughly into this glasse you may be either changed into the image of it or at least so stumbled at Independencie as to be kept from falling into it and willing in the meane time to waite upon God in that way of his an Assembly of so many learned and godly Divines to see what he will be pleased to speake by them I at first intended and accordingly provided materials for a large Epistle to this Book the more to make way for it in the hearts and consciences of the people as well knowing there are laid in before hand by many of the Independent party many prejudices both against my person and the Book to hinder if possible the fruit and benefit of it yea to keep people from so much as reading any part of it that so receiving and beleeving the Independent Grounds without hearing or examining the other side they may be still kept in ignorance and error I had many thoughts and purposes in my Epistle to have given the Reader an accompt of my especiall call to the making this Answer as also to have laid downe the Principles and Rules I more especially went by in the studying of these controversies and then to have Apologized for my selfe and Book by answering some objections and clearing aspersions cast abroad in this mistaking age and by representing to the Reader my many sufferings constant labours c. and so to have compared my grounds moving me to make this Antapologia with the Apologists grounds occasioning their Apologeticall Narration and my Principles with their three Principles expressed in their Apologie and my sufferings troubles patience and labours with their exile and patience c. and then left them to the Reader to judge in those matters between us but conceiving the danger of this way in comparing with the Apologists least I might become a foole in glorying and runne into the same fault I charge upon the Apologists and least it might be thought I sought to commend my Answer by such wayes rather then by the strength of the discourse it selfe I resolved to forbeare all those comparisons and vindications of my selfe and to refer all to God and that I may not hold the Reader too long in the portch I will only insist somewhat upon justifying and clearing the lawfulnesse of the way and manner of this Answer and the grounds I goe upon for matters of fact reported in it and this I must doe of necessitie for besides other grounds calling for it within these few dayes just before the Antapologie was comming forth a Pamphlet entituled The Anatomist Anatomized was printed rather to prepossesse the Reader against the Antapologie then to answer the Anatomie of Independencie as all may see and to be a shelter rather against this shower as the Anatomizer calls it ready to fall then to dry up the drops already fallen But 〈◊〉 shall by the helpe of God not only satisfie the Reader that this covering is too narrow and the stuffe too slight to keep out the shower from wetting but make an advantage of it even
of this they make things accidentally evill according as this is things are or are not ordinances and meanes of salvation Baptisme is no baptisme unlesse it be administered by a Minister A Minister is no Minister unlesse cal'd by the Church and so I might speake of other things By all which it will appeare that Mr Simpson had thoughts and doubts and would have others have such thoughts too that we have neither Churches nor Ordinances nor Ministers according to his definition of a Church and to the matter contained in his letter and in the close of his letter though he writes I meddle not with judging of these things with you but propound you a rule or way to judge of things by I dare not say your Congregations are not Churches but desire you to looke that they be so for your owne peace yet it is evident by what he sayes in his letter that he accounts neither our Churches nor our Ministers true and would stumble him in these things to whom he wrote I have a manuscript entituled a Treatise of the Church going under the name of one of these Apologists and a godly Minister from whose hands I had it assured it me it was his In which Treatise there is an answer to this question But suppose Saints live in a Nation wherein there is some kind of a Church constituted already may they gather themselves into a Church The Answer is as followes 1. If you suppose that there are Churches in England yet such as never were truly members of any of them are free to begin and gather themselves into a Church and to be of the best Institution they can this libertie we under the Gospel have which the Jewes had not 2. Although they are Churches yet we â—…re not to continue in them and not remaine from them 1. In that they are Churches defective in some Ordinances as namely Prophecying mutuall admonition excommunication 2. They are Churches defiled in our judgements in which communicating we cannot but be defiled now though they be Churches as a leprous man was a man yet being defiled we cannot communiâ—…ate with them and so in regard of our use now no Churches and in the same page it is added we may be kept from joyning with the true Church and yet not withdraw from these as no Churches but as no Churches of use to us Now I appeale to the Reader what he can judge of your profession in the sixt page and of these passages in your letters and manuscripts and as some of your hands are contrary to this profession so your workes are contrary to it in forsaking the communion of our Churches and ministerie and in drawing others away and in writing to many to come to you and in setting up Churches and pray deale ingeniously once in your Reply seeing you ever held and doe now much more that our Assemblies are true Churches and our Ministers true Ministers how you can satisfie your owne consciences and us from any Scripture ground either of precept or example to separate from us I am assured you cannot produce any ground and that all Scripture instances whether in examples or precepts will never come up to your practise and case But Brethren why will you in a Narration that should be plaine that all who â—…unne may reade it deale thus fallaciously amuse the Reader with your profession of our Churches and Ministerie in such generals and never declare what you hold particularly of them Few Readers unlesse some who have throughly studied your principles and distinctions being never the wiser for your profession I must therefore of necessity English your words and tell the meaning of all this That is neither the Church or Churches of England nor the Ministery thereof as they are in their frame and constitution according to the Lawes and as they are in their visible order are true Churches or true Ministerie But now so farre as in many of our Parochiall Congregations there is something common with what you hold about a Church and Ministerie so farre true and not Antichristian As for example you hold that in some Congregations we have many visible Saints and in some Parishes Ministers chosen by the people which Ministers preach and pray according to your way but for what we else practise in our making of Ministers in our formes of prescribed prayers c. So no true Churches nor Ministerie And that this is your meaning will appeare by what followes 1. Letters and speeches of some of your way who write not so warily as you show so much Mr Batchelour a member of your Church-way in printed letters of his dated from Rotterdam September the 4th 1641. both to Ministers here in London and to Citizens speakes thus in reference to you And whereas it is beleeved they are friends to separation this I can assure you that they denie not the Churches in England such as M. Calamies and M. Goodwins in Coleman-street to be true Churches And why M. Goodwins and M. Calamies but because they were chosen by the Congregations and there are many visible Saints in those Congregations and so others of your way having been reasoned with how according to your principles That there is no Nationall visible Church under the new Testament no visible Church but a particular Congregation and that the Essence of Ministers calling is Election by the people and that the forme of a Church is a particular Covenant with other things of this Nature And therefore considering the Church of England is Nationall and hath no such Covenant nor such a way of Ministerie how they could hold we had true Churches and true Ministers Their Answer hath been You have Implicite Churches and Implicite Ministers But if you will say you understand your words in this Section not as M. Batchelour nor as others of your way but plainly as Divines usually take Churches and Ministerie then I desire you to reconcile together all your definitions and descriptions of true visible Churches and true Ministers with our Church and Ministery of England And for further satisfaction in this point I desire you in your reply to this Answer candidly and clearely to expresse your selves when you fell to your Church-way and were to be taken for Ministers in those Churches whether you held your selves or were look'd upon by your Churches as true Ministers by vertue of your calling in England Or whether rather you were not lookt upon only as gifted men and did not some of you at least renounce and disclaime your calling in England and were made Ministers a new by the Church consisting only of people or lay-Elders at the best without Ministers M. Williams in his Answer to M. Cottons letter openly justifies they held and practised so in New-England Now your principles agreeing so with theirs and some Stories related to me of some of you makes me doubt the same of you As for that reason you give why you never held our Churches no
used every Lords day in the reformed Churches then the particulars mentionad by you without an c. and therefore what you meane by under c. unlesse Prophesying Hymnes and such like I cannot imagine For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church whether you actually had made any Church-Widdowes in any of your Churches they being matter of charge which also as for admitting of poore members some of you are very carefull of I cannot affirme but that you hold Widdowes to be Officers of the Church and part of the Church government that I can prove by these following instances 1. By a passage in a Letter from Mr Bridge to some at Norwitch by Mr Davenports profession of faith printed and by Mr Cottons Catechisme And how much you have of late reasoned for such a Church Officer in the Assembly you know And let the Reader observe that by the way that we must judge of your wayes rather by what you hold then alwayes by your practise for one of your Churches hath been some yeares without a Pastour the first and chiefe Officer and yet you set up such moch more may you be without Widdowes for some yeares and yet hold them and as you have Widdowes a Church Officer which the reformed Churches hold not so in one of your Churches you have had Teaching Elders besides a Pastor and Teacher And what ever the reformed Churches hold of their Officers as necessary and sufficient for the perpetuall government of the Church Yet your practise is not as if you held them necessary and perpetuall for one of your Churches hath been many yeares without a Pastour the prime Officer and Ruler in the Church and other of your Churches without other officers which if they were so necessary and as instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall Governement of the Church how you can be without these officers and namely the most necessarie and principall for many yeares together I cannot see And I desire you in your Reply to satisfie us and to shew Reason how you can depart from that which is confest by all Churches and your selves to for the maintaining an opinion of the essentiall difference betweene Pastours and Teachers in each Congregation so much denied by many learned and godly Divines As for that Parenthesis about ruling Elders with us not Lay but Ecclesiastick persons separated to that service I desire to know wherein and how your ruling Elders are more Ecclesiasticke persons and separated to that service then the ruling Elders of the Reformed Churches The Reformed Churches account their ruling-Elders Ecclesiasticall persons and they are separated to that worke by election and ordination and whereas you make a distinction in the manner of your expressions between ruling Elders separated to that service and Deacons I aske you whether Deacons are not Ecclesiasticall persons and separated to that service by Election and ordination as well as Elders what are your more and in what further degree are they Ecclesiasticall then the ruling Elders of the Reformed Churches or your owne Deacons doe you meane them so Ecclesiasticall and separated to that service of ruling so as the Pastours and Teachers are to their office that is separated from all civill Imployments and callings to the worke of wholly attending the flocke and of being as Ministers and preachers of the word now if you understand it in this sense that all your ruling-Elders doe give over their civill callings and worldly imployments and are so separated as Pastours and Teachers are it being the duty of the ruling-Elder to teach publikely as well as governe then I have nothing to say against your ruling-Elders And this puts an end to all that controversie about Lay-Elders onely let me aske you two questions 1. What specificall difference you will give me betweene those officers the Ministers of the word and ruling-Elders Seeing both rule and preach and what becomes then of those texts 1 Cor. 12. Rom. 12. Which are held out to prove Church Government by and amongst other particulars are brought to prove that besides those who teach and preach the word the Scripture reckons up Governours and Rulers 2. Whether did your Gentlemen and Merchants who were made ruling-Elders among you upon their office give over their merchandizing and their way of living as Gentlemen wholly applying themselves to their studies and to all gravitie in apparell haire c. But now if your ruling-Elders doe follow their merchandizing and trade and are not as Pastours and Teachers how can you affirme of them to be more Ecclesiastick persons then your Deacons or then the Elders of other Reformed Churches And as for the matter of Governement and censures of the Church you did forget here what you were to write in the 16th page and in the 21th How one of your Churches unhappily deposed one of their Ministers which censure was neither admonition nor excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitence But the particulars under this head I have spoken to upon this Section alreadie But as I have clearly and unanswerably shewed your publique worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches and have instanced wherein you practised and held over and above so let me from this Narration of your wayes and practises here question whether you practised all parts of worship and censures which other Churches practise For I feare your Narration as it is all a long subtilly carried for though you say your worship was made of no other parts nor you executed no other censures but what all acknowledge so it may be here and you may conceale what you have omitted was your worship then and is it still made up of all these Doe all of you hold or did you practise in Holland the reading the Scriptures of the old and new Testament as an Ordinance without any exposition and doe you practise the singing of Psalmes according to the way of Reformed Churches I have been told that at Roterdam the Scriptures were never read barely without Exposition and there are many of your Church way and communion that will neither joyne in hearing the Scriptures read nor in singing of Psalmes in our Congregations Which makes me doubt some of you may be of the same opinion and practise And did all of you whilest you were in Holland and doe you now administer Baptisme to all the Infants of your Churches or are there not some Infants unbaptized amongst you and for the matter of censures though you say you had nor executed no other but what all acknowledge yet you doe not affirme you executed all censures which other Reformed Churches acknowledge and so you conceale your judgement of things Yet in this Narration of your way and practises you carry your discourse so in this Section as if your practise and way were all the same with the Reformed Churches but had you dealt ingeniously in the Narration of the way and practises of your Churches you
should have laid downe particularly as wherein and how farre you agreed with the Reformed Churches so also wherein you departed from them namely you should have shewed in what you practised more then they doe and wherein you practise short of them and in the things you practised with them yet how you differ'd in the manner of them but to returne to that of censures Reformed Churches practise besides admonition and before they come to excommunication that which is called by Divines Abstentio à sacracaena but you doe not so but conceale this but brethren why should you not practise this especially considering how according to your principles the Church is to receive the Lords Supper every Lords day Now suppose some members commit a great sinne on the Saturday which though comming it be known to the Ministers or Elders and some of the people either there may be no time to call the Church to admonish the parties or if there be for admonition yet not time sufficient for the parties to testifie Repentance and yet the persons may not be judged obstinate and impenitent as to be excommunicated but the persons offending will come now to the Lords table in the interim what will you doe in this case And further the Reformed Churches enjoyne the censure of open confession of sinnes and practise deposition of officers from their places which may justly arise upon some cases and yet not thinke it fit to proceed unto excommunication as your selves practised in M. Wards case never proceeding to give him up to Satan but how lame and defective is this your Narration about the governement of the Church onely relating two things you practised in common with the Reformed Churches and as concealing other things you practised not with them so wholly passing over in silence here all your different way of practising from all Churches in the way of ordination in the way of constituting Churches and admission into them and in the way of governing by the votes and suffrages of the whole bodie in the way of celebration the Lords Supper receiving it at night c. in the Sacrament of Baptisme with many other particulars which whether it be fairly done I appeale to the Reader who is by this much deceived thinking upon the reading of this Narration that you had agreed in all things of Worship Officers Censures with the Reformed Churches But to returne to that censure of Excommunication which you insist upon laying downe your judgement about the subject of that censure As for your blessing God you never exercised it There may be but little ground for such a blessing but cause rather to be humbled for not using it seasonably I judge had you practised it some revilings evill speakings between many members of your Churches with some other offences might have been prevented But there is no such great cause to set out your selves by the non-exercise of Excommunication if what you hold for the matter of it be considered wherein I suppose you differ from all Orthodox Reformed Churches and doe open a wide gappe to much licentiousnesse both in doctrine and practise What doe you judge Is it not to be put in Execution for no other kind of sinnes then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. What if men practise Polygamie prophane the Lords day by using it as they doe any other daie what if they doe hold and accordingly will have practised communitie of goods amongst beleevers what if they maintaine that Christians ought not to be Magistrates all which are not condemned in all the Churches of Christ especially if some Churches may be taken for Churches of Christ and we have reason to beleeve by your manner of expressions you include such neither are perpetrated against the parties knowne light but rather are practised upon new light and as new truthes and let me intreate you in your Replie to explain your meaning what you meane by all the Churches of Christ and by the common received practises of Christianitie and what by the principles of Christianitie universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches whether by Churches you understand the Churches onely of your owne communion and waie or the Churches which are commonly called the Reformed Or else all Churches whatsoever that are so called as besides your owne and the Reformed the Churches of the Anabaptists Antinomians and such like And I have reason to propound this question your words being so doubtfull Now if your words and phrases be taken in the first sence of your Churches only that those sinnes and no other are to be the subject of Excommunication then great sins and errours according to the Scripture and judged so by Orthodox Churches may escape Excommunication and on the contrarie many matters which according to Scripture are neither sinnes nor errours but only your Churches hold them so may have that dreadfull sentenee passe upon them but if you meane it in the largest sence for all kind of Churches and for the received principles and practises of Christianitie professed and acknowledged in all the Churches then more sinnes and errours so judged by the word by most Churches and by your owne Churches too will not be acknowledged for such in all the rest of the Churches and so shall escape that censure But if you should say you meane onely the Reformed-churches commonly so called and the common received practises professed by them it cannot be so understood as is evident by your own expressions in this passage about Excommunication So that here are strange unsafe rules to goe by in the censure of Excommunication and I judge it is a part of the new light and now truths of these times never yet given by any learned Classicall Authour How much better were it for Churches to make the subject of Excommunication such sins and errours which the Scripture hath made so and those sinnes to be agreed upon by common consent in Assemblies and Synods so drawne up for all to know them But if it be objected that this may hinder further light and an after discoverie I answer when any thing more shall come to be found out this need be no hinderance unto any light but by the publike Government and common consent upon good grounds may be added But this your judgement about the censure of Excommunication I feare is calculated for the Meridian of pretended liberty of conscience Now this position of holding the subject of Excommunication to be onely such sins and errours as are against the parties knowne light and the common received practises of Christianity professed in all Churches and no other to be the subject of it tends much to the tolerating of Sects and Heresies which in this impure age is by many men and by too many of the Church way so studiously promoted against the nature of Reformation and true zeale But if one of the great ends of Excommunication be to preserve others from
infection and to keepe the Church of God pure as Divines teach then thuogh the party offending shall pretend such sins or errours are not against his knowne light neither contrary to the received principles of Christianity universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches yet Excommunication ought to be exercised by them who have power in the Church And for our direction in these or whatsoever else requisite to the manage of them We had these three principles more especially in our eye to guide and steere our practise by 1. First The supreame rule without us was the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles Our consciences were possessed with that reverence and adoration of the fulnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiencie as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect meere circumstances we except or what rules the law of nature doth in common dictate if the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And although we cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst us or that may give satisfaction unto all Queries possible to be put unto us yet we found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall to the being of a Church but superstructorie also for the well-being of it and those to us cleare and certain and such as might well serve to preserve our Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide us to heaven in a safe way And the observation of so many of those particulars to be laid forth in the word became to us a more certaine evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if we were able to discerne them And for all such cases wherein we saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction we still professedly suspended untill God should give us further light not daring to seeke out what was defective in our light in matters divine with humanâ—… prudence thâ—… fatall errour to Reformation lest by sowing any peece of the old garment unto the new we should make the rent worse we having this promise of grace for our encouragement in this which in our publike Assemblies was often for our comfort mentioned that in thus doing the will of God we should know more From the Narration of your way and practises of your Churches you come now to shew the three great principles above all others by which you guided your selves in your practise which I come now to examine and doubt not but as you have exprest them to discover to the Readers their weaknesse and defectivenesse and easily to take off all the seeming strength of the reasons hinted in them for your selves and against us To the first Principle the supreame rule without you the primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles which also is exprest by you in the third page as that sacredpillar of fire to guide you by in all the positive part of Church worship and Government I answer why is the old Testament forgotten by you and in both these places not so much as mentioned What is the old Testament no patterne nor example to you in Church-worship and governement nor is there nothing recorded there any part of the sacred pillar of fire to guide you by Consider whether in this you follow not too much the example of some Heretiques and erroneous spirits who will have nothing to doe with the old Testament in the points they hold This is the way of the Anabaptists and of the Antinomians both of old and at this day and I am sorry such men as you in such a formall Apologie and Narration of your way as you hold out this to be should so farre forget your selves as to countenance such persons so farre And I must tell you that your search was insufficient and your rule too short if you looked only on the first Apostolike directions patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles For in the old Testament there are many rules directions and examples as a pillar of fire to guide the Churches now by as that Rom. 15. 4. showes namely those examples and rules of morall and common equitie else the Church of God should loose now many a good ground for many practises and you and your partie have been ill advised to fetch grounds out of the old Testament for many things you hold and practise There are some things you practise that you have no proofe for at all out of the new Testament either in example or precept As for instance in the point of Ordination by the people without Officers you alleadge the 8. Numb 20. but can bring none out of the new Testament so for the Church-covenant you multiply places out of the old as Ier. 50. 5. c. But none out of the new and so for that power which you allow Christian Magistrates in the Church you fetch from the old Testament So in the point of idolatrie against the naming the names used by Idolaters you bring all out of the old Testament as Mr Burroughs in his Exposition on Hosea 2. And without the taking in the old Testament which you so wholly forget in this your first principle you would loose much strength in severall points you hold and practise against some who differ from you As in the Baptisme of Infants from the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed and the Circumcision of Infants as in keeping the Christian Sabbath from the fourth Commandement as in speaking against humane inventions in the worship of God from the second Commandement with other particulars of the same kind Now if you will use the old Testament in some examples and commands as you doe though here you forget to mention it Then grounds out of the old Testament in matters not ceremoniall and judiciall proper to the Jewes policie Nation and times but in things of morall and common equitie will justifie other practises And how then you can escape in the way of Church government the lawfullnesse of appeales from lower Judicatories to higher and the lawfullnesse of Formes of publike prayer composed and prescribed with other particulars I see not But because you foresaw these and such like as that of a Nationall Church you here decline the old Testament and speake only of the New and but of a part only of that too namely that of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles as your words in both pages third and ninth intimate The Churches erected by the Apostles and the first Apostolike directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches recorded in the new Testament which reaches no farther then the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles But though you doe
not deale fairely in abridging the Scriptures and making your supreme rule so narrow as the Acts and Epistles and I might justly stand upon it to make you inlarge your rule to the books both of Old and new Testament yet well knowing the Acts of Apostles and Epistles will cast you I am well contented and most ready at that weapon alone to try it with you and care not in the present controversie of the Church-way as to let all other Authours so for the old Testament and that part of the New too the Gospells to stand by And if you can make good out of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles by any Apostolike direction patterne or example of those Primitive Churches directed by the Apostles many things you practise and maintaine as Ordination of Ministers by the people alone as your Church-covenant as a few private Christians to gather and constitute a Church as persons to be members of such Congregations where they live constantly many miles distant from their Ministers and the meeting places with other such I will yeeld the cause and if I make not good from the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles things mainly opposed by you but affirmed by us As that of particular Churches to consist of more then can meet in one place to be edified in all parts of worship with other such then blame me So that I may say of your Church-way and the questions between us as Tertullian answered long since some hereticks That if they were to be determined by the Scriptures they would not subsist Now as to the ground of this principle within you yeur consciences were possest with that reverence and adoration of the fullnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiency as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect c. First I answer Your ground here alledged doth not prove your supreame rule without you namely the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles to be compleatly sufficient to make the Churches of God perfect because that speakes as of the whole Scriptures that there is in them a compleat sufficiencie and not as of a part now though the Scriptures may be and are so full and perfect yet every part may not you can in reason conceive that the whole may be compleatly sufficient to all ends and uses for which it was intended when a part or parts may not suffice And that Scripture which you allude unto for proofe 2 Tim. 3. v. 16 17. speakes of the whole Scripture and not of a part only the Papists would have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text to signifie non totam sed omnem Scripturam and so would give that praise not to the whole body of the Scriptures but to particular parts of it Learned Chamier snewes the contrary how that the whole Scripture is here rather to be understood and he proves it by a threefold argument and in this great question between us and the Papists An Scriptura Christianum perfâ—…ctum reddat resolves the question to be understood of the whole canon in the Old and new Testament And so doth Dr Whitakers by which you may judge how unsufficient and short your first principle was being only a part of the Scriptures but not the whole and you may observe the fallaciousnesse of your reason propounded to argue from the whole to a part because the whole Scriptures have a compleat sufficiencie to make the Churches of God perfect therefore the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles have too Secondly I doe also adore the fullnesse of the Scriptures and God forbid that I should take from the Scriptures any thing God gives unto them or that which in the Scripture is attributed unto it but we must not give unto the Scriptures more then what God intended them for or what the Scripture affirmes of it selfe for that is to be wise above what is written and to adde unto the word and may be and hath been a ground of dangerous consequence in the Church of God and to cleare it from your own instances of exception Meere circumstances we except c. Now suppose some to speake as you doe and to be really acted also upon the same ground of the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures should yet affirme of the Scriptures without all exception of me 〈◊〉 circumstances and of the rules which the law of nature doth in common dictate and should say nothing must be practised no not in meere circumstances but by some direction from the word and as for the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate in them also the Scripture gives light how to doe them and thereupon should speake as you doe all along in this Section would not this prove inconvenient and trouble you in your Churches Nay suppose some should so extoll the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that they should hold them so perfect and sufficient for all Christians as to be a perfect rule for all civill government and that Chrstian common-wealths ought to be governed by lawes only there recorded and by no other which opinion in substance Carolostadius held That in Courts of justice Judges should not proceed according to humane laws but according to the law of Moses and so for Military practises should hold all the way of Warre must be founded upon the Scriptures and thereupon should clamour against any other art and way of Warre then what was practised there What would you reply to these men or what strength were there in such principles would not you answer them in what sense the Scriptures were perfect and how they must understand it Men have often by giving more to the most excellent creatures and things then the Scriptures allow fallen into great errors and mistakes The Papists and Ubiquitaries speake highly of the body of Christ and 't is all in the way of magnifying it and Schuvenckfeldius did boast himselfe to be the Assertor of the glory of the flesh of Christ in Heaven which other Preachers neglected or else opposed and yet all these held great errors about the body and humane nature of Christ under the notion of advancing it So in the present controversie by giving to the Scriptures that which God hath not given to them both is and may be a ground of error And therefore I referre you for the true sense of that question concerning the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to make the Churches of God perfect unto the answers our Protestant Divines give the Papists in that controversie about the perfection of the Scriptures And by the way let me commend to you and all the Ministers of the Church-way to study our Protestant writers as Whitakers Chamier c. against the Papists upon the Church and of the notes of the visible Church upon the controversie concerning the
I owne the Scripture for the rule rightly understanding it and in matters of Discipline and Church-order professe to walke by it desiring to be tied to the Scripture patterns particularly to the patterns of examples and precepts recorded in the new Testament provided this be understood in essentials and fundamentals of order in matters of perpetuall use and of a common reason to all times and places only I adde that in some things where in matter of order and externall government there may be no such cleare directions either by precept or example there generall rules of the word with deductions out of Scripture examples and from precepts by way of Analogie with rules of common prudence be taken in too Now the interpretation of this rule as I have laid it downe being rejected and the rule simply taken up without such limitations will produce a wilde and strange discipline and Church-order to practise all things recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles without distinction and difference of those times persons places and ours and on the other hand to practise nothing but what hath a cleare example or precept is strange too and in so doing reasonable men cannot become a Church society nor exercise Church communion And however in matters of externall government and administration of holy things in the visible Church some pretend to this to practise whatever they find recorded in the Scriptures and to practise nothing whatsoever they find not there yet none of the Independents no not the highest forme of them the Anabaptists nor the highest sort of Anabaptists who were called Apostolici from their pretending to imitate the Apostles in all things ever yet have or doe practise all patternes and examples recorded in the new Testament or are contented with them alone but practise somewhat over and above not particularly recorded in Scripture I could lay downe a catalogue of many particulars specified in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles not practised in your Churches nor in any Churches of the independent way as also of many things practised by you which we never read of in the Scriptures so that all the Independents are in many things according to the first patterne both defective and excessive But I referre the full handling of this to a Tractate I intend concerning the Scriptures How farre the Scriptures are a rule for all matters of Church government and order in the visible Church I adde only one thing for the Readers sake that they be carefull to understand this first principle of yours not so nakedly as you lay it downe in page 8 9 10 11. because it hath been is and may be a rock to split many on and an Ignis fatuus to lead many into waters instead of a sacred pillar of fire to guide to Heaven in a safe way This foolish imitation of the Apostles in all things in matters of externall order hath been and is the great foundation of evils on all hands both in many practises and points of Popery and amongst the Anabaptists as I could demonstrate in particulars Learned Danaeus in his Commentaries upon 1. Tim. cap. 5. speakes of it Schlusselburgius writes also that there is a sort of Anabaptists cal'd Apostolici so named because they professed to imitate the Apostles in all things they washed one anothers feet they held all things ought to be common they travailed up and downe without staffe shooes cloake money because of Christs words they went up to the tops of houses to preach because Christ had said what you have heard in the eare preach upon the house top Now how farre the want of these limitations and distinctions in this your first rule hath led some of you into errors and strange practises and may leade you further as into annoynting the sick with oyle baptising in rivers c. I leave you to consider of But yet this first and great principle upon which you went and reared up your new Church way how difficult and abstruse a rule and how doubtfull a ground-worke doe you make it before you passe from it by making that supposition upon it If the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And that you cannot professe that sufficiency of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules c. Now then brethren consider with your selves according to your owne grant how for all this principle of the Primitive patterne to guide you by yet it being so hard to know and find out the way and you not having that sufficiencie of knowledge to lay forth the rules how easily might you be out of the way then for all this principle and how can we indeed thinke otherwise of you being a few men and going by your selves So that supposing the Apostolicall directions and Primitive examples of the Churches not excluding the Old Testament and Gospels to be the only rule of the outward administration and government of the visible Church and granting these were more especially in your eye to guide and steere your practise by considering by your own confession there is so much difficulty to make these out and to lay downe what is a binding and standing direction and what not what is meerly circumstantiall and what not and how to apply many things which fall out to such rules and such examples recorded Yet wee may see how unsafe and dangerous it was for you and for a few persons to set up Churches and Church-government and we may hence learne what great use and need there is of Synods and Assemblies to draw out Church-government and discipline and still in all difficult cases to meet for the debating and determining of things And by the way let me admonish many of your followers of their boldnesse and rashnesle of determining in matters of Church-government and order holding all things about discipline and Church-government to be so manifestly and clearely laid downe in the Scriptures as the light of the Sunne and thereupon censuring many for not holding with them imputing it to their want of self-deniall and spirituall knowledge By this they may see their great Leaders judge otherwise who speaking upon the Scriptures being a compleate rule to make the Churches perfect put in a caution and declare They cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst them Now if the Apologists men so able cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge c. who yet according to their owne Narration tell us how they saw the darke part before many others and how they had all that light of the Non-conformists Reformed-churches New-England c. What shall we thinke of a few private illiterate Christians setting up of Churches and framing a government will this assure them though the Scriptures be a perfect rule for Church-government and this is the supreme rule
they goe by that therefore they are in the right certainly the great difficultie in knowing and finding out the directions and examples and in applying them aright and their weake knowledge will give ground sufficient to all reasonable men to suspect the contrary And for your selves Brethren the Reader hath greater reason to judge from what you here grant about the difficultie of the Scriptures in the Church-way and your insufficiencie and ignorance in many cases and to many queries that you might be out of the way then from the sufficiency of the Scriptures to make Churches perfect and your making the Scriptures your supreame rule that you only should be in the right and withall taking-in this that the Reformed Churches you depart from and all along reflect upon in this Apologeticall Narration holding the Scriptures in a true sense to have a perfection for Church-government and setting them up as the supreame rule to eye continually and having the great advantage of you knowing the directions and examples in Scripture better then you by reason of their great learning numbers long studying these points all you speake here of this principle as a ground to take men with and possesse the Readers of the truthof your way rather then theirs hath no strength in it but the scale of sufficiencie of knowledg and ability of finding out the rules and applying being heavier on the Reformed Churches side and the other scale of making the Scriptures the rule equall to yours also you must needs be found light compared with them But after your supposition of the great difficulty of understanding this rule and profession of the non-sufficiencie of your knowledge by which you weaken so much what you would gaine by the narration of setting up this first principle as the supreame rule without you yet before you leave it in the following words you seeme to affirme it Indeed interfeering and hovering about not knowing well where to light and to settle between the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to all Church matters and the difficultie of finding out the rules and directions As the precedent words and subsequent put together doe shew For you found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall but superstructorie also and those to you cleare and certaine and such as might well serve c. Now let the Reader judge if these words doe not not declare a sufficiencie of your knowledge without either Ifs or And 's But you must pardon me if I doe not beleeve you found principles enough superstructorie and that upon these two following grounds 1. Had you found principles enough superstructorie for the wel-being of your Churches and those cleare and certaine and such as might well serve to preserve your Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide you to heaven in a safe way How came it to passe that you made no better a use of them for the well-being of your Churches to have preserved them in peace and from offence but that in so short a time so many offences and differences should fall out and you go so uncomfortably to heaven doubting whether you were in the right way for Church-government and order 2. If you had found out principles enough superstructorie why did you not name them at least some of them you might have done well to have given the Reader a taste of them it would have given good content especially in such a Narration I am of opinion both upon your totall silence and upon some search into these points that besides the fundamentall and essentiall principles to the being of a visible Ministeriall Church you found not many superstructories laid downe particularly in the Primitive Churches either in practise or precept namely ordinary perpetuall c. And I doe desire you setting aside Fundamentall essentiall and substantiall principles that for the superstructories upon them and your deductions you would give me proofes from the Scripture for many of your practises setting aside generall rules of the word and common rules of reason and prudence And whereas you make the observation of so many of those particulars laid forth in the word to become a more certain evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if you were able to discerne them Had you exprest any of those particulars the Reader might have gained somewhat and I could have better told from your instances what to have answered you and might have shewne you the dissimilitude how they might not have inferr'd the rest but here as in other passages of your booke you find it safest to be in the clouds and to lie hid in generals But grant it for once you observed many particulars It followes not therefore from many to all But this is a point and principle wherein weake arguments will become certain evidence and cleare confirmation to you But let me hint only some things to you now because this discourse is but the answer of a Narration not of all arguments that may be brought you are mistaken both in your Observation and your cleare confirmation of what followes for you shall find that in the superstructories of the government of the Church there are but few particulars laid downe in the patterne and example of the Primitive Churches and those primitive practises are not such a rule given by God in matters of that nature as that all things then practised must be so in all after times or that nothing afterwards might be practised but what is found there For besides meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature there are in severall Churches other things tending to the better edification of those Churches to comelinesse decencie outward reverence order peace grounded upon generall rules of the word which in other Churches are not so by reason of the different customes of such countries and the diversities of times and places wherein they were For that is comelinesse and reverence in one country which is not in another So that my observation of so few particular superstructories recorded in the Primitive Churches namely of common ordinary perpetuall order with the different practises in the severall Churches recorded in the new Testament and sometimes in the same Church in many things of the outward administration of externall order are sound proofes to me there are not rules nor ruled cases for many superstructories in externall Government And as to that clause which followes next in this Section for all such cases wherein you saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction you still professedly suspended untill God should give you further light not daring to eeke out what was defective in your light in matters divine with humane prudence c. For answer I must tell you you either saw that in the Scripture that we cannot see by all search or else you practised many things that have no cleare resolution from Scripture neither in example
or direction and pray in your Reply to this answer shew me what cleare Resolution you saw from Scripture for your Church-covenant If it be so cleare shew it us What came the word of God out from you or came it to you only hath God given us eyes to see and know the mysteries of his kingdome to see such things as no glorious hypocrite in the highest forme can see and can we not see what is common to hypocrites as well as to true Saints Certainly had Mr Goodwin had such cleare resolution from Scripture for the Church-covenant he would never have returned such an answer after so long a time of receiving Mr Iohn Goodwins letter written with such Giant-like confidence against the Church-covenant as to desire after many weeks longer day to give satisfaction in regard Church-covenant lay so deepe and remote amongst the fundamentals of Church-fellowship which debt I beleeve was never yet paid to this day I should be loath for my part in any thing I practise or hold to have a cleare resolution from Scripture to put off my Brother for proofe of it till to morrow Give me an Apostolicall example or rule if you can where ever the people alone made Ministers why did you not here suspend how durst you be made Ministers in this way by the people alone and either be Ministers without Imposition of hands at all or if any Imposition not by the laying-on of the hands of the Presbyterie but the hands of the people both which are not onely without any example of Scripture but against the Primitive patterne and example Give me a Primitive patterne wherein baptized persons professing the faith of Christ and walking so may not be admitted to Fellowship and communion in the Lords Supper without professing their membership of some particular Congregation Give me a word either of precept or example where ever the lay-Elders did examine persons professing the faith whether they were fit for Church-fellowship and thereupon did propound their names in the Congregation with many such particulars so that you have dared to eeke out divine matters with your owne inventions not indeed with humane Prudence but against humane Prudence and reason as that instance in the way of your making Ministers by the people clearely shewes And I desire that you and others would consider what I say upon this occasion that this is so preposterous and irrationall a rule that had you indeed or should others observe it to practise nothing in matter of externall order unlesse you have a cleare resolution from Scripture in an example or direction you had never met together in a Church-way nor can any society or company of men meet to those ends of constituting a Church and Government and walking in the practise of it but that some things must be done not particularly mentioned in the Scriptures As for your calling humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation I judge that the want of it in Reformation hath still proved fatall as amongst the Anabaptists Brownists and in New-England also till humane prudence eeked out what was defective in the way of their gathering Churches at the first and till humane prudence punished by banishment and imprisonment under the name of disturbers of the civill peace many members of their Churches for Familisme Anabaptisme c. without which courses and others or the like kinde their Churches and Common-wealth had beene long agoâ—… ruined And I much wonder you stile humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation and make Reformation of the Church and humane prudence so opposite especially you your selves knowing and expressing in the 28th page of your Apologie the calling of this Assembly of Divines The way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State I suppose you call it not the way of God as holding there is a cleare resolution from Scripture in any Apostolicall primitive patterne of the Churches erected by the Apostles of an Aâ—…embly so chosen by the Magistrates to draw up a govâ—…ment and direction in worship for so many Châ—…s many of which Churchâ—… have not so much as any one of their members there but onely a way of God according to generall rules and Prudence and so wisely assumed by the Parliament and yet I hope you and your party will not afterwards if the Assembly should determine against Independencie stile that the fatall errour to Reformation But how ever we gaine thus much from your being members of the Assembly voting in it and calling your selves by that name Members of the Assembly of Divines namely a cleare answer that humane prudence is not alwayes a fatall errour to Reformation and that a man needs not alwaies suspend his practise though he have not a cleare resolution of example or direction from the Primitive Churches witnesse the acceptance of your being chosen to the Assembly As to that Metaphoricall expression of yours the ground of your judging humane prudence so fatall to Reformation Least by sowing any peece of the old garment to the new you should make the rent worse I answer if that be not understood aright and soberly it hath been and will be the ground of great deformation in the Church and of running into errours on the right hand Thus the Anabaptists least they should sow any peece of the old garment unto the new renounce their Baptisme and the Brownists will have the materiall Churches pull'd downe and our Ministers and Congregations quite made null and all our Ministers and Congregations newly ordained and constituted The ground of which mistakes ariseth from not considering the difference between the gathering and planting a Church out of Iudaisme and Heathenisme and the purging and building up a Church corrupted and fallen As for that promise of encouragement made to such a suspension which you say in your publike Assemblies was for your comfort often mentioned you should have done well to have quoted the text and then I might have examined the place whether there had been a foundation for any such promise to a few persons in a particular Congregation withdrawing from the fellowship of other Churches and forbearing all things in matter of externall order though agreed upon by other Churches without a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction that in so doing they should know more in the matter of order and government A second Principle we carried along with us in all our resolutions was not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto our selves for the future which we in like manner made continuall profession of upon all occasions We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of our conformity and therefore in a jealousie of our selves we kept this reserve which we made open and constant professions of to alter and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a mis-understanding of the rule Which principle we wish were next to
that most supreame namely to be in all things guided by the perfect will of God enacted as the most sacred law of all other in the midst of all other laws and Canons Ecclesiasticall in Christian States and Churches throughout the world This is a dangerous principle to goe by in the Church of God excellent for unstable men and wanton wits fitted for libertins and running heads that love no fixed nor setled government and serves well to the humour of a few particular persons but pernitious and sad for Nationall Churches and Kingdomes a reserve indeed and a good back doore to go out at from Brownisme to Anabaptisme and from Anabaptisme to Sebaptisme and from thence to Famialisme and Socinianisme It is a ready prepared way for those that would draw men into errours under the pretence of new light to worke upon and so to lead men from one errour to another till there be no end Which kind of principle of uncertainty in matters of religion the Remonstrants did hold forth in those sad times of the troubles of the Churches in the Netherlands that so they might overturne all formes and harmonies whereby the Churches both within themselves and one towards another might be setled and associated that was one of the scepticall rules of the Arminians dies diem docet But this principle of yours so carried all along in your resolutions seemes to crosse that first principle of the Scriptures the supreame rule and perfect for Church government for in effect it is as much as to hold that the government and way of the Church visible is so uncertaine and doubtfull as that little or none may be positively laid downe and concluded as Iure Divino Now according to this second principle and profession of yours why doe you make such outeries and tragedies in the Church forsaking all Churches for you know not what even for that which you made open and constant professions upon all occasions you would not be bound to and pray how doth this agree with your principle of Church government that it is in all particulars perpetuall and unchangeable whenas you will be changing it so often But certainely when you first fell to your Church-way and took up this principle you were not resolved what way to follow but thought that in some yeares by adding now and then and forsaking this and the other you might attaine to something in the end But let me aske you ought men in the matters of Religion and in things of the Kingdome of Christ to be Scepticks and so irresolved or ought not men to be perswaded in their consciences But I hope the Parliament will observe this great principle you were first acted by and still are in all your Church-way and will see how dangerous the tolerating of your way will be for though you should for present hold nothing much different from the established rule yet being allowed what may you not come to according to this principle how shall any State be sure of you long what you will hold What if you should bring in community of goods baptizing in rivers the holy Kisse into your Assemblies at the beginning and ending of your Ordinances annointing sick persons with oyle it is but according to your principle And we see you make so much of this principle and are so in love with it that you wish it next to your first principle enacted as the most sacred Law of all other to live and walke by it in Christian States and Churches throughout the world and I am perswaded if you would speake out you wish it instead of all other Laws and Canons 〈◊〉 You are not content your selves to be Scepticks and loose in the government of the visible Church but you would have all others to be liâ—… unto you not to make their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future but to make continuall professions upon all occasions of altering But let us consider what may be the reasons of such a passionate desire that this principle were enacted in all Churches I conceive these following 1. That others changing and altering as well as you the imputation of inconstancy and lightnesse might not stick upon you 2. That so you might gaiâ—… more to your way and Church by possessing them with this principle having this advantage to worke upon and this engine to draw the people with There is nothing you have concluded on but you are free and at choice still to take what seemes most probable to you whereas if men be set downe and resolved they are not so apt to change 3. That so you might not as you pretend block up the way to further light but keep alive that principle of New light and New truths and that men must not content themselves with old truths and the old light but they must seeke out after New light whereas establishment and setling of points upon serious debates and disputes both in points of doctrine with the fundamentals and substantials of discipline as the truths of God and the way for men to walke in upon such Scriptures and reasons will shut out such search as you conceive but this is a mistake to imagine that if any evident light from Scripture should come in afterwards especially considering that reformed Churches in their confessions and Articles hold that particular Churches may erre and may receive increase of knowledge and for matters of Discipline declare particularly that in the accessaries accidentals circumstantials Churches have liberty to change upon inconveniences and different occasions that may arise that they are ever the further off from it But this principle of irresolution and uncertainty in matters of Religion upon the ground of New light and New truths as it is commonly laid downe and drunke in now by men of the Church-way makes men unsatisfied restlesse doubtfull in their present practise and upon searching when they can find none the Devill and their own corruptions will make some and brings them old errors for New truths and men being possest by some that principles are to be new studied and that there are New truths and New light never known before Satan is not wanting to raise up one or other to vent errors under those notions as we see at this day in the Antinomians and the Anabaptists their great argument wherby they take so many being that of New light and New truths which God hath revealed in these times 4. I hope this principle so rooted in you and your frailty in the former way of conformity may be a reserve for you to come off from Independencie to Presbyterie upon the debates of the Assembly and from your Church-way to the way of the reformed Churches which I heartily pray may be the fruit of this principle so openly and constantly profest and am not wholly out of hope especially of some of you Thirdly We are able to hold forth this true and just Apologie unto the world That in the
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
other men I briefly suggest these following things to you and the Reader 1. That by your owne concession set formes of prayer are not unlawfull because they be set and framed before hand and not conceived suddenly wherein you grant that the publicke prayers in the Assemblies may be premeditated framed and studied before hand as well as Sermons which concession takes off one of the strongest Arguments used against set-formes of prayer 2. I answer it is not against the fruites of Christs ascension into Heaven and of giving gifts unto men for the Ministery that they doe not alwayes in all their prayers exercise their own gifts of invention and composall of prayer for so the using of the Lords prayer should be unlawfull at any time for the Ministers which is no prayer framed out of their owne meditations and studie and their owne gifts 3. I answer there is a great dissimilitude in many respects betweene Sermons and prayers so that it will not hold though Sermons ought to be framed alwaies out of our owne gifts that therefore prayers alwayes should be And this I will demonstrate in a Discourse of the lawfulnesse of using set-formes of prayer composed by others 4. It is not against the fruit of Christs ascension nor the gifts given then for Ministers in some instructions and teachings of the people to make use of some thing sometimes in publike either doctrinall or practicall not framed out of their owne gifts but by others As suppose the reading in the Congregation to the people often some confession of faith or some exhortation about maine things of use to them having still the free use of their giftsto preach besides 5. Suppose you five should joyne together out of your owne meditations and studies exercising your owne gifts to frame publicke prayers of maine petitions needfull for the state of all your Churches whether might they be used by you in your publick Assemblies 6. Whether each of you by your selves framing upon meditation and studie a set-forme of prayer may not use that often in your Assemblies without sinne having also your liberty to adde conceived prayers at the same time But to put all out of question about the second instance I judge that set formes of prayer prescribed taken in both senses that is neither made nor framed out of the gifts of the persons who use them nor left at liberty but by publike consent agreed upon to be used are not unlawfull to be practised but the Scriptures give us examples for such prayers as in 2 Chron. 29. 30. Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang praises with gladnesse and they bowed their heads and worshipped And therefore the use of set formes of prayer framed and composed by others and prescribed having example in Scripture as well as conceived are no additament nor superaddition but the reformed Churches in practising both practise most safely according to Scripture patternes and your Churches using only one sort and not the other leave to follow examples recorded in Scripture and we may more justly cast upon you the taking away from Scripture taking away being a like branded by Scripture as adding But you doe unjustly cast upon the reformed Churches adding to the word the Scriptures holding out examples for both And for the further clearing your mistakes in this great ordinance of publike prayer I shall only adde this all that God hath commanded either in the old Testament or new about publike prayer is that prayers be made in the publike Assemblies and that those prayers be of petitions for their matter and kind lawfull according unto the will of God directed unto God alone in the Name of Christ with humility fervency faith and such like but that God hath required that as oft as Ministers pray they must put up prayers framed by their own meditations and studies out of their own gifts and that the words and phrases must be various and diversified or else their prayers are not lawfull there is never such a sillable to proove it in the Scripture But we have examples of both namely set and conceived and Gods servants used both indifferently and we may use both according as we see occasion and as we find may make most for edification and Gods glory And I desire you in your Reply to this Answer to give any instance to the contrary and I shall thanke you for I seek truth and peace and not victory nor contention And let me mind you whilst you goe about in this instance to cleare your selves of additaments you are in this and other instances guilty of taking away from the Word falling short as in other things practising above what is written besides your different way of practising in some things So likewise for the government and discipline in the Churches however the practise of the reformed Churches is in greater matters to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbytery of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government yet so as in their judgments they allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction to be exercised by the Elders thereof within it selfe Yea and our owne Mr Cartwright holy Baynes and other old Non-conformists place the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church with the consent of the Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed they doe subject them to such Presbyteriall and Provinciall Assemblies as the proper refuge for appeales and for compounding of differences amongst Churches which combination of Churches others of them therefore call Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised And withall we could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them for that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination we did not imagine We found also those non-conformists that wrote against the Episcopall government in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitude of believers at Ierusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the new Testament to assert that it would not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts and elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times We found it also granted by them all
infallibly and necessarily a particular Church to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation yet they never intended it as against the reformed Churches Now you know the saying Authoris aliud agentis parva est authâ—…ritas But shew us where ever the old non-conformists as against the reformed Churches held so It will appeare by Gerson Bucerus and by the practise of the reformed Churches in Geneva and Holland for which Mr Robinson so objects against them in his Apologie that though they were against the government of Bishops and Diocesan Churches that is of a head Church over many Congregations united to it yet not of a particular Church of such a City consisting of many particular Congregations And as for that you take for granted by all that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation it is denied you For some Divines as Danaeus and Cartwright as I remember hold it not necessary for every small Congregation in villages but for Cities and more populous places to which the lesser villages being conjoyned have the benefit and support of all the Elders and Ministers in the exercising of government As for that you say Others of them calling the combination of Churches Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised that others was Mr Parker who in his Politia Ecclesiastica gives us this distinction and was the first who brought it up as ever I read of who differing from Mr Baynes and other non-conformists and most Divines of the reformed Churches in the subject of the power of the keyes giving it to the body of the Church agreeing therein too much with you no wonder he called particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae But as he was mistaken in the first receptacle and subject of the power of the keyes so he might be in his distinction of Ecclesiae primae and ortae For the first Churches namely that of Ierusalem Rome Ephesus with others were not particular Congregations but Churches consisting of many Congregations severall meeting places some preaching in one place and others in other places but governed by the Elders in common which City Churches were the first Churches still first planted by the Apostles and particular Congregations in villages were Ecclesiae ortae the City Churches in this sence being the mothers and the particular Congregations rather the daughters the full proofe and demonstration whereof I referre to a tractate I intend about the nature of the visible Church But by what I have answered upon this head the Reader may observe there is not all granted which you tooke for granted from the Reformed Churches and the Non-conformists and what is yeelded slowes from another spring and is upon another ground writing against Diocesan Bishops quite another controversie but otherwise even when Non-conformists have come to write against the separation and upon the nature of a visible Church as Mr Ball a they hold the contrary And for learned men of other Churches even when they writ against Episcopacie yet they were farre from holding that a particular visible Church was only a particular Congregation as Gersom Bucerus in his answer to D â— Downham A particular Church is any companie of beleevers conjoyned in the observation of holy ordinances and united to one Presbyterie keeping their meetings in one or more places For the number of Parishes in which they meet is a thing accidentall being nothing at all to the essence of a particular Church And even the Non-conformists you speake of as it appeares by the wary expressions your selves use of them namely infallibly and necessarily doe even give the cause For that is as you imply the Non-conformists in their answers could not denie but probably the number of beleevers were so numerous as to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first timâ—…s though not infallibly and rationally though not necessarily Now in points of externall order and government which depend upon the story and circumstances of time and place how many things are there practised but of presumption though not of certainty and though they cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved so as to stop all mouthes and all that the wit of man can possibly finde out yet if the things asserted can be but probably proved upon better reasons then the contrary we may encline to that as to the safer part How many practises and tenents have you in your Church-way that cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved but stronger answers may be and are given to the reasons you bring for them then any the Non-conformists could give to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem and yet you hold to your principles for all that and it is a rule hath been pleaded by some of you that in things of that nature where the Scripture is not expresse but holds them out most probably though not infallibly and necessarily yet we ought to encline to that As for Mr Baynes answer though directed against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem it is no whit satisfactorie nor concluding to any man who is of another judgement as the Reader may reade in the 15. and 16. page of the Dioces Tryall To the 3d particular under the first head namely what you allow and grant about a Church and the Government that you could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one Citie at the first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their owne Elders that also preached to them and that you could not but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of your severall Congregations for matter of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their owne Elders c. In way of answer I must first complaine of your old fault the slippery and uncertaine expressions used in the relation of what you owne and allow about a Church in those phrases the first Churches ordinarily and at first I demand the reason of you why you put in ordinarily and at first was it not because you fore-saw the Church of Ierusalem and some few others recorded in the New Testament though not in the first Chapter of the Acts and at the beginning yet would at last by the 8. of the Acts and Acts 21. amount to more then could meet in one Congregation and therefore you exprest it so Is this faire dealing or what other reason can you give for using such doubtfull expressions the question is not betweene you and us whether all the Churches and most of the Churches or whether at first and in the beginning of them they consisted of no more in one City then to make up one Congregation but whether the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles be it first or last sooner or later gives any patterne or example of
a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ—… and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what râ—…le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
put it in every Citie which we affirme not nor need not to carry the cause against you for if we can prove it in some Cities or in any Cities that the number of Converts did arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations then we prove the Scripture holds out a Presbyteriall Classicall Church and overthrow your grand principle about a particular Church And Reader observe the fallacie of these Apologists how in the manner of their expression and as they propound it though the thing may be true yet they alter quite the state of the Question For though in every Citie where the Apostles came you could not imagine the number of Converts should be so great nor we neither yet in some Cities you might have well imagined it as in Ierusalem and Rome But Brethren why will you who are Schollers and without question weighed well all your words and manner of expressions having so many heads in the framing this Apologie deale thus with the Reader in a Narration speake truly though you did not imagine the number of Converts were so many in every City yet did not you imagine the number might be so great in some Cities as in Ierusalem and if still you will not imagine it for the helping of your imagination consider whether you have not more reason if not infallible and necessary yet probable and rationall to imagine the Church of Hiâ—…rusalem consisting of so many thousands of people and having so many Ministers to preach unto them as 12. Apostles besides the seventy Disciples and they meeting in so many distinct houses and not having the power and command of any publicke large place or liberty through those times to fit it for such multitudes to heare the word joyne in prayer and Sacraments should have severall and sundry Congregations rather then to imagine all those should make but one standing Congregation to meet in one place and roome 2. It is stated otherwise carried higher then need be granted and that in all your expressions of it for the Scriptures may hold forth a combination of the Elders of many Churches for government and yet not be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles It may be allowed and agreeable to the word have a jus divinum permissivum upon generall rules of the word and according to the rules of the law of nature and of Prudence yea and may have some examples of it and yet not amount to a divine Institution many who hold the thing will not in those phrases owne it 2. These Elders of many Congregations may have a power of Government in common over all and yet not be the first seat of Church-power for it is not denied but some particular Congregations having a competent number of Presbyters both have and may exercise Church-power before any such combination is or can be 3. These Elders combined may have Church-power to rule these Congregations so combined and yet not have a compleate and entire seat of Church-power but a power liable to appeales unto Synods and generall Assemblies The question betweene you and us is whether Classes or Presbyteries have power in Ecclesiasticall matters as Ordination Excommunication c. within the number of Congregations so combined or may by warrant from the word exercise any power in Church matters but in their owne particular Congregations the question is not whether it be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power As you state it you strangely mistate the question to lay it downe in these words That the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first seat of Church-power over each Congregation so combined whereas the opinion of the Reformed Churches is quite contrary not holding Classes and Synods to be the first subject of Church-power from whence it is consequently derived and conferred upon particular Churches but that particular congregations having power in themselves and amongst themselves equall power doe in Classes and Synods conferre and execute in common their owne power even as those who are colleagues and equall members of some politicall societie 4. The power which particular officers and Presbyters of combined congregations may have over particular members of those Churches they teach not ordinarily doth not amount to the challenging and assuming an authority over those Churches they feed and teach not your expression is a mistake it is not an assuming a power and authority by some over other Churches but it is a power of the whole and of themselvs too even those particular Churches in their officers over particular members as in the Parliament no member hath power over another more then another over him but the whol hath power over all the particulars for the clearing of which the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland speake fully in their Reformation of Church government in Scotland cleared page 24 25. And for the close of this second head wherein you stand upon what you are not satisfied in but disallow if you would impartially consider that the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles doe as well hold out grounds yea and more indubitable as I shall make evident in a particular Tractate of the visible Church that the first particular Churches planted by the Apostles consisted of more Congregations and distinct meeting places then of one only Congregation you will acknowledge that where there are many Presbyters to feed and rule and many more Christians living in a vicinity then can meet in one place it is not the most safe and allowed way to retaine the government of each Congregation thus within themselves neither that it is an additament in the reformed Churches to practise so but rather an additament on their part who living in a City where the number of beleevers are so numerous as to make many meeting places there to make these places and persons such distinct Churches as to manage all things each one within themselves and not to grow into one for government And I am so farre versed in these controversies that I challenge you five to give me an example of any City where it is probable the multitude of beleevers were so numerous as to make many meeting places that ever they were governed and ruled but in common or ever called Churches but Church still called the Church of Corinth and the Church of Ierusalem I foresee only one instance that can be probably alledged that in Rom. 16. 1. of the Church which is at Cenchrea which Cenchrea was a part of Corinth and neare to Corinth yet named a Church as well as the Church of Corinth but the insufficiencie of that ground I shall at large shew in that Tractate of the visible Church which Primitive practise hath so farre wrought with some of the reformed Churches as those of Holland that in great Cities where the number of their people
are so many as they cannot meet in one place but have more meeting places yet in imitation of the Scriptures giving that ground to some who have askt them a reason they make City Churches but one and the Ministers are Ministers in common of them all preaching in their courses in the severall meeting places and governed in common and this they doe to keep nearest to Apostolicall practise whereas now in the Countrey where villages are and the meetings are scattered they doe not all preach to all And to adde this further to shew your unsafe way of practising in the way of your particular Congregations over the reformed Churches and our Churches in England your Congregations as in London where the meeting place is and the Ministers reside is made up of members as of some living in London so of some in Surrey Middlesex Hartfordsheire Essex where they have fixum domicilium being twenty miles asunder and many members meeting but sometimes in a Moneth where neither Ministers can oversee them nor members watch over one another not knowing what the conversation of each other is which yet are brought as the maine grounds for your Church-fellowship which non-residencie of the members from one another and of the officers from so many of the members whether it overthrow not and be not point blank against many of your principles of the Church-way I leave to your selves to judge besides that it is without any Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles the Churches being still stiled according to the places where they lived and met as in Rom. 1. 7. To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be Saints And so in the Epistles to the Corinthians To the Church of God which is at Corinth And I desire you to give me any Primitive patterne of any who belonged to the Church of Rome Corinth Ierusalem that is were standing members of those Churches who lived and inhabited ten miles twenty five miles c. round about those Cities so that we find here in this third instance namely in the government and discipline of the Churches as well as in the first instance in the qualification of your members that the additament is on your sides and not on the reformed Churches To the third head namely the reasons couched and hinted for your own practise and against the practise and way of the reformed Churches to the first reason I answer as the relating of the state of the questions was not proper so this argument hinted here is not properly expressed for their might be such a Presbyteriall Church and government as is maintained against you namely but two or three distinct meeting places and yet not Churches rising to such a numerous multiplication nor Apostles staying to the setting up of Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication But pray what doe you meane by those expressions We did not imagine but might you not or could you not have imagined it though you did not nor would not and what by this that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to make such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination Doe you carry the words in reference only to that numerous multiplication or simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay so long in any City as to set up any Churches at all Now if you will have your words interpreted in the first sense then judge how improper the speech and narration of your mind is for then it should have gone thus that the Apostles should stay the setting up of so many Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication for the denying the setting up of any Churches and at all agree not with the following words untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication the former being a diminitive nay a negative and cannot agree to such an augmentative as the latter besides your first words carried in reference to the following have no strength to proove what you bring them for namely what you allowed and practised or what you disallowed for though the Apostles should not stay so long as the setting up so many Churches as might arise to such a numerous multiplication of severall and sundry Congregations yet there might be such a Presbyteriall classicall Church a Church consisting of more then could meet in one place which is the controversie between us But if you understand your words simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay the setting up of any Churches at all I desire you to remember your own principles and expressions in many books and discourses of your way that the Apostles were the founders of the first Churches as at Corinth Rome and for Ierusalem especially which is the particular Church we most stand upon the Apostles staid long enough there to set up not onely any Churches at all but many to make such a Presbyteriall combination as is stood for as will appeare both by Acts 8. Acts 15. Acts 21. and it is the judgement of Mr Robinson that Ierusalem was never without some of the Apostles there which the two first chapters of the Galathians give a strong ground for besides the many Presbyters that belonged thereunto And so for the Church of Ephesus Paul stayed at one time in those parts three yeares together long enough to make so many Churches as might make a Presbyteriall combination which that of the Acts chap. 20. vers 17 18 25 28 29 31. doe give hints enough for if the nature of an answer to a Narration would permit to draw them out at length To the second reason hinted that those precepts Obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure meant of the Pastours and teachers set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in those commands Wives obey your own husbands c. I answer that in Scripture a particular Church consisting of more Congregations then one and the Ministers and Elders feeding them and governing them in common as at Ierusalem and as it is in the Low Countries in Cities there as at Amsterdam c. all the Ministers and Elders are their own Ministers and Elders as the husbands are the owne of their wives and those Scriptures are to be understood of all their Pastors and Ministers and not of some only or in respect of some and not of the rest and it is as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in that command Wives obey your owne husbands that obey your Elders c. be meant not of some but of them all 2. In Churches by their combination consisting of many Congregations where ordinarily some Pastors and teachers feed some Congregations and not the rest Ministers being fixed some to that Congregation and others to other Congregations yet there being a government in common by all the Presbyters of
those Congregations in all weighty matters and greater cases that fall out those precepts of obey your Elders and them that are over you reach to all the Elders as well as to those that particularly and ordinarily preach to them and however it is true such places are especially understood of them yet not of them only and alone as excluding others as your argument carried it but including others who are over them too And to answer you by your own instance given of servants obey your own governours as by vertue of that text particular servants are to obey their own Masters so by the same text each particular servant and all of them together of such a Company and Hall in the things and rules of their calling for the publike good of that Societie they are to obey and be subject to the whole Company namely the particular masters of other servants as to their own masters yea and to submit to the common Orders and good Rules of such a Hall and Corporation though their particular Masters doe not vote for but against them 3. Those Rulers who are of the Presbytery are not forraigne nor extrinsicall to the Congregations but intrinsicall and naturall as well as their particular Elders so that another without themselves doth not beare rule over them but all of them together by common consent doe rule every one which is a most mild and free forme of Church government for the proofe of which I shall not enlarge but referre you for satisfaction to what is said to this point both by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland and by some Churches from beyond the seas in their Letters upon occasion of your Apologie 4. It is a fallacious way of reasoning from the oeconomicall relations and government of husbands over wives and fathers over children and masters over servants and their subjection and obedience to husbands c. unto the Ecclesiasticall and Politicall because it is not to speake ad idem for in each of these the way of government is different for instance in those oeconomicall relations a woman can have but one husband one man can be but her husband and one man a father and the wife and child cannot Pelinquish them diâ—…avow them though very bad nor deny those duties they owe them in those relations though censured by the Church but they are to obey them which yet holds not in the members of a particular Congregation to Elders and Ministers that are unworthy and excommunicated that the members must be subject to them The Royalists that argue so from that subjection and obedience which children owe their fathers to subjects subjection and obedience to Princes and the Hierarchicall men that argue from what children owe to natural parents though wicked and ungodly to what the people owe to wicked ministers are answered at large and you know what Mr Robinson and many of your way say to that Now the same will serve to answer your comparisons that the places hold not alike between the people and the Elders and the wives and their husbands Mr Baynes answers in the last page of his Diocesans Tryall that which is objected touching Pastors and Fathers That the similitude holds not in all things parents and sheapheards are absolutely parents and sheapheards be they good or evill but spirituall parents are no longer so then they doe accordingly behave themselves 5. The very instances you give of wives obey your own husbands and servants your own governours doth not therefore only tye them to civill subjection and obedience to husbands and Masters exempting them from subjection to any others but they are subject to the Magistrates in the Common-wealth and to common-Lawes notwithstanding so neither doth the Scriptures obey your Elders c. supposing the full latitude of those Scriptures were of the Elders of particular Congregations forbid or exempt men from that Ecclesiasticall subjection and obedience which concernes them as they stand in relation to the community To the third Reason hinted for your selves and against the reformed Churches that the Elders of other Congregations should have power and rule over Churches which they doe not teach and feed ordinarily by vertue of those forementioned precepts was to you a question c. I answer Suppose three or foure Congregations in one great Towne should have Ministers in common to teach and feed them ordinarily as in Holland would you in such a case yeeld to a Presbyteriall combination if you say you would then the case is determined for us and thus I judge it was in the Acts of the Apostles in Primitive Churches but if you answer you would not yeeld to such a classicall government then I reply 't is not for want of such Ministers teaching you and feeding ordinarily that you will not obey but upon some other ground and then this argument is lost Secondly I answer your ruling Elders doe not feed nor teach you ordinarily but only governe you and yet by vertue of those forementioned precepts you obey them and are subject to them so that this is no good argument against the lawfulnesse of having power and authority over those whom men teach not ordinarily for then what becomes of the Ruling Elders in the Church who are neither Pastors nor Teachers To the fourth Reason drawn from Corporations who have the power and priviledge of life and death within themselves which kind of power you would have I answer you cannot frame a good argunment from Corporations and civill power to bodies Ecclesiasticall and spirituall power and I might give you the many differences alledged by your selves between civill power and Ecclesiasticall and the different manner of dispensation but I must not enlarge here only referre you for this to Mr Robinson Mr Burroughs and Dr Ames 2. Corporations goe according to the Lawes of the Land and to their Charters agreed upon and made in Parliaments they make not themselves a Corporation nor goe not according to private rules and orders to passe sentence of death c. but are ruled though they have Officers as Major and Aldermen by the Laws of the Land and so going they may more safely have a power within themselves but your particular Congregations set up your selves without leave of Magistrates or Ministers not proceeding upon common rules of government in sentences of Excommunication c. agreed by Synods but only upon your own wills and private rules which you have fancied are laid down in Scripture 3. Corporations though they judge their members and passe sentence of life and death within themselves yet sometimes nay often in greater cases and offences their inhabitants are tried and sentences passed upon them in other Courts of Justice and that when they would proceed against them yet the matter is carried higher to be tried If you would grant this in the Corporations to your Congregations that Assemblies and Synods might judge and passe sentence upon your members as oft
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ—… suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common
exception laid into all mens thoughts against your Congregationall way it 's both a just and strong Argument against it and that which many of your way when it hath been objected to them have confessed there is no remedy nor help in such cases but advice and counsell all must be left to Christ Christ will take care of his own way they had not found out this allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages which you have here propounded but I shall labour to make evident that all you bring by way of answer in declaration of your judgements and practise doth not satisfie this objection And first for your judgements in the principles you hold and lay downe I shall endeavour to prove that you have no Scripture grounds nor Primitive patterns for such principles and such a way in such cases Secondly Besides that these principles have no footing in Scripture and so they are no allowed remedy for miscarriages c. are not nor will not be a sufficient remedy for miscarriages nor reliefe for wrongfull sentences nor powerfull effectuall meanes to reduce a Church c. For the first I shall take it for granted you being wise men that in such a point as this being the maine point of difference betwen you and the Presbterians and at such a time as this you would bring the strongest Scriptures and grounds you had for your sacred principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches namely of submission of Churchrs and for that other principle of pronouncing that heavy sentence of non-communion against a Church or Churches and if I can shew the invalidity and weaknesse of these brought by you a man may conclude ther 's no feare of what 's behind Now a man would wonder that wise men as you are should except against a government received so generally amongst the reformed Churchâ—…s and blessed so from Heaven in the effectualnesse of it for the space of so many yeares as a sufficient remedy not only to reduce men from heresies and schisme but to prevent Churches from falling into heresie schisme c. which is more and goe set up a new way so different and so distastfull to the reformed Churches and all upon pretences of no sound proofe in Scripture for such a government because there is not an Apostolicall direction either in example or precept for it and in the meane time to contend for such a government wherein yourselves cannot deny but hath fallen out strange miscarriages and you tell us an unhappy story for proofe and yet the way and course you have substituted for remedy hath neither example nor precept in the word of God to practise any title of all that you relate to us and besides that the course prescribed by you is not commanded in the word it is no whit so rationall nor conducible to the ends you appoint it for as we will shew presently Now for the Scriptures brought by you the first is 1 Cor. 10. 32. Give none offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Gentiles nor to the Church of God where first the Reader may observe you alter the text putting Churches of God instead of Church of God and then you adde they live amongst The alteration I suppose you make upon this ground for feare this text in the reading of it should hint that truth how the visible Church in Scripture is taken for more then one particular Congregation the addition they live amongst to make it a seeming ground for Churches in a vicinitie whereas the Apostle speakes of the Church of God generally all the Churches whether we live amongst them or farre from them and the scope of the Apostle in this place is upon the occasion of that particular offence which might arise to some Corinthians from eating meat sacrificed to Idols having been told that this is sacrificed to Idols to lay down a generall rule to all Christians against giving offence to any whether Jewes Gentiles or Christians under which three ranks all men then in those times were comprehended Now pray tell me how will you make this text to prove that Churches offending and distering among themselves must submit themselves to the most full and open triall and examination of other neighbour Churches offended and how will you from this place draw ouâ—… a power for neighbour Churches to send unto and require this of the Churches who have offended them This Scripture if all Interpreters understand it that I have consulted with layes downe a rule that every particular Christian and so all Christians must so walke as to become all things to all men to please all men in all things lawfull as the 33 verse interprets it and to give none offence But where doth this Scripture speake and how doth it affirme that if either Churches or particular Christians doe practise things that offend other Churches they who are offended have power and authority to send to them and to call them to the most full and open triall and examination and that such who are challenged to offend must submit to such a judiciall and open triall before all commers In this text there is no more said of the Church of God then of the Jews and Gentiles who must not be offended neither and will you allow Jewes and Gentiles offended by things done in your Churches to call your Churches to an account and you must submit This text reaches to Churches that live in other Countries and unto particular Christians though they be not members of any such instituted Church as you speake of so that by vertue of this text we ought to give them no offence but will you grant that Churches of other Countries and Kingdomes may call Churches in another Kingdome to an open triall and examination and send their messengers to question them and thereupon pronounce sentence of renouncing all Christian communion with them or that every particular man offended may call Churches to an account and they are bound to submit to hearing and tryall I will give you one instance I am much offended at the great rent and difference that was betwixt Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and at Mr Simpsons setting up a new Church and at all that great bitternesse betwixt those Churches and I am much offended at the Church of Arnheim for letting passe that schisme and all those differences never questioning it especially questioning Mr Bridges Church Now have I a power by vertue of this precept to call both you and your Churches to an account and to require of you a most full and open tryall before all commers and are you bound to submit to it answer me this question in your Reply and you shall see what I will say to you in my Rejoinder For that other Scripture 1 Tim. 5. 22. Neither be partakers of othâ—… mens sinnes that is spoken to Timothy in regard of his authoritative power in the Church of God as the scope of the chapter and the immediate precedent words shew
which is not your case denying authoritative power but if you say this text is meant secondarily of all Churches and Christians though they have not authoritative power I grant it but then it is in wayes suitable which the word of God gives warrant and allowance for as in reproving mourning for the sin c. which must be shewne in some other Scriptures For else the Presbyterians may pretend by vertue of this text that they ought not to be partaker of other mens sins that they may censure depose excommunicate members of other Churches who are suffered to goe on in sin better then you can draw from this text that you may call not only particular members but whole Churches to an account examine them and pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion against them But in a word bretheren let me tell you if such generall texts as these that may be applied to any course and way conceived by men in their own braines to hinder sin and reduce from offences will serve turne for Church government and for remedies to reduce Churches then we can give you besides your own two texts quoted here for your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion many other such and more probable too for the authoritative power of Presbyteries and Sinods as that in 1 Cor. 14. 22. And the spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets but we are not so hard put to it there being particular instances and examples if the nature of an Answer to such a Narration would permit me to insist at large that proove the points in difference namely of acts of power exercised by Churches in common as in elections determinations and impositions upon differences and controversies as Acts 15. 2. 4 6 7 13 22 23 24 28 29. Acts 16. 4 5. 2 Corinih 8. 18 19. But let the indifferent reader judge by this which hath been said whether the reformed Churches or the Independent practise most safely there being a ground as your selves confesse for the sentence of excommunication such a sentence you acknowledge in particular Churches and practise it and such a sentence hath been decreed and past upon members of Churches by those who were not members of those Churches as the Scriptures are cleare for it 1 Tim. 1. 19 20. But on the other hand it is not granted that the Scriptures give any ground of pronouncing the sentence of non-communion against whole Churches or doe allow any such practise of declarations and protestations unto all Churches against whole Churches this I utterly deny and your Scriptures prove them not and I wonder how you dare call it the command of Christ and the way of Christ as you doe in page 18 19. And brethren besides that the Scriptures give neither precept nor example for your way of non-communion consider whether the Scriptures give not grounds rather to the contrary namely against a particular Churches withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion with whole Churches upon an errour and miscarriage for let me aske you may not such a Church or Churches be true Churches for all this continue in their offices upon mistaken partiality and notwithstanding all the light a particular Church can give them be unsatisfied now if a particular man may not separate nor withdraw Christian communion from a true Church though upon his counsell and advise she redresse not but 't is a schisme then for one Church upon counsell and advice given to more Churches though not taken to separate formally from many Churches by pronouncing that heavy sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion cannot be justified Paul did not renounce nor cast-off Churches for many things amisse though upon his counsell they were not mended as appeares in the Church of Corinth that had been twice admonished 2 Cor. 13. 1 2. and â—…t repented not and now Paul doth it the third time and yet refusing Pauls counsell and power being so infallible and authoritative deserved more the sentence of non-communion then the often rejecting the counsell and power of any particular Church can doe But I will answer you in your own language that your sacred and undoubted principles and supreame laws of submission of Churches and of the power of Churches offended to pronounce the heavy sentence of non-communion against the Churches offending and of Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ that they might doe the like with your own practise exprest in the 20 and 21. page are to me Apocriphâ—… and judge it to be an additament which therefore rests on you who allow the sentence of excommunication to make evident and demonstrate that of non-communion Protestations Declarations c. And thus it often falls out whilst men will oppose that which hath long been received in the Church of God upon pretence of the want of Scripture grounds and bring in new wayes they practise novelties upon lesse ground and foundation from Scriptures then they rejected the old as is to be seen in this instance 2. As these principles of yourâ—… have no footing in Scripture so it will appeare they are no sufficient remedies for miscarriages and evills which fall out in particular Churches by reason of their compleate and entire power within themselves first because there are more acts of power then your principle of submission of Churches and the instances you give upon it reach unto so that granting all you say of it yet it would but reach to that particular case or some such like cases but would be no way sufficient either for preventing or remedying other evills and mischiefs which dâ—…e and would arise upon a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe So that here lies the fallacy in the question between you and the reformed Churches in point of government you speake to some points of government but not to all and instead of laying down principles that should answer all cases they only serve but to some and so your principles that should be simpliciter are only secundum quid For in the government of the Church there are many other acts of power as of making and ordaining Ministers of receiving in Members of agreeing upon a government doctrine and worship c. which this full compleat entire power of particular Congregations takes upon them to doe of which many great mischiefes doe arise and are like errours in the first concoction which your principle of submission of Churches reacheth not unto nor doth not help But secondly besides this the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto the other Churches offended with that practise of Churches finally offended to denounce such a senâ—…ence of Non-communion doth not answer the case alleadged in heresies schisme or persons injured nor is not a sufficient remedie like that of combination of Elders and for the making good of that I shall examine the way and course prescribed by you in your principles here laid downe of Submission Non-communion Declarations and Protestations and
and censured and shall condemne and judge those Churches for renouncing communion as too severe and declaring thus to all other Churches against them what must be done in these cases will these Churches censuring now acknowledge their offence and revoke their sentence of Non-communion or if they will not what must these Churches protested unto doe in this case must not they passe the sentence of Non-communion against them and if they doe so what if these Churches censuring shall also pronounce the heavie sentence of Non-communion even against these Churches protested and declared unto Now that these things and worse may not and will not fall out cannot be denied which things as to the neighbour Churches among themselves will be great occasion of schismes and continuall differences so will they minister matter of great scandall to all other Churches and of tryumph and evill speaking unto enemies all which will be easily prevented and remedied in the Presbyteriall government Sixthly Two or three Churches or more of your Independent way living amongst other Churches as you did in Holland or if your Congregations should be tolerated in England according to your desire you may hold this principle of submission to one another and yet all agree in holding some errours with which errours you may infect many of the members of the Presbyteriall Churches for which you will not question one another what remedie or meanes is there now to reduce your Churches or preserve ours Seventhly Some of your Churches by vertue of this principle that Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches may be ever and anon unjustly calling upon some of the Churches to submit and challenging them first with being offended by them least themselves should be challenged to have offended and so as we speake call whore first and also they who are challenged to offend to be even with them will challenge them againe and what must be done in this case and who shall interpose to determine these differences or may both parties judged thus by each other to be offenders determine against one an other Eightly If Churches must thus submit to trials and examinations these being the acts of whole Churches here will be nothing but trials and examinations and censures one upon another and this instead of a sufficient remedy is like to proove a continuall vexation and molestation to neighbour Churches Ninethly What must be done in case one Church or more take offence unjustly at others and trouble them thus to call them to open examination c. what satisfaction must be given to the Church troubled and examined Tenthly In this principle of submission of Churches suppose that upon a hearing the Church offending will not redresse the grievance or relieve a person injured But goe on and slight communion with other Churches the persons injured in the meane time are debarred from the ordinances and cannot remove their dwellings without manifest ruine of their families how doth this help such persons injured or is a sufficient remedy for wrongfull sentences c. Whereas now in the Presbyteriall way if such a Minister or officers who are the cause of this may be deposed and acts passe against them and others placed in their roomes this will remedy and redresse it And so suppose a Minister of note fall into heresie and errour and draw the most of his people after him so that he cannot be deposed by the Church what good will the non-communion pronounced against this Church by other Churches do for reducing them but now if this Minister may be deposed and an orthodox Minister put in to preach the truth here is a powerfull meanes to reduce and preserve Eleventhly Let me aske you and pray determine it from the Scriptures in case two or three Churches offended doe challenge a Church or Churches offending who yet upon submitting to a hearing will not yeild to the counsell and advice of those Churches who how where after what time and how many meetings and after what manner must this sentence of non-communion be denounced against this Church or Churches whether must it be denounced in and upon the place where they meet to heare and examine or in the meeting place of each of these Churches offended or must these Churches offended meet in one of their meeting places to pronounce it together and who must be the mouth and who by warrant out of the Scriptures hath the power to pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion and how must it be made known unto the offending Churches with other things of this like nature To say no more now this principle of non-communion is so farre from being a sufficient remedy for miscarriages or a reliefe for wrongfull sentences or a powerfull means to reduce a Church or Churches c. that 't is a remedy worse then the disease and if it should be practised would be the ground of many schismes separations mischiefes in the Church of God and that amongst whole Churches so that it were farre better particular persons should suffer wrong or particular persons fall into schisme and be left to their liberty then whole Churches suffer those evils which your principles of non-communion Declarations Protestations would undoubtedly produce as the Reader may judge by what is here written For the second your practise according to this principle occasioned upon an offence that fell out in your Churches I shall shew that as insufficient as your principles and shall animadvert upon the most solemn instances of your practise As for the Introduction into your relation of the scandall and offence I readily assent unto you had you not judged it for the advantage of your selves and way you would upon no other occasion have made it thus publike for you are good at concealing of all your principles and practises but when and where you may further and propagate your way For the story it selfe as it is related by you it is very short and generall neither expressing the Ministers name deposed nor the causes of his deposition nor the first occasion of the differences nor the way the Church took before they deposed him nor the manner how they proceeded nor how long he stood so deposed so that the Reader cannot well tell what to make of it for want of a more full particular relation or how to judge whether your principle of submission of Churches and your practise here laid downe upon it was so proper and so sufficient a remedy and so effectuall a course as you boast of in page 20 21. I must therefore of necessity in reference to the disprooving and weakning of what you would inferre from your sacred principle and supreame law of submission and the more solemne instance of your practise wherewith to vindicate your selves and way in this particular and that it may appeare it was but a
and restoring Mr Ward agreed upon was it not upon the newes of the Parliament and the probability of the revolution of things And I propound this question because Mr Bâ—…rroughs who came in M. Wards place after his deposition came backe to England but at the beginning of the Parliament and till he came or was resolved to come it is not probable M. Ward was restored and if so that it was done when all was like to breake up and they to come fâ—… England may we not suspect it was done for an instance to vindicate your way with and to serve your turne as in this Apologie rather then from any necessitie of righting a person â—…jured or correcting a Church offending 5. Why did not the Church of Arnheim take offence as well at M. Sympsons Church and at his schisme in setting up another Church and at all that bitternesse evill speaking betweene those two Churches the ground indeed and foundation of that unhappy businesse about M. Ward and of all the evill committed therein and accordingly have required M. Sympsons Church to have submitted but here is not a hint of this in all the relation of your practise I have a letter out of Holland by me that concerning this businesse writes thus That though M. Sympson with sâ—…me fâ—…w morâ—… râ—…t themselves from M. Bridges Church to the great offence thereof yet M. Goodwin and his Associates when they came to heare the businesse about M. Ward never questioned that scandall I meane of their schisme from the same Church Now if it were so was not this a partiall remedie not reaching to all the offence noâ—… to the bottome of it why did you not summon both these Churches in the matter of scandall and difference to submit as well as one of the Churches will not your principles serve in difference betweene Churches as for difference in one Church or was it that there was no complaint of neither side or was it because you are tender of questioning the multiplication of Churches though by seperation and schiâ—…me Or what was the reason you questioned not that 6. Whether were the other Churches of our Nation or any of them who could not but be offended as them of Amsterdam Hague Utrich Leyden Delph cal'd in by Arnheim or by the Church at Roterdam to joyne in the hearing trying of that businesse and deposing Witnesses or did they send Messengers or was it onely agitated by two Ministers â—…nd two Messengers of tâ—… Church of Arnheim one Church onely 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 one to one both equall and whether there can be the like majesty and solemnity of a meeting where they are equall â—…ay an inferiority in as much as a representative Church consisting of foure is below a Church represented as in a Presbyteriall assâ—…bly I have a Letter from Holland by me wherein a godly Ministâ—…r writes thus I was desired by Mr Ward to be present at that meeting but when the time came neither I nor any other English Ministers but they of Arnheim were callâ—…d 7. To what or to how much did your practise who were the Church offended amount unto upon Mr Bridges Church submission and your full hearing and finding both sides to be in an errour did you injoyne and draw up an order that the Church offending should publikely acknowledge their sinfâ—… abeâ—…ation before you and the commers of all sorts and restore their Minister againe and that they should keep a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves for their sinfull carriage and that the Minister deposed should acknowledge to the Church wherein he had likewise sinned or did you leave them to themselves upon your finding the offence to doe what they thought fitting both Church and Minister as being against your principles for one Church to decree and impose any thing upon another and so they â—…ooke up this way voluntarily would you would speake out and once tell us plainely what you hold and what you woâ—…ld 〈◊〉 that so the Reader might judge of the effectualnessâ—… of your 〈◊〉 8. I aske of you whether Mr Bridge with the offending Church at Rotterdam did sit as Judges with them oâ—… 〈◊〉 in their own cause to examine depose c. or else 〈◊〉 by aâ—… delinquents to be charged tried c. 9. I deâ—…e to know of you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he was râ—…stored did as formely officiate in that Church and how long and whether Mr Bridge and he continued there as fellow Ministers and whether both between them two and between the Church and Mr Ward there was that mutuall carriage as before and ought to be between fellow Ministers and Ministers and people 10. How can a Church representative be a sufficient and allowed remedy to take up great offences in a Church at a great distance and whether this implies not an implicit faith in the represented to let the representers upon hearing put a finall determination and conclusion to great offences and differences without returning back the businesse to the Church represented or so much as ever acquainting them with the businesse before all was ended as was in this particular case and whether Mr Robinsâ—…s arguments against the Presbyterians â—…bout the power of their Elders be not strong against your principles and practises here related and what ground is there from tâ—…e Scripture that foure men of another Church should have power to call unto and insist upon a judiciarie charge against them who were greater then themselves namely against a whole Church consisting of officerâ—… and people 11. Suppose the Church of Arâ—…m who sent two Ministerâ—… and two Gentlemen â—…s messengers of their Church upon their returne back to the Church and giving an account of all the proceedings and issue of that businesse had disliked the determinations and judged some of the proceedings unjust otherâ—… unsatisfactory and not according to the rules of the word as the Church of 〈◊〉 might well have done there being just ground for it as I will shew in the second particular under the next head What must have been done in this case must the messengers themselves have been now questioned by the Church for managing matters no better or must the sentences agreed upon both for the Church and Mr Ward be reversed or must other messengers be sent to heare matters againe and to change or adde what was amisse and what if the Church would not alter that which upon so full a hearing and triall was agreed upon now I aske of you and appeale to the Reader considering that the Church or Churches themselves may probably and it cannot but be expected 〈◊〉 and vary in their judgements from their messengers about the determination of offences and differences whether this be a likely meanes and sufficient remedy to end all strifed or rather will not be as the beginning of new strife and an occasion of endlesse contentions 12. In this way of submission of Churches and your practises upon occasion of offences and
Concerning which question it being a point that I have not much studied I shall not declare my judgement in it But in the Church of Israel it seemes that in the things of Jehovah the last judgement did belong to the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Assembly which sate at Ierusalem Deut. 17. 8 9 10 11 12 13 verses as Iunius in his Analisis illustrates that place and the arguments brought by Apollonius in this point with his answers to Vedelius arguments have a great deale of strength in them and I entreate you in your Reply if you will formally owne the giving of this power to the Magistrate that you will answer that second chapter of Apollonius But to draw toward a conclusion of the comparison of the effectualnesse between the two wayes supposing all you say of Submission Non-communion Protestation were true as also that you did give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterian and that in spirituall matters in cases of difference injuries c. you would from the Church have recourse to the Magistrate and submit to his judgement and that you did allow and would stand to the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet notwithstanding you have determined it that without all controversie your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the other can be supposed to be yet I must tell you it falls farre short of the Presbyterian way both in preventing and remedying sins errors offences and in promoting knowledge godlinesse and peace in the Churches For suppose non-communion of Churches were a way of Christ and a remedie the contrary to which I have at large showne yet you must confesse 't is but a lower remedy not an authoritative powererfull dreadfull remedie and meanes like that of excommunication which is the highest and greatest censure in the Church the Churches thunderbolt and Anathema a remedy and last meanes which recovers a sinner when all others will not as admonition suspension deposition and so when non-communion and Protestation will not In the Scriptures are laid downe many eminent fruits and effects of excommunication in the people of God which are not of any censure else and I might fill a book with the ends benefits and fruits of this censure laid down by Divines in their Tractates and common places of Ecclesiasticall discipline and excommunication but I will name only that of the Professors of Leyden Excommunication is the last remedie and the sharpest for the subduing of the flesh in a man and for the quickning of the spirit and the most efficacious example least the sound part should be corrupted But against them who persevere in their contumacie and impenitencie 't is the only meanes to free the house of God of leaven and the Church of Christ from scandals and so to vindicate the Word and Sacraments from prophanation and the Name of God from the blaspheming of them without Now pray shew us in the Scripture any where the excellent fruits benefits ends of non-communion of Churches and Protestation against them as we can of excommunication in 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. 6 7 8 9 10. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 1. 20. And then for that other remedie of the Magistrates power added to non-communion to eeke out wherein non-communion may be defective to excommunication and for that purpose you say you give more to the Magistrates power that so what you faile and come short in Ecclesiasticall power you may make it up in giving more civill power in Ecclesiasticall causes the result of which must needs be this that though in your Church-way you have not so much Ecclesiasticall authoritative power for miscarriages and for reducing Churches that fall into heresie and schisme yet you give more civill power and allow the Magistrate more to interpose for helping and reducing so that lesse Ecclesiasticall power and authority with a large civill power to back it will be every way as effectuall as much Ecclesiasticall authority with a small civill power But of this I shall shew you your mistake because the question is of Church matters and matters of conscience and the inward man and of the Kingdom of Christ Now the remedies and meanes appointed for these are spirituall and Ecclesiasticall namely spirituall punishments Christ saith my Kingdom is not of this world and the Apostle 2 Cor. 10. 3 4 5. The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling downe of strong holds by which the spirit and the inward man even every thought is subjected to the obedience of Christ spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke and hence in Ecclesiasticall discipline and those scandalls in the Church which is the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse c. which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place at all neither can such meanes which are of a different kind from the spirituall Kingdome of Christ produce those effects which belong to that heavenly Kingdome 'T is out of the sphere of the activity of the politicall Magistrate to subdue the inward man or to inflict spirituall punishment upon the consciences And there is nothing more common in the writings of the most learned and orthodox Divines then to shew that the civill power and government of the Magistrate and the Ecclesiasticall government of the Church are toto genere disjoyned and thereupon the power of the Magistrate by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from Ecclesiasticall discipline For the power of the Magistrate by which he punishes sin doth not subserve to the Kingdome of Christ the Mediator that he may apply efficaciously to the elect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Propheticall and Priestly office of Christ he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment neither is this instituted of God and sanctified as the meanes for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. Hence also by Divines the manifold difference between the censure of excommunication and the punishment of the Magistrate is observed Zanchius doth accurately shew the difference between them The cause of excommunication is not the punishment of sinne but the salvation of the sinner and the edification of the Church and the glory of God but the scope of the civill Magistrate and his office is that he should punish the sinne it selfe neither dâ—…th it looke to the salvation or damnation of the offender whereupon although the sinner repent yet he doth not spare but punisheth according to his office But the Church according to Christs doctrine doth not strike with the spirituall sword unlesse he be impenitent neither is this done for death but for salvation
so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of herâ—…fies In a word all things are loose in independent Government every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their owne eyes if they like not any Church whereof they are members they may goe to another nay a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves and make Ministers and hold what they will as Mr Sympson did with some few more and since some have rent from Mr Sympsons Church as he from Mr Bridge The rules they goe by are loose nothing being fixed nor certaine among them and there can be no setlednesse of mind nor consistence of Principles in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that to hold that there are no true Churches nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth which principle begins to take and spread already amongst many Independents In a word that Liberty and loosenesse which is from first to last in Independent Government holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter and that which is in the particular Congregation being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. as that two or three Saints or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure and make Churches and chuse all officers c. with other like so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out seeing they can make new and have all to their owne minde be chiefe there is a dangerous temptation even to sober men to make them presume to broach that practise that which else they would never have done But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence unitie and strength as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on both for particular congregations for Classes and Synods there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds and keeping them from running out to errours c. there being no man be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure Magistrates and Ministers have their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church they would finde their authoritie increased their worke more easie and their places more comfortable thereby And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21. I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration which could not so well be taken in nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled 1. To that passage p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders you many times having but three and sometimes but two nay one Elder the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government or Oligarchicall at best And if the Churches were subject to the Elders who were the Elders subject to the Elders then were under no subjection but if the Churches were subject to the Elders and not the Elders to the Churches riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases the Church still did so and so not the Elders the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers were sent by the Church and that Church which had offended confessed their sin and restored their Minister to his place againe which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two 2. To those passages of Churches offended calling to an account Churches offending proceeding to full and open tryals and examinations to Iudiciarie charges and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them I desire to put this disjunctive proposition Either this power of calling to an account examining deposing witnesses censuring them c. are acts of ruling and government and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection or they are not if you grant they be acts of rule and government then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches and you grant it in such acts at least though not in that of excommunication But whether if it be so in these that of excommunication will not follow let it be considered for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds on which callings to account and some censures are or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance or in the Scripture forbidding that though allowing others neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture and if so why then doe you make all this adoe of entire full compleate power within your selves and are against the combination of Churches in Classes and Presbyteries to doe that constantly certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church which you doe at best but at uncertainties and after a long time when the remedy may come too late a yeare or two afterwards But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches but meerely acts of consultation advice perswasion and that when the Churches offended have heard all they only give their counsell and advice and commend it to them but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe for though they submit to a hearing and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church or Churches I answer if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this and no power of Authoritative determination and decision this is no more nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases And why then doe you hold out such words and your practise of a full and
the Church meeting to excommunicate an impenitent sinner where there is a promise of binding in Heaven what is bound on earth which you cannot shew in your principle of submission and non-communion But this parenthesis is drawne in in the relation of your practise like many other particulars in this book to take with the simple people and to possesse them with the excellencie and majesty of your Congregationall way beyond the Presbyteriall and Synodicall and this passage here with many others in your Apologeticall Narration are paralell to passages in Mr Bachelours letters who after his suddaine conversion to the Church-way for want of better arguments to winne the people and to evince the truth of the Church-way writes thus For mine own part though but a few weeks agone when I was in England I found some objection in my spirit against the way of the Holland Churches and conceived wrongfully as Mr Edwards now doth through misunderstanding cast abroad by them whose sore eyes cannot endure the light of truth yet since by a good hand of providence I have been at Rotterdam and beheld the beautifull face of holinesse the lively representations of Iesus Christ in his ordinances the sweet and blessed communion of the Saints in all love and dearenesse mine objections are removed mine heart is convinced and I thinke many thousands in England as well as my selfe would soone be overcome at the very sight thereof A soule of gratious ingenuity needs no other Rhetorick to winne it then the presence of these heavenly administrations But what Anabaptist or Antinomian cannot say all this for their way and more too crying out the ravishments of the spirit free and glorious grace c. 7. You speake of consulting with sister Churches before that you proceed to matters of great moment and that you professed publikely in cases of concernment you ought so to doe pag. 16. and yet in page 15. you claime a full and entire power compleat within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely now how doe these agree for if you must consult before hand then 't is not an entire full compleate power before miscarrying and 't is but a power of consulting and advising after miscarriages and erring grossely and not an authoritative power 8. Whereas you call Presbyteriall excommunication excommunication pretended how much more truly may we call non-communion pretended and Protestation pretended for besides that in the Scripture excommunication is to be found there is such a censure there but no such sentence at all as non-communion there is also ground in Scriptures that Churches may be excommunicated as well as particular persons and of this in the Observations and Annotations upon your Apologeticall Narration page 43 44. you may reade strong proofes which your good friend M. S. thought best to take no notice of as not knowing how to answer them and I turne them over from M. S. to you five to give a satisfying answer 9. For that learned Speech made at the introduction and entrance into that solemne Assembly as the preface to it that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any Religion hath ever made profession of c. I say 't is but a meere flourish and according to the Proverbe her 's a great deale of cry but a little wool and notwithstanding all these swelling words you are guilty indeed what in words and phrases you deny and in the more proper place when I shall speake to it in page 23 of your Apologie I will evince you are guilty of Independent liberty Thus we have rendred some small account of those the saddest dayes of our pilgrimage on earth wherein although we enjoyed God yet besides many other miseries the companions of banishment we lost some friends and companions our fâ—…llow labourers in the Gospell as precious men as this earth beares any through the distemper of the place and our selves came hardly off that service with our healths yea lives To this Section which containes the close and winding up of that part of your Narration during the time of your exile I answer It is a small account indeed you have rendred to what you seeme to hold out and to what such a Narration should have amounted concealing â—…nd reserving so much of your practise and wayes as I have before observed And as for those words the saddest dayes of our pilgrimage on earth c. I wonder at them sure you have been very happy men and have enjoyed many very good dayes that in your whole pilgrimage on earth of forty yeares and upwards those three or foure yeares in Holland where you enjoyed so many outward comforts and blessings should be your saddest dayes for my part I cannot say so Neither am I satisfied in those words besides many other miseries the companions of banishment For though in some banishments there are many other miseries the companions of them as deprivation of wife children friends maintenance with nakednesse hunger wandring up and downe in strange and desolate places harsh usage in a strange land yet you felt none of these But on the contrary you enjoyed wives children estates suitable friends good houses full fare I cannot imagine fewer miseries had you been in England could have waited upon you then did there unlesse that of bitter divisions and deadly differences the constant companions of your Church-way I could name many more miseries did abide some of us that stayed behind and might have done you to had you stayed in England As for those two instanced in particularly the losse of some friends and companions your fellow-labourers in the Gospell and your selves comming off hardly with your healths yea lives I must tell you those cannot properly and truly be called the companions of your banishment for those two Ministers namely Mr Archer and Mr Harris according to all reason and humane probability might not have lived longer in England both of them as it is well knowne having been long weake men in consumptions and sometimes nigh unto death before they went and for one of these Ministers Mr Archer he was so farre from being worse that he grew better and stronger in stomack sleepe strength and spirits after he went over into Holland as besides the many letters writ into England to friends of all sorts of the healthfulnesse of that place where he was with some of you and of the encrease of his strength I have letters written to me under his own hand to shew the contrary to what you affirme both of the distemper of the place and of the many other miseries the companions of that banishment In one letter he writes thus For Holland it is much better then I expected for pleasantnesse health plenty of flesh and foule we alter not oâ—…r English diet in any thing Utrich is a brave City a University with godly professors full of English a man may live as pleasantly there as at Hartford And in another My stomack sleepe strength
godly Minister of the City conferring with one of your precious Ministers about these points before he went into Holland and telling him This is Brownisme and Browne held thus what are you a Brownist Your companion and fellow-labourer answered him thus The way was of God but the man was nought namely Browne As for those words whereby you would evade the naine of Brownisme That upon the very first declaring your judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged you differ much from them 'T is not your saying so will cleare you unlesse you had named what that chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-discipline is and how and in what words you declared your judgements and to whom for you might so expresse your selves as you doe in this Apologie too often whereby you might deceive the most of them to whom you declared your judgements yea many able Ministers and Scholars who are not versed in your distinctions and reservations and yet for all the declaring of your judgements differ very little from the Brownists except in different phrases and in not deducing such consequences Let me intreate you therefore to lie no longer hid under such generals but in your Reply declare particularly what you hold the chiefe point of all Church-discipline and wherein in that you differ from them But may I guesse at the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-government and discipline wherein you declared your judgements by which you would distinguish your selves from the Brownists Is it not that you give the power and authoritie to the officers and not to the people onely I have heard that of late you have declared your selves thus and the late Epistle before M. Cottons booke written by two of you implies so much But be it so though I can out of a letter of M. Bridges and from notes and manuscripts show that seven yeares agoe the expressions of some of you were otherwise yet this will not free yoâ—… for M. Iohnson fell to this and yet was guiltie of Brownisme for all that But in this also your principles and your practises are incoherent and however in fine words and flattering similitudes you dilate upon it in your Epistle to M. Cottons late booke yet it comes much to one the substance of which Epistle I will answer in my Rejoynder to your Reply or in some thing by it selfe and will wipe off the paint and guilt and then the naked counter and rotten post will appeare As for your publick profession that you beleeve the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I answer then Actum est de Presbyterio de Synodo You have determined the cause alreadie the Assembly may rise when they please and need sit no longer for the truth lies and consists in Independencie but I suppose though heretofore and when you wrote this Apologie you did so publickly prefesso and beleeve the truth to lie in your way the middle way as you terme it yet by what hath past since your height and courage is somewhat abated and you are not now so peremptory and I find now you write in another stile which becomes you much better We humbly suppose we humbly conceive again in all humilitie But if you be high still I must tell you your confidence hath deceived you and your middle way as you fancie it though I must still charge upon you refined Brownisme will prove like other pretended truthes lying in middle wayes just as the Catholicke and Arminian moderatours Cassander the booke called Interim and that booke of late times cal'd media via betweene the Papists and Protestants and betweene the Calvinists and Arminians And as for the way of your expression of Presbyteriall government I cannot but except at it observing that all along obliquely and as farre as you may you still asperse that You can here expresse Brownisme simply without any additions to it but you cannot passe by Presbyteriall government without a lash at it which is the contention of these times as if you would insinuate the blame of all the contentions and stirre of these times to be Presbyteriall Government whereas the truth is the contention of these times is Episcopall and your Independent Government which have caused and doe continue all the contention and stirres in Church and Common-wealth they mutually strengthning each other against Presbyteriall government and â—…o 't is still to be observed that all along in this Apologie where you speake of Presbyteriall Government you state the questions about that in the highest and utmost latitude but of your owne Church and way in the lowest yea lower then you hold as for instance in 11 12. pag. about the qualification of Church-members to deceive the Reader with your pretended moderation and the more to possesse the Reader against the jus divinum of the Presbyteriall way as for example in this place Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now the substance and summe of Presbyteriall governement may be according to Apostolicall Primitive patternes and yet all the subordinations and proceedings of it as it is practised in the Church of Scotland fitted to that Nation and Kingdome may have no Scripture examples Presbyteriall government in some Reformed Churches as at Geneva hath not all the subordinations and proceedings as Scotland being no Kingdome nor Nation and Presbyteriall government in England might have one subordination more then Scotland and some different proceedings in the manner and forme of carrying matters according to particular circumstances and occasions of time and place The Ministers of the Church of Scotland who hold their Church Government to be laid downe in the word of God for the substance and essentials of it doe not as I suppose hold that all the subordinations and proceedings as practised in their kingdome have a particular rule either of precept or example I doubt not but they well understand no whole Nation was converted to the faith in the time that the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles were written nor the supreame Magistrate in any Kingdome or Nation and therefore in no one Church or Nation where Christians were converted and Churches planted there could not be that formall combination into Classes setled Synods or generall Assemblies neither could the supreame Magistrate or a Commissioner for him be a prime member in their chiefe Assemblies and so I might instance in other particulars but the Church of Scotland find Presbyteriall Government in subordinations and appeales that is Government exercised in Churches and Assemblies which consisted of more members then could meet in one place and they find Assemblies where upon cases of difference there were more members and officers then of one Church as the Acts of the Apostles showes fully
and this serves for Scripture grounds to them Now then for the manner of ordering of this according to different Kingdomes Nations or Cities in fewer or more subordinations and in the way and manner of proceedings by severall Churches according to locall temporall and personall circumstances they know well they must goe according to generall rules of the word to the common lawes of nature and prudence and so they leave other Churches to doe the like And had we been led in our former wayes and our removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity which are the usuall grounds of all schisme we had since our returnes againe during this intermisticall season tentations yea provocations enough to have drawne forth such a spirit having manifold advantages to make and increase a partie which we have not in the least attempted We found the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse they finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way And we found that many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause Whether all of you or only some of you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction c. I will not enter into your bosomes nor judge of secret things I leave you to search your selves and to give account of your spirits to the Father of spirits and whether you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of the Kingdome by any such spirit or no 't is too evident by what I have fore-mentioned that a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity wrought too much amongst some of you abroad But though no such spirit led you there are to me and many others sufficient visible grounds of your removall out of this Kingdome after you once were off your setled places as your feare of personall violence your selfe-love and worldly wisdome to provide for your selves and yours what ever became of the publicke your horrible dispaire of comming in againe here or things ever turning in this Land as you twice expresse it your great and excessive admiration of the persons of some who were in the Church-way accounting there were no such men in the world as they your discontent and anger at the course and harsh usage in casting some of you out of your places which often times are grounds of heresies and schismes as I could shew out of Ecclesiasticall histories in Tertullian c. And besides these grounds if I may judge of your being led in your former wayes and of your removall out of the Kingdome as your selves make the argument by your spirit being drawne forth since your returne in making and encreasing a partie if that will evince your being led formerly by a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularitie I know not how you will free your selves for since your returnes againe during this intermysticall season you have not been idle nor lost time but have laid hold on the temptations provocations and the manifold advantages to make and increase a partie nay you have not only laid hold on what you found readie to your hands namely the intermysticall season through so many great businesses comming in upon the Parliament one upon another the spirits of the people of the kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions c. but you have made and encreased new for the making of a partie And I much wonder how you dare speake thus much lesse publiquely in print to publish that you have not in the least attempted to make and encrease a partie the contrarie whereunto is written in such great letters that he who runnes may reade it and I shall presently make evident in answering this passage with others of the like nature in the 25. and 26. pages For the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse and especially of the Citie and the adjacent parts you give a true character together with the ground of it finding themselves to be so much at liberty and new come out of bonduge and it is amongst all the passages in your booke one of the best and if the people would well mind and consider of it that they are readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way This might doe them as much good as all the Sermons you have preacht among them since your returnes and might prove an antidote both against the golden sweet poyson in this booke and the principles of your Church-way But thus we see by your owne confession how easily and readily errours are entertained by the good people of this Kingdome when as truth may stand without doores and knocke long before opened unto even as good Phisitians and good right phisicke hath a great deale a doe to find acceptance and admittance among the common-people when Mountabancks and Empricks are sought unto As to those words the finding that many of those mists that had gathered about you or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence began by your presence againe in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for your selves and cause I answer O happie rare men powerfull and gracious with the people whose very presence without speaking a word for themselves or cause could doe thus much after a long absence what will not your speaking and writing for your selves then doe 'T is well for you the most eminent servants of God in all ages have not found mists that had gathered about them or cast upon their persons to scatter and vanish away so easily but after all Apologies and Defence for themselves and cause have found them to sticke close and we find it harder to wipe off the aspersions and mistakes cast on us from your side though for nothing else but for discharging our consciences and labouring to keepe good people from errours But Brethren if it were so with you as here you write what need had you then to write this Apologie to cleare your selves from mistakes especially having been now so long present in the Kingdome and resident in the chiefe Citie having the libertie of the Pulpits and being members of the Assemblie would not the sudden confused noise of exclamations restecting upon you interpretatively without the writing of this
its own evidence with it For answer I propund to the Reader as followes this question of your words In the meane time from this briefe generall partiall conceal'd untrue historicall relation of your practises there can be little true estimate taken of your opinions in difference which being set out by practises but in part and not the whole in the bright side and not the blacke is the least reall without any evidence in it but the most collusive way especially with the people and with such who have not studied the controversies nor know not the points in difference But I will shew unto you a more reall way if you will promise to answer positively and plainely to such questions and positions as I shall draw up for you concerning your Church-way then there may be an estimate of the opinions in difference and for requitall of this I will promise you to answer clearely and fully to any questions both of doctrine discipline and worship that you can put unto me As for those words All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety c. I answer it is a great boldnesse indeed to present such an Apologie to both Houses the supreme Iudicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath been in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before wherein besides the questions and controversies so mistated and so many doubtfull dark passages there are many untrue relations and I wonder how you durst presume to lay so much folly and indiscretion with untruth at the feet of so much wisedome and piety had your Apologie been only adpopulum who are weake and apt to be deceived it had been more excusable but to appeale by such an Apologie to both Houses of Parliament is very strange but we may see by this how farre applause and favour with the people and confidence of successe will carry men You have need indeed to beseech the Parliament to looke upon you under no other notion or character then as those who if you cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of the Reformation yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publike peace I think your consciences should tell you the Parliament hath reason to looke upon you under other notions and characters then you represent your selves by which I judge is the ground of your deprecating the Houses and indeed I wonder how you can make such a Petition to both Houses for it is evident you have been no furtherers of that Reformation which the Parliament or ever any wise State did in any age intend but you may assume to have been furtherers of a Reformation for Independent government and separation which the Parliament never intended But whether you have been no way hinderers of the Reformation intended nor disturbers of the publike peace let the things alledged in this answer speake witnesse gathering of Churches witnesse the tumults that have been in streets upon some of your private meetings witnesse the disturbance of the publike peace in some Churches upon your preaching and particularly if the delaying the work of Reformation and setling Church government be some way an hinderance to it and an occasion of disturbing the publike peace then you five have not been the least nor last in some way hindering Reformation and disturbing the publike peace And bretheren what is the great thing that letteth and will let but you five I am confident had it not been for you five and a few more the Reformation intended and the publike peace of the Church had been in a farre fairer way then now it is Bretheren there are many complaints and that by your deare friends of retarding the work of Reformation by your meanes you are the Remora to the Ship under sailes you are the spokes in the wheeles of the Chariot of Reformation Parliament complaines Assembly City Countrey all complaine of the worke retarded and all is resolved into you five principally I could tell you many particular passages but you know what I meane In a word all the Prelates and the Papists cannot nor doe not so much hinder the work of Reformation as you five members of the Assembly and the Lord in merey worke so that by occasion of you and by meanes of your principles and many persons of your Church-way there doe not yet rise up another great mountaine before Zerubbabel to hinder the laying the head stone of that building the foundation whereof is layed As for your differing so little in your judgements about the present worke of this agâ—… Reformation of worship and discipline from the reformed Churches and your bretheren c. I answer if so be that you differ so little from the reformed Churches and your bretheren yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past why doe you not then incorporate with us why will you or how can you answer it to God for that to make a rent and to desire to have Churches of your own way and to be an occasion of so much evill as that would prove to this Church the smaller the difference is the greater is the schisme and separation for the lesse the cause of a separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it Are we come so farre to you so many miles as you imply in those words from what themselves were three yeares past and will not you come a step or two to us for union and peace and to heale that great schisme with many other inconveniences We have and are comming blessed be God a great way to Church reformation and worship but the points that you would have us come to you in besides that they are Apocripha not to be found in Scripture we cannot being a Nation and Kingdome come to you in your way your Independent government and particular gathered Churches cannot stand with a Nationall Reformation as some of your way have confessed and therefore would have but a toleration for themselves but you may come to our Reformation easily though a Nation cannot be contained in a few yet a few may well in a Nation besides if you by your confessions differ farre lesse from us then what we did from our selves three yeares past why will you for all that great difference in us then and now and what need have you to goe make new separated Churches from whom you farre lesse differ but what ever you say here of your small difference between you and the reformed Churches and us the more to work with the Parliament for a toleration in some lesser differences yet the differences are held by you to be greater and more materiall or else you would close with us so reforming and among other particulars you differ more from your brethren then your brethren from themselves three yeares past your brethren being of one Church both then and now but you and
it that they should ever dreame more of a Toleration or think it possible the Parliament should grant it the Covenant being so direct against a Toleration Many of the Church-way and Communion have and doe apprehend all this that taking the Covenant and a Toleration of Independencie cannot stand together and thereupon there are Ministers and people of that way had not taken it whatever they may of late I have been told from a good hand that some of the Apologists had much adoe to bring themselves to take it and that it was a bitter pill to get downe and one of some qualitie assured me that Mr Nye told him in Scotland that when the Covenant had passed there and was to be sent for England he writ with all earnestnesse and possible Conjurements to Mr Goodwin Mr Bridge c. not to oppose it or be against it as much fearing how it would goe downe To conclude this Reason For the Parliament to allow such a latitude as a Toleration it would be against the solemne Covenant For the Ministers to be silent and not to witnesse against such a Toleration desired would be in them a breach of the Covenant and therefore in respect to the Covenant I have taken I here witnesse against Tolerations of different sects and Churches The people by vertue of their Covenant are by all wayes and meanes in their places and callings engaged to oppose such a Toleration by their prayers to God against it c. Lastly our brethren of Scotland are ingaged with all their power and might in their places to oppose it Now the Apologists in petitioning for a Toleration have not only broken the Covenant themselves but they endeavour by all their wit and art in this Apologie to bring the Parliament and Kingdome into so great a guilt as the breach of this solemne Covenant 3. A Toleration is against the nature of Reformation a Reformation and a Toleration are diametrally opposite The commands of God given in his Word for Reformation with the Examples of Reforming Governours Civill and Ecclesiasticall doe not admit of a Toleration how many things might be produced out of some Sermons and Lectures of the Apologists concerning the nature of Reformation and of the Magistrates dutie in Reformation which crosse and thwart Tolerations and if the consciences of some men being unsatisfied must be a dispensation against removing such a thing or commanding such a thing there will never be no perfect nor thorough Reformation for what generall Reformation can there be but will be against many mens consciences the takinâ—… away of what men have long enjoyed and the bringing in of quite other things will trouble many consciences and if Magistrates or Ministers may not settle things contrary to the consciences of many but tolerate and allow them wherin they plead Conscience they shall never doe Gods work In King Edwards and Queen Elizabeths Reformations how was it against the Consciences of many taking away the Masse Confession to the Priest bringing in the Common Prayer Booke In this present Reformation how much is it against many mens Consciences the taking away the Government of the Church by Bishops the present Lyturgie and establishing another Government and Forme of publike Worship who if they might be allowed a Toleration would not admit a Reformation must not the Assembly and Parliament proceede therefore in the worke of Reformation because all mens consciences are not satisfied if this principle were once given way to that nothing might be removed nor nothing brought in which offends consciences but in such a case persons must have a libertie and Toleration men would still pretend conscience and so nothing to purpose should ever be reformed publiquely and all the Scripture speakes of Nationall and Generall Reformation by way of commanding and commending it should be just nothing depending meerely upon Tolerations that is there shall be a Reformation unlesse men desire a Toleration and the upshot of all will be this that so many of such a mind shall enjoy their way and so many of another mind their way c. and they who will yeeld to the Reformation by Nehemiah and Ezra may were there ever such Reformations read of in the Scriptures 4. A Toleration of men in their errours this pretended Libertie of conscience is against the judgement of the greatest lights in the Church both antient and moderne I might out of Ecclesiasticall Histories as Theodoret â—… relate the praises of those Emperours Theodosius Arcadius c. who would not suffer the meetings of the Heretioues but did by positive Lawes amerce and banish them as also the brands and blemishes cast upon those Emperours who suffered the Arrians and other Heretiques I might out of Augustine Ambrose Calvin Philip Melancthâ—…n Peter Marty Zanchius Musculus Bullinger bring many sentences againsâ—… Tolerations and leaving men to the libertie of their owne consciences and how by lawes and Discipline Magistrates may command obedience to the Worship of God established and to return into the Unitie of the Church But out of many I will give you the judgement of two Augustine and Beza Augustine in his Epistle to Vincentius writes to this purpose declaring to him though he was sometimes of that opinion that erroneous men should not be dealt with by force but only by the Word of God yet now by the arguments of others and by the visible examples of many being reduced from errours by that meanes he had changed his judgement and that therefore the Lawes of Princes might be lawfully made use of against errours And for this coactive power he brings many grounds in that Epistle and he speakes thus If we tolerate men in their errours and nothing be thought upon or done by us which may be likely to terrifie and recover them we shall truly render evill for evill If men be compelled and terrified but not instructed this is a tyrannizing over them but again if they be â—…aught and not feared they will move the slower to goe in the way of life not every one who spares is a Friend nor every one who chastiseth is an enemie And dost thou think no force is to be used to a man that he may be delivered from the perâ—…itiousnesse of his errour when as we know God himself doth so in many Examples and speaking on that point he saith it must not be so much considered that a man is compelled as what that is to which he is compelled In this Epistle the Father answers some objections brought against compelling men as that this does no good to â—…ome as that this is persecution as that these Heretiques would not doe so c. so he writes in his 50. Epistle to Boniface and in his 204. Epist. to Donatus upon the same subject And in his Retractations he retracts this errour which he sometimes held and had writ of 〈◊〉 it did not please him that schismatickâ—…s should be compelled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
nostris qui norant linguam Eelgicam frequentant SacraÌ„ coenam earum membris siqua forte nostro coetui intersint nobis cognita participamus Robin Apolog. Apolog. Letter to Mr King Mr Tost c. Apolog. Tertul. de Resur carnâ—… 〈◊〉 3. a Chamier Panstrat Cathol lib. 8. de Canone cap. 3. b Whitak de Script perfect quae 6. cap. 14. In soro non ex jure humano sed ex lege Mosis pronunciandum esse contendit Melch Adam vit Carolost Schlusselburg de Secta Schuvenckâ—…ld Cameron Sâ—… ver Iudge in controvers c. 11. Chamier Panstrat Cathol de Canone l. 8. c. 1. de persectione Scripturae Statâ—… controversiae Sect. 16. Cham. de Canone l. 8. c. 2. Sect. 20. Whitak de Script Perfect contra Hum. Tradit quae 6. c. 10. Whitak de Script perfect quaest 6. c. 6. Status quaestionis proponitur 6 Article of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures for salvation Vide 39 Articles of Relig. of Ch. of Engl. Serm. at publike Fast Novemb 29 1643. pag. 26. a Danaei Comment in 1 Tim. 5. v. 13. v. 17. Cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quadam homines omnia quae Apostolorum temporibus observata suerant sibi putarent imitanda neque locorum neque temporum neque rerum dissâ—…nilium rationem baberent eâ—…am ipsi suas Dioconissas retinere praecâ—…è voluerunt Sed cum posterioribus temporibus c. Et certe â—…is impudentes sunt Catabaptistae qui Pauli facti exempli praetexâ—… omnes verbi Dei ministros ad manualia oâ—…era cogendos esse contendunt ut victum comparent b Apostolici inter Anabaptist as cognominati sunt quia Apostolos aemulari in omnibus decreverunt Hi nudam Scripturae literam tenere se jactabant Absque baâ—…ulo calceis pera pecunia hinc inde vigabantur juxta Christi verba Ascendeâ—…ant in tecta domorum ex quibus habebant conciones quia Christus dixisset quae in aurem accepist is annunciate in tâ—…ctis Pedes sibi invicem lavabant cum puer is repâ—…erascebant hoc est pueriliter se gerebant uxores liberos domuâ—… opificia deserebant quia Christus dixisset nisi quis reliquerit doâ—…um uxorem c. propter me non potest esse meus discipulus Schluâ—…leb de Secta Anabaptist Mr Tho Goodwins answer to a letter with a Quâ—…re concerning the Church-covenant Confident we are is considence it selfe can make us that there is no commandement given to the Churches for exacting any such covenant of those that are to be admitted into Church-fellowship with them Quere concerning the Church-covenant Apolog. Apolog. 〈◊〉 I. G. Letter to T. G. Apolog. Whitaker dâ—… Eccles. Apolog. Manuscr Arg. of M. Nye against set-formes of prayer prescribed a M. Williams answer to Mr Cottons letter Queries proposed upon occasion of an Apologeticall Nâ—…ration Robinsoni Apolog cap. 12. de Eccles. Anglic. Apolog. Reform of Ch. government in Scotland cleared pag. 18. Dissert de Gub. Ecclesiae pag. 11. Robins Apol. cap. 1. de Eccles amplitudinâ—… a Polit. Ecclesiast l. 3. c. 〈◊〉 c. â—…2 b Polit. Eccles. l. 〈◊〉 c. 1. 〈◊〉 Balls friendly tryall of separation * Gersom Bucerus Dissert de Gub. Eccles. p. 11. Nos particularem Eccle siam intelligimus quemlibet credentium câ—…tum in unam vocationem divinam Evangelij praedicatioâ—…e sacrarumque institutionum observatione adunatum ac uni Presbyterio subjunctum sacros vero conventus uno out pluribus locis agitâ—…ntem Nam Paraeciarum in quibus convenitur numerus accidentaria res est nihil ad Ecclesiae particularis essentiam pertinens M. Bridges letter to M. Toâ—… M. Smith M. Henry King c. The Keyes were given to the whole Church unles we say they were given to Peter only and his successours search the Scriptures and see if you can find any place where any body or particular Church is subiect to one man or officer Reform of Ch. government cleared p. 25. a Robins Justif. of separat b Mr Burroughs on Hosea seventh Lecture p. 174. If we consider the difference between Ecclesiasticall power and civill power we shall see it cleare that there cannot be a ministeâ—…ll head of the Church c Ames Med. Theol. Iohn 4 10 22. Apolog. * Robiâ—…s Justif. of separat Robiâ—…s Catech. A representative Church in a case of faith and conscience without the consent of the represented in the particular decree establisheth the popish doctrine of implicite faith a Voetius select Disput. de quaestione peâ—…es quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica Thes 1. Thes. 4 Thes. 5. Ut auteÌ„ n ovuâ—… hic agendi modus colorem aliquem haberet tanto facilius multâ—…rum politicorum savor aut saltem Tolerantia Remonstranticis noviâ—…atibus conciaretur edituâ—… est ab Iohanne Vttenbogardo Ecclesialiste tunc Hagâ—… cometano tractatus de jure supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis Eâ—…ita fuerunt Grotij piet as ordinum Episcopij disputatio de jure magistratus circa sacra Barlei declamatio seu Philippica quaedam in ministros qui orthodoxam receptam religionem tuebantur c. Praeter quae vulgares vernaculi libelli quorum numerus innumerus consiones Remonstrantium nihil aliud quam authoritatem potestatem magistratuum perstrepebant nescio qua invidia orthodoxos pastores â—…orumque legitimos coâ—…ventus actiones Ecclesiasticas gravabant Et hac quidem inprimis in dictis duabus provincijâ—… nam in Geldria aliter canebant aut Mussitabant quod Ill. Curja conatibus ipsorum minimè faveret Idem fere accidebat in Frisia Amstelredami atque alibi ubi magistratus omnia contra Presbyteria pastores non statuebat ex 〈◊〉 aut in favorem Remonstrantium Post habitam synodum Dordracenam libelli ipsorum vernaculi longè alio stilo conscripti sunt quin in ipsa Apologia quam tamen magistratibus probari volebant cap. 25. potestatem hanc non parum limitant ac contrahunt quam tamen tam liberaliter ante hac ad mensâ—… erant b Vedelius de Episcop Constant. magni pag. 3 4 5 6. Arminiani è contrario in excessu peccant Etenim ante Synodum Dordracenam contendebant sub magistratu orthodoxo Ecclesiam per se nullam babere potestatem spiritualem ministros Ecclesiae officio suo defungi nomine magistratus ita ut magistratus quia ipse per alia negotia concionari c. non possit per ministros doceat qui vices ipsius gerant in docendo quem admndum vicarius Trajani Imperatoris vices gerebat sui Imperatoris Et sic ministros non habere suam potesâ—…atem à Christo sed à Magistratu qui quidem solus eam potestatem immediatè à Christo acceperit Gubernationem Ecclesiae assignabant soli magistratui ab ea excludentes ministros nisi in quantum essent vicarij instrumenta seu servi magistratus Speciatim electionem ministrorum seu vocationem item dopositionem tribuebant soli magistraâ—… c.
Contendebant etiamad solum magistratum immediatè sub Christo pertineâ—… judicium quando controversiae sidei â—…rtae sunt in Ecclesia Post Synodum in Confess Apol. cap. 25. negant ejuâ—… jus aut officium esse ad decreta Synodica ut ut verbo Dei conformia sint observanda obligare â—…omines sua auctoritate potestate ulla coactiva uti in ea parte negant etiam magistratum juâ—… habere in privatos conventus sed tantum in exercitia quae in templis seu locis publicis ad magistratum pertinentibuâ—… instituuntur Nam cum rebus sua ita consultum putarent aliter statuebaâ—…t contrarium quam admodum alibi a nobis est ostensum Robinson Apolog. cap. 11. de magistratu polit Idem prorsus sentimus de magistratu et illius munere quod ecclesiae Belgicae earum consessionâ—… hac in re ex animo suffragamur Burroughs oâ—… Hosea sixt Lect. pag. 164 165 166. â— Juâ—…us lib. 1. de Pontif. cap. 7 not 2. Nos ita distinguamus mâ—…gistratus qua magistratuâ—… est humanae societatis caput humana ordinatione qua Christianus vero est divinae societatis in Ecclesia membrum divina ordinatione in eadem custos vindex ordinis ut membrum electum ipsius not 4. se Christiani sâ—…t praestantia Ecclesiae membra b Voetius Disp. de quaest penes quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica part prim Thes. 4. Thes. 5. Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiâ—… cap. 25. Apolog quorum prius non posse magistraâ—…ii aâ—… decreta Synodica veâ—… Dei consorâ—…ia observandum sua authoritate obligare con stringere c Apolloâ—… juâ—… majest circa sacra par post cap 3 exam qu. 12. statuimus quoâ—… magistratus potestatem habeat coactivam qua res Ecclesiasticas ex praescripto verbi Dei constitut as legitima via urget subdit is imponit ad disciplinam Ecclesiae stabiliendaÌ„ Ecclesiasticum tuendum ordinem d M. S to A. S. p. 55 5â—… 57 58 59 â—…0 * Concedendum publicum ministerij 〈◊〉 â—…um omnibus suiâ—… circâ—…mstantijs politicis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consideratum eate nus magistratus directioni subjectum esse quod absque authoritate ejus approbativa seu confirmativa seu toâ—…erantiae jurisdictione ab Ecclesia publicè in ejus ditioneinstitui cum aâ—…paratu politico executioni maÌ„dari non possit nisi leges Reipublicâ—… junda mentales subditis id concedant tribuant Apollon jus majestatis circa sacra par post cap. 3. Exam quaest dâ—…decimae a Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiam Magistratus nullam esse potestateâ—… in privaâ—…s convenâ—…us sed â—…tum in publica tempta Voet. disput penes quos sit potest as Eccl. Thes. 4. a De quest Penes quos sit potest as Ecclesiastica b Wale Tractde officio ministrorum authoritate atque inspectione qua magistratus super ministros haberâ—… debet c Apollon sus majestatâ—… circasacra d Altera differentia d wateria sumitur subjectoque administrationum Politicae administrationis sub jectum esse res humanas in desâ—…tione nostra posuimus ecclesiasticae divinâ—… esse sacras docuimus Iunius Eccles. l. 3. c. 4. Habere magistratum qua talem publicam potestatem judicialem seu judicandi judicio cognitionis non tantum sed decinitivo de negot ijs caufis Ecclesiasticis Quod judiciâ—… consequens â—…st non antecedens neque enim sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia adhaec praesuppositive est Theologicum sed formaliter politicum quia disquisitio ultimata in eo non est an hoc sit verum sed an velint illud publica authoritate tueri exequi Voet de quaest penes quos sit potest as Eccl. par 1. Thes 4. Apoll â—…us majest circa sacra cap. a par post pag. 63 64 65 6â—… 67 68. Apollon â—…s majest circa sacra cap. 2. examen quaestionis septimae * Nam remedium extreâ—…um atque acerâ—…mum est ad carnem in homine domandaÌ„ ac spiritum vivisicandum exemplum efficacissimum ne pars sincera â—…rabatur adversus verâ—… eas qui in contunacia impâ—…itentia perseverant medium unicum ad Dei domum fermento Ecclesia Christi scandalia liberandam atque adeo verbum sacramenta a pro pbanatione nomen Dei ab externorum blasphematione vindicandum Synops Punor Theol. Disput. 48. de Eccl. discipl thes 59. * Illa vero quae a spirituall Christi regno aliena sunt effectus qui ad hoc coeleste Christi regnil pertinent producere nequeunt proinde quod institutione divina ad eos producendos non sunt sanctificata Disciplina 〈◊〉 c. clesiastica nihil statuit in hominum bona jura dignitates fortunas c. Sed paena quae clavium potestate inâ—…gitur spiritualis quâ—… hominem internum est spiritualem ejus slatum concernit At veroextra speram activitatis politici Magistratus est internum hominem subigers spiritutiem poenam conscient ijs inferre vel hominii animas ab ijs liberare Apoll. â—…us Majesâ—… circa sacra cap. a. exam quest 7. pag. 10â—… * Zanch. de Discipl Eccl. Ad bâ—…c multa etiam sunt scelera in quae ne Magistratus quidem Christianus animadvertere so let aut tenetur ex legibus suis vâ—…uti sunt privatae in â—…tiae simultaies participatio â—…um idalolatris in aliquo impio cultu dissimulatio verae religionis deniâ—… multi maâ—… mores tum domestick tum publick qui non turbant aut pacâ—…m publicam aut honestateÌ„ commodum publicumâ—… Ecâ—…lesia vero ne â—…sta quidem ferre debet sed corrigere juxta Christi iustiâ—…tum Zanch. de Discip Ecclesiast * Illi certè nullo modosinendi sunt vivere cii illorum temporaliâ—… vita alijs 〈◊〉 aeterna mors Zaâ—…ch de magistr 168. Beza Epist. 83. Zanch de Eccl. 〈◊〉 gubern p 552. 〈◊〉 quar praecept 713. Rotterdam Septemb. 4 tâ— 1641. New stile Apolog. Apolog * Peter Martyr loc commun Class 4 cap. 14. de exilio Groeâ—… etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a fugiendo exilium vocarent Reformat of Church-government Reformat of Church gover pag. 14. * Bez. Epist. â—…8 * Bez. Epist. 83 Apolog. Catal Haeretic Schlusselb lib. decimus de Sect a Stenck â—…elp * IndependeÌ„ce of particular Congregations pleaded for pag. 100 101 102 103 a Every particular Congregation is an absolute Church having no jurisdiction over it but Christs alone and that immediately page 52 59. a Mr. Herle The Independency on Scriptures of the Independencie of Churches h Rise growth and danger of Socinianisme page 65 66. Reasons against Independent government pag. 19. * A briefe Narration of some Church courses held in opinion and practise in New-England by W. R. M. Cottons letter from out of England to M. Skelton in New-England Ans. to 32 questions p. 82. Keyes of the kingdome of Heaven Epist. to the Reader * Schlusselb de