Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	unwritten_a	5,821	5	12.7929	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19252	Worke, more vvorke, and a little more work for a masse-priest Reviewed and augmented by the authour. VVith an epistle of an vnknowne priest remaining in London, sent to the authour, excepting against fiue points therein. With the authours answere thereunto: returned vnto the priest within twelue dayes after the receipt of the priests exceptions. ...; More worke for a Mase-priest	Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1632.; Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1632. Worke for a Masse-priest.; Cooke, Alexander, 1564-1632. Yet more worke for a masse-priest.	1628 (1628)	STC 5665; ESTC S117166	110,840	166

doth both wisely and well though perhaps the thing bee euill which he doth saith the Iesuite Anorius And In soro conscientiae ad effectum non peccandi sufficit cligere pro vera eius opinionem quem merito consemus esse virum idonea ad id scientia et conscientia praeditum It is enough to cleare vs in the Court of conscience from sin if wee follow his opinion whom vpon good ground we take to be a learned and a conscionable man saith Navarrus And this being thus doth it not from hence follow that they who take Creswell and Parsons and Bellarmine and Bannes for learned and honest men may put in practise whatsoever one of them thinks lawfull May not they who thinke Iohannes Mariana who holds it lawfull to poyson Kings a learned and an honest man poyson Kings without sinne May not they who thinke Garnet one of the Powder traytors a learned and an honest man by his example and by his approving of the Treatise of Aequiuocation aequiuocate with out sinne May not they who thinke Binetus a learned and an honest men conceale without sinne whatsoeuer is told them in confession though that concealing cost the liues of all the Kings in Christendome yea in the world they knowing that Binetus was of that minde 17 You teach g that the Word of God is partly written partly vnwritten and the written word you call Scripture the vnwritten Tradition yet you vndertake to prooue diuers of your opinions both by Scripture and by Tradition As for example Praying to Saints praying for the dead setting vp of Images in Churches and worshipping them when they are set vp Christs descention into hell the virgine 〈◊〉 perpetuall virginitie c. Now I would know with what honestie you can alledge Scripture for that which you say is a tradition or tradition for that which you say you haue Scriptures Can one and the same truth be written and not written 18 You teach that it was not meete all mysteries should be written in Scripture lest every ordinary person should come to the knowledge of them and because of the commonnes of them contemne them Now I desire to know why the mysteries of the Trinitie should be written in Scripture rather then those mysteries you speake of if there be such danger that ordinary persons should attain to the knowledge of whatsoever is written in Scripture and vpon the knowledge of them should contemne them Secondly I desire to know why it should be lesse meete that the mysteries you speake of should be written in Scripture then in the Fathers and in your Catechismes Ordinary persons are as like to come to the knowledge of them by reading if not the Fathers yet of your Catechismes wherein you discourse of them as large as if they were written in Scripture Are they not thinke you 19 Men say you teach that Licet praeceptum prelati sit irrationale pro tali merito quandeque haberi potest tenetur tamen subditus illud obseruare Though the commandement of the superiour be vnreasonable and may well enough be thought so yet the Inferiour is bound to obey it Men say you teach Si Papa erraret pracipiendo vitia velpro hibendo virtutes teneretur Ecclesia credere vitia esse bona et virtutes malas nisi vellet cōtra consctentiam peccare that if the Pope should erre in commaunding vice and forbidding vertue the Church was bound to belieue vnles she would sin against her conscience that vice was commendable and vertue dispraisable Men are bound Papae sententiam ' exequi to put the Popes sentence in execution albeit they know it to be vniust Any man Illaesa consceentia with a good conscience may execute the Popes vnlawfull mandate by your learning Now I pray you how agrees this doctrine with that of the Apostles Acts 5. 29. It is better to obey God then man 16 Sir Priest I reade in your bookes that your Pope is called Caput totius Ecclesiae Pater Ecclesiae Filiu● Ecclesiae Sponsus Ecclesiae Mater Ecclesia The head of the whole Church the Father of the Church the sonne of the Church the Spouse of the Church the Church our mother Now I would know of you how hee can be the Church her selfe and yet head of the Church and the Churches husband How hee can be Father to the Church and yet a sonne of the Church How without committing incest the father may marry his daughter the brother may marrie his sister the sonne may marrie his mother 17 I reade in your bookes that your Pope is not onely called the Vicar of Christ and Successour of S. Peter but S. Peters Vicar and Christs Successor in respect of the gouernment of the Church Now here I desire to know two things of you first how your Pope comes to be S. Peters Vicar seeing S. Peter himselfe is but a Vicar and it is a rule in your Law f Vicarius non potest substi●●●● Vicarium A Vicar cannot substitute a Vicar Secondly how without blasphemie your Pope can be called Christs Successour seeing hee to whom another succeedeth in office doth cease himselfe to beare that office as Felix did cease to bee Gouernour in Iurie when Festus came in place to be his successour I hope you doe not thinke that Christ who endureth for euer hath turned over all care of his Church to your Pope 22 I reade in your bookes that in the yeare 1552. your Pope was intituled by a certaine Patriarke called Siud The Peter of our time and the Paul of our dayes and that Clemens the eight was intituled by one Gabriel Patriarke of Alexandria Tertius decimus Apostolorum gloriosi Domini nostri Iesu Christi quintus sanctorum Evangelistarum The thirteenth Apostle of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ and the fift Evangelist And that Genebrard approoved of the titles which Siud gaue and Baronius of those which Gabriel gaue Now I desire to know of you why Genebrard should like that any Pope should be called the Peter of our time seeing Sergius the fourth being christened Peter vpon his election to be Pope in reverence to St. Peter renounced the name of Peter and tooke the name of Sergius and secondly how Clemens the eight can with any wisedome be held the thirteenth Apostle of our Saviour Christ and the fifth Evangelist considering there were seven Popes of his owne name and vpon the point of 230 Popes of other names before him For I cannot heare that he was such an A perse as that he deserued these titles rather then any of his predecessors And if all or any of his predecessors deserved to be called Apostles and Evangelists Gabriel in my opinion failed in his Arithmeticke when he termed him the thirteenth Apostle and the fifth Evangelist 23 I reade in your bookes that the jurisdiction of your Pope is boundlesse His Dominion as

pierce his feete and to eate nothing but bread baked on the imbers and to drinke nothing but vineger mingled with gall and to weare nothing but that which was made of Camels haire and to lie vpon the bare earth with a stone vnder his head in stead of a pillow made choise to abide all this rather then to abide in Purgatorie one day longer Now I desire to know what the reason might bee that God in the next world should torment his friends it so horrible manner whom he would haue quit from blame in this world for a thing of nothing 90 A Gentleman of Germanie payed a yearely annuitie out of his lands to a Monasterie not farre from him bequeathed by his father to the end that the Monkes therein should pray for the deliverance of his fathers soule out of Purgatorie Now in processe of time the Gentleman vnderstood that the Monkes of that Monasterie brag'd much of certaine Indulgences which they had lately procured affirming that whosoever would buy them of them might deliver out of Purgatorie what soule soever they desired Hereupon the Gentleman pretending great care to free his fathers soule from Purgatorie made offer of a good large summe of money vpon condition they would make him good assurance that by those Indulgences his fathers soule should be indeed delivered The Monkes sweare he neede not doubt hereof for it was certaine he should be delivered yet for his better securitie they procure it to be confirmed vnder the seale of their Monasterie and of their Order and cause it to be subscribed with their owne hands and the hand of their Generall that by the purchase of those Indulgences his fathers soule was vndoubtedly delivered out of Purgatorie With these assurances the Gentleman departed And when the Monks vpon his fathers Anniversary day came vnto him for their Annuity hee denied the payment because his fathers soule was delivered by the Indulgences which they sold him With which answer the Monks were discontented and complained of the Gentleman to the Bishop who gaue iudgement that the Gentleman must continue the paiment of the Annuitie to which iudgement the Gentleman refused to stand My desire is you would deliver me your opinion whether the Bishop had better reason to giue such a iudgement or the Gentleman to refuse the iudgement 91 A Countrey fellow was wont in merriment to say That hee was verily perswaded there were but a sew soules in Purgatorie or rather none at all For which hee was at length called in question by the Inquisitors Now he confessed that he had often said so and thought he had good proofe for it For quoth he you and such as you are teach vs that none go to Purgatorie but penitent Christians who haue not in this life fully satisfied for their sinnes And you teach vs withall That every Masse delivers one soule at least out of Purgatorie and that the first-Masse of every Priest delivers fifteen soules and that innumerable soules are delivered by Indulgences Now wee all know that in every village and towne there are more Masses said every day then there dies penitent Christians And how then is it possible that there should bee any soules in Purgatorie Was not this case prettily argued 92 Tecelius the Pardoner bragd hee could forgiue sinnes to come and past Hereupon a Germain Gentleman procured of him a pardon for a sinne to come and afterwards robd the Pardoner as he passed through a Forrest professing that that was the sinne for which hee procured the pardon which hee bought of him Did not the Gentleman serue the Pardoner right 93 You define your Church to be a companie of men professing one faith vnder one head to wit the Pope Whereupon it must needs follow must it not thinke you that when you haue no Pope you haue no Church Now after the death of every Pope there is a time wherin there is no Pope Your Chaire stands emptie sometimes many dayes sometimes many yeares And doth it not thereon follow that after the death of every of your Popes there is a time wherein you haue no Church 94 You brag as much of the name of the Church as the Iewes of olde did of the Temple of the Lord. At every other word almost the Church is in your mouthes And if you champion Campian lie not Audito Ecclesiae nomine hostis expalluit Wee no sooner heare of the name of the Church but our hearts faile vs. Now I pray you of all loues tell what you meane by the Church when you say the Church is Iudex omnium controversiarum Iudge of all controversies and that Infallibilitas verbi Dei ex Ecclesiae testimonio pendet The infallibilitie of the word of God depends vpon the Church and that we must heare the Church Are you of Gretzers mind who saith that in these particulars Per Ecclesiam intelligimus Romanum Pontificem By the Church we meane the Pope If so much good doe you with your Church I had rather be of a poore Chappelrie then one of your Church 95 It is said that all your Priests take this oath Ego N. sacram Scripturam iuxta eum sensum quem tenuit tenet sancta mater Ecclesia cuius est iudicare de vero sensu interpretatione sacrarum Scripturarum admitto nec e●m vnquam nisi iuxta vnanimem consensum Patrum accipiam interpretab●r that is I such a one do take the holy Scripture in that sense which my holy mother the Church whose dutie it is to iudge which is the true sense of Scripture hath taken it and takes it in neither will I ever take it in other sense then such as the Fathers giue thereof with one conset Now if you do so I would know how you can cleare your selues from periurie seeing it is plaine you sometimes take and expound Scriptures in that sense which never Father gaue of them As for example Mica 7. v. 8 9. which you alledge for Purgatorie for no Father did ever so expound it Sometimes you take and expound them in that sense which is contrary to some Fathers as when you expound the words in 24. of Prov. v. 16. of falling into sin for Non de iniquitatibus sed de tribulationibus loquitur The text speakes not of falling into sinne but of falling into adversitie saith Austin de Civitate Dei lib. 11. cap. 31. Sometimes you take and expound them in that sense which is contrary to all the Fathers which we find to haue interpreted them as when you take Christs words Ioh. 10. 16. which he spake of one Shepheard to be meant of your Pope and not of Christ himselfe for the Fathers say that by one Shepheard Christ meant himselfe 96 I am told you commend the Collier who being asked by a Divell as he lay on his death-bed or by a Cardinall as he was travailing on the way how he beleeved returned answer

was so evill conceited of the Romanes that they should write Vbi Romani ibi vitia where Romanes come there is roguerie enough Onely since I haue heard or rather read so much in others And therefore if your Logicke be good I cannot report these things hee who though I told them should say I did report them should say a manifest vntruth But if this be a grosse conceit as doubtlesse it is you must acknowledge you did me wrong yea your selfe wrong in charging me with vntruth for saying Our Noble King reporteth c. though he knew not at the time of his Baptisme what Message she sent to any man c. for therin you belied me and bewrayed much weaknesse in arguing But perhaps you haue quit your selfe better in proving the second vntruth wherwithall you charge me Truly never a whit for you gather the vntruth wherewith you charge me from those words wherin I report from our Noble King That his Mother forbad the vse of spittle in Baptisme and your onely reason to convince me of vntruth therein is for that as you say it is incredible the Catholicke Queen would forbid the Ceremonie of spittle which holy Church vseth Which answer first presupposeth that he is chargeable with vntruth who reports any vntruth from another else how can I bee charged with vntruth who am the reporter onely from another man what was said Secondly this presupposeth that holy Church vseth to put spittle into their mouthes who are baptized else why should the practise of holy Church bee mentioned to proue that a Catholicke Queene would not forbid such a Ceremonie But these are false suppositions for which concerns the first That every man is not chargeable with vntruth who reports an vntruth it is plaine by Scripture wherein many vntruths are truly reported As for example Gen. 37. 33 Moses truly reports that Iacob said A wicked beast had devoured his sonne Ioseph though indeed it was vntrue that a wicked beast had devoured Ioseph Secondly that holy Church your holy Church vseth not to put spittle into their mouthes who are to bee baptized all your bookes which speake of the Ceremonies vsed in Baptisme at this day generally doe witnesse but especially your Cardinall Bellarmine for he saith expressely that solùm aures nares salivâ tanguntur the eares and nostrills onely are touched with spittle in Baptisme Neither hee nor any other writer in this age knew of any spittle which was put into the mouthes of such as were to be baptized And therefore the second vntruth which you would fasten on me returnes vpon your selfe accompanied with Arguments proceeding from a little head And so will the third vntruth wherewithall you charge me returne likewise for it consists in this that I say Our noble King reports his Mother said shee would not haue a pockie Priest to spit in her childes mouth Which as you say but proue not is doubtlesse a wicked lie For to suppose it were a wicked lie which I beleeue not what is that to me It is true I say Our noble King reports it If there were an vntruth in it yet I should be innocent of it But why Sir Masse-priest are you so confident that it is doubtlesse a wicked lie she called him a pockie Priest I hope you doubt not but that your Church notwithstanding her holinesse hath had many pockie Priests and perhaps she knew more by him then either you or I Sure I am that his Maiesties grandfather who as some of you say was a Catholike hanged him within a few yeares after for an arrant Traytor And if an arrant Traytor why not a pockie Priest And if hee being a Catholike hanged him why might not she though a Catholike call him pockie Priest The fourth vntruth wherewithall you charge me is That I say our noble King reports his Mother said the Priest spitteth in the childes mouth for shee could not say so and con●equently would not say so say you whereof you giue this reason viz. That the spittle is not spit into the childes mouth but is gently put into the childes mouth with the Priests finger In this Sir Priest you shew your selfe a young Priest and one of little skill in your Pontificalls and of small practise in your profession for at this day and in those Countreys there is no spittle put into any childs mouth by any manner of way as before I noted though if it vvere as you say my credit is no vvay tainted by this for I onely relate it as from our King in vvhose booke you may finde it Here by the way you take occasion to tell how your holie Church vseth this Ceremonie by Imitation of Christs example putting spittle and dust vpon a blind mans eyes and putting his finger into the eares and touching the tongue of a deafe and dumbe man whom he cured Which note you might more honestly haue passed by then made considering it bewrayeth a great deale of foolerie in your holy Church For is it not foolerie to vse your spittle in baptizing because our Saviour Christ with his spittle made a kind of clay by which hee miraculously cured a man that was blind Is it not foolerie to touch with your spittle the eares and nostrills of such as are to bee baptized because our Saviour Christ touched the eares and the tongue of one whom he cured of deafnesse and dumbnesse with his spittle Is your spittle answerable to his spittle Is there any wisdome in applying that to spirituall vses which he applyed onely to corporall to doe that ordinarily which he did onely once extraordinarily to doe that to every one which he did to one onelie To omit that notwithstanding your shew of imitating him you neither vse Clay in Baptisme nor touch the tongue of the baptized as he touched the tongue of the dumbe Methinkes this your imitation is Apish certainlie you haue no warrant for it from antiquitie the holie primitiue Church knew no such Ceremonie in Baptisme Wherefore I subscribe to him who said Your spittle is fitter for the Spittle then for the Church And let this serue for answere vnto the first fower vntruthes which you thought you did see but did not see in the first words of my first obiection as you call it To the foure former vntruthes you say I haue added three more against Bellarmine The first whereof is that I vntrulie translate his wordes making him say thus It is not true that the Priests spittle vsed in Baptisme is put into the childes mouth Whereas he saith no more in true English then It is not true the Priests spittle is spit into the Childes mouth But this is one of your fooleries and no vntruth of mine My translation of his wordes is answerable to his meaning for he fansied no difference betweene spitting in and putting in of spittle Hee knew no vse of spittle for any part but for eares and Nostrills Solùm aures nares salivâ tanguntur