Traditions Act. 16. 4. this is one Act. 15. 29. To abstaine from bloud and strangled Exempt such dishes specified from such dressing haue with you to Masse to Mr. Mayes as I am inuited by Sir A. P◠peraduenture your selfe 2 Tim. 1. 13. We finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the forme of wholesome words in our Bibles And if this be Traditions vnwritten iudge you good Catholiques and set not so high a price vpon this arrant blunderer then whom a verier Goose neuer handled Goose-quill And so goe see if your leasure will serue Fathers that affirme somewhat not what they should The first you must see if you please is Irenaeus Lib. 3. cap. 4. for he will not trouble your seeing with Clemens Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Polycarpus Egesippus Iustinus Martyr all elder than Irenaeus and vaunted of by his good masters and no doubt as much to poynt as Irenaeus who yet is held to be resolute and irrefrageable in that place Propter quod oportet deuitare quidem illos quae autem sunt Ecclesiae cum summâ diligentia deligere apprehendere veritatis Traditionem For which cause wee must shun and eschew them but with all possible diligence make choyce of the things belonging to the Church and lay hold vpon the Tradition of truth Which Tradition is no other thing but the rule of our faith The holy Scripture nothing vnwritten vncertaine beside much lesse against Scripture This is somewhat in your opinion but that which is the thing intended indeede is this which followeth in Irenaeus Et si quibus de aliquâ modicâ quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum re liquidum est Thus hee questioneth I answere affirmatiuely yes No doubt we ought for resolution in poynts of doubtfull controuersie relye vpon that decision of the eldest Churches Doe we refuse this triall good Sir Gagger Where you will in what poynt you will I vndertake thus to iustifie the Church of England name you the Controuersie one or moe and maintaine the contrary if you can or dare The question is not with Irenaeus what must be Law but how the Law is to be expounded and interpreted Scripture the Law and Tradition the Interpretation that is the perpetuall praxis of the Church to expound the doubtfull texts of Scripture But Irenaeus proceedeth farther than so it will be said For What if the Apostles had left vs no writing at all Nonne oportet ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias Farther indeede but to no purpose this is vpon supposition If it had been so which is not so nor could be so Secondly it followeth not that because if God had not giuen Israei a Law it is probable hee would haue continued his former course with Abraham Isaac and the Patriarchs therefore when he had giuen them his Law they were still to looke for immediate or Angelicall Reuelations as before No more is it consequent to reason pietie or Irenaeus intent that albeit if no Scripture had beene written onely Tradition must haue beene followed therefore Scripture being written wee should as otherwise addresse our selues vnto Tradition But thirdly wee come home to poynt Shew vs any thing tendred by those Ecclesiae antiquissimae to be belieued and obserued and see if wee respect it not as well and as much as you Till you shew vs such Traditions leaue your prating idlely at randome touching worth and weight and vse and authoritie of Traditions Your Traditions tendred in these dayes are onely in name as Simon Magus was and Simon Peter the same no more of credite than hee of pietie both alike Origen is next to be seene in cap. 6. ad Roman Hee calleth Baptisme of Infants a Tradition and let it be so It is the vniuersall iudgement and most ancient practise of the Catholique Church deduced at least from Scripture if not proued in Scripture as the controuersor himselfe confesseth Be it a Tradition it is more for our aduantage than otherwise For we admit receiue defend and practise it which must needes giue the lye vnto your proposition That according to the Doctrine of the Protestants Apostolicall traditions ancient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige For the World knoweth your brazen face will blush to deny it wee receiue it practise it are obliged by it S. Damascen may stand by vnlesse you meane to make your friends with him a childe in yeares of yesterdayes birth in respect of those old Heroes of the Primitiue times Not that he saith any thing Lib. 4. cap. 17. more than an other or more effectuall and to purpose but because he is not of that desert or esteeme to be ranked with the Fathers of the Primitiue times being long post natus and a Partian many wayes for which cause I answere him not S. Chrysostome is peremptory and through for Traditions In 2. ad Thessal 2. vers 16. he saith Hence it is plaine and apparant that the Apostles deliuered not all in writing but very many things without booke Thus hee but to what end For no Protestant liuing in his right wits will deny this That the Apostles spake much more then is written And whatsoeuer they spake as Apostles in execution of their Ministery is of equall authority with that which they wrote For inke and paper conferre no authoritie or validity beyond the subiect and author of the writing Therefore the Tradition of the Apostles and of the Church is without all question of good credite and esteeme and so much wee professe Art 34. I graunt it hath displeased some which is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is Tradition which auoweth it seeke no further I see no reason why any should be so displeased therewith For if it be a Tradition of the Catholique Church and such Traditions onely hee meaneth Chrysostome saith there no more than hee may No more than Augustine and Tertullian haue said It is Tradition I goe no further No more will◠in any thing for my part I promise you that is controuerted betwixt you and vs at this day Make that appeare which you propose to haue been a Tradition of the Catholique Church and you and I shall soone agree shake hands and no more adoe Saint Basil you haue kept for the close it seemeth and for the vpshot of all and he indeed is in the place remembred very much for all Traditions vnwritten deriued to the Church from the Apostles I know some Protestants especially of preciser cut doe discredit the Author as a Counterfeit onely vpon Erasmus bare word who sauoured some discongruity which I could neuer finde of stile I am not of that or their minde Others being at a stand because of their owne priuate fancies oppose Saint Basil vnto Saint Basil For my part I beleeue
the Decisions and Edicts of Popes the inquisitors of Heresie and such like inhibitions to the contrary There are publique Resolutions held of all and priuate opinions maintained by some by men particular in their owne Conceits and Societies in a more generall agreement in things indifferent not de fide or if yet of a looser and lower tye and alloy As those are proposed resolued maintained tendred and commanded So the other are free and disputed and questioned not enioyned as de fide or Subscribed because Problematicall and no more If a man should collect the priuate opinions of priuate men which are differences in Schooles among Schollers nay of the Master of Controuersies or of sentences and impute them vnto the Church of Rome the Faith of Rome this Gagger if hee know what to doe and his gagle would refuse them disclaime them thinke themselues wronged proclaime themselues belied as Bellarmine doth often in the like case Ex aequo bono and more maiorum we may doe the like Yet see the honesty of this Imposter against vs in this his poore pamphlet He hath collected together out of C. W. B. and such companions and disposed as it hapned without order or method xlvii seuerall propositions All pretended errours of the Church of England because all contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles and repugnant to Antiquity in the Writings of the Fathers so to fasten Noueltie and Heresie and Impietie vpon our Church Of these xlvii onely viii or ix are the Doctrines of our Church 6. 13. 15. 18. 30. 36. 42. 44. and yet not all these as they are by him abused embeasted confounded and circumscribed The rest are partly left at libertie by the Church not determined for doctrines either way Many imposed by him on the Church are directly disclaimed abandoned oppugned by the Church and the flat contrary to them commended and commanded And accordingly belieued practised and maintained against oppugners A maior part are the meere opinions priuate fancies peculiar propositions of priuate men many of them disclaimed by the very Authors some falsely imputed to their Authors some raked together out of the lay-stals of deepest Puritanisme as much opposing the Church of England as the Church of Rome So that whatsoeuer is in this Gagger is or childishly fancied or ridiculously mistaken or wilfully peruerted or slanderously imputed or maliciously proposed or ambiguously conceiued or not iustified any way as may euidently appeare in the particulars in my answere ensuing In which Whatsoeuer is to be owned by the Church as resolued and tendred and subscribed in the authorised Doctrine or Practise thereof is by mee iustified fully against him and shall be maintained against his betters as not contrary to Antiquitie in the Tradition of the Church much lesse vnto Scriptures in our owne Bibles What is inuolued by him malitiously to procure enuy to the side is explicated and asserted to the proper tenents and termes it is shewed how farre the Church of England resolueth where and what things are left free and vndetermined for men to hold with them or against them Priuate opinions are left vnto their Authors and Abettors olde enough and able enough to speake for themselues In a publique cause as is the Faith of Gods Church peculiar interests that I know haue no such share at least ouer-awing as to commaund vndertaking against opponents In answering of whom to come vnto my course obserued with him which I thought fit in conueniency to let the Reader vnderstand for my owne excuse and iustification I haue gone along with him cap apee and point per point first for his Scriptures both expresse and to be seene then for his Fathers that affirme the same that is nothing to purpose as little as his Scriptures did as I could finde them quoted or could guesse at them by imagining where they mought be probably spoken withall or where I could remember to haue some time left them For our Catholiques Romish secure no question of the goodnes of their cause or rather relying vpon the tractablenesse of their patient Proselytes so they can make a dumbe shew with scoring vp Fathers doe not much trouble themselues with caring where or what they say So this Gagger stood affected it is more than apparant For I was often left to goe blowe the seeke for his Fathers For poore man he tooke them vp as hee could finde them by tale without weight or triall Some few peraduenture in the country abroad but the maior part by farre out of C. W. B. What he is I cannot tell and as hee hath them truely or falsly quoted rightly registred or mistaken so in euery poynt are they in the Gagge vnlesse worse Such supine negligence secure discoursing childish disputing in such a Master in Israel Such infant-like performance in such a Goliah vpon whose head the Philistines haue set vp their rest I speake no more in effect than I haue heard of him since I vndertooke him who can beare Beside the scurrilous fellow according to his breeding and education it seemeth sure I am fitting enough his disposition commeth in with Coblers and Bakers and Tinkers and Tapsters and Hosts and Hostesses and bottles and bottle-ale Insulteth vpon poore Protestants Out of their wits sicke in their wits Prateth of Horses and Asses praying and such like stuffe out of his Coblersshop or Hostesses ale-bench no doubt And who is able to possesse his Soule or containe his pen in patience that hath to doe with such Impostors Mountebankes and Buffones such rake-shames and rakehels as these ramblers are I confesse that subiects of this nature should aboue all be moderately calmely and quietly handled but so if wee meete with moderate men with quiet men with temperate honest and discreet men with men not proiected prostituted and giuen ouer vnto lying calumniating traducing of all that concurre not with them as this companion and his comerades are who haue no intent to make vp any ruines or decayed places in the Church to heale the sores cure the wounds mollifie the swellings cleanse out the empostumations in the mysticall body of Christ that ayme not at peace nor would procure vnity nor any way indeauour that those who professe Gods holy name may agree in the truth of his holy word and liue in vnity and godly loue but make their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their whole indeauour their speciall study day and night by all kinde of iniquity to keepe a faction on foot and maintaine opposition euen where it needeth not Such are to be curryed in their kinde and to be rubbed as they deserue in no case to be smoothed or sleeked ouer lest they please themselues too well in their impiety It was euer held lawfull to call a spade a spade Saint Paul gaue not Elimas any gentle termes nor did Saint Peter speake butter and hony vnto Simon Magus Our Sauiour himselfe that man of meekenesse called Herod a Fox and Iudas a Deuil when they deserued it
I confesse I haue dealt with this man as I would not haue dealt with euery one nor so as happely my person and calling would in some mens opinion require but sure as he and such as he deserue to be dealt withall For shall I suffer him to rayle vpon to blaspheme to calumniate to belye so impudently the Church of England as he doth beside his Tapster-like phrases of Ale and Hostesses and not make him heare of it on both his eares but guild him ouer with good language 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let himselfe or his companions or any Papist in the packe goe honestly sincerely soberly scholler-like to worke Let him set affection faction partiallity sinister ends apart Let him come home to the poynts controuerted without rowling rambling rauing ioyne issue instantly with the Question where it lyeth I am for him no man more ready more willing more submisse more desirous to goe calmely and sedate to worke for Gods glory the Churches tranquilitie the good and benefit of my selfe and others To learne to heare to be aduised to yeeld to euidence and conuicting proofe out of Scriptures out of Fathers the totall Tradition of the Church No otherwise willing to deale with moderate men then I haue and doe with that worthie Baronius in his kinde But for this man those that thinke otherwise must pardon me As a wise man is to be heard with attention so a foole must be answered according to his folly And so haue I answered this goodly Gagger Thus Curteous Reader hauing giuen thee an account of my comming vpon this employment and secondly of my carriage of it with the reason of my demeanure in it I come to the Gagger to cope with him leauing thee to the Protection of the Almighty Windsor December 28. Thine in Christs seruice RI MOVNTAGV THE PREFACE answering that of the Gagger's to his Catholike Reader IAm not nor would you haue me it seemeth by your inscription Sir Gagger much interessed in this your Preface For you will not I suppose admit meâ— for one of your Curteous Readers and I professe I am none of your Catholike Readers that is as you intend it according to the Romancutt Your inscription is onely to the Catholike Reader your addresse alone vnto the Cuâ—â—eous Reader And sure I am you neede both the one and other Catholike and Curteous or none at all to ouer-view your pure Naturalls Indeed because Catholike beleeuing any thing therefore so curteous admitting admiring any thing You are sure of a Curteous one without more adoe if he be a Catholike one that readeth it Such Readers you leade in a string by the nose you neede not pray them their patience spare that paines and engagement you are sure enough of so much patience as heart can wish though otherwise affected or but indifferent Readers would count it a pressure to peruse such idle treatises as you permit your selues leaue to send amongst them But Sir what incongruity is this which your Gagger-ship presenteth vs with at the first Gaping It was intended by you and accordingly fitted to choke vp the new Gospell and Gospellers for euer The very title doth challenge that opinion and threaten that performance and yet see your vnaduisednesse you would not haue it put into their mouths at all Catholikes alone are addressed and inuited to it that is Biddengape to begagged They onely are to reade it and to receiue aduice in what sort to vse it that is to serue themselues thereof with fruit and profit Whereas in all Eristicall discourses those ad oppositum are to be Readers if not onely yet principally as men to be conuerted or confounded of that which is written against them For my part I desire not nor would I willingly maske vnder a Catholike cloake at all yet as some Protestants sometime out of a desire to be Eye-witnesses of your Antique trickes there doe couertly repaire vnto your Masses so for once I care not if I take vpon me the stile of a Curteous and Catholike Reader to heare your aduice concerning those same points which are so very necessary for your Catholikes in perusing this treatise the better to serue themselues thereof with fruit and profit in all and in the seuerall points no doubt of great and much behoouefull obseruance The first point is an excuse of some negligence or at least ouersight in the very title of the Pamphlet For whereas the refutation of the errors of the Protestants so vaunted of was vndertaken to be out of expresse texts of their owne Bibles this indetermined generality may amuse and puzle the Reader who will be to seeke without all question out of which English Bible the alleaged passages are extracted Well thought vpon and to purpose Bonum factum had hee beene so punctuall and precise in his Texts of Fathers to bee seene for affirming God knoweth what oftentimes in none of which the editions are specified being many diuers and different In many of which no place designed or but at rouers and randon or els falsly and not to purpose Some aduice would haue beene thought vpon here Bibles are of more speciall care I grant Therefore as this was necessarily done so in discretion that should not haue beene left vndone And yet what such necesssity to tell the Reader out of which English Bible they were alleadged Great doubtlesse For Qui bené distinguit bene docet England hath brought forth within these few yeares past to the number of twenty seuerall Bibles I grant that perchance to the number of twenty and twenty thousand in many seuerall impressions and editions in folio in quarto in octauo as many hath Rome and Lions and Antwerpe and Paris and other places nay farre moe brought forth seuerall sorts of the vulgar Latine and sent them abroad into the world It was very vnaduisedly therefore done of Bellarmine Valentia Vasquez and the rest of our Controuersors not to giue vs a speciall direction vnto that precise Edition which they followed as you haue done for yours of 1615. in quarto by Robert Barker that we might addresse our selues in perusing Controuersies vnto the Edition by them followed the time place and quantity thereof Surely a materiall and most remarkeable aduice Catholikes could neuer haue perused this treatise with profit without this Oh but the Protestants sorts of Bibles are sarre different one from another Meane you in forme So are yours but then you enlarge beyond art and skill There are but fiue seuerall forms of Bibles at the most You mean in matter For the translations differing one from an other Then in plaine English you lye Name me ten of this twenty if you can Some different Translations there haue beene of late but authorized I know but two The Bishops as they call it and this last which hath perchance beene printed in seuerall formes twenty and twenty times but without diuersity in the Translation So that you might as well haue directed your
arise about the meaning of things expressed by those words There is none at all or little contention about the words of Scripture All is about the sense meaning of the Scripture how we may grow vnto resolution where doubts and ambiguities do intervene I will not goe with you about the bush I come home vp to your own desire The warrant authority of the holy Fathers that is the practise and tradition of the Church shall regulate I promise you my resolution and settle my iudgement in things that are huius controuersi I will not put in exceptionem fori For I am assured I need not I appeale vnto antiquity and will follow you where you dare aduenture to call me I know your performance that way I laugh at your vanity in braging of Fathers that haue vnderstood these places in the selfe same sense that Catholikes doe What Fathers haue said for you in Gagging our mouths I haue examine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euery one Their answers to the questions proposed to them their resolution for the points remembred he that will know may finde and as he findeth so pronounce What we can doe in our defence may appeare when we come to be defendants This I will promise out of my ownepoore reading I will droppe Fathers with a better read man then you are in them point per point and if I say not more for my cause that is for iustifying the Church of England then you haue done for calumniating of it or can say for iustifying your Popish faith I will be reconciled to Pope Vrbans faction For vnto the Church I neede none We vse not Sir scurility to consult with Coblers or Bakers or Tinkers they and their Trulls may meet at their stawling kenns with such clapperdogeons as your selfe Little better are those Patrons of your forlorne cause Abdias Amphilochius Martialis and others and those Tararagmales the Decretall Epistles of the Popes scullen-boyes making or the outcasts of some groomes of his stable Tertullian Basill Chrysostome and the rest of the worthies of their times we neither geld nor delumbate for speaking too plaine nor vse them like you as merchants doe their counters sometimes for a que sometime for a thousand pound Euer in their place we heare them speake rise vp with reuerence at their asseuerations yeeld vnto their dogmaticall conclusions Take not this as an enlargement or braggadochianisme I that say it will performe it Put me to it as you can or dare if I flye from antiquity hisse at me for euer I could haue played the foole in alliteration and hunted the letter as you haue done But I speake plaine English without a Cobler for Chrysost a Tinker for Tertullian a Baker for Basill Then Tertullian Basill Chrysostome and the rest of their compeeres I desire no better dayesman or Diribitores betwixt you and me Therefore set your heart at rest set out when you will I will walke along with you to the Fathers houses and stand to their award whatsoeuer But the fift and last is any thing rather then aduice indeed vox and praeterea nihil pure Popish Catholicisme that is insolent triumphing before victory nay before stroke striken in the field diuiding of the spoiles of poore Protestants men of no action or performance at all men that will looke before they leape and goe warily and wisely to worke neuer sell the skinne before the beare is slaine It may be some one nay any one Protestant that hath but beene at Rama and saluted the schoole of the Prophets can discerne Saul amongst them a fellow that as idly taketh God to witnesse as Saul bound Israell foolishly with an oath which in conclusion might haue cost him deare The man was afraid he should hardly finde credit vpon his word being happely knowne for one amongst his people that will speake when he cannot doe or meaneth not to make performance therefore he putteth forward with an oath and protesteth in the presence of God more then he is able beleeue me Reader to make good That it is not in the power of all the Protestants in England to finde in their owne Bibles one onely expresse text what to doe by which they can possibly prooue one onely point of the false doctrine I might say he doth aequiuocate in false doctrine and intendeth a refuge when he is shamed viz. That false doctrine is not prooued by our Bibles But I cauill not at words I take his meaning He suppeseth all our doctrine is false and not to be iustified out of Scripture Which if it be not I will grant it false and am ready to disclaime and to abiure it It is our doctrine he saith No man can forgiue sinnes but God If it be there is expresse text for it and that also exclusiue Luc. 5. 21. Who can forgiue sinnes but God onely An interrogation in your owne learning is equivalent to a Negatiue None but God can forgiue sinnes Here is neither adding nor diminishing nor changing ought Your owne Authenticke Latin hath it so Quis potest dimittere peccata nisi solus Deus It is our doctrine he saith No man hath seene God at any time If it be so it is expresse words of our and your Bibles No man hath seene God at any time Deum nemo vidit vnquam Iohan. 1. 18. Here are two texts that is more then one onely in their Bibles also not onely in our owne expresse as may be without adding diminishing or changing to prooue two points of our doctrine imputed vnto vs by himselfe collected out of his obseruations and yet the brasen face and leaden heart is not ashamed to bragge it so Catholikely and call God to record of an apparent lye It is our doctrine that some things are hard in diuine Scripture Saint Peter 2. 3. 16. saith as much It is our doctrine some things are easie Heb. 2. 2. Write the vision and make it plaine vpon tables that he who runneth may reade it Deut. 30. 11. This commandement which I cōmand thee this day is not hid frō thee neither is it farre off It were easie to passe through all points of controuerted opinions and shew the vanity of this vaunt the confident impudency of this Ignaro But extra oleus this is no place for that purpose I may happely finde him more worke this way then he can handsomely cleere his hands of in hast without adding art diminishing changing or such like practises of litting Law the Architectonicall science of our Popish Catholickes Ex animi tui sententia Gagger Who are more likely to play such trickes of legerdemaine those that neuer vsed to pare prune shaue gold or correct Authours but plainely send them foorth in puris naturalibus as they finde them or those that make a trade and profession of it and blush not to publish vnto the world that all Writers old or new sacred and prophane must speake as our Masters will haue them speake or hold
what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
Ecclesiasticall and ciuill not any thing to purpose for Church or for her Pastors propounded The last out of 2 Thessal 2. 15. was wont to passe currant for vnwritten verities now it commeth in limping for Church and Pastors resolue where it shall stand and then we will ranke it in degree and desert So I would could I tell where to finde them they walke in tenebris I cannot speake with them by cleare day-light In briefe what they affirme I professe I cannot tell I know many things which they affirme in those remembred bookes and passages but what the man here meaneth I can but guesse at so dissolute and at randome are his quotations as if to name and muster vp some Fathers were enough as I can coniecture so come I to them if I misse I must haue better information hereafter Gregorie Nazianz. in Oratione excusat saith somewhat I resolue of and to some purpose but what I certainely doe not know nor yet which Oration is by him intended For I finde not any vnder that title in Billius whom these men follow vnlesse it be one of his Apologies In the former of which two I finde somewhat that may looke that way this In Ecclesijs constituit vt alij pascantur pareant quibus videlicet id conducit ac cum sermone tum opere ad officium diriguntur alij autem ad Ecclesiae perfectionem Pastores ac magistri sunt qui virtute coniunctioneque ac apud Deum familiaritate vulgo sublimiores sunt rationem animae ad corpus aut mentis ad animam obtinentes A thing reasonable profitable and of absolute necessitie for the being of a Church to haue a distinction of Pastors and People some to teach some to be taught to leade to be led to rule to obey a thing established practised and defended in England no otherwise then was in the Primitiue Church and is in the Church of Rome at this day Vnlesse wee can see more shewed vs in Gregory Nazianzene we haue seene but little vnto any purpose yet and other thing then this I know not Tertullian next to be seene against Heretickes prescribeth the rule of Faith so doe we appealeth to the first institution of the Catholicke Church of Christ in his Apostles and to their Doctrine then taught and deliuered and so doe wee aboue all primerily thereto he descendeth vnto Succession so will we Not any prescription insisted vpon by Tertullian but I embrace it and dare appeale vnto it and stand to the award thereof Ex fide personas approbantes non ex personis fidem Is this that which he would haue with Tertul. out of Chapter 21. What Christ reuealed vnto his Apostles to be preached I will prescribe that it ought to be proued no otherwise then by testimony of those Churches which were first founded by the Apostles in their preaching partly by word of mouth and partly afterward by writing If this be the place of Tertullian meant by the Gagger then Currat a Gods name we accept the Condition and ioyne issue and come on with Tertullian as it insueth Si haec ita sunt If this be so it must needs be that all Doctrine which concordeth with those Apostolicall mother and originall Churches is true as being that selfe-same which the Churches receiued from the Apostles they from Christ Christ from God Whatsoeuer other Doctrine is beside this is false against the truth of the Apostles Christ and God Thus he thus we I desire no other Iudge or better triall ioyne issue when you will or when you dare I accept the Condition for any point controuerted betwixt the Church of England and Rome at this day for 500. yeeres after Christ at least Discipulus magistrum Cyprian commeth next to be seene in his 55. Epistle or as your Authors suggest it Lib. 1. Epist 3. In which Epistle I cou'd pitch vpon places moe then one that happily you may entend for they looke this way but that which is purposed I suppose is this in the second sect Actum est de Episcopatus vigore de Ecclesiae gubernandae sublimi ac divinâ potestate The rather because the Texts of Scripture here cited are by Pamelius the Roman Scholiast there applyed though to no purpose For it is the receiued Doctrine of the Church of England that in the office of a Bishop there should be that vigor as he calleth it and that the Calling it selfe is Diuine and an high calling Nor doth any Papist liuing more respect and approue that saying of Saint Cyprian in the same Epistle Sect. 19. then our Church of England doth Non est ad hoc deponenda Catholicae Ecclesiae dignitas c. The honor and the dignity of the Catholick Church is not to be abased so farre nor the vnspotted maiesty of the Flocke of Christ or Priestlike power and authority to be so deiected that men consisting out of the Church should dare professe they will passe censure vpon a Bishop of the Church That Heretickes should presume to censure Christians wounded men iudge the sound lapsed men those that neuer fell guilty persons iudge the Iudge Impious Sacrilegists the Priests This you approue so doe we To what end doe you will vs see Saint Cyprian Or Saint Augustine against Cresconius the Donatist if yet wee could tell where in speciall and what to see is this that which you meane Cap. 33. We vphold the truth of Scripture when we doe that which the vniversall Church commandeth recommended by authority of the Scriptures so farre as that because the Scripture cannot deceiue a man that would not willingly erre in this question obscure should goe and enquire what the Church saith of it If this be the place as in all likelihood it is we subscribe vnto it with all our hearts For in Diuinity Questions Controuersi Iuris there must bee a Iudge to determine that wee say is the Church whether part contending hath Law right that is consent of Scripture vpon his side and we professe with the same Saint August in his 118. Disputare contra id quod vniuersa Ecclesià sentit insolentissimae est insaniae A most in solent franticke foole were he that would dispute against the tenent of the vniuersall Church Sir bring vs to the triall and gagge vs if you can with this resolution of Saint Augustine belye vs not for our opinions against your knowledge But all this while wee haue seene in the Fathers what wee could finde or imagine yet wee neuer saw cleerely till the close Drinke was your arrand but draffe would you haue your plea hath beene for the Church and Pastors your intent was meerely for the Pope for so Saint Anselme Lib. de Incarnat cap. 1. written vnto Pope Vrban saith vnto him Vnto no other is more rightly referred to be corrected whatsoeuer ariseth in the Church against the Catholicke Faith What is this saying of S. Anselme vnto vs in matters of faith
wee must relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and her Pastors There be moe Pastors in the Church then the Pope though he be granted first he is not all There be moe Churches then his Church what hath Pope Vrban one man to doe with Pastors with the Church but that which wee know well enough by Pastors and Church in conclusion you meane the Pope I could interpret Saint Anselme well enough as that if a Controuersie were referred by the Church or an Heresie to be corrected in the Church which touched the case of the Catholicke Church it could not be put ouer more fitly to any one man by the Church representatiue in a Councel then vnto the Pope first Bishop of Christendome of greatest not absolute power amongst Bishops But I know your Saint Anselme well enough This was not his meaning he was partiall post natus not fit to speake in this cause nor amongst the Fathers A great Bishop I grant him He was Archbishop of Canterbury no great Doctor but respectiuely considering the barbarous times in which hee liued farre from being one of the ancient Fathers or their grand-child He liued in the dayes of King Henry the first and was a factionist for Pope Vrban his good Lord and Master So aske my fellow if I be a thiefe your bottle-ale Hostesse where you vse it seemeth to meete in Partridge alley with your gossips is well enough acquainted with these passages and can tell you as much as Saint Anselme could if an Heretick aske her who is Supreame ale-canner on Earth shee will answer no doubt why who but his holinesse In this case I beleeue them both alike as good reason for one as for other Sure yours are no better then those Corkes with which your Hostesse vseth to stop her bottles but agree as you can you and your Hostesse we proceede to the next Proposition III. That Apostolicall traditions and ancient customes of the holy Catholique Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs THis is also contrary to the expresse words of our owne Bibles How wherefore we shal see when we can In the interim thus wee draw on Traditions are of two Sorts in the writings of Antiquity as the word is ambiguous of two significations There are Traditions writteÌ„ improperly so called and there are Traditions vnwritten deliuered from hand to hand The name is sometime applyed to the one and sometime attributed to the other you meane not here Traditions written I know it no more doe we we agree to take it of vnwritten Traditions in opposition vnto Scripture as where Tertullian speaketh in his Book de coronâ militis thus Scripturam nullam invenies Traditio tibi praetenditur euictrix Scripture for this you can finde none the originall came from Tradition Traditions are considered Originally in their Authors Christ the Apostles the Church priuatemen which haue their authority more or lesse answerable to the worth of their Originals Againe they are considered materially in regard of what they treat of what they containe whereof they are of Orders Rights practices opinions in common vse and custome amongst men Traditions instituted by our Sauiour euen in points of beliefe Faith haue Diuine authority as his written word hath Traditions deriued from the Apostles haue equall authority with their Preachings and their writings I approue that processe of the Controuersor The authority of Gods Word is not because it is written but because it commeth from God Traditions of the Church haue such authority as the Church hath all binde and oblige as they were intended and as their extent is For they must be considered not onely from the Author but from the End Some were intended to be Permanent others onely to be transient for a Time onely or else for euer Some vniuersall some onely Partiall for the Catholique or else a priuate Church Such variety and difference is in Traditions which this Hudler confoundeth to deceiue his Nouice with indistinctions Now the question is not whether there be Traditions or haue beene heretofore we doe grant it in euery kinde that either there are or haue beene Traditions of Christ his Apostles the Church priuate men The question is not of what authority they are we grant their authority is from and as the Authors but the question is of their Credit and Extent First whether the pretended Traditions of Christ and his Apostles were indeed so ordained or deriued as they are pretended or rather counterseits and suppositions Proue them true vndoubted and we rise vp vnto them Secondly to what ends they were instituted whether to last and indure euer or for a time whether to supply the defects of Scripture not else sufficient for the end This we denye for it is our Position that the written Word of God without vnwritten Traditions is perfect and absolute and sufficient for the end whereto it was intended To make the man of God absolute in euery good worke Abuse not your selues nor your Proselites here slander not nor belye vs giue vs any Tradition of Christ or his Apostles giue vs good euidence for what you say goe proue it conuincingly to haue come from them by Scripture Fathers consent of Antiquity can you aske any more and we receiue it with both our armes as Gods holy Word and Institution Quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ab Apostolis praecepta benè traduntur quanquam scripta non reperiantur Though I finde it not vpon record in Scripture yet I receiue it as proceeding from the Apostles if the vniuersall Church imbrace it said Saint Augustine and I subscribe vnto it bring vs any such Tradition so accepted so receiued so commended and you shall see wee will reuerence it as much as you or more but if you giue me copper in stead of gold pardon me if I beleeue you not nor receiue it for pay Ecclesiasticall constitutions are moe more certaine of the same authority with the Churches written Lawes which binde generally if made for generall obligation or else particularly if they haue but locall and confined limitation omni modo bind they doe vnto obedience so long in such sort so farre forth as the authors did intend till the same authority disaâ—ow them which gaue vnto them being at the first In the 34. Article to this purpose wee reade of and concerning Ecclesiasticall Traditions It is not necessary that Traditions and ceremonies be in all places one or vtterly like for that at all times they haue beene diuers and may be changed according to diuersities of Countries times and mens manners So that nothing be ordained against Gods word Your Catholique cares be they round or long cannot be offended with this position I thinke Whosoeuer through his priuate iudgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the Traditions and ceremonies of the Church which be not repugnant vnto the word of God and be ordained and approued by common authoritie ought to be rebuked openly that others may
riddles Saint Hier in praefat commen in Eph. Saint Aug. Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith The things c. Saint Gregorie hom 6. in Ezech and many others confesse the same Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Math. 23. 2. 2. 3. * Note here that he doth not say whosoeuer but whatsoeuer giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that not onely the bonds of sinne but as well all other knots and difficulties in matters of saith and manners are to be loosed by Saint Peter and by the Pastors that succeed him in the Church See more to this effect Deut. 17. 8. See Aggee the 2. and 11. 2 Chron. 19. 8. See Fathers which affirme the same S. Gregor Nazian in Oratione excusat Tertul. lib. de praescrip Haeret S. Cyprian Lib. 1. Epi. 3. S. Aug. lib. 1. cont Cres cap. 33. lib. cont epist Fund ca. 5. Whether now wilt thou beleeue so great a Bishop as S. Anselme or some other Host or Hostesse that sell bottle-ale Contrary to express words of their owne Bible 1. 2. 3. Thas Traditions are to be receiued see more Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer beare great Saint Basil See Fathers that affirme the same S. Basil lib. de spirit Sanct. ca. 27. saith that some things we haue from Tradition of the Apostles both which haue force alike vnto godlinesse Some things wee haue from Scripture other things from the Apostles Traditions both which haue like force vnto godlinesse Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer-beare great Saint Basil And consequently cannot erre See more Iohn 16. 13. Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to bee in a tongue not vnderstood by the Assistants Now the names of the twelue Apostles are these the first Simon which is called Peter Therefore c. And what other thing is it for Peter to confirme and strengthen his brethren than to practice and exercise his greatnesse ouer them For he that doth strengthen and confirme is greater and they who are strengthened c. are made thereby inferiors to him who doth strengthen and confirme them See more for proofe hereof c. See Fathers that affirme the same Theoph. in 22. Luk calleth Peter Prince of the Disciples Eusebius in Chron First Bishop of Christians S. Cyril of Hier. Cat. 2. Prince and most excellent of all the Apostles S. Chrys hom 55. in Mat. Pastor and Head of the Church Cont. Crescon 3. 15. Contrary to their own Bible 2 Thes 2. 3. For so Saint Peter should then be Antichrist for he was Pope and the very first of Popes Therefore the great Antichrist shall be a particular man Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible See more Mat. 16. 19. See Fathers that affirme the same Contrary to the expresse words of your owne Bible Therefore sinnes may be confessed vnto man See the Fathers who affirme the same Tertul. lib. ad Mart. ca. 1. Pope Vrban the second graunted a plenary Indulgence to such as would goe to the Holy-Wars An. Christi 160. Hence hath the ground of Indulgences beene alwayes taken but more principally from the super abundant merit of Iesus Christ Whence it appeareth that man by assistance of Gods grace may doe some things counselled And these we call workes of supererogation See one Father for the same in stead of many I could produce See more Eccles 15. 14. Is it not then plaine wilfulnesse to denye Freewill See Fathers that affirme the same S. Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 7. Contrary to express words of their owne Bible Briefly if the Commandements were impossible they could binde no man For it is not to bee conceiued how one should sinne in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid It is not to be conceiued how one should sin in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid Lastly Saint Basill who saith it is an impious thing to say that the commandements of God are impossible See more 1 Cor. 9. c. See Fathers that affirme the same S. Ambrose de Apolog. Dauid ca. 6. S. Hier. lib. 3. cont Pelag. S. Aug. de spirit lit cap. vlt. 1. 2. 3. Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible See more Ose 13. 9 c. See Fathers that affirm the same S. Aug. lib. 1. ciuit Tert. de Orat cap. 8. S. Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist 2. S. Ambrose Lib. 2. de Cain et Abel will nâ—t that we refer vnto God the preuarication of Adam or treason of Iudas though hee knew the sin before it was committed Contrary to their owne Bible Therefore S. Paul himself was not assured infallibly A point of doctrine so improbable that we will not labour to ouerthrowe it by any further proof of Fathers Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible Mat. 18. 10 Therefore they had their Angell-keeper This very passage Saint Cyril of Alexandria Lib. 4. con Iulian. applieth to our Angel-keeper See more Acts 12. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 10. Contrary to expresse words in your owne Bibles Zach. 1. 9 10 11. Now what I pray you is a praier if this be not Contrary to their owne Bible That this was spoken to a true Angell and not to Christ Basil l. 3. c. Eunomium S. Chrys ho. 7. in laud. S. Pauli and vpon 1. of Col. and S. Hier. vpon 66 of Esay Which beeing so who for shame can say He prayed not vnto him See Fathers that affirme what hath beene said touching Angels For some such my self haue met with Therefore Saints deceased haue appearea to some on earth At Saint August witnesseth Lib. de cura mortis cap. 14. Nor can any be so senslesse as to say they pray for them selues Contrary to their owne Bible If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. Where note that Theodoret paraphrasing vpon Baruch interpreteth this very place as Catholiques doo Now is the Sunne more cleare than that Saints pray for vs Iob 1. 5. 〈◊〉 S. August himself expounds this very place as Catholiques doo in his Annot. vpon Iob. If it had not been the common custome in the time of Iob to inuocate the Saints deceased it had bin friuâ—lous for Eliphas to haue asked Iob to which of the Saints he wou'd t 〈…〉 See more Contrarie to expresse words of their owne Bibles In second of Kings but is the 4 by the account of Catholiques 13. 21. S. Chrysost To. 5. cont Gentil quòd Christus sit Deus in an whole Booke proues heerby and by the like vertue of other Saints that Christ their Lord and Master is God whose seruants napkins and shadows could do such wonders Are they not therefore fooles and blind that keepe such a â—ooting at Holy-bread Hooker Poor Protestant whither now is thy figure fled See Fathers that affirm the same S. Ignat. in his Epist ad Smyr Iustin Mar. Apol. 2. ad Antoninum Now say the truth and shame the Diuell are not they sick in their wits which will oppose such plaine Scriptures Deuter. 23. 22. Psal 66. 13. Psal 19. 11. 1. Tim. Math. 5. 12. Ier. 35. 5. Therefore it is grounded c. Contrary to their owne Bibles These freed Captiues cannot bee the soules of the Saued which no man in his right wits can call Captiues nor of the damned for so the diuels should be brought again into heauen Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Acts 2. 27. Which very words Saint August applieth to the paint of Purgatory and addeth Who but an Infidel will deny Christ to haue descended into hell Ep. 99. ad Euodium Saint Ambrose Ser. 20 in Psal 118. Saint Hierome vpon 4 of Amos Saint August vpon the 37 Psal Saint Gregory lib. 4. Dial. explicate this very place of Purgatory Heb. 9. 1. 5. Lo Saint Paul calleth the pictures of the Cherubins which Salomon made an Ordinance of diuine Seruice which Protestants call the making of Idols who now shall we beleeue whether S. Paul or a Protestant When painting and grauing of 〈◊〉 tures is so farre from beeing Idolatry that it is prooued to be a Science diuinely infused by God himself Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible and he said Draw not nigh hither c. Lo how cleer a place is produced heer against Protestants where an insensible â—reature without reason was commanded by God himselfe to be honored Now the principal reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it which as S. Ierom saith the lewes did worship in his Ep. ad Marcellan Num. 21. 8. Hence are euidently prooued diuers things against Protestants c. See Fathers that affirme the same Saint Ambrose Ser. 1. in Psal 118. Where first our Lord hauing taught his owne Disciples that excellent Prayer of all praiers which hee would haue them to offer to him the Pater noster or our Lords Praier hee afterwards in many other places willeth them to pray alwaies as Luke 18. 1. The Angels in the Prophet Esay Esay 6. and the beasts in the Apoc. Apo. 4. which rest neither dâ—y nor night do thrice repeat c.
there is none So that the Holy ghost is made to speake plaine non-sense to fit a turne for a Catholique cause This may stand and yet the Protestants assersion be not infeebled He expounded vnto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himselfe For they doe not deny but that some things are hard That other cannot stand For it implieth that all things are hard So we haue obseruable a pretty niggling tricke of a false knaue a small word In left out to marre all For with In the text is for this and no more Some things in Scripture needed exposition and therefore were hard But without In though there be no Sense but what simple Proselyte attendeth to that the implication is All Scriptures need Interpretation and so are all hard which the good Catholique beleeueth not himselfe dareth not auouch yet faine would haue his nouice take it so to traduce the tenent of the Protestants that some Scriptures are open and easie Thus in the very in-steppe of his stolen pamphlet he belyeth the Protestant for his opinion abuseth the Scripture to bolster his Forgery and yet for all that fighteth onely with his owne fancy as dogges by moone-light barke at their owne shadowes To your question then inferred vpon the premises I answere first As easie to be vnderstood of the vnlearned now as of them then who were none of the Learned ones at that time and had incident impediments at that time Secondly scriptures hard then vnto them may be and are easie now without any such Interpretation For one Day teacheth another and especially in Predictions as these all were that is after easie which at first was hard If now they be not easie there is no explicite faith implicite faith must saue all Sir Gagger whosoeuer you are know that Scripture is not all of one height depth or alloy Some was hard that now is easie Some easie now and euer Some yet hard but not for euer To be vnderstood but not in the way only in visione faciei when wee shall see face to face and know God as we are knowne and some points at least explicitely not now to bee vnderstood nor yet then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it was a secret a mystery saith Basil of Seleucia at the beginning shall neuer cease to be a mystery In some point or other the worke of our Redemption in Christ he meaneth See more who list they shall see nothing to purpose No Scripture saith Saint Peter is of priuate motion or Interpretation as you will Ergo what All Scripture is hard Teach me this Consequence and I will thanke you for my New-Logicke This I doe see where the Scripture is hard and needeth interpretation there that Spirit which dictated it at first must direct in the vnderstanding it at last For man is permitted to expound himselfe and best can giue his owne meaning So this Text is not to proue that Scripture is hard but to proue that in Case there be a Doubt we are not to addresse vnto priuate Fancies or peculiar opinions but to the Direction of Gods Spirit and that in the Church I subscribe Math. 13. 11. 36. it is remembred that Christ taught the People in Parables Well what if he did Why a Parable is a darke kinde of speech so that there is obscurity in the Scriptures I answer No man denyeth but there is obscurity No man denieth but Parables are obscure Some not all In some things not in all Those Parables were obscure admit it that are remembred there but they are not all the Parables that are in Scripture Nor are Parables the hundreth part of Scripture and many of them are of easie vnderstanding and many are expounded where proposed and when vnderstood best remembred most beneficiall to the Hearer Luke 24. 45. Then opened hee their vnderstandings that they might vnderstand the Scripture which act of our Sauiour vnto and vpon his Disciples at that time slow of heart may rather excite vnto then detar from the Reading of the Scriptures For that which hee did to them personally he will doe vnto all mediately and doth it vnto the simplest actually of those that are interessed in him though but by a generall tye For the poorest member of the Church doth now vnderstand that which he taught them that he was the Messiah the Promised seede according vnto Prophecies and Predictions of old then hard now easie 1 Cor. 12. 8. Saint Paul speaking of diuersity of guifts saith To one is giuen by the spirit the word of wisdome to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit which words are as much against vnderstanding Scriptures hard by interpretation as Scriptures easie with interpretation For those that haue it haue it by guift immediate by God without helpe or instruction Those that haue it not by warrant of this place and goe no further cannot haue it at all because these things remembred were all of Infusion of extraordinary indowment and so singular and peculiar Againe admit it in common course yet it is rather a warrant for facility of Scripture because there are designed Expositors or if for difficulty because expositors are needfull yet this difficulty is but in some to some not vniuersall of which we must be vnderstood and of no other if wee be rightly taken Luke 18. 34. The Disciples vnderstood none of those things Doth it follow they vnderstood not any thing in the Law or Prophets which were the Scriptures of those times If you cannot read a letter in Cipher can you not read a plaine letter in Italique hand Those things beside that they were not then written and so no part of Scripture and so not to purpose were particular and personall and not performed Now they are performed now they are in Scripture now easie to be vnderstood of all without Expositors the Sufferings of our Sauiour at Ierusalem To them then they were hidden are they now to you Catholikes Doe you not know Christ suffered at Ierusalem If you doe not I grant Scripture is hard and hidden but hidden vnto those that perish onely because they will hud-winke themselues and not see Not a Lixa Calo or Agaso not a shepheard or muleter but doth or else may know this now which then was a secret not knowen vnto many many particulars not vnto the blessed Virgin her selfe such difference there is in things wrought by time so little wisdome to take things at all times alike and to conclude alike Indeed the same that is the thing in question as little as those Texts doe and to as little purpose as those texts doe Irenaeus Lib. 2. 47. Hauing insisted vpon and instanced in obscurity in Gods word in Nature he proceedeth vnto Gods word in Scripture thus Si ergo in rebus creaturae quaedam quidem eorum adiacent Deo quaedam autem in nostram venerunt scientiam quid mali est si et eorum quae in scripturis requiruntur vniuersis
the Roman Church For Saint Gregory vpon the 6. of Ezechiel said If the vnderstanding of holy scripture were playne to all men it would come in time to bee of no reckoning Where hee giueth a reason of that obscurity that is in it Who yet vpon the 6. of Iob more atfull interpreteth his owne meaning thus Sacra scriptura cibus est in locis obscurioribus quia quasi exponendo frangitur et mandendo glutitur Potus vero est in locis apertioribus quià ita sorbetur sicut invenitur The holy Scripture is Meate in the more obscure places because in the expounding thereof it is broken as it were and in chewing swallowed Drinke it is in the more perspicuous places because it is as easily swallowed downe as it is found Thus the doctrine and beliefe of the Roman Church was sometime Scripture in some places is hard in some places easie Hath that Church now forsaken her former faith if not we differ not for we maintaine the easinesse of holy Scripture no otherwise then Saint Gregory the Pope did This Goose may fit the Gagge for his Ganders mouth the Gospell will soone enough be rid of it II. That in matters of faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word I Know no such tenent exclusiuely I know no such Assertion negatiuely the Church of England hath no such faith as this You set vp a Shawfoule for a marke and shoot your bolt at it your selfe alone In our 11. Article put on your spectacles and see if you can reade it we professe The Church hath authority in controuersies of Faith The written word of God is the Rule of Faith with vs. And hath beene so with all our Fathers of old Vnto the Law and vnto the Prophets was a direction of a perpetuall Morallity and is continued in that of our Sauiour Ioh. 5. Search the Scriptures for in them you hope to haue eternall life A rule absolute in it selfe a rule most sufficient vnto vs for that end entended To make the man of God perfect in euery good worke Sufficiunt sanctae et diuinitus inspiratae scripturae saith Athanasius ad omnem institutionem veritatis Truth is of two sorts amongst men manifest and confessed truth or more obscure and inuolued truth In his quae aperte posita sunt in scripturis inveniâ—ntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque viuendi spem scilicet charitatem Plainely deliuered in Scripture are all those poynts which belong vnto Faith and manners Hope and Charity to wit And accordingly I doe know no obscurity vpon these I know none of these controuerted inter partes the Articles of our Creede are confessed on both sides and held plaine enough The controuerted poynts are of a larger and an inferiour alloy of them a man may be ignorant without any danger of his soule at all A man may resolue or oppose this way or that way without perill of perishing for euer Now if a question be moued iuris controuersi in controuerted matters who shall decide and settle the doubt you say The Church and so say I nay so say we You say wee say the Scriptures but without the Church that is each priuate mans opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures euen against the Church No such thing Sir you mistake vs. We say the Church must doe it explaining declaring resoluing the Scriptures as the direction is from God himselfe to purpose Deut. 17. 8. and as your Texts and Fathers doe pretend it and no otherwise And yet the Scripture may well be called iudge As the Law determineth Controuersies betwixt man and man In plaine cases iuris positiui no deciding Iudge or legall proceeding shall neede But such as are iuris ambigui controuersi must be determined by the Court by the Iudge according vnto Law So is it in Scripture according to the Protestants opinion In points of Faith they disclaime not the iudgement of the Church nor yet appeale to Scripture alone vnderstood by themselues without a iudge but referre it vnto the Church And they haue reason for it enough seeing Gods Word and the ancient practise of the Catholike Church that is both Law and Iudge are both for them In the name of the Church of England I will be tried thereby and maintaine it against all Papists liuing Take one for all Cyril of Hierusalem in his fourth Catechisme saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In any poynt concerning the diuine and holy mysteries of our Faith not any the least thing must be tendred without warrant of diuine Scripture And he addeth Belieue mee not that speake and deliuer these things vnto you vnlesse for proofe of them I doe bring plaine and euident demonstration out of diuine Writ Was this man a Protestant or a Papist Those Bibles he had then which we haue now and it seemeth that addressing his owne beliefe and doctrine accordingly varied not in iudgement any whit from vs who make Scripture the rule of our beliefe And in doubtfull poynts that require determination appeale vnto the Catholique Church for iudgement in that Rule This is not contrary to any deduction from much lesse to the expresse words of our owne Bible Matt. 23. 2. The Scribes Pharises sit in Moses Chaire all therfore whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe Therefore c. Doe you finde eyther Faith or Iudgement Pastors or Church expresly named in this text Looke once more and looke back vpon your vndertaking Their refutation by expresse words of their owne bible For words expresse you faile vndertaking more than you can performe an ordinary tricke of Catholike Braggadochioes Let vs see if Consequents will hold the tewghing any better Those that answere the Church and her Pastors in your Thesis are the Scribes Pharises in your proofe who whole and some head and taile be Doctors and Pastors of the Church with you But of the Church of Rome it must be supposed for wee disclaime any Conformation at all with them And doe you suppose that our Sauiour approued them so well as that hee would haue had the Iewes in matters of Faith to relye vpon them and their decisions as Pastors of the Church in points of Faith If this were his meaning what meant he then to giue warning elsewhere Take heede of the leauen of the Pharises that is as the holy Ghost expoundeth it Of their doctrine If the question had bin put Art thou the Christ would he haue sent them vnto the Scribes or Pharises for resolution or aduised the people to belieue on them we finde it not practised the contrary we doe What then is this text in consequence vnto the poynt Surely hee meant no more but this and in that hee will declare himselfe a Protestant Whatsoeuer they bid you obserue out of Moses obserue that is so long as they teach but Scripture they must he heard if there they faile
then heare them not Verba legis proferendo in the opinion of Saint Augustine so long as they speake Law This is not our Heresie but Catholique Doctrine De legis ac Mosis doctrinâ loquitur perindè enim est acsi dicat Omnia quae Lex Moyses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruate saith Maldonate no friend nor fauourer of Protestants And after him Barradas another Iesuite in this resolution a very Protestant Hoc est saith he omnia quae legi Dei mandatis non repugnāt Ergo bound in the text with this restriction as you must and it is a plaine Gagge to the Gospel Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and hee that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me Therfore c. You know not what you say All this we constantly beleeue But first I answere this is a text indeede to purpose to vindicate authority to the Church and her Pastors but not expressely which is your vndertaking by necessary consequence and indenied it is but you haue tied your selfe foole as you were vnto expresse words and expresse words are not here extant Secondly perhaps it is not so pat as you imagine because the men intended there and then were of another making fashion and account than euer were any since or before and therefore their priuiledges more peculiar of greater extent insomuch as that all were not to be heard so respectiuely as they were they without Scripture or allegation of Scripture hauing mission immediate from the Sonne himselfe which none euer had but they But thirdly I answere take it with Saint Cyprian Epist 96. and others in a larger extent ad omnes praepositos qui Apostolis vicariâ ordinatione succedunt vnto the Gouernours in the Church who succeede the Apostles in the Churches gouernement by imposition of hands and ordination and goe and answere your selfe out of Saint Bernard thus Be the commandement tendred by God or man as Gods agent it is to be receiued with like reuerence Vbi tamen Deo contraria non praecipit homo As farre as man doth not gain-say the will and commandement of the most high A flat Protestant in his assertion and vpon reason For a Nuntio must goe to his Commission Matth. 16. 19. I will giue vnto thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen whatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen Which text hath no such mention of relying vpon Church or Pastors in matters of faith expressed Nor hitherto perhaps any such meaning Your Compeeres were wont to cry vs downe with this text For Saint Peters iurisdiction ouer all and the Popes vniuersall power in claue potestatis You now waue that power it seemeth and cast aside that key and lay hold vpon that other key of knowledge Shall wee belieue your Puniship or them This cannot be good Catholique vnitie in so fundamentall a poynt of your Faith except for neere alliance betwixt Saint Peter and his Spouse the Church whatsouer is remembred of the one must be likewise true of the other But out with your Table-bookes you that haue them amongst you and Note the man will giue you something worth the noting that is our Sauiour doth not say whomsoeuer but whatsoeuer We take it and note it and meane to make good vse of it inferring thereupon through your owne confession that therefore St. Peter by Christs commission must in case of binding and loosing and executing the power of the Keyes which whether it be all one with binding and losing you are not agreed amongst your selues let whomsoeuer alone for euer and betake himselfe vnto whatsoeuer that is not meddle any more with Kings and Princes with cantoning of their Kingdomes and estates but content himselfe with whatsoeuer matters of fact inferiour matters of Faith and the like decisions at least with Causes and Persons within his owne Verge indeede Causes that is knots and difficulties for Persons are none of that combination So to shake hands with your memorable obseruation Therefore in matters of faith euen by their owne Bible wee must not relye vpon the written word onely but vpon whatsoeuer Saint Peter shall tie or vntie which we in this case are contented to doe and to say with that Councell of which he was a part you say President visum est spiritui sancto nobis the decision of the Catholique Church wee receiue as the dictate of the holy Spirit but be you sure it is the iudgment of the Church for you are good Proficients in equiuocation and present vs the Church vpon no better termes then if you should tender vs a man of straw for a perfect man or a shadow for a substance Indeede to this effect that is to as little purpose as that which went before In cases of controuersies and of doubts in matters of fact or ciuill cognisance which could not be determined by ordinary course of Law in the seuerall Counties as it were or Places of iudicature the Parties plaintife and defendants were to referre it to the Leuits Priests and Iudge in these daies that is to the Church and to the Pope you dreame and let your dreame goe once for truth and they must heare it determine it definitiuely It was capitall to refuse or to appeale Good but yet this commeth not home for they must determine it according vnto Law to which supreamest decision both concurre the Rule of right and determiner of right according to that rule In our construction to our present question the iudgement of the Church according vnto Scripture the selfe-same that the Protestant maintaineth In this text I graunt more is to be seene then in all the rest viz. when the word of the Lord came vnto Agge the Prophet Which thing how it sorteth with the present position I cannot tell speake those that can But the word that then came vnto him was this in the 12. verse Aske the Priests concerning the Lawe And the Priests answered according vnto Law thus and thus And this is resoluing of a doubt by the Priests but the doubt resolued according vnto Law so the written word is relyed vpon Not I my selfe the word onely Quis enim respondet Did euer any man deny that the Church and her Pastors are not to be heard speaking out of or else according vnto Scriptures Shew this and take it else Nihil ad rhombum That of 2 Chron. 19. 8. is all one with Deuter. 17. 8. an exemplification of that rule a practice according vnto that direction there somewhat more For hereby it appeareth that the Precept was not for Tell the Church and heare her Pastors but goe take the ordinary course appointed the iudgement of a standing court mixt of Clergie and of the Laitie as it were our court of high Commission or indeede the Starre-chamber consisting of both robes
shall not depart is Gods promise Mans promise reciprocall is I will not depart from them If I depart that is if man faile They may and shall depart God is then free Now this supposed what assurance is there for my words shall not depart c So your first Text is mistaken peraduenture in the meaning but without peraduenture in the allegation It is Esay 5â— 21. not as you tender it from your aduisers 49. 21. And lastly it is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Iewes in particular conuerted vnto Christ as it seemeth by Saint Paul Rom. 11. 26. and not of the Church of the Christians already conuerted and so you misapply as well as mistake But more ridiculously in your second Text Iohn 14. 16. For haue you read or heard that euer any Protestant maintained That the holy Ghost can erre I suppose not I beleeue you are not so much past shame to say so and yet your conclusion is so The spirit of truth cannot erre For hauing recited the Text of the Gospell your illation is Therefore the spirit of truth hath aboade for euer and shall abide for euer with the Church and consequently cannot erre What Sir cannot erre To my vnderstanding The Spirit of Truth cannot erre can you vnderstand it otherwise But let your barbarismes goe by to the point I answer first you faile and that confessedly in your vndertakings It is but consequently the Church cannot erre therefore confessed not expresly Secondly I answer out of the Text it selfe This promise is for comfort not instruction The Comforter shall abide for euer for Christ there spake of affliction which should ensue Thirdly were it punctually for direction we might reioyne It was a temporary promise a personall priuiledge to the Apostles you thought wee would say so belike supposing wee had no other shift silly men like your selfe therefore you come in with by way of preuention But the Apostles themselues could not abide for euer poore foole that knowest not there is duplex aeternum frequent in Scripture Gods euer and mans euer That for euerlasting as God is This for the terme of his being so for euer is thus no more then while you are all the dayes of your life But we seeke no aduantage we will not take it we grant Gods Spirit eternally assistant to the Catholique Church then represented in the Apostles and therefore we admit that you belye vs in your Proposition The Church can erre to be vnderstood of the Catholique Church as is expressed The third Text in order Esay 35. 8. is so farre from expressing the not erring of the Church that it is a question though such a Nouice as you know it not whether it be to be taken of the Church at all Hierome in his Comments expoundeth it of Christ who saith of himselfe Iohn 14. I am the way the truth the life An high way shall be there and a way and it shall be called the way of holinesse the vncleane shall not passe ouer it but it shall be for those The way faring men though fooles shall not erre therein Who told you that this way was the Church why not the Scripture which is also a way and called a way as to my remembrance the Church is not Ibi erit semita via mundissima quae sancta vocabitur c. There shall be a path saith Hierome and a most cleane way which shall be called Holy and which saith of himselfe I am the way by which way the polluted cannot passe where also we reade it spoken in the Psalme Blessed are the vndefiled in the way And this way that is our God shall be vnto vs so direct so plaine so open and champion that no wandring shall be there Fooles and silly men may walke therein vnto whom in the Prouerbs wisdome speaketh thus If there be any little ones let them come vnto me and shee hath spoken vnto the Fooles Come you and eate of my bread Thus Hierome vpon the place Tertullian in 4. against Marcion is indifferent for Christ the head of the Church or Faith in Christ the life of the Church Your Worship Sir Gagger out of your authoritie cast it meerely vpon the Church Satis pro Imperio if you can out-beare it Howsoeuer it is not expresse as it should be Not to purpose if it were expresse our question is not whether fooles can erre but whether the Church can erre The Church hath often beene compared to a Ship and now at last by you made a Ship of Fooles Content so you be Pilot in that Ship Sir Foole. Once at length you rightly bid vs goe see more For the Text of Iohn 16. 13. is more expresse than all the former He shall leade you into all truth But what if this text concerne not truth vpon Earth but Truth in Heauen What becommeth then of your Not erring Augustine and Bede encline that way What if it be personall vnto the Apostles alone not to the Church or their successours Hee will shew you the things to come and I haue many things to say vnto you but you cannot beare them now these such like passages doe more than seeme to conclude it vnto them What if he meant but All things that were necessary and conuenient for them to know so Theophylact Euthymius and others In this sort the Church is eternally directed so the Church directed cannot erre Matth. 18. 17. It is commaunded by authoritie Tell the Church and heare the Church No good proofe the Church cannot erre For the Scribes and Pharises were to be heard and obeyed yet had no assurance of infallibility Kings and Princes are to be obeyed yet haue they fallen into great enormities Ephes 5. 27. the Church is said to be glorious without spot or wrinckle or blame which is to be vnderstood de toâ—o integrato of the parts in Heauen and earth Of the time to come rather than present Without blame yet not without wrinckle euen here for error may be where blame is none Esay 9. 7. the Kingdome of Christ is to be established with iudgement and with iustice for euer and yet I know no such priuiledge annexed to iudgement or iustice of infallibility No more then Ezech. 37. 26. to a Couenant of peace an Euerlasting couenant to multiplying of them or placing Gods Sanctuary amongst them for euer Luk. 22. 32. and Matth. 23. 3. What correspondency haue they one with another not to speake of reference vnto the poynt In the former Peters faith was prayed for that it might not faile and yet Peter denied Christ Iesus If Peter were not the Church what maketh this Text amongst the rabbâ—e If Peter were the Church may erre as Peter fayled though not eternally one or other In the latter the Pharises must be heard And therefore will you say they erred not If they erred as doubtlesse they did then to what purpose are they pretended for not erring of the Church Much good may the
Pharises doe your Church 1 Pet. 2. 9. The Church is styled a chosen generation a royall Priesthood an holy nation a peculiar people glorious titles but nothing to this They cannot erre Iohn 17. 17. Gods word is truth I graunt But is Gods Word euer in the mouth of man The Apostles were sanctified and that in Gods truth according vnto Christs Prayer Yet after this Prayer Peter went not right when Saint Paul reproued him he fell and that foulely in denying Christ That which is sanctified is accepted not euer so sanctified as without spot As for 1 Cor. 11. 25. if the Institution or rather Commemoration of the institution of the holy Communion be a proofe sufficient that the Church cannot erre wee yeeld the cause if nothing to purpose what meant this idle pate to range it heere What the man would say in Psalm 101. 23. 20. or whether hee would send vs after mistaking there I cannot tell and till then I cannot answere For not so much as neere thereabout is ought to purpose of not erring Ephes 2. 20. Wee reade that they were built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets And what then Could they not erre Dare you say so They could for they haue and are shaken off from that foundation but so long as they stood on fast they erred not holding one Faith one Lord one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. which if you and we doe at this day by your owne argument auoid it if you can we erre not As for one heart and one soule of the belieuers Act. 4. 32. it is in reference of loue one to another not in vnity of Doctrine all with one another And yet there were differences in that vnion for example sake inter Paul and Barnabas and might be disproportion in their Doctrine as dissimilitude in the habitude and condition of those sheepe in one sheepe-fold vnder one Shepheard and yet all heare the Shepheards voyce Iohn 10. 16. and hee that will not heare some of those Sheepe Luc. 10. 16. be taxed for not regarding the Shepheard when as yet for all that some of those Sheepe be gone astray To conclude The Church cannot erre neither collectiue nor representatiue Thus your Masters distinguish the termes of this question that goe workman-like and not like you clutteringly to worke So they so wee In the largest extent not erre at all Secondly not erre in poynts of Faith For in matters of fact they confesse errour Faith is fundamentall or accessory There none is here error may accrew Fathers to be seene you afford vs none Not because there are none but because your reading could supply none Who take vp all vpon retaile and credit hauing so small store at home The Church cannot erre is most true and the Church may erre is as true each part considered as it ought V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible IT may be some priuate opinions haue runne vpon inuifibility of the Church which are no doctrinall decisions nor to be imputed vnto the resolued Doctrine of the Protestants that are of another minde Nunquam est quod nusquam videtur That which cannot be seene if it be seeable is no where at all nor in being For as Saint Augustine well said Quo modo confidimus ex diuinis liter is accepisse nos Christum manifestum si non accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam How is it possible wee should hope to haue Christ manifest in Scripture except wee haue likewise the Church manifest Therefore on all hands it is resolued the Church hath euer beene visible since there was a Church In England especially how can this fellow impute inuisibility to vs who claime and proue a succession and therefore needes a visibilitie from the time of the Apostles If any doe thinke otherwise or cannot doe this we vndertake no patronage at all of them The Church is a City seated on a Hill which is naturally visible though in a fogge or mist not discerned There euer was and will be a Church vnto whom complaints may be made though the Church doth not euer heare complaints Those that haue fell vpon an inuisibility may perhaps be tollerated if well interpreted and vnderstood For euen the visible Church in her more noble parts may be said to be inuisible First the Saints triumphant and now regnant with Christ are parts of the Church in largest extent Who being in Heauen are vnknowne their persons proprieties and indowments The Saints militant her more excellent parts on Earth according to her more royall indowments the Elect according vnto purpose of Grace are knowne onely vnto God alone the searcher of secrets and decipherer of thoughts Such as be secret occultò intus are there not visible vnto man In this sence in regard of these parts the Church is and is esteemed inuisible and so held euen of the Papists themselues Otherwise then so wee doe not speake of inuisibility So that the man must fall foule with his owne part or be at warre with his owne wits Moderate men on both sides confesse this controuersie may cease Et quamuis praesens haec Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum disciplinae integritate adde etiam in doctrinae sinceritate ab antiquâ illâ vnde orta deriuata est discesserit tamen eodem fundamento doctrinae sacramentorum à Deo institutorum firma semper constitit communionem cum antiquâ illâ indubitatâ Christi Ecclesiâ agnoscit colit Quare alia diuersa ab illâ esse non potest tametsi multis in rebus dissimulis sit Manet enim Christi Ecclesia sponsa quamuis multis erroribus vitijs sponsum suum irritauerit quamdiu à Christo suo sponso non repudietur tametsi multis fâ—agellis ab ipso castigetur As for our Gagger hee is interessed happely otherwise In standeth him in hand to vphold and foment a faction lest for insufficiency otherwise hee turne Host and sell Bottle-Ale That mustie obiection as hee calleth it of Elias may doe him some pleasure at that time I adde no more touching this proposition because it is but lost labour VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publique seruice of the Church to be in a tongue not vnderstood of all the Assistants NO doubt Contrary to our owne Bibles in such sort that if the Protestants be not gagged now their mouthes are wider than Gargantuaes and their lips somewhat like to Germans that were nine mile asunder Certes neuer so foyled by texts of Scripture since Luther went out to this day Therefore expedite tabulas Chrysippei sophi For heere you haue a singular piece of worke indeede The Church of England directed not onely by the light of Israel the Word of God but also perswaded by common sense and reason hath and hath had her Seruice the publique prayers and Liturgie of the Church in a knowne tongue vnderstood of all that are present there ordinarily This is contrary to their
performe what seruice in his course was determined and assigned by Lot It fell to Zachary to burne Incense as to others to offer Sacrifice Now the Temple of Ierusalem had diuers diuisions as wee haue in our Churches Isles Chauncels Reuestries These were seuered by Vayles Trauerses or Walles The first was the Sanctuary or most holy Place No People or Priest went in thither at all but onely one once a yeere and no oftner then once that one day the high Priest and no other man The second was called the holy Place the Altar of Incense stood there whereat the Priests offered Incense vnto God in their Courses as Zachary here did and nothing else neither reading the Law nor expounding of it nor teaching the People nor praying with them nor saying any deuotions for them it was no Custome or part of Seruice there A third diuision was atrium sacerdotum the body of the Church into which none came but onely Priests and they to offer Sacrifice onely The People came not so high but into a fourth Court atrium populi or mundorum in which they were praying at that present So betwixt the place in which Zachary offered Incense which was seuered by a vayle and that place in which the People prayed there was some distance what maruell if the People could not heare him But as is touched they needed not for he was not to read expound or say any part of Seruice within but onely to burne Incense and no more There were that taught them beside they did it in the place for the purpose in the Peoples Court and in that tongue which the People vnderstood So our Sauiour taught in the Synagogues and in the Temple being vnderstood and Moses was read in the same forme and Language that euery one vnderstood If it had beene added that the People were praying in Latin Greeke or in some other exoticke Language this Tale-teller had noted somewhat to purpose This which he saith and noteth iâ— as much to purpose as mother Bumly hitting a Hen in the forehead Leuit. 16. 17. And there shall be no man in the Tabernacle of the Congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place vntill hee conuent and haue made an atonement for himselfe for his Houshold and for all the Congregation of Israel Therefore Conclude Aron must goe in alone For of Aron and his Successors is this spoken When he goeth he must goe alone Now what is this to purpose Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture that the publike seruice of the Church should be in an vnknowne tongue A poke full a plummes no foote nor foote-steps of such an inference at least let vs haue it with this exception vnlesse at one time onely of the yeere for onely once what the high Priest hither But to purpose This Text is to no purpose For there must be Assistants where the Seruice is in an vnknowen tongue and here Assistants are shut out of doores It is precise There shall be no man in the Tabernacle when he goeth in If no man there no seer no hearer present then what neede we talke of tongues either vnderstood or not vnderstood Secondly the Textis to no purpose For it speaketh but of a peece of Iewish seruice and of such a peece as was performed by hands onely without lippes or tongue and then it was priuate betwixt God and the Priest Priests nor People were Agents or Assistants at it Let your morrow Massmungers when they masse it alone vse Iaponian or Mexico Language if they list and when they make priuate intercession vnto God speake in any of the Dialects that were at Babel but in the publique Seruice of the Church Piety and Practice reason and Religion require a tongue that is vnderstood of the Assistants that they may say Amen to what is spoken It is a tricke of vanity an idle flourish What shall I neede to produce authorities of Fathers when the practice of the Christian World for many hundred yeeres together is contrary vnto Protestants A very strange practice of which there is no Constat let but one Father say so and I yeeld the bucklers Inopem te copia fecit Such plenty you haue as hath made you poore If you name me one Father that thought so or wrote so I will goe with you to Masse to morrow and acknowledge Pope Vrban for absolute Monarch directly ouer all the Earth I can but laugh at your insolent and impudent folly that blush not to write What neede I produce authority of Fathers I say againe doe name me but one that squinteth that way nedum that saith it positiuely That the seruice of the Church hath beene or may be in a tongue vnknowne and haue with you to Masse next morrow VII That Saint Peter was not first or chiefe amongst the Apostles and that none was greater or lesser amongst the twelue First or chiefe how ignorantly spoken as if two words of one signification First and Chiefe are not euer of equall extent Ruben was the first but Iuda chiefe First and Chiefe in some things are not euer so in all Peter was first but Iohn chiefe in respect of Christs speciall and peculiar affection to him aboue the rest of the Apostles It is graunted Peter was first called to be an Apostle though not first to be a Disciple In rancke and reckoning wee graunt him first As in your first Text of Matth. 10. 2. No Protestant liuing will deny this nor fall so foule with their owne Bible perswade not your selfe they will doe so But this precedency will neither serue your turne nor content you Another chiefedome must be cast vpon which you collect by sequell for you haue it not expresse out of Luke 22. 32. and 26. and yet at last you fleete backe to his first-ship in place Peter is euer named first Thus you are not resolued what to haue and how can your Proselites tell in what to trust you but that you leade them hoodwinked by the nose Luke 22. 26. The words is greatest is chiefe doe euidently shew that among the twelue one was indeede ter than another and so accounted by Christ himselfe Proue that by Christ himselfe Those words insisted on doe not proue it for they may be an Irony or a Concession Admit there be greater or lesser amongst you yet hee that is greatest let him be thus or thus He that thinketh so highly of himselfe yet let him doe thus But let it be euident and graunted that one was greater than another amongst them this greatnesse yet is farre short of that transcendent greatnesse giuen to Saint Peter Let Saint Peter be the man inuested with that greatnesse yet quousque What bounds and limitation had it since the greatest greatnesse vnder Sunne is not without some circumscription It is not questioned whether Saint Peter were great whether the greatest among those great ones Wee graunt it but the controuersie is about the extent and
ciuill state of men but which doe also touch Religion and Piety Thus he so we in our Profession ouer all persons in all causes Not In all Causes alone and singular as you traduce vs. Hoc posito Now see wee your Texts of Scripture contrary to this in our owne Bibles 1 Tim. 2. 11. Let the woman learne in silence with all subiection Therefore a woman heire or otherwise cannot be Gouernour in her Realmes Doe you thinke that the Lady Infanta no Protestant Princesse will be so confinde because shee may not say Masse nor speake in the Congregation therefore as Dutchesse of Burgundy or Countesse of Flaunders may shee not meddle with the State Marke your owne words But I suffer not a woman to teach nor to vsurpe authority ouer the man Therefore shee cannot be supreame Gouernesse Let Catholicke Ladies looke to this Such Fellowes if they had their due would haue their mouthes gag'd with an halter I their tongues cut out and cast to Dogges If this were intended by Saint Paul I maruell why the Eunuch returning home into Ethiopla did not put downe Candace from being Queene If you take it not as you speake it for Equiuocators say one thing and meane another generally of all authority nor yet of any subiection but as Saint Paul restraineth it onely to Teaching and speaking in the Church we subscribe vnto you wee are of the same minde with you we say the same thing that you doe but then wee call your honesty into question and affirme you deale perfidiously with vs in belying vs and falsly with your Proselites in seducing them Did euer any Allen or Saunders or Parsons or Kellison heare Queene Elizabeth Preach Did euer any see her administer the Sacraments take vpon her to expound Scripture appoint Faith or denounce Excommunication Shee claimed and might and had authority commanding coerciue coactiue ouer Church-men Did shee euer challenge or vse it or was it giuen her in Church-seruice as Saint Tecla did and Saint Katherine of Siena in your Legends as Pope Ioane did if there sate such a strumpet in Saint Peters Chayre as Prioresses and Abbesses haue and exercise by your Canon Law or with Dispensations An Abbatesse may command the Priests that are subiect to her to excommunicate her rebelling Nunnes and the Priests are bound to obey her So Tabiena Armilla Panormitane Astensis The Canonists are of this minde saith Stephanus de Aluin that the dignity of Prelacy and excellency of Office may giue to Ecclesiasticall women therefore howsoeuer to women spirituall and Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction which they may enioy not onely by right delegated and committed vnto them but by ordinary also Now good Sir Gagger how digest you this good Catholicke Doctrine gaue wee euer so much to Queene Elizabeth Is this according to your Bibles or are your Bibles and ours not the same That of 1 Cor. 14. 34. is not cited according to our Bibles of the last Transation which you yet pretend to follow and howsoeuer cited it is not to purpose onely it discloseth your leud demeanor Saint Paul forbiddeth women to speake or teach in Churches so doe we And in conuenticles also you may see it inquirable presentable punishable in our visitations if any such presume to expound or interpret Scripture in priuate Houses You may sooner heare Pope Vrban preach then any Woman with vs to execute any function Ecclesiasticall who with you doe ordinarily baptize For satisfaction to poore misled Catholikes in this point if yet they will be satisfied take the resolution of our Church Art 37. The Queenes Maiesty it was made you know in Queene Elizabeths time hath the chiefe power in this Realme of England and other her Dominions vnto whom the chiefe gouernement of all Estates of this Realme whether they be Ecclesiasticall or ciuill in all causes doth appertaine and is not nor ought to be subiect to any forraigne iurisdiction 2. Where wee attribute to the Queenes Maiestie the chiefe gouernment by which titles wee vnderstand the mindes of some slanderous folke to be offended wee giue not to our Princes the ministring either of Gods Word or of the Sacraments The which iniunctions also lately set forth by Elizabeth our Queene doe most plainly testifie But that onely prerogatiue which wee see to haue beene giuen alwayes to all godly Princes in holy Scriptures by God himselfe that is that they should rule all estates and degrees committed vnto their charge by God whether they be Ecclesiasticall or temporall and restraine with the Ciuill Sword the stubborne and euill doers This is all that Queene Elizabeth had or challenged Publike Records publike notice publike testimony of the State and all that then liued are of greater credit I hope with all moderate and honest Romish Catholikes then the leud lying aspersions of a partiall Factionist such as this Fellow is and many of his companions are who haue taken vp this course as of inheritance and kinde to dare say any thing in despight of honesty and truth in ordine ad Deum for the Catholicke cause X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist THat Antichrist was to come and so prophecied of that he is called That man of sinne is in my Creed and an Article of my Beliefe as being plainly and directly expressed such in Scripture And this I know no Protestant but beleeueth But whether he was to be One particular man or a State a succession opposite to Christ I know no Article Canon or Iniunction that tyeth mee to beleeue The Church of England leaueth me to my opinion Euery man may abound in his owne sence and beleeue it or not beleeue it as he will For who dareth peremptorily define what God himselfe hath not but left at liberty The Fathers I grant runne most vpon one man So doe your Masters of the Roman Church The Protestant Writers doe most of them encline rather to a Succession and a state of men but not all Not all so peremptorily as not to encline notwithstanding vnto one man who more then any of his rank shall oppose himselfe to Christ in that state and Succession Antichristian vnto whom all those markes and descriptions set downe in holy Scripture shall perfectly agree as Zanchius and many others doe hold For in point of Prophecie and that so obscure as this vntill plaine euent doe make it manifest iudgements doe and may well sauing the peace of the Church vary nor should wee condemne or censure Dissenters any way from our priuate opinions Whether the Pope bee that Antichrist or not the Church resolueth not tendreth it not to be beleeued any way Some I grant are very peremptory too peremptory indeed that he is He for instance that wrote and printed it I am as sure that the Pope is Antichrist that Antichrist spoken of in Scripture as that Iesus Christ is God But they that are so resolute peremptory and certaine let them answere for themselues they
required by the Communion Booke That the sicke person make a speciall Confession if hee feele his Conscience troubled with any weightie matter And likewise before the receiuing of the Lords Supper according to which doctrine and iniunction our Bishops doe or should enquire in their Visitations touching the vse and neglect of this so good an order as did that right learned and reuerend Bishop of Norwich Dr. Oueral of late A man for admirable learning and yet as strange humility in communicating his knowledge vnto any poore Scholler hardly equalled sure out-gone by none since the world had him The 21. Article enquired of in his Visitation 1619. concerning Ministers is Whether doth your Minister before the seuerall times of the administration of the Lords Supper admonish and exhort his Parishioners if they haue their Consciences troubled and disquieted to resort vnto him or some other learned Minister and open his griefe that hee may receiue such ghostly counsell and comfort as his Conscience may be relieued and by the Minister hee may receiue the benefit of Absolution to the quiet of his conscience and auoyding of scruple And if any man confesse his secret and hidden sinnes being sicke or whole to the Minister for the vnburthening of his Conscience and receyuing such spirituall consolation doth or hath the said Minister at any time reuealed and made knowne to any person whomsoeuer any crime or offence so committed to his trust contrary to the 113. Canon that hee might be punished accordingly Which is not like the iniunction of those that hold Wee must confesse our Sinnes but onely vnto God Our people happely are negligent in performing this most behoofefull vse and practice of the Church but the judgement and resolution of the Church is not auerse from it as you belye vs much lesse is it our decision We must not confesse our Sinnes but onely vnto God The words of our Bible Matth. 3. 5. 6. are expresse for confessing I graunt and for confessing of Sinnes too But not expresse for publique or priuate confessing not for confessing vnto whom to man or vnto God not whether in generall they confessed themselues sinners or descended to some particulars there more ordinary direct and enormious sinnes These are not instanced discerned nor determined Writers are diuided in opinion You know it not onely because there was confessing of Sinnes it must needes be such confession of such Sinnes as you imagined Haue you read what Maldonate that learned Iesuite hath said of such bold Bayards as your selfe Quis vnquam Catholicus tam indoctus fuit vt ex hoc loco Confessionis probaret Sacramentum Was there euer any Catholique such a blocke as would goe about to proue out of this place the Sacrament of Confession Not in his time or before peraduenture Maldonate could not prophecie nor fore-see therefore that such an vnlettered Dolt would rise vp after him I doe speake but in his Language Indoctus is as much in effect If you meant not of sacramentall Confession bucus blennus es What other Confession could you speake of If of Confession sacramental in Maldonates iudgment bardus es howsoeuer fungus fatuus es For if all those that went out vnto Iohn Baptist came to him for shrift hee had shriuing worke enough for seauen yeares I adde It is happely intended They confessed vnto God For it is not said they confessed vnto Iohn And then what is become of your Therefore sinnes may be confessed vnto man Secondly your tenet is of must be not may be They did it voluntarily once therefore often and againe Wee must necessarily doe Thirdly they did it once in all their life and that on occasion and time extraordinary at their Baptisme not againe for any thing that wee know Your Confession is penitentiall flat opposite vnto this in Baptisme You may as well inferre out of this Text reiteration of Baptisme as reiteration of Confession Baptisme in Iordan necessarily as Confession of Sinnes necessarily So many incumbrances are in the words so many Non sequiturs vnto the maine That of Act. 19. 18. I graunt is more proper and as Bellarmine obserueth in some sort it is true that the words are of speciall Confession but yet they come not home vnto Auricular Confession in priuate into the Priests eare Againe it was not of inforcement or necessitie but of voluntary motion Nor is it expressed which is most materiall whether it were made onely vnto God or also vnto man If you be put to proue it what proofe or euidence can you make for it The Text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confessing and declaring openly what they had done Before men not vnto Paul or any Priestin priuate but vnto God before men that all the Assembly might take notice of it and vnderstand it That of Numb 5. 6. is for Confession vnto at least before the Priest but is your iudgement so crased to award vs the iniunction and practice of this Iewish Ceremony for a ground of Confession Sacramentall If so your braines are rather to be purged then your error refuted If you take it but for typicall as you must and will if you vnderstand your selfe then such Propositions are not argumentatiue Nor was there here enioyned any particular enumeration of their sinnes in kind but onely of that one sinne for which the Sin-offering was brought for which an attonement was sought to be procured by the Priest Peccatum illud quod feceram is Bellarmines obseruation and so no way for the point in Controuersie Confession Auricular vnto the Priest vnlesse onely by way of equality and conueniencie as left vnto vs free and not vpon obligation as to them which helpe you not Thus we haue no great satisfaction out of Scripture Goe and see Fathers that affirme as little Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 9. speaking of some silly women one or two seduced by Marcus a Sorcerer and Gnostique Hereticke relateth thus much that being reconciled and regained to the Catholike Church they confessed Marcus had abused them carnally which nothing promoteth their Catholique Cause vnlesse their ghostly Fathers should shriue them in secret as Marcus did They might confesse that before a temporall ludge vnto some Neighbour or friends of their owne To a Priest some Priests and yet not in aurem or if so yet not by speciall enumeration of all the circumstances or relation of their other sinnes It might be in the face of the Church in generall Irenaeus words are not confined Hae saepissimè conuersae ad Ecclesiam Dei confessae sunt secundum corpus exterminatas se ab eo velut Cupidine inflammatas valdè se illum dilexisse They confessed it often vnto many what Magicall inchantments he vsed to besot them Therefore not likely in Sacramentall Confession where hauing receiued absolution of the Priest it were but idle to confesse it againe vnlesse the man imagined the Protestants denyed and tooke away all Confession vpon any termes what neede
toward God had beene supplied by the store of Epaphroditus whereas the defect was temporary towards St. Paul to supply which Epaphroditus did venture his life Such legerdemaine befitteth well your cause not to be vpholden but by collusion Now goe and inferre your conclusion thus Therefore the passions of the seruants of God may be imparted and serue to good purpose to the Church which no man but like you will deny but is not the thing in question or to be proued And how commeth halting in the close Roman 9. 3. where Saint Paul remonstrateth his feruent loue indeede vnto his Brethren the lewes in wishing to be separated from Christ for them Goe you and doe so and you shall haue a better treasure in Heauen for vs Protestants your Brethren in the same alloy I wonder wee heare of no Fathers heere nor any bragge of their aboundance at least such a Catholique verity as this is can afford whole thraues of Fathers I neede not doubt But Roscius noster noluit agere aut crudior fuit Wee must be faine to be without them whom hee cannot name neither here nor for workes of Supererogation No maruaile for Causa est conclamata XV. That no man can doe any workes of Supererrogation WHat is meant by workes of Supererrogation wee may collect out of the Texts of Scripture cited viz. that man in the state of Grace and assisted by Gods grace may doe some things councelled and not commaunded or exacted in rigour Many particulars are produced it is commonly instanced in virginitie and wilfull pouertie For my part I know no Doctrine of our English Church against Euangelicall Counsels Priuate resolutions this way or that way are but opinions and may as well be reiected as admitted I willingly subscribe vnto antiquitie for the poynt of Counsels Euangelicall For Quod ex voluntate est laudis est amplioris saith Philastrius God putteth the yoake of Virginitie vpon no man but leaueth it to those that can and will vndergoe it Therefore Nazianzen well resolued Wee haue Lawes amongst vs that binde of necessitie others which be left vnto our free-choyce to keepe them or not so as if wee keepe them wee shall be rewarded if we keepe them not no feare of punishment or danger to be vndergone therefore But I deny thereupon workes of Supererrogation to be laide vp in store for imployments such indeede you call workes of Supererrogation not the things onely done by assistance of Gods grace as councelled only and not commanded Which were it so and no otherwise I would not contend with you but then your Magazin would be emptie enough of Church-treasure The truth is as faitors vse you play fast and loose For although a man in some one poynt may doe more than is exacted in many other things hee doth much lesse than he should doe A man professeth continency and single life hee must precisely keepe it He chastiseth and bringeth vnder his body with fasting praying lying on the ground c. the better to keepe it as those ancient Ascetae and Anachorites did in their meruailous and admirable Scleragogie This was more than they needed to haue done out of strict commaund But were they not defectiue Came they home thinke wee in many other things commaunded required vnder that fearefull dictate Doe this and liue Now set the Hares head against the Goose giblets let one score pay another and then much wil not be left to satisfie for others well for him that can answere for one If a man could in all things keepe the whole Law and haue no neede at all to say Forgiue mee my trespasses then hee might happely Supererogate as in opinion of the Aduersary the blessed Virgin may till then that wee meete with such perfect liuers wee may conclude rather for subtererogation than supererogation any way So this is your Doctrine of Supererogation vnto the Law that of Counsells Euangelicall is but of pretence to extenuate and palliate the enormitie of the other Mathew 19. 21. In our owne Bibles our Doctrine is crossed thus If thou wilt be perfect goe and sell that thou hast and giue to the poore and thou shalt haue treasure in Heauen then come and follow me A Councell I grant no Imperious forme of Precept If thou wilt not Doe this Left to choyce and liberty to doe or not Christ tyeth no man but leaueth him to doe or not doe But doth Christ say When thou hast so done thou shalt haue enough remaining in store to make satisfaction for another No. He goeth no farther then merit in their owne Language thus Thou shalt haue treasure laide vp for thee in Heauen For thee Not by thee for thine owne vse and employment against thy neede Not for others borrowing out of thy store viz. Thou shalt haue it in effect for thy selfe appropriated to thee not to conferre or bestow it vpon other that neede Farre short of your supererogation 1 Cor. 7. 25. 28. Now concerning Virgins 1 haue no commandement of the Lord yet I giue my iudgement you reade Councell as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithfull He that giueth her in mariage doth well but he that giueth her not in mariage doth better This hoe aduised and gaue his counsell as you will haue it and so let it be Man to keepe himselfe single and alone especially as those times then went and as the times succeeding were to be But so to doe was a worke of supererogation More I grant then they were tyed vnto by any Law of God which leaueth them at liberty and to themselues but let me see if Saint Paul hath any such inference as out of this same worke they could satisfie for their owne offences otherwise committed or other mens offences beside their owne or out of their supernumerary perfections adde any thing else vnto the Churches Stocke He that is able to receiue this counsell let him receiue and follow it all he can and when as he hath so done he shall benefit his owne Soule no profit wiâ—l thence out more then exemplary accrue vnto another These are indeed the workes of Supererogation which you meane The other are onely tiâ—ular and doe but halfe it So you wholy abuse and circumuent your Proselites in pleading for one and pâ—inting out another Mathew 19. 12. is of the former stampe He that is able to receiue it let him receiue it leaueth it at liberty without tye or precept 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He ordained this course for them that could receiue it as saith Eusebius This may suffice for Luke 10. 25. thou shalt finde nothing vnto purpose Fathers for the point wee may looke after but not see It is a vaine and false brag you could produce many All that you had heard of by relation of your Informers for poore man your selfe are not guilty of them wee shall finde in the case of keeping the Law Saint Chrysostome should haue gone amongst them there For
vertitur in istis the Church may subsist and prosper without any such determined resolution But seeing we beleeue and professe it too his lips would bee gagged and his idle brains garbled at the least for charging vs with such an vntroth What is so contrary can you tell to the expresse words of our owne Bible Not well 〈◊〉 wis Yes thâ—â— they had not their Angell-keeper For Mat. 18. 10. wee read the contrary not to that which wee deny for we deny it not If wee should deny it yet this Text thus cited would not conuince vs for do you finde Angelus cusâ—â—s Keeper or Guardian there Put on your considering Cap some what closer to your Cocks-comb Angell I finde and their Angels I finde In Heauen their Angels alway behold the face of my Father which is in Heauen but Angels and Angell-keeper are two seuerall words importing seueral offices in those heauenly Subsistences as I conceiue it And therefore That cannot inforce This except there were no Angels but Angels-Guardians in Heauen Again I finde Their Angels by appropriation but appropriation is in moe respects than one Their friends and well-willers they might well bee though not Guardians to attend them their Guardians sometime vpon speciall imploiments their Patrones assigned extraordinarily in Acts of Gods prouidence so many so diuerse especially on parties of their allotment But I take not aduantage as I might for I admit the Tenet concerning Keeping-Angels though vntowardly maintained by this poor Catholique Companion This I question the Object of Protection at randon specified in the Gag Their and They who were those They Euery one say you if you say what you should So teach your new Masters that neuer so learned it of their Fore-fathers In the now Doctrine of the Romane Schooles Euery man liuing hath his Angell-keeper Iew Gentile Turk Christian Pagan Epicure Atheist Antichrist himselfe and peraduenture diuell and all For Euery one in your opinion hath his Angell-keeper without restraint or limitation Are the words of our Bible expresse for this I cannot finde it in any of mine the contrary rather They are Little-ones who haue this Guard assigned Their Angels putteth vs back to them formerly mentioned and infisted vpon If Little ones then not Great-ones then not all and certainely not all though Great ones for these Little ones are Great indeed Great with God high in his bookes though Little in the world two wayes through contempt of others and their owne account out of Humility and Opinion Therefore now what Euery man hath his Angell-keeper No some haue and not all Therefore you are a blunderer in this Text of as little vnderstanding or lesse in that which followeth Psal 91. 11 12. The Prophet assureth thus from God Hee shall giue his Angels charge concerning thee to keepe thee in all thy waies They shall beare thee vp in their hands lest thou dash thy foote against a stone But this Text will not reach vnto euery man Simon Magus Mahomet or such like but either restrainedly vnto Christ Iesus incarnate in our flesh in all things sinne onely excepted tempted as we are and subject to infirmities and so Irenaeus Eusebius Augustine and others doe expound it as did also the diuell in his combate with Christ and then it is not to purpose for though it be granted which your Schooles dispute that Christ incarnate had his Angell-keeper a thing absurd injurious idle if not impious yet it goeth no farther but to one particular and him onely as Head of the Church and will confine this Keeperage to the Church Or it may be vnderstood more enlargedly of all those that it belongeth vnto that is Those that dwell vnder the shadow of the most High that haue made the Lord their refuge euen the most High God their habitation that is of them in the Church at least if not onely of The righteous in the Church as after Ignatius the major part of Authors haue expounded it Take it how you will this way or that it prooueth not that Euery one in generall tearmes hath his Angell-keeper but the Protestants Tenent Some haue onely and no more Saint Cyril of Alexandria is not ad oppositum he doth applie it to our Angell-keeper And let him in good time a Gods name so apply it I know no reasonable man but will embrace his application and bee glad to be assured of such a Guardian But that Our Angel Sir Gagger in your language vnto whom I pray is it applied To Iohn a Nâ—ke and Iohn a Stile with you To euery man in your Ashdod language Antichrist and All you cannot auoyd it for Antichrist with you is a singular man therefore if Euery man haue his Angell-keeper Antichrist a man must haue his auoid this if you can Now see if S. Cyril applieth this very passage as you would haue him See then how handsomely your Texts and Proposition hang together That is conceiued in these generall termes Euery man hath his Angell-keeper in opinion of your Masters for I think you cannot tell what they teach nor your self what to hold the explication is for singuligenerum Euery man liuing vpon Earth The proofes out of Scripture are restrained and speake onely for some men a Peculiar People the Righteous onely the sonnes of God at least that liue within the pale of the Church and haue interest in the Couenant of Grace Therefore though They had their Angels Guardians yet it followeth not All and Euery one hath so Go and see good Reader those places moe not Proofes for Euery mans Angell-keeper but as plaine Euidences of this fellowes witlesse allegations For first those Angels mentioned 1. Cor. 11. 10. may for ought he knoweth out of the Text be other Angels extraordinarily sent It is not said They were His or Theirs but indeterminately The Angels Therefore ought a woman to haue power vpon her head because of the Angells Secondly They may bee Angels of the Church in generall and not peculiarly of that man or this Thirdly Whosoeuer or whose-soeuer those Angels were we find them not in the Wildernes among the Tents of Cedar or at Babylon but in Sion in the Church the Chappell in the Chancell not onely spiritually in the Church of the Redeemed but materially in the place of Diuine Seruice vpon an Holiday In locosancto actione sacra So that these are no Rangers amongst the beasts of the Forrest they haue their seuerall walks in the Church-pale That Angell Acts 12. 14. is One a speciall one an Angell-keeper indeed Leiger with Saint Peter in his life but yet such an Angell as for whom Euery man is neuer theneere He enlargeth not the Guardianship vnto All but confineth it vnto Some A man in the Church a member of the Church Nay say you The Church in him prouided for him built vpon him committed to him Saint Peter's Angel that great Apostle of him speaketh Rhode it is his Angel Thus we haue seene all we are
likely to see The poore man can afford vs no Fathers heere his reading it seemeth would not reach vnto that and his good Masters were not at hand to help him I could furnish him if hee would thank mee to better purpose then his Scriptures haue but want I suppose he will rather then be beholding to a Protestant To conclude wee will not deny him that Euery man hath his Angell-keeper but within the Church at least not rambling abroad Are they not all of them ministring spirits sent forth to minister To whom where Not to euery man vnder heauen but with restriction Who shall be heyres of saluation In offensiue sort against their foes in defensiue manner for their good Thus the Scriptures speake and no otherwise thus the Fathers taught and no otherwise Not Euery man but Euery Christian man at his Birth or at his Baptisme hath his Guardian Angell deputed to him XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. WIth Ly and all Sir Gagger Not pray for vs Now I pray you who saith so No man will say or think so that beleeueth in his Creed The communion of Saints and can tell what connexion of the two parts of the Church of the Redeemed there is the one militant heere in Earth the other Regnant and Triumphant in Heauen Now a principall part of that Communion and Society which they haue with vs is to recommend our state and necessities vnto God our Father To which end God Almighty hath as wee professe in our Collect vpon Michaelmas Day appointed the Seruice of men and Angels in a wonderfull sort But somewhat there was or the man mistook Their Praying for vs may bee considered two waies either in Generall or in Particular For the peace of Sion the prosperity of Ierusalem the state and condition of the Church militant in earth thus in generall For Manasses in Captiuity Hezechiah beleaguered by Senacherib For this man or that man in particular vpon speciall motiues and occasions and that likewise two waies either ordinarily and of common course or specially by Delegation in extraordinary seruice Now this Proposition Holy Angels pray for vs doth not limit nor explaine the tearmes but is ambiguous as this peddler most an end frameth all in his Pack to calumniate and to deceiue Whether All Angels pray for All men or All for some men or some for all or some for some who can tell that was not of counsell to his pen and purpose As it lyeth lurking in fraudulent tearmes I can answere both waies and contradictory waies First Holy Angels pray not for vs and truly too Nor shall this Goose hiscere against my answere viz. Not euery holy Angell in speciall for euery man in particular Not at all times vpon any or all occasions I can also answer and truly too Holy Angels pray for vs. And so this Gagger may goe shoo the Goose That is It is a principall part of their performance in Heauen as they magnifie their Maker eternally so to recommend vnto Him vncessantly the Estate and good beeing of the Church of the Redeemed as yet in great Tribulations I adde yet further At all times some of them pray for the particular estate of some priuate Men Cities States Societies or Countries And the Holy Angell-keepers for their speciall charges commended vnto their trust by God at sometime some of them for all for some vpon special occasion employment or designation as extraordinarily they may and doe vndertake Now to come home to your loose laxe affirmation Your expresse words in our Bible are not so expresse as to speake to your purpose that of Zachar. 1. 9. 10. runneth thus O Lord of hosts how long wilt thou net haue mercy vpon Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iuda against which thou hast had indignation these 70 yeeres For it followeth not because this one Angell prayed for Ierusalem in Captiuity any Angel doth pray for any or euery man This was extraordinary your supposall must bee ordinary This was occasionall for his employment your Angels must not bee so allotted Happely this was their Angell-Guardian Michael Prince of the Synagogue Pleade thus for Angell-keepers none will gayn-say you They pray for vs no question at all This was in a peculiar case for restoring Ierusalem and Iuda according to promise in appointed time 70 yeeres designed by the Prophets So the question was idle like your selfe Whether this were not a Prayer The question well ordred should haue beene Whether All Angels at all times doe not in particular pray for euery particular man as this Angell heere did for Sion To the former wee answere positiuely Yea to the second negatiuely No. Nor can this instance euict that Tobie 12. 12. Raphael telleth Tobias thus When thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter-in-law I did bring the remembrance of your praiers before the Holy One. First what an Addle-head are you that trump in the Protestants way with this Testimony which your Masters can tell you for happely your ignorance knoweth not so much they esteem of no otherwise than a Talmudicall Tale Secondly how can you accord this Tale with your owne Tenents Raphael both speaketh heer as their Angell-keeper and carrieth himself so in that whole negotiation Raphael was of the highest Hierarchy next to Michael and Gabriel in your account Your selues teach that Angels of that Hierarchie are not Custodes nor imploied vnto men but all imployed ordinarily are of the inferiour and lowest rank Riddle me riddle mee what is this You told vs of one that could vntie knots let him vntie this or cut it in pieces for it troubleth vs not a little That Angell Reuel 8. 4. from whose hands the smoke of incense ascended which is expressed to haue been the prayers of Saints who was he can you tell mee whether the Angell of the Couenant Christ Iesus himself or Michael the Protector of the Church do you knowe or some other Angell are you assured Was his imployment ordinary or extraordinary can any tell Mysticall you may be sure this Passage is and can you draw Arguments from such Testimonies Your great vnderstanding doth happely think Yea the common resolution is for Nay But howsoeuer the praiers of all Saints that is of the Church were offred to God in the hands of an Angell their Mediator therefore All Angels pray for all men or some Angels for some men ordinarily I deny the necessity of this doctrine When you say more you shall heare further but much more I beleeue you cannot for you fail of your wonted Cue See more and See Fathers that affirm it neither Scripture nor Fathers heer In Conclusion from whence drew you forth this imputation that The holy Angels pray not for vs For Bellarmine your Polstar and Cynosura in point of Controuersie doth confesse It is not denied that Sancti and so Angell orant pro nobis saltem in genere secundum Scriptur as And those that assent as most doo aâ— the
Sabaoth Which very words wee vse in our solemnizing of the holy Communion thus Therefore with Angels and Archangels and the company of Heauen wee laud and magnifie thy glorious name euermore praysing thee and saying Holy holy holy Lord God of hosts Heauen and earth are full of thy glory Glory bee to thee O Lord most high Can this Goose gaggle against this Augustine is next lib. 1. de Serm. Dom. in Monte cap. 5. in whom I finde no such diuision nor any thing to purpose And lib. de doct Christ cap. 7. againe As if there were but one booke there being foure and no such matter in any 7. Chapter Who can brooke such an ignorant or negligent companion in a point of controuersie and imputation Which is also obserued by him in Saint Gregory Saint Gregory is to be seene lib. 1. Moral cap. 28. in which booke there are not so many Chapters nor in the Chapters which are any such thing The truth is that which was meant is lib. 29. Moral vpon the 38. of Iob the same in effect with Saint Ambrose before Esais quoque cùm Laudem Trinitatis aperiret Seraphini voces exprimens ait Sanctus sanctus sanctus ac ne tertiò SanctuÌ„ nominaÌ„s vni â—ateÌ„ diuinae substantiae scindere videretur adtuÌ„xit Dominus Deus Sabaoth which almost word for word is repeated Homil. 16. and not 19. as we find it cited vpon Ezechiel To which hee might haue added Psal 67. Benedicat nobis Deus Deus noster Benedicat nobis Deus and that in Rom. XI For of him and by him and in him are al things to him be praise for euer Amen These are his Fathers that should affirme the same videlicet that it is nor superfluous nor superstitious to repeat one the same prayer oftentimes They repeat nothing they affirm nothing they only speak what was done That which they speake wee doe That which they are supposed to affirme against vs if they did affirme any thing needed not For we affirme vse propose and maintaine the same priuately publiquely in our Liturgie and Seruice of the Church To conclude Sir Gagger bring mee any one Place of Scripture any practice resolued of the Catholicks any decision of the Church representatiue any determination of the Church collectiue in a particular approued Synod any Saying of any one Father of Credit dogmatically resolued for 500. yeeres and better after Christ to the end of the Councell of Chalcedon against any thing established in the Church of England that is in the Communion-booke the booke of Articles the booke of Consecrating Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons and I will subscribe Heer is scope enough to ramble in Gagge me if you can As for priuate opinions I am bound to none no not vnto my owne Quisque abundet in sensu suo so be it hee trouble not the Church therewith FINIS Curteous Reader before I presse thee to peruse this treatise haue I pray thee so much patience as to permit me to giue thee my aduice concerning some certaine poâ—nts very necessary for thâ—e the â—ettâ—â— to sâ—me thy selfe thâ—â—of with fruit and pâ—ofit The first point is that in the inscription thereof it doth not tell thee out of which English Bible the alleadged pâ—stages are extracted For as much as this were mecrely in vaine sith that England hath brought forth within these few years past to the number of 20. seueralâ—â—orts of Bibles farre different one from another so that the Protestants haue not all one sort of Bible Notwithstanding know this for certainty that they are faithfully taken forth of the Bâ—â—le in quarto Printed at London by Robert Barker Anno 1615. If any one shall shew vnto thee some other Bible wherein they are not so written word for word as here they are yet rest assured and out of doubt that thou shalt finde theÌ„ written as they are here alleadged at the least in this of Robert Barkers The second point is that thou admire the splendour of Truth and accordingly to stand as stoutly and as immooueably in the maintenance and defence thereof Yet neuerthelesse their condemnation is so expresly set downe in their owne Bibles and is so cleare to all the world that nothing more needs hereto but onely that thou know to reade and haue thy eyes in thy head at the opening of this their booke * This in my mind cannot choose but be an exceeding comfort vnto a Catholike Yea rather a great signe of security and assurance concerning the truth and vprightnesse of his cause in shewing himselfe content to be tried by their owne Bibles The translations whereof doth in a number of places and particularly in those that are now in controuersie swarue and differ notoriously from the Authenticall Latin and that to the incredible disparagement darkning and obscuring of the Catholike verity Neuer did nor neuer dare our aduersaries offer themselues to giue the like aduantage to vs as to be tryed by our own translations The third is that when thou shalt vrge or alleadge any passage in fauour of thine owne faith if any one returne the change be it either in recriminationâ— and blaming of the Roman Church or be it in alleadging some obscure text and ill vnderstood to counterpoint thine Shew c. The fourthis that they reiect some one of the passages which thou producest pretending it to be Apocrypha though it be not true That to preuent this obiection no such scriptures as they call Apocryphall are there produced but still there goe accompanied with them others also that are Canonical But if they shall contend with thee not about the words themselues as being both cleere and Canonicall but about the sense or meaning of theÌ„ know this that for such places as may bee subiect to such cauill thou hast here the warrant and authority of the holy fathers which haue vnderstood these places in the selfe-same sense that Catholickes doe A thing which they can neuer do in their defence And what reason were it then to preferre the priuate interpretation of a Cobler before S. Chrysostome of a Baker before S. Basil of a Tinker before Tertullian and so of others I here protest in the presence of God whom I call vpon in this behalfe Which yet should be to alter the text and to imploy mans wisdome in stead of the word A thing by their owne confession forbidden them they protesting c. Farewell my deare Reader seeing I haue now said all that vnto thee which I desired Gag Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Against Acts 8. 30. c. Against Luk. 24. 15. How then are Scriptures so easie to be vnderstood of the vnlearned when the Disciples themselues vnderstood them not till first they were expounded vnto them See more 2 Pet. 1. 20. Gag See Fathers which affirme the same Iren. lib. 2. cap. 47. Origen lib. 7. cont Celsum Ambr. Ep. 44 ad Constant calleth it a Sea a depth of Propheticall
scripturis spiritualibus existentibus quaedam quidem absoluamus secundum gratiam Dei quaedam ante commendemus Deo If so be in the workes of Creation some keepe close vnto God in secret some are apprehended and vnderstood by vs what hurt or inconuenience is it if in Scripture all Scripture being spirituall there be something contayned which through assistance of Gods grace we can goe through with and againe some thing that we must leaue vnto God Iust the doctrine of the Protestants that some things may bee vnderstood some things past our vnderstanding Non solum in hoc saeculo so it followeth there sed et in futuro Not onely in this world but that to come that God may euer teach man euer learne of God The waters of Silo some where runne pleasantly and may be passed in other some places not foordable Origen singeth the same Protestant song and that in moe places then one of his bookes against Celsus as lib. 5. twise hom 14. vpon Exodus and other where The place you meane lib. 7. contra Celsum I thinke is this For you could not tell whereabout or what it was because your good founder C. W. B. failed you Celsus being a Pagan and an Epicure as happily you are made the same obiection I am sure which you doe now pag. 345. edit Graec-Lat that the Scripture was obscure and vncertaine the sense and meaning not to be found out by wise men so that the ignorant and indiscreet abused it at pleasure More then which no liuing Iesuite could haue said No Protestant would answere a Iesuite otherwise then Origen doth vnto that Pagan Celsus Certe ipsi Prophetae quicquid erat opus mox ab Auditoribus intelligi et quicquid ad corrigendos mores faciebat absque vllis involucris proposuerunt ijs ita vt Deus voluit The Prophets themselues expounded to their Auditors anon whatsoeuer was for them to be vnderstood and whatsoeuer serued to make them good men that they proposed vnto them as Gods will was they should plainly without obscurity at al. Had the Protestants feed him hee could not haue spoken more fully and to purpose in their cause and yet he proceedeth to declare why Figures Parables and Allegories are vsed therein a long discourse to purpose pag. 345. See him that will It is not denied Saint Ambrose Ep. 44. to Constantius compareth the holy scriptures vnto a Sea and calleth them a depth of Propheticall riddles Mare est scriptura diuina habens in se sensus profundos altitudinem Propheticorum aenigmatum in quod mare plurima introierunt flumina But not all scripture in his opinion is that Sea onely Propheticall riddles are that Sea beside which diuersa sunt scripturarū fluenta as he addeth diuers streames brooks shallowes and currents be in the scripture Habes quod primū bibas habes quod secundum habes quod postremum Scripture fitted to euery capacity I know no Protestant that wil aske more Saint Hierome is next who out of Bellarmines obseruations could haue afforded vs three places moe and more materiall from whence this mans director tooke his store and rather should he haue taken any testimony then this if he vnderstood the credit of his witnesse For the commentaries vpon the Epistles extant vnder Saint Hicromes name be none of his but are the Collections of Pelagius the Hereticke as not Protestants say but Papists of name and note Catharme Senensis Pererius Bellarmine and Victorius Marianus Such an aduocate we neede not enuie our aduersary Much good may Pelagius the Heretickes testimony doe him But let him passe for Saint Hierome there is not any thing to purpose spoken by him That which he saith is this He had studied the Scriptures much and long had conference with diuers learned men all his time about the sense thereof and had purposely vndertaken a iourney vnto Didymus at Alexandria vt ab eo in scripturis omnibus quae habebam dubia sciscitarer Therefore what First this Didymus at least vnderstood all scripture or how could he resolue all the doubts of scripture what needed Hierome to haue gone so long a iourney vnto him therfore scripture al of it is to be vnderstood Secondly vnto Hierome all scripture was not hard he proposed vnto him the doubts he had which implyeth they were not infinite not all scripture obscure or doubted of therefore thirdly this proueth the Protestant opinion true that the Scriptures are some of them easie enough to be vnderstood Saint August Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith somewhat more For he descendeth vnto Comparison and saith The things of holy scripture which I know not are many moe then those which I know Such was his humility to say so like vnto Saint Paul in the same case who knew nothing and yet your selfe Sir a man of lesse skill then Saint Augustine not to be named the same day with him if you should goe and make a list of the particular verses in the scripture which you vnderstand and of those you vnderstand not I doe not doubt but those would be more then these and yet further these being so he might iustly and truely say so of all almost For of one and the same place there may be moe senses then one yea euen literall senses and intended by the holy Ghost so that knowing one sense perhaps primary and naturall he may be ignorant of the other and thus all Scripture may be hard Saint August opinion was indeed no other then our opinion is as appeareth in Ep. 100. to Volusianus Tanta est Christianarum profunditas literarū c. Such and so great is the depth of Christian scriptures that I might still euery day learne and profit by them informe my selfe of that I know not before if so bee that at most leysure with my vtmost paines and trauell indowed with as good a wit as any man can haue I should set my selfe to learne them and them alone from my very infancy to decrepite age Hitherto Saint August in appearance for the Papist now insueth for the Protestant Not s◠but that the things absolutely necessary to Saluation are compassed with much losse difficulty and vnderstood But when a man hath once resolued his Faith in them without which no man can liue well and godlily those men that will goe forward with greater proficiency shall meete with so many things in such wise shadowed with mysticall meanings so great proofe and depth of wisedome therein couched not onely in the words which set forth the things vnto vs and to our vnderstanding but also in the things vnderstood Insomuch as that auncient students of pregnant wit of vnwearied pains doe find it verrified in themselues here which the same scripture hath in a certaine place Sirac 18. 7. When a man hath done then is he to beginne So truly doth Saint August resolue for either opposite part who haue shared the Truth betwixt them This was the doctrine once euen of
are old enough the Church is not tyed nor any man that I know to make good their priuate imaginations Nor can or ought the seuerall fancies of men to be imputed vnto the authorized and approued Doctrine of the Church A fault more then ordinary with you Papists to charge the Church of England with euery priuate opinion that any man holdeth in our Church though he be singular and alone For my selfe I professe ingenuously I am not of opinion that the Bishop of Rome personally is that Antichrist that Vrban the VIII or Gregory the XV or Paul the V. were Antichrist though Pauls name Borghesie before he was Pope written in Greek St Iohns Language doth make 666. the number of the Beast Nor yet that the Bishops of Rome Successiuely are that Antichrist so spoken of An Antichrist I hold him or them carrying themselues as they doe in the Church either as the word hath hitherto beene taken for one that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against Christ or according to the new tricke and deuice of some for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in stead or place of Christ Rather in this point I should encline vnto that opinion of many Protestant Diuines that for the State Antichristian the Turke and Pope together may seeme to make it and for the Person some one notorious varlet aboue the rest Thus Zanchius and others so Melanthon Draconites vpon Daniel Oecolampadius vpon the same Hiperius vpon the second Epistle to the Thessalonians Zanchius in Miscellan Lambert in Apocal. Zegedynus in Locis Grynaeus in praefat Eiusdem Libri and a Disputation at Geneua 1589. vnder Faius I say rather this way then the other though for full resolution I cannot resolue for either but professe my ignorance in such mysteries and therefore as is fitting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and craue pardon But had I no greater cause to refraine from concluding then your wise worshipfull reasons Sir Gagger I should conclude as peremptorily as any Papa est ipsissimus Antichristus Your Texts are not expresse they are not euictiue nor conuincing 2 Thes 2. 3. He is called That man of sinne the sonne of perdition Your inference is hereupon thus The words Man of sinne and sonne of Perdition being singular doe plainly proue that a succession of men as the Popes are cannot be this man of sinne For so Saint Peter also should be Antichrist for he was Pope and the very first of all the Popes So your good Gossips long since reasoned in this point but idely all and you more Though the words be singular and personall Man of sinne and Sonne of Perdition yet followeth not that the subiect is one Person they may denote a body For any Corporation though collected out of Pluralities is a totum and so but one and so singular in it selfe The Prophecies of Iacob for Iudah and his other Sonnes runneth precisely in singular and personall termes yet your selfe I thinke are not so sencelesse as to fasten them all vnto the Persons of the Patriarchs The Man of sin is personall in termes I grant but the designation may be a collectiue vnity a Corporation a Succession A sinfull man a wicked generation an impious body and an Antichristian State You haue read in the Psalmes That the man of the Earth be no more exalted against them And againe For man goeth about to deuoure me Some priuate man the Prophet meant by your reason no Company combination or society of men For The words Man and Man of the Earth being singular doe plainely proue that he could not intend any priuate man this is your reason for the Pope As for Saint Peters being then a limbe of Antichrist because he was Pope and the first of Popes I answere that he was none of Antichrists members because he was first For the Spring is good and wholsome where the streame is muddy bitter or vnwholsome the foundation good where the building is ruinous the first most regular where Succession is not Those that hold the Pope Antichrist neuer imagined all Popes to be so but the defection of Popes since the falling away either from the Faith or from the Roman Empire or rather indeede from both So that Saint Peter though Bishop of Rome and a Pope and many other succeeding him in that See cannot be included within the pale of Antichrist although it be pleaded that the Pope is Antichrist and resolued so Reuel 13. 18. The holy Spirit giueth both you and others good aduise Qui operta sacri supparo silentij irrumpere audent Let him that hath vnderstanding count the number of the Beast for it is the number of a man I cannot tell certainely what is meant by that number of a man You can it should seeme but this I can tell as I haue told you already that a man doth not euer and necessarily imply a particular and singular man For the name of Christ is as particular rather more singular than the name of man and yet your owne directors acknowledge it is attributed vnto any and all that haue any similitude or resemblance vnto him as Prophets Kings Priests And your last Text to be seene is 1 Iohn 2. 22. where hee is a lyer that denieth Iesus that denieth the Father and the Sonne is Antichrist and yet I hope no singular man necessarily Therefore the great Antichrist may not be a particular man XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine Sinnes SInnes are forgiuen two wayes by power originall and authority by deriued power and delegation God alone and none but God doth or can forgiue sinnes the first way against whom onely sinnes are committed Psalm 51. Against thee onely haue I sinned and therefore Esay 43. 25. I am hee that blotteth out iniquities for my selfe In this sence the Pharises did not erre Luke 5. Who can forgiue sinnes but God alone In this sence it is true and truely maintayned None but GOD can forgiue or retaine sinnes Verum dicunt Scribae The Scribes say true faith venerable Bede No man can forgiue sinnes but God alone And hee doth forgiue them by the ministery of those men to whom hee hath giuen power to forgiue them by actiue delegation Hee hath giuen power vnto men to doe that wee professe and maintaine The Priest hath power and authoritie from God to forgiue sinnes in as ample manner as hee can receiue it So your Fathers and Scriptures may well be spared and haue beene kept by you in store against a dearer time Your owne director Controu 9. hath these words to our aduantage and acquittall and your confusion Hereunto is also pertinent the doctrine of those Protestants who hold That Priests haue power not onely to pronounce but to giue remission of sinnes That hold most of the forenamed authors and others very many Yes it seemeth to be the doctrine of the Communion Booke in the visitation of the sicke where the Priest saith And by his authoritie committed vnto mee I absolu◠thee
It is well he told vs not in what Chap. we might finde it Such Roters as these are the men that talk of Fathers amongst their Gossips and Proselytes and yet are so stupid as not to know what works a common Father hath written Besides had Tertul. wrote such a second book or sayd any such matter in that second book a Protestant of but meane reading could tell him Tertullian wrote that book beeing lapsed into Montanisme and so of no authority in the Church for resolution though for relation But the truth is the man did but vse Tertullian's name for a cypher to fill vp a number make a fair dumb shew of a Shepheard with a sheepe on his shoulders on a Chalice which is the picture he looked at in Tertul. But I can send him to Tertullian to learne how like a Woodcock hee remembred those Texts of Scripture for the Cherubins Sic et Cherubin et Seraphin aureâ in arce figuratum exemplum certè simplex ornamentum accommodata suggestut longe diuersos habendo causas ab Idololatriae conditione ob quam similitudo prohibetur non videntur similitudinum prohibitarum Legi refragari non in eo similitudinis statu deprehensa ob quem similitudo prohibetur Lib 2. con Mar. 22. This commeth home to the reason why God ordained them and answereth your Cauill to the full As for your Images take his description in the like de Praescript cap XII Igitur si statuas et imagines frigidas mortuorum suorum simillimas non adoramus quas milui et mures et aranâ—ae intelligunt nonne laudem magis quà m poenam merebatur repudium agniti erroris Hee thought not then very honorably of Imagines whom wee are bidden goe see for I know not what engrauing on the Chalices For Gregory Nazianzen I did much maruaile what it was wee might see in him concerning Images who writeth onely a deprecatory Epistle in behalf of the Inhabitants of Diocaesarea vnto Olympius the Emperours Lieutenant For I could finde nothing tending vnto Images but onely this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is not much if the Statuae bee demolished and cast downe though it be indeed a pitty to haue such a thing done And what is heere to bee seene any way to purpose This man I beleeue had read or rather heard of Billius note vpon the place this Hic obserua Gregorij quoque tempore aedes sacras statuis imaginibus ornatas fuisse and hauing heard of it made much adoe about it whereas Nazianzen doth not so much as mention Churches nor Chappels the statues hee speaketh of were publique Ornaments of the City and as for worshipping of them it came not within the compasse of his thoughts Billius meant well to the Catholique cause and out of his affection set downe that which hee would haue had Nazianzen speake but not what he did say for Nazianzen not so much as squinteth that way More may any man maruaile at his trifling with Saint Basil on Barlaam the Martyr What shall I call thee O valiant Souldier of Christ Iesus Shall I call thee a Statue or Image of brasse why it is not so solid or substantiall as thou art for Fire doth melt it but fire could not cause thee pluck forth thy hand This is not that passage peraduenture intended but that which insueth Exurgite nunc athleticorum gestorum pictores mutilam ducis imaginem vestro illustrate artificio et obscurius à me depictum coronatum athletam vestrae industriae coloribus conspicuum reddite not with a pencill conceiue not Basil to haue beene a Painter but with a penne So that Homers describing Achilles Vlysses in this mans construction is painting in a table with colours and portraiture to the life None but a Statue would thus discourse or one more senslesse than a block What Basil and Nazianzen could not doe Augustine shall supply who witnesseth that in his time Christ was to bee seene painted in many places betwixt Saint Peter and Saint Paul So is hee in many Churches with vs betwixt the blessed Virgin and Saint Iohn Euangelist So was the holy Virgin by Saint Luke you say So let them be euery where if you please Not the making of Images is misliked not the hauing of Images is condemned but the prophaning of them to vnlawfull vses in worshipping and adoring them XLIIII That no man hath at any time seene God and that therfore his picture or Image cannot be made IGnorant Blunderer whither wilt thou Sure the man is not wel in his wits that challengeth the Protestant vpon these termes No man at any time hath seene God Is it not plaine expresse Scripture that Ioh. 1. 18. No man hath seene God at any time Exo. 33. 20. Thou canst not see my face For there shall no man see mee and liue No man hath no man can in this life no nor in that which is to come So Saint Paul 1. Tim. 6. 16. Whom neuer man saw nor yet can see The reason is rendred by a Pagan 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mortall men haue mortall eyes and God inhabits Immortality and yet this Gagger thinks to gag the Spirit of truth by opposing Texts of Scripture to the contrary that a man may see God Gen. 3. 8. Where God appeared vnto Adam walking in the Garden of Paradise in a corporall forme Accursed Glosser to corrupt the Text There wee read They heard the voyce of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the coole of the day So Hearing and Seeing is all one with this man that hath lost both Hearing and Seeing vnderstanding too A voice in his Philosophy is a corporall forme and so to heare one speake is to see one go and Moses said he knew not what Deuter. 4. 12. You heard the voice of words but saw no similitude saue a voice A whip for a fool rather than an answer to his folly Gen. 28. 12 13. God appeared vnto Iacob standing aboue the Ladder whereon the Angels ascended and descended In what shape did he appear can you tell The Lord stood aboue it so are the words and spake Hee might there stand and speak as hee did in Sinah and yet as saith the Scripture they see no shape So that yet wee haue nothing but belying of Scripture and deprauing the Text to countenance Idolatry in consequence Exod. 33. 11. To Moses He spake face to face as a man speaketh vnto his friend Your great Prophet S. Thomas shall stop your mouth 1. 2. q. 98 ar 3. Secundum opinionem populi loquitur Scriptura The Scripture speaks according vnto popular opinion who thought that Moses talked face vnto face with God cùm per subiectam creaturam id est per Angelum Nubem ei loqueretur appareret where as indeed God appeared vnto and talked with him by the meanes of creatures an Angell in a cloud Or if not so and this answer will not serue by face to face the Scripture meaneth a certain eminent and
more familiar kinde of apparition goe answer Saint Thomas And your Masters can tell you that whereas it is related in the old Testament often that God appeared vnto men the Doctors of the Church are not resolued whether God appeared at any time personally or wholly by the Ministery of Angels Your men the Iesuites Victorellus Vasquez and the rest nay all later Diuines saith Vasquez but Clicthoâ—â—us affirme that God neuer appeared but by the Ministry of Angels So that your expresse testimonies are in a wise case and your self an Ignorant or a Confident that knew not this or dare oppose your Yea vnto their Nay Therefore Esay 6. 1. he that sate vpon the Throne and he that Dan. 7. 9. is described was not God but some Angell or if God yet the second Person the Father neuer appearing vnto any Therefore as Vasquez himself confesseth that great Vpbearer of Roman Idolatry Henricus quodlibeto 1. Abutensis in 4. Deuter. Durand in 3. d. 9. q. 2. ad 4. Martin Aiala de Tradit 3. part doo teach it as well as Caluin that it is vtterly vnlawfull to picture or represent the Trinity or God otherwise than as in Christ hee took our flesh and was found among vs as a man These were nor Hereticks nor Protestants that did teach so and yet we see it ordinary amongst our good Catholicks to represent the picture of the Trinity moe waies than one which neuer appeared in humane shape as yet to any Impious Artificers not onely vain that make the most blessed and most glorious Trinity a certain Geryon or as Tertullian phraseth it Sororem vasculorum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A thing not onely contrary vnto reason but to the despite and contumely of God whose glory being such as cannot be vttered and shape such as cannot be expressed is denominated from and represented in base and corruptible things that haue no permanency without supply So feelingly complained Iustine Martyr of your Camerades the Idolaters of those times Such Images Hesselius a Papist Professor at Louain wherby God the Father is represented in an humane shape vtterly himself disliketh and iustifieth his dislike out of the Fathers that not onely Protestants may bee the mislikers of such impiety but Papists of better spirits and more solid learning XLV That it is not lawfull to worship Images nor to giue any honour to any dead or insensible thing TWo seuerall questions as often confusedly propounded in one Proposition which are of different natures of vnequall extents of diuers and disparated approbation The latter that It is not lawfull to giue any honour to any dead or insensible thing is a false imputation cast vpon vs an horrible lie against common sense refelled in the ordinary practice of Protestants who giue honour and respect though not adoration to many dead and insensible things as this Fellow liuing in a Protestant State cannot choose but knowe vnlesse with Bartimaeusâ—ee â—ee were borne blinde and withall hath continued deaf from his mothers womb This he cannot prooue by expresse words that we deny nor yet any consequence thereupon It is contrary he telleth vs for fashion sake vnto the expresse words of our owne Bible What is contrary that It is not lawfull to worship images or to giue any honour to dead things Two distinct Assertions not of necessary consequence or dependance and so not necessarily inferred one vpon the other Besides where is that expresse place of our Bible which is contrary to that Assertion This place was forgotten through too much haste I will supply the defect and designe the place which the man intended when he ouer passed it Exod. 3. 5. Iosua 5. 15. Put off thy shoâ—es from thy feet for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground This may prooue that at some time by speciall precept vpon some occasion some insensible thing may be honoured which no Protestant euer went about to deny but the inference they doo and most iustly may as hauing no reason of illation Therefore an image representing vnto vs an holy thing may be worshipped say and not honoured for of honour we contend not our difference is about worship onely But take it of honour and see the handsome consequence God said Some ground was holy therefore all Images may bee worshipped What an Image of Rie-dough is this Cods-head To as good sense it might be spoken Ierusalem was called The holy City therfore the Iewes might worship Images Or The Temple was an holy place none but Israelites and those also clean might enter there the Priests and Leuites did wash their feet being to doo seruice there all common people wiped off the dust from their feet when they entred therein therfore Ahaz might erect his Altars there Manasses prophane it with Idolatry Antiochus set vp the abomination of desolation there Had not the Beast cause to low thus Lo how cleer a place is heer produced against the Protestants wherein an insensible creature without reason was commanded by God himself to be honoured for the refraining to tread vpon it was the doing of honour to it Therefore an Image c. Of Honour be it but not Worship Honour and worship differ more than latria and dulia doo Without sense I grant and life too The earth hath neither life nor sense The earth was made to tread vpon It was not great honour To inhibite this course of kinde Honour was done not Worship not to the place but to the Holy place The place was holy not in it self not made so by man but from the personall presence of the most High Make an Image so holy and then so honour it This honour was not you were asleep man in refraining to tread vpon the earth for where stood Moses and Iosua when they talked with God in the aire or no-where or in the fift imaginary body But the honour was In refraining to tread on it with their shooes on as when men come into the Church but vncouer the head at their entrance into the Church And for the honour in kinde or correspondency what similitude betwixt that yours to an Image You fall down vnto an Image at least before it You honour the Image with the same honour that the Representee is honoured withall at least accidentally in your relatiue worship Did Moses or Iosuab so honour the ground Fell they downe vnto it Put they their shooes off to it for the grounds sake and not rather for the presence of God there whom without any relatiue worship at all they honoured immediately in himself Any thing I see will serue a Priests turn No matter what you prate so that you prattle Happy men that haue so pliant Proselytes that so easily beleeue whatsoere is told them though it be a tale of a Tub. There is a respect due to all the works of God as good as his as arguing the art and excellency of the Maker so all of them are honourable in their kindes Doo you