popish shiftes euen the olde worne argumentes of antiquitie and vnwritten verities so often and so much stoode vppon by the Papistes Alas that these men should plead to be true Christians and yee thus openly take parte with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and will verifie his word where he saieth That they which receyue not the loue of the trueth that they may bee saued hee will sende them stronge delusions to beleeue lyes that they may bee damned Fiftly note howe he maketh the ordinances touching outwarde gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither writtē at all Surelie this is strange diuinitie It is an ordinance not onely concerning the inward but also the outward gouernment of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof It is therefore no matter of faith It cōcerneth the outward gouernment whether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the church or no Doeth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the Word and hearing of it preached administration and receyuing of the Sacraments are matters concerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church doe they not therefore touch faith Admonition and exhortation concerne also the outwarde gouernement of the Church doe they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this diuinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lordes supper being ceremonies shal be no matters of faith at all amongst them But here they stay not but adde moreouer That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church bee arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate and not certen nor written in the booke of God Whervpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or of Cāterburie be head and Archbishop of the Church of God Whether Jewes onely of the tribe of Leui may nowe minister the holy things of God in his Church Whether Christ haue giuen any giftes and set any offices in his Church for the Ministerie and guidance thereof Whether prayer must bee in a knowne or vnknowne tounge Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored Whether the church may excommunicate Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunication be to be regarded Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacramentes Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other ceremonies and sacrifices of the Lawe be now to be vsed Whether the Heathenishe sacrifices and worship be to bee ioyned withall Whether creame oyle salt spitle crossing and coniuring be to be vsed in Baptisme Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to bee giuen to the lay people as they call them Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the church Whether the Iewish and Popish vestimentes fastes and holy dayes are to be obserued and a thousande such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By these mens Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnwritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Moreouer if it please them the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publike ministers of the worde Sacraments and censures of the Church any that will may without a calling take vpon him to bee a publique officer in the church Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper The Jewishe Romish or Heathenish priesthood may be retayned Auricular confession may be vsed The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may bee appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterburie or any other whom soeuer The Prelates and their Officials excommunications do binde in heauen The Apochriphall bookes and Decretall epistles are canonicall scriptures The Papes Portuis and the English booke of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God Orders pennaunce extreame vnction matrimonie c. are the Sacramentes of the Church Cap Surplis Cope Tippit Rotchet c. are ornamentes of the Ministerie Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the church And touching them say these men Christ hath not left any ordinances written certen or perpetuall but left them at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this straunge Diuinitie Yet they stay not there neither but as men that haue bent their tongues like bowes for lyes they feare not to adde moreouer that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth anie ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement ceremonies of the Church we are to account them to be Christes owne ordinances who hath left this libertie to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more or can any desire a more euident proof then this that these men and assemblies thus holding professing and practizing as here them selues affirme can not in this estate by the word of God be deemed med true Christians and Churches Sixtly obserue howe yet moreouer they seeke shiftes would colour the matter pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will helpe them no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seeing they are not written not certen nor perpetuall as heere is affirmed it will followe that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfuull and skilsull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this worde simplie added as if they graunted that they were of the foundation though not simplie as they speake Secondlie wee aske whether the outwarde gouernement and ceremonies ordeyned by Christ for his church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernement and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully sett downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be obserued by vs as the other were by the Jewes Heb. 3.2.3 or rather much more inasmuch as Christ the Son is worthy more glorie and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdlie we aske what foundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them helde that Corah Dathan Abiram and their companions held not Differing from them and erring only touching the Priesthood and Ministerie which concerned the outward orders gouernement of the Church was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companies in that estate the true Jsraell of God Or were not the other truthes they helde by this meanes frustrate and of none effect
did somtime ioyne and cōmunicate This therfore he saith maketh for them and against vs most notably 1 But first let him tell vs if many “ As that of Leu 10. Num. 16.1 c. Esa 1.11 12 13 14 15. Zeph. 1.12 1. Cor. 11.19 thinges which are verified sometimes of the members of a true Church may not also fitly be applyed and alleadged against a false Church and yet not iustifie their estate and constitution neither make for them but against them altogeather Otherwise he condemneth at once all the Martirs heretofore who vsually alleaged this * Mat. 15.9 very Scripture against the false worship of the Romish Church as him selfe cannot he ignorant Yet in his learning it seemeth the Papistes might well haue aunswered the Martirs againe that this Scripture was verified of them that were of the true visible Church and therefore made for them and against the Martirs most notably 2 Secondly when he saith this Scripture is verified of such as were of the true visible Church with whom Christ and his Apostles communicated Let him also tell vs whether he meaneth that Christ and his Apostles communicated with them in their vaine traditions If he thinke they did that very “ Mat. 15.2 Chapter sheweth the contrary besides that the whole Scriptures testifie that Christ was altogeather free from sinne which hee could not haue bene if he had ioyned with them in those their inuentions If they did not as it is without all question then what doth this helpe those men who all of them ioyne and communicate with the false worship of these assemblies 3 Thirdly we aunswer that his note is not worth the noting being nothing at all to the purpose for the question in hand For first who knoweth not that in the Iewish Church the doctrine publiquely professed practised by their law did not appoinct or ratifie any of those vaine traditions but vtterly forbid them Wheras contrarily the very doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifieth the false worshiping of God by the inuentions of men Secondly those vaine traditions aforesaid were the personall sinnes of some particuler men in the Iewish Church not publiquely established by law nor generally receiued and practized in that Church * Luk. 1.5 6 8 9 10. 2.21 22 23 24 25 27.36 37 38 39 Mat. 15.7 8.4 and 15 2. Ioh. 10.34 Zachary and Elizabeth Simeon Anna Mary Ioseph and Christ himselfe and his Apostles with many others kept the ordinance of God giuen by the hande of Moses and obserued of that Church Neither did they ioyne or pollute them selues with that vaine worship aforesaid whereas in the church of England the false worship thereof deuised by men euen by that man of sinne is not the personall sinne of some particular men in it but is publikelie established by law and generally receyned and practised in these assemblies of all the members thereof So then this scripture maketh nothing for them but against them most notably Nowe whereas in the margent he wisheth the Reader to marke a contrarietie with our selues by comparing this and our 6. Reason together we also referre it to the Reader to iudge whether there be not euen an harmonie with this and a confirmation of it Hetherto of the defence of our second Reason H. IACOB his 2 Reply to the 2. Reason TO this your defence of your Second Reason I say you haue answer in your last Exceptiō pag. 22. You aske what Propositiō I doe deny I answer I distinguish your Aflumption as being a fallacie called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cōcluding a thing simply from that which is after a sort like vnto that Reason which I framed against you in Pag. 22. A man hath a woodden legg an eye of glasse c Therefore hee is no true man Cranmer Ridley c. held asmuch as wee after mens precepts Ergo they worshiped in vaine Geneua holdeth her wafer cakes in the Supper Ergo Geneua worshipeth God in vaine Euen so your Assumption runneth Our doctrine say you Pag. 35. appoincteth Gods worship by mens precepts This is false vnlesse you meane it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after a sort not simply For our doctrine appoincteth not all Gods worship by mens precepts nor the chiefest part of it as the preaching of the Gospell of life Sacramentes and Prayers c. So that it concludeth nothing in that sence Therefore here you play the false Sophister not the Christian and conscionable Disputer Thus you haue answer enough to this in the aunswer to your last Exception though you would not see it Further I noted Secondly * Pag. 35. That this your Scripture of Mat. 15. Yeeldeth the offenders to be of a visible Church with whom Christ did communicate though they held also traditions of men Therfore it affirmeth nothing against vs. Is not this true Why then doe you not admit it We neuer denyed but this Scripture condemned our corruptions But this onely wee affirme it disanulleth not our Churches Euen as Christ here condempned the Iewes corrupt traditions but hee meant not thereby to disanull their Church Therefore all this is not against our purpose but not ably for vs as is before obserued 1. Concerning your First aunswer in Pag. 36. I know this Scripture may be applyed against false worshippers which are no true Church But it proueth not I say all them to whom it may bee applyed to bee no true Church Therefore you abuse it against vs Except you had first proued vs no true Church nor Christians which yet is in question 2. Where in your Second answere * Pag. 37. you say That this helpeth vs not except we say that Christ communicated with the Pharisies in these traditions like as wee doe in the vaine traditions now For shame leaue this folly I say againe I seeke not to iustifie our partaking in our traditions but I renounce it in sobrietie asmuch as you yea better then you doe Yet I say this place shall admit those who doe in simplicitie partake of them to be true Christians neuerthelesse like as it admitteth the Iewes then 3. In your Third aunswer “ Pag. ibid. You deny that those Jewish traditions of wasshings c. were with them receiued generally or by Law in their Church Whereto I aunswer That they were generally receiued as Marke in his 7. Chapter and 3. verse doeth testifie and that they were rebuked who vsed them not which is sufficient to make it their Churches doctrine practize though no expresse law commaunded it But I suppose verse 5. where they say Why walkest thou not after the tradition of the Elders he meaneth the ordinances of their Forefathers which were to them as lawes besides the lawe of Moses What else is their Thalmud which is till this daye euen like to the Canon lawe of Poperie and the Alcoran of Turky Some also vnderstand this of the ordinances of the Elders that is their
they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * Notwithstanding they are too many already more as they are Thus they may see how they haue all this while ben deceiued and are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That euery error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from saluation in Christ Then should they condempne themselues vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfection which surely though I thinke they hold it not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condempning others so peremtorily that iump not euen with them in euery poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not a like Me thinkes then that they should affoard that fauour to others which they would haue others to offoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errours which they must acknowledge * Psal 19.12 1. Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite manie in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which euen common sence and humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their mindes I will a little turne my speech vnto them And I would pray them to call to minde the manie errors and corruptions which they beare with amonge themselues and lay them and the errors with vs togeather and they shall see their equalitie Some of you hold it vtterly and simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to proue a will take an administration or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes and Festiuall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these thinges altogeather lawfull and haue and doe put them in practise with manie other such like thinges which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would from hence note is this Can you among your selues beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inuentions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the †I would you knew the marks of the Beast a little better marks of the Beast * Reu. 14. which who soeuer receiueth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God and shal be tormented in Hell fier for euer And will not your stumackes serue you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in farr lesser matters What equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most parte so wholly giuen and bend your wits and mindes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to thē As you sildome or neuer look into your own estate or apply the scripturs to your selues But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may see thē by your own practize all errors are not alike But yet will some say Obiection are not all the scriptures and commaundements of God fundamentall and to be obeyed alike c. Answer Let such consider of this scripture 1. Cor. 3.12.15 amongst many other which plainly proueth that many errors so they be not of obstinacie may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus and yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in Pag. 88. Againe there are errors simply fundamentall which of their owne nature cleane abolish from Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists concerning Iustification by workes praying to and trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foūdation But that any one or all of the errors in the Churches of England are of this force as you would seeme to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to euery one of them You thereby ouerthrow the Martirs in Queene Maries dayes from being Christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministerie worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martirs saw no further Then you confesse against your selues that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you euery where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martirs Now if you would haue your Reasons hould you must proue the Churches of England all conuicted in cōscience which I hope you will not goe about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly Which is the Second note I desire to be obserued 3 Thirdly I would desire the Reader to obserue the wresting and misaplying of certen places of scripture which partly in this Treatise and also in other their wrytings they alleadge for their absolute and peremptory separation from the Churches of England which I haue thought not a misse here to sett downe that thereby the Reader and them selues vpon better consideration of the ende and scope of the holy Ghost in these places may see how they wrest and misapply them cleane contrary from the true and naturall sence thereof The scriptures which they alleadge for their separation are these Then the sonnes of God saw the daughters of men Gen. 6.2 Yee shall keepe therefore all mine ordinances and all my iudgments and doe them that the land whether I bring you to dwell therein spew you not out therefore shall ye bee holy vnto mee for I the Lord am holy and I haue separated you from other people that you should be mine Leu. 20.22.26 So the children of Israell which were come againe out of captiuitie and all such as had separated themselues vnto them from the filthines of the Heathen of the land to seeke the Lord God of Israell did eate c. Ezra 6.21 Departe departe yee goe out from thence and touch no vncleane thinge goe out of the middest of her be ye cleane that beare the vessels of the Lord Esa 52.11 Fly from the middest of Babell and departe out of the land of the Caldeans Ier. 50.8 And Fly out of the middest of Babell and deliuer euery man his soule from the fierce wrath of the Lorde Ier. 51.6.45 Come not yee to Gilgall neither goe ye vp to Bethauen Hos 4.15 Come to Bethell and transgresse and to Gilgall and multiply transgression c. Seeke not Bethellner enter into Gilgall and goe not to Beersheba Amos. 4.4.5 Saue your selues from this froward generation Act. 2.40 And when certen were hardned and disobeyed speaking euell of the way of god before the multitude
and thus we practise and wee are perswaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speake now concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publike Church state If yow say but there are diuers amongest vs that thinke otherwise I answere But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches howsoeuer one or two amongest hundreths or thousands may thinke otherwise shew the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must bee deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or two men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practize is an error Therefore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they doe I answere let it be so it is now * An error though not foundamētall the error of their iudgment as it was in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christe not a conuicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1. Cor. 3.12 15. truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in thē And this is all our questiō Whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 2. Excep COncerning our Second Exception it was propounded by way of demaund requiring that they would shewe vs if they held Jesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest King of his Church to be obeyed in his own ordinances onely and in no other howe then their practize agreeth with this profession One would haue thought that here it had bene good and needfull if they could to haue cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and the Testament of Christ and from thence to haue manifested that their Ministerie worship ministration gouernement c. which are called in questiō are no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament giuen and appointed therevnto And haue they not done this Surely no. What then doe they say First they tell vs That touching this poinct their profession and practize nowe is so as before time it was with M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their Cogregations But what of this Can the persons or age of thes whom he nameth nay can anie person or ages preiudice the trueth Were not they subiect to error at all or must their errors binde vs Did not Iohn Hus that worthy champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse euen to their dying day not seeing the abomin ations thereof And did not diuers of thē acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacie some 7. Sacramentes some Purgatorie some Auricular confession and such like greeuous errours c And yet notwithstanding dyed most constantly for the truethes which they sawe and testified some for one and some for another as God manifested the trueth vnto them As may be seene at large in their seueral Histories in the Actes and Monumentes whether wee referre the Reader But may we nowe so professe and practize in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errours a sufficient defence for vs yet thus would this man beare vs in hande But moreouer let him tell vs if Maister Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacie and functions they had before-time receyued And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had bene so earnest for the remnantes of Poperie in his time retayned Besides also who knoweth not that when Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. dyed Martyrs for the trueth of Christ they neither had them selues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacie and Manisterie nowe pleaded for And not that onely but were also members of that persecuted church in Queene Maries dayes which was separated from the rest of the Lande as from the world and ioyned in couenaunt by voluntarie profession to obey the trueth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did euen vnto death in the trueth which they sawe though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wantes and errors Yet who is so blinde or besotted as not to see that their errours may not bee our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for what so euer trueth God reuealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs should rise in iudgement against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath giuen vs his worde to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane these men to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoeuer Should not all people enquire at God or would they haue vs goe from the liuing to the dead From God and his worde to men and their errours Doubtlesse this is that whervnto they would bring vs and whereby they mislead their followers as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say they next Secondly they tell vs and they wishe it to bee noted as wee also doe That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely these say they are written the second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward gōuernement and ceremonies These they say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus they say they hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it In answere whereof First we aske what scripture they haue for this Secondly we alleadge against it the scriptures “ 1 Tim. 3.10 15. 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. cap 14.23 15. cap. and 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rō 12.6.7.8 Ephe 4 11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3 1 Cor. 4.17 5. cap. 9. cap 11. cap. 12. cap. 14. cap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6 1.6.2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18 15.16 17. 28.18.19.20 quoted in the margent wherevnto manie other might be added Thirdlie let it be obserued that them selues here graunt and can not denie but all the outwarde gouernement and ceremonies of their Church are inuented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not written in the worde of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned vnto in the worship of God as afterwards more fully will appeare Fourthlie see howe neare they are driuen that are glad to runne backe into the Papistes tentes where yet they knowe there is no succour Before they pleaded possession time out of minde nowe they tell vs of ordinances vnwritten c. are not these meere
vnto them Nay were they not therefore wholy to be separated from and left to the iudgement of God Num. 16. which ouertooke them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outward gouernement of the Church This may suffize to conuince the aduersaries vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer and Ridley c. is answered before For conclusion therefore this we adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as holde professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following They can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate trulie to holde Christ their Prophet Priest and King Towit The confusion of all sortes of people though neuer so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Chancellors Commissaries Officials Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars Vagrant and Mercinarie Preachers c. The entrance into the Ministerie by an other way and by other Lord then Iesus Christ The executing of it vnder those strange Lords leauing it at their pleasure The preaching of the word administration of the Sacramentes and gouerning of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings afore said according to the Popish Canons and constitutions The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls The confounding of Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authoritie in the Ministers of the Church The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Liturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes latine word for worde saue that a fewe of the grosest thinges are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collectes Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. Appointing holy dayes to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Marie Iohn Baptist Marke Luke and twelue Apostles seuerallie togeather with Fastes on the Eaues and on Ember dayes Fridayes Satterdayes Lent Prescribing the Ministers to pray ouer the dead ouer the Corne and Grasse at some seasons of the yeere and ouer Women at their Courching or purification Ioyninge them also to marie with the Ring which they make a sacramentall signe And to Baptise likewise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demanded of the infant that can not speake nor vnderstande Giuing power to Women to baptise And ordeyning that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they receyue their maker and with change of the wordes of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse booke translated into English c. Finallie the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods banishment and such like The assemblies I say and people which holde professe and practize as doeth this Church of Englande the abominations afore said concerning the outward order and gouernement of the Church what soeuer truethes they holde besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest and King in such constitution of a church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the word of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted churches of Christ this is the question betweene vs and our aduersaries 7. Lastlie let the godlie and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not followe vppon this answere in this place First that the a Contrarie to 1. Tim. 3.15 2. Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1. Corin. 4.6 Reu. 22.18 19 Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Secondlie that the b Contrarie to the 2. Tim. 3.17 with 1. Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.13 men of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fullie furnished to euery good worke Thidlie that c Contrarie to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1 2 3. Esay 32.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1. Cor. 11. and 12. and 14. Rom. 12.3 4 5 6 7 8. Mat. 28.20.1 Tim. 6.13 14. Christ him selfe in whom the treasures of wisedome and knowledge are hid yet was so foolishe carelesse and vnfaithfull as hauing an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it anie offices lawes and orders for the due gouerning and ordering thereof Finallie That the d Contrarie to the 2. Cor. 6.14 15 16. Psal 94.20 119.21.113.128 Reu. 9.1 2 3 and 14.9 10 11. Hierarchie Worship Sacramentes Traditions Canons and whatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outward orders and gouernement of the church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes owne ordinances O shameles impietie Doubtles this is that same strange passion and meere desperatnes wherewith afterwarde vniustlie they charge vs which we will not prosecute as it deserueth but exhort them onely to take heede least that woe come vppon them whiche is written Woe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darknes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter Woe vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esa 5.20.21 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 2. Except IN this your defence of your secōd Exception it pitieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and if we professe to obey him in his own ordinances and in no other I answered we doe constantly prosesse so and as we professe so wee practise But to make our profession practize in this poinct more manifest I noted how our stare meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and how hee is to be obeyed viz. That the written word ought of necessitie to shew vs our inward and meare spirituall beleif obedience As for the outward Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to bee appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no where forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication two thinges First it is foule wrong to our Churches and to my wordes to say as you doe That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it was neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangable by the Scriptures My expresse wordes and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our only and absolute King Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth
theirs did not And that I trust is sound Which thing also you might haue remembred if you had ben so charitable by that which I wrote in “ In the next treatise following of the cōparison of the Ministery with Mariage Ans to your first Reason another place Then in your first answer Pag. 14. Howe vainely doe yow aske vs for Scriptures to proue those orders seing I expresly called them errors The like in your Second wher you load vp Scriptures to disproue thē Also Thirdlie you charge an vnconscionable vntruth on mee if you meane this answere vnto me that I should graunt and cannot deny that all outward ceremonies and gouernement are arbitrary at mans pleasure I onelie said that our state holdeth that generall opinion Not that I my selfe held it If you meane them write to them and speake to them if you meane me you doe me foule iniurie Fourthly whether they are Popish shiftes or no let our state which mainteyneth these things answer you Your Fift is answered in the first poinct of my explication noted before pag. 19. To your Sixt in pag. 16. wee aunswered before in the Second poinct of my explication pag. 19. Your Seuenth in pag. 18. is also against the state of our Church and not against me Maister IOHNSONS 3. Exception against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same EXCEPTION 3. THirdlie let them shew by the Scriptures howe the 36. Article of their doctrine booke alleadged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The words of the Article are these as followeth The Booke of consecrating of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priestes and Deacons doth conteyne all thinges necessarie to such consecration and ordering neyther hath it any thing that of it selfe is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoeuer are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that booke we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Moreouer how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That Apocripha bookes and the booke of Homilies be read in the church by the Ministers diligentlie and distinctlie As is in Art 6. and 35. of that doctrine and booke aforesaid H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocripha bookes and Homelies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the whole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I answer you should haue said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Else the Argument followeth not But then we deny flatly the Antecedent or first part of the reason But your Reason you will say shall goe as you haue put it Then marke these reasons euen as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is white of his teeth therefore he is a white man A Swanne is black of his bill therefore a Swanne is black My brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a wodden legge therfore my brother is no true man F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 3. Excep OVr third Exception was this Whereas they referred vs to their booke of Artieles 1562. were quired that they should shew by the Scriptures how the 36. Article there mentioned which is of the booke of consecrating Archbiships and Bishops and of ordeyning Priests and Deacons And howe also the 6. and 35. Articles of that booke enioyning the Apocripha bookes and Homilies to bee read in the Church by the Ministers distinctlie and diligentlie Howe these J say doe agree with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitis Now I pray you haue they shewed vs these things by the Scriptures as we desired nothing lesse First therefore marke this heere and euerie where also in their reasons and answeres that though wee call neuer so much to them for proofe and euidence from the Scriptures yet they neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shiftes deuices of their owne As if our consciences were to be built vpon their fancies and not vppon the written worde of God But what doe they say to our demaund First they tell vs These thinges doe not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Secondly they graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as blacke doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this their similitudes doe import Nowe whereas they alleadge That these thinges destroy not true Christianitie We answere That euen that Hyerarchie worship constitution and gouernement which they professe and practize as appeareth by those and other their Articles and iniunctions in our former answere alleadged to which yet we haue receyued no aunswere being directly Antichristian doe * Nota vtterlie destroy true Christianitie so as the people and Churches so professing and practizing can not in that estate by the worde of God be iudged true Christians or the true constituted Churches of Christ. And touchinge the similitudes here vsed besides that which we haue noted before we adde moreouer that they are not against vs but against them selues in asmuch as comparing the doctrines of the Gospell which they professe with the whitenes of an Aethiopians teeth And their Antichristian Ministerie Worshop courtes and confusion of people with the blackenes of an Aethiopians body This and such like similitudes doe fitlie declare their estate And the approouing of the black constitution of their church Assemblies by some white doctrines of the Gospell which they professe Is euen as if they should reason thus An Aethiopian is white of his teeth therefore he is a white man A blacke Rauen is white of his bill Therefore a blacke Rauen is a white bird H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 3. Exception YOur Third Exception is That the 16. Article of cōsecrating Bishops Priests and the 6. and 35. Artic of Apocripha and Homelies doe not agree with the Gospel What then Ergo our Churches profession and practize differ Most false For our Churches doe professe that these things doe agree with Gospell well enough Also their practise is thereafter Or doe you conclude Ergo our Churches holde not Christ to saluation In deede so I tooke your purpose at the first but nowe in plaine categoricall termes you auouch it That these things being directlie Antichristian doe vtterlie destroy true Christianitie So then Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. were verie Antichristes and no true Christians As before also I trowe you affirmed Surely this grosse and wicked absurditie I could not open better then by this similitude This man hath a wodden legge an eye of glasse his nose deformed adde if you will both his armes not naturall but framed to him of wood or what you will Ergo this is no true man Yes Sir for all this he is a true man For as much as all this concernes not the verie life and being of a man though
he sayth We sinned against the Third commaundement in the application of the scriptures aforesaid That is their owne common custome and lamentable sinne to breake the Third commaundement in taking the name of God in vaine not onely by falsifying and peruerting the scriptures but also by their Ministration of the Word Sacramentes and Gouernment of the Church by vertue of such offices and callings as Christ neuer appointed in his worde therevnto but were first deuised and still are reteyned by Antichrist that sonne of perdition Hitherto of his answere concerning the proofe of our Proposition To the proofe of our Assumption he “ Marke this his sounde and Scholerlike dâ—alinge in this place and afterwards answereth not a worde which yet most of all required answere if he would in deede soundlie defende their estate as he pretendeth That their profession and practise ioyneth Christ Antichrist togeather we shewed in pag. 28 c. by their Articles Canons Iniunctions Aduertisements c. published at sundry times by their present Ministerie Worship and Church-gouernement according therevnto If this be not so why bringes he not warraunt for these particulers from the Testament of Christ and so take away the proofe of our Asumption Jf this be so as by his silence he graunteth and wee are sure he cannot shew the contrarie by the Scriptures then our Assumption standeth firme and consequently in this constitution they cannot be accounted true Christians nor their Assemblies so gathered true constituted Churches H. JACOB his 2. Reply vnto the 1. Reason 1 IN this your defence of your first Reason you would first of all fasten on me a contradiction for gráunting that our Church corruptions are from Antichrist which against your Second Exception J said wee holde to be Christs owne viz. Because we hold Christ hath giuen his Church that libertie to deuise them Alas it pittieth mee to see your simplicitie or it greueth me for your malice who could not see that there I spake in the person of our whole Church and state See Pag. 12. 18. 19. and shewed what they held And here I speake as I thought my selfe This is a silly contradiction 2. Then you say Pag. 25. I dazell the peoples eyes in saying some outward orders and ceremoines are from Antichrist as if they were but a few and of small moment Therefore you are content to recken them vp full tediously God knoweth euen 91. in number numero Deus impare gaudet And what of all these will you saye therefore That whosoeuer holdeth these cannot holde Christ vnto saluation And so Mr. Cranmer and the rest of the Martirs were damned But if not Then I saye againe These some these 91. are too few and too slight and of too small momeÌ„t of them selues and of their owne nature to abolishe vs from Christ This ought you to haue proued which you neuer doe but still your speech is most false and not vnproper onely that wee ioyne Christ and Antichrist togeather As in the maimed maÌ„ before * Pag. 25. noted there is not life death ioyned togeather but liuing things and dead things are and yet the man aliue and a true man 3. Then “ 2 cor 14. c Eze. 43.8 â— King 17.33 34 40 41. you will iustify your applying the scriptures which I said were mismatched were meant against the Idolatry of the First commandment not against the Idolatry of the Second only and meerelie as our Church orders in question are Therefore these scriptures cannot inferre any abolishing from Christ by simple holding of the corruptions in our Church which they doe proue by the simple holding of those Heathenish Idolatries whereof they speake To this you reply in Foure points 1 Jf these places bee meant of Heathenish Idolatry which could neuer stand with Gods truth togeather Yet they forbid all other corruptions against the Second commaundement also That I neuer denyed to be true after a sort These places indeed doe forbid the breach of the Second coÌ„maundement but not principally directly and of purpose nor in that measure or fulnes But their immediat purpose is against the Heathenish Idolatry breaking the First commaundement So that they forbid the breach of the Second commaundemeÌ„t consequently and proportionatly but not in that full manner as they doe the First They forbid the First so as that they shew there is no communion with God whilst men ioyne in such Idolaty they simply forbid the Second but deny not al communion with God to whom soeuer erreth therein 2 To your SecoÌ„d Reply I say make much of it for my parte I neuer thought other but our church corruptions are against the Second commaundement your second scripture here applied is of Saul I. Sam. 1â— a presumptuous and wilfull offendour if you make our whole Churches so your sinne is the greater 3 Thirdlie if you meane anie of Antichristes Idolatrie and false worship and namelie this in question the outward corrupt orders and ceremonies onely and no more doeth abolish vs from Christ and that this can not stande togeather with true faith like as the Pagans idolatrie against the First commaundement can not Then I denie it vtterlie you haue no proofe in the world for it And this inwrappeth Master Cranmer Ridley c. in the same course Your excuse here pag. 29. That Cranmer Ridley c. forsooke all the corruptions they sawe This belongeth to manie Thousands in England nowe no lesse then to them yea surelie there are infinite that knowe not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignoraunt of redemption by Christ c. Yea your selfe Maister Iohnson though a man of learning yea knowing our corruptions and misliking them a long time before you forsooke vs yet I thinke you stood not abolished from Christ all that while I pray bee so good to poore men as you may yea to vs nowe also aswell as to your selfe and them in those times Where you say pag. 29. That since that time we are conuicted by the scriptures If you meane some fewe that here and there you could pick out and doe sinne still speake to them threaten them throwe out your damnatorie sentence against them But smite not all whosoeuer comes neare you Beware howe you iudge least you be iudged The heart belongeth to God therefore censure not euerie mans conscience too hastilie 4 Fourthlie you would prooue in your Third Exception before noted pag. 29. That both the breach of the First commaundement and of the Second also is forbidden I haue tolde you before pag. 32 33. howe it is true and howe not Nothing at all to serue your turne That which you say pag. 30. touching your first scripture 2. Cor. 6.14 2 Cor. 6.14 c. in that sence and maner as I suide is true and not otherwise That which of your Second scripture Ezek. 43.8 pag. ibid. you say Ezek. 43. â— Who seeth not but it speaketh
directlie of the breach of the Second Commaundment ioyning togeather in the worship of the true God their inueÌ„tions with Gods ordinances I say it is most manifest that he speaketh not of the breach of the Second Commandement onely but also of the first wherein men haue their inuentions also The Prophet sheweth vers 4. and 7. That God returned to his Temple againe whence he was departed for the abominable idolatries that had ben there committed before to shew that he would restore lerusalem and the Temple and worship of God againet He meaneth this literally of the returning of the Iewes after Babilons captiuitie and of the reedifying of the Temple and the appointing againe of Gods holy worship there Also spirituallie he may meane the erecting of the Christian Church wheÌ„ they should not fal to such impieties as the Iewes had done nowe in that time before for the which he had departed away from them Nowe if we aske what were those Idolatours in Ierusalem and in the Temple before Ezekiels time for the whiche the Lord forsooke them it is manifest in Ahas in Manasses and Amon and in the Kings after Iosiah That the Iewes idolatrie was verie Heathenish not onely against the Second but against the First Commandement also in ioyning the Heathen gods with the true God of Izraell in their Diuine seruice and worship Therefore this place of Ezekiell is as I say Not of the breach of the Second commandment onely simplie as our church corruptions are but ioinctlie touching the breach of the First also The verie same is that your Third scripture pag. 30. 2 Kings 17 33 34 40 41 of the Samaritans Idolatrie â— King 17. wherein because you are large I will deferr to explaine it till your Sixt Reason following where is a proper place for it 4 Lastlie in pag. 31. you agrauate the breach of the Second Commandment as being spirituall whordome c. But I would haue you to know Things may be mismatched too cruelly as well as too gentlie There is a sinne both wayes when things are not called by their proper and right names Is it true in some sence euery breach of the Second Commandement is spirituall whordome as euery wanton word euery light gesture and countenance euery immodest thought in a Woman is Adulterie yet who so shall angerlie and continuallie so call a woman whore harlot or baude that but thinketh or looketh or speaketh too vainly shall doe her great wronge and inâ—â—â—â—e the iust daunger of lawe Neither can shee nor ought shee in such case be diuorced as an Adulteresse ought And thus it appeareth 〈◊〉 still that you sinne again stabe Third Commaundment in misapplying of scriptures In the ende in pag. 31. where you saye To the proofe of your Assumption I answere neuer a worde which most of all required answere This I tell you that it is your fancie and not my meaning heere to answere to your Proposition First and then to your Assumption to say nothing Nay if you had not dreamed you might easilie haue perceyued that all my first wordes viz. where I say your speech here is vnproper c. are bent directly against your Assumption and the proofe thereof although at this time I expressed not those termes Secondly I shewe that your scriptures applyed to proue the Proposition are altogither vnfitt and intollerably abused if you meane them in that sence as your Assumption must be meant that is to say as they touch vs. This a verie childe might haue seene Maister Iohnson So that your marginall scoffe at my sound and schollerlike dealing doeth light on your self and bewrayeth eyther your deepe skill or your ouerflowing charitic As for the rest That I should iustifie our corruptions it is no part of my minde neither belongs it to our present cause so to doe Maister IOHNSONS II. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON II. THat which appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine That cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proued That which appointeth and ratifieth the worshiping of God by the precepts of man That appoincteth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 compared with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Article of the booke alleaged And by their booke of CoÌ„mon prayer their Fastes Feastes Holy dayes c which are executed by their Popish Courts and Officers All which are authorized by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by lawe in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. JACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifieth the worshiping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third ExceptioÌ„ Pag 22. 2 Also noâ—e I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were theÌ„ of the true visible †Marke his open contrarietie with him self graunting this in Reas 6. Church with whom Christ and his Apostles both in Christes time and after his death did sometimes ioyne and comunicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 2. Reason OVr Second Reason is as you see now what proposition doth he deny Truely none at all What defence bringeth he of their booke of coÌ„mon prayers and the particulers therein Of their Prelacie other Ministerie receiued from them according to their booke and Pontificall Of their Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none What then doth he answere Forsooth he referred vs to his anuswer before in the last exception Whether also we referre the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for aunswer of anie proposition of this argument or for defence of their false worship Praelacie Ministerie and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answere And haue not these men thinke you good proofe for their present estate and Church constitution Which thus leaue it altogeather without defence euen when it most needeth and as it were beg geth their help and succor if they could affoard it anie But now hauing no aunswer to any parte of our argument yet hee bids vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alleaged is verified of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs time and after his death
present Gouernours and then doubtlesse it was lawe And though Zachary Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ and his Apostles did not actuallie ioyne in these corruptions yet they were generall no doubt and by lawe neuer the lesse and a number of the Iewes simply vsed them yet fell not from God as †The Sixe waterpots of the Iewishe purifyings Iohn 2.6 Therefore your Replies here are most vaine and false Lastlie in pag. 37. you will not confesse your contrarietie that is to saye betweene this your Second Reason and certen wordes in your Sixt Reason But the greater is your sinne to doe euill and defende it too Here in this Reason pag. 35. you would haue this scripture Mat. 15. to be meant against such vaine worshippers that they become heereby no true Church Or els what doe you vrge it against vs But in your Sixt Reason following you say That the Iewes euen nowe when these words were applyed to them were the true worshippers of God Are not these contrarie I pray you then reconcile them Maister IOHNSONS III. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON III. IF the whole doctrine as it is publiquely professed and practized by law in Englande be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that togeather with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Gouernement of the Church deuised by man euen the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holy ordinance and appointment of God himselfe to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie worship and gouernement aforesaid neuer was so but is mans deuice in religion euen Antichrist that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ. The Assumption is proued Gal. 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that helde not onely such truethes of the Gospell as are in that booke of Articles but more then those Yet if they should with all submitt vnto circumcision he sayth they were abolished from Christ Christ would prosit them nothing H. IACOB his I. Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuelie to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our English holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But A Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We answer We denie the Assumption Galatians were then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If he obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ That is in deed some amongst them as helde Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutelie to saluation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3.4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 iustification was by the morall workes of the law Nowe the Churches of Galatia generallie were not such but held the sauing faith sound doubtles though manie amongest them were tainted with that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that were crept in and too well interteyned among them Howbeit with the Church Communion was kept And therefore so with vs you ought to deale If you say we are worse Christians then those grofest Galatians It is vtterlie false proue it if you can and it must drawe in Maister Cranmer c. with vs also If you say there are manie amongst vs as bad or worse then those worst Galatians you may say it but proue it you cannot Also if it were so yet this disagraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath bin said of the Galatians F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 3. Reason TO this our Third Reason His First answer is That he denyeth the Assumption which is asmuch in plaine termes as if he had giuen the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2 3 4. As in the proofe of the Assumption we shewed before But for the more euidence of the trueth we will set downe the proofe of the Assumption in a Sillogisme thus If a Galatian submitt to Circumcision though he hold all the truthes of the Gospell professed in England withall yet be notwithstandinge abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian. But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter Next he answereth That the Galatians were then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal. 1.3 Therefore sayeth he this reason is nought But he may not thus runne away with the matter and deceyue himselfe and his simple fauourers The question is not whether anie Galatians were true Christians or any of their Assemblies true churches For who euer doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truethes of the Gospell nowe professed in Englande and withall submit to Circumcision were in that estate a true christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those assemblies then in that case were by Gods worde to be deemed the true churches of Christ. The Apostle testifieth and saith no This man saith yea Nowe whether of these two we shall beleeue let all men iudge But what is it then that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true churches Gal. 1.2 This man sheweth the reason him selfe the light of the trueth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians sayth he that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed say we of such onely is the suppositiō made in the case afore said But the churches of Galatia sayth he generally were not such but held the sauing faith sound which also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ Iesus and therefore though there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes amongest them which is the “ 1 Cor. 11.19 Actes 20.30 lott and triall of the true churches of God in all ages yet was there not cause to breake the Communion with those assemblies but to proceed with them in the faith and order of Christ and to * Gal. 5.12 1 Cor. 5.7 11 13. cutt off and cast out such troublesome leauen from amongst thē Now this being duely weighed it is nothing for but altogeather against the hauing of communion with the assemblies of this Lande which are not set in the way and order of Iesus Christ as were those churches of Galatia but in the Apostasie and confusion of Antichrist as hath ben at large declared before in the defence of the former Reasons where also that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered H. IACOB his II. Reply to the 3. Reason TO this your Defence of your Third Reason I answer First it is too impudent a cauillation That you charge me to giue the H. Ghost the lye in denying your Assumption I meant
deceiptfull and sophisticall Therefore I must distinguish euen so still as I did before and my distinction is good cleerelie discouering all your fraude What say you against it First you say Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed aswell as the rest of their worship seruice Aswell Forsooth I trow not that is not as much Their inwarde impietie and false faith against Christ the onely all-sufficient Sauiour is farre more accursed and diuelish then their bare outward orders separated from the rest of their faith But whosoeuer ioyneth simply and indifferently either to Thukish or Popish Assemblies doeth ioyne with their whole and worst abominations which haue no communion or coherence with Christ in deede Neither can we also if we ioyne therein The case is not like when we reteyne and vse some of their outwarde orders in our Assemblies And here you note that I graunt Some thinge may be ioyned vnto our Christian faith in England which would vtterly destroy it Most true And here I note your most vncristian and false dealing with me in affirming otherwise of me As I haue expressed in the beginning about the taking of my First maine Proposition there Which see further in pag. 4. Lastlie my reference to the answere of your First Reason is a fit and full Refutation of you here Neither is your Defence any thing against it as there appeareth Also this your Reason includeth Maister Cranmer Ridley c. to be no true Christians neither as hath bene often alleadged Maister IOHNSONS V. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON V. AS the golden vessels taken out of the Lords house and had vsed in Babilon of the Caldeans did not therefore make the Babilonians true Iewes touching the faith Nor their banquets wherin they vsed them to be anie of the Lords Feastes spoken of Leuit. 23. but they still remayned Babilonish people and banquets notwithstanding So the truthes of the Gospell vessels as it were of the Lords house holden and receyued in the spirituall Babilon whereof that other was a type doe not make the people so standing to be true Christians Neither their Ministery and constitution to be Christes appoincted in his Testament But they still remaine the people Ministery and constitution of Babilon notwithstanding See the proofes hereof in Dan. 5.1 2 3 4. compared with Prou. 9.17 18. and Reuel 17.4 5. and 18.4 with 14.8 9 10.11 H. JACOB his 1. Replie to the 5. Reason Your Reason is this THe materiall vessells of Ierusalem were of the like power and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babilonians As the holy christian doctrines in that Booke are to sanctifie vs that holde togeather with them some Popish ceremonies and orders as indifferent things But those vessells were not sufficient to sanctifie those Babilonians Ergo Neither these truthes of the Gospell can sanctifie vs. An absurd comparison The Proposition is most false and so the scriptures quoted Dau. 5.1 2 3 4. compared with Pro. 9.17 18. Rom. 17.4 5. and 18.4 with 14.8 9 10 11. are as idely and vainely applied See the Answere to the allegations in the First Reason before F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 5. Reason THis he sayth is an absurd comparison So belike if his graue iudgment might goe for good payment the manifold allusions which in describing the spirituall Babilon the Spirit of God “ Reu. 17.18 and 15. compared with Iere. 50.51 Cap. Isay 13. 14. and 21. 47. maketh to-the materiall Babilō of the Caldeans were to bee accompted absurd allusions and comparisons As also the often alluding and likening togeather the * Isa 66.20.21 Zach. 14.20.21 1 Cor. 5.7.8 and 10.2 3 4. Col. 2.1.12 He. 13.15 16.1 Pet. 3.20.21 Reu. 15.3 and 21.20 c. holy things of the Lawe with the holy thinges of the Gospell and the “ 2. Tim. 3.8.9.1 Cor. 10.6 c. Heb. 12 16.17 Iude vers 11. Reu. 2.14.20 and 20.8 9. transgressions then with the transgressions now which are so often vsed in the Scripture Are in his account absurd allusions and similitudes Secondlie he sayth the Proposition is most false Which we answer is most true and most plainely taught and declared in the fift of Daniels prophesie vers 1 2 3 4. and Leuit. 23. as we alleadged before when we first propounded the reason Wherevnto we yet haue receyued no aunswere So soundly he defendeth his cause Thirdly he saith The scriptures quoted Dan. 5.1 2 3 4. compared with Pro. 9.17 18. Reuel 17.4 5 18 4. and 14 8 9 10 11. are idely and vainely applyed But howe shewes he this to be so as he saith Verie profondlie I warrant you For he bids vs see the answere to the allegations in the First Reason And this is all the proofe he bringes Well wee haue seene his answere to the allegations there and finde First that those scriptures here alleadged are not so much as once mencioned there Secondlie that his answere to the allegations there set downe is most friuoulous and of no weight but against him selfe as there we haue declared Lastlie in his propounding of our Reason otherwise then we had done which in deede is a thing verie ordinarie though nothing commendable in them it seemeth that being not able to answer anie parte of our Reason as we had set it downe yet he thought to helpe him self by this exception that the Materiall vessells of Ierusalem were not of the like power and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babilonians as the true doctrines receyued among the spirituall Babilonians are to sanctifie them But hee shall finde if he will consider and compare togeather the Scriptures heere alleadged that the golden vessells being holy to the Lorde and taken out of his Temple did asmuch sanctifie the Caldean Babilonians and their Feastes As the holy doctrines vessels as it were of the Lordes Temple had among the spirituall Babilonians doe sanctifie them and their constitution That is neither of their Estates and Assemblies are sanctified thereby at all For saith not the Lorde “ Eze. 43.8 That the setting of mens postes and thresholds howe much more of Babilons enormities by his Postes Thresholdes that is by his truthes and ordinances is so farre from sanctifying as it defileth his holy Name yea is abomination in his fight and setteth a wall betweene him and them that doe it Saith not the scripture also †Prou. 9.17 18. 20.17 that the true doctrines in the false church are amonge them as stollen waters and hid bread which though they be sweete pleasaunt yet there also is the mouth filled with grauell and the guestes of those feastes and assemblies are so farre frō being sanctified by those truthes in that estate as they are before God euen dead men and in the deapth of hell To conclude this poinct hath not an Angell from heauen proclaimed it with a loude voice that “ Reu. 18 1 2
of Mariage and of meates if they had done no worse doeth not make them departers from the faith that is not “ Or not fundamētally not simply which words I think fitter to bee here vsed as in my next Reply is further declared totally No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies simply Neither doe these thinges make vs the Protestants to be such The Papistes fall from Christ “ That is fundamentally simply see in the 2. Answer following wholy in other poincts namely 1. The Papall supreamacy 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes Which blessed bee God wee are farre from Therfore the Apostle in saying They departed from the faith meaneth in * Viz. in abstayning from Mariage and meates these poincts they erred or departed from the faith but not absolutlie wholie 2. Further more touching your Proposition if you vnderstand Paul of Martion the Haeretike and Tatianus who did absolutly condemne Marriage and certen meates they euen therein might wholie fall from the faith I meane somewhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of Pag. 49. 57. namely for hauing their cōsciences conuicted and seared with a whot iron And thus are they in no comparison with vs of England nor with the Papistes neither if they had erred in nothing else F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 7. Reason HEre the aduersarie being not able with any colour to denie the consequēt of our Reasō neither to iustifie their present Ministerie worship Cannons Articles Iniunctions c. which yet he must doe still we call for it if he will iustifie their present estate yet being desperate sure for els he would neuer haue done it he feareth not to gainesay the Assumption that is the very wordes and testimonie of the scripture it selfe 1. Tim. 4.1 2 3. The Apostle sayth that they which forbidde Mariage Meates are departers from the faith This man sayth no. Nowe whether of these shall we beleeue But what colour hath this man for his deniall Forsooth this That they which doe so doe not departe from the faith totally and that the Apostles meaning is that in these poincts they departe from the faith but not absolutely and wholy So by this mans conceite none may be accounted departers from the faith that depart only in some poinctes but they which doe it totally from all And thus then may no heretikes or Antichristes that euer haue bene or shal be in the worlde be iudged departers frō the faith because they departe from it but in some poinctes and not absolutely from all Thus in one word hath he iustified at once the Arians Nestorians Sabellians Papistes Familistes Anabaptistes and whom not because they departe but in some not wholy from all poinctes of faith Js it not great pitie that Antichrist hath so long wanted this stour Champion that can thus in one worde iustifie his forbidding of meates and mariage yea and his most detestable Hyerarchie and superstitions Nowe by this mans learning all the Martirs writers heretofore that by euidence of this scripture cōuicted the Synagogues of Antichrist to haue departed from the faith and therefore separated from them were vtterly deceyued Nay and the Apostles them selues were wholy mistaken when speaking of Antichristes church and Religion they call it a * 2. Thes 2.7 misterie of iniquitie “ 1. Tim. 4.2 speaking lies through hypocrisie “ 2. Pet. 2.1 priuely bringing in damnable heresies and hauing a * Tim. 3.4 shewe of godlines but denying the power thereof And Johns eyes also it seemeth were not matches when he saith †Reue. 17.5 he sawe in the whores forehead that is in Antichristes church and Religion a name written A mysterie great Babylon the mother of whoredomes and abhominations of the earth For we would knowe of this deepe Clerke howe Antichristes church and religion should iustlie be accounted a mysterie of iniquitie and truely be saide to speake Lies in hypocrisie also priuely to bring in Damnable heresies and to haue a Shew of godlines if they did absolutely wholy departe from the faith and not onely from some pointes thereof But ouer and aboue all it seemeth by this reason that not onely the Apostles were mistaken in giuing vs sure markes howe to knowe false teachers and false religions 1 Tim. 1.2 3. 2 Pet. 2.1 2 Thes 2.7 2 Tim. 3.4 Reuel 17.5 But also Christ him selfe when he saide “ Mat. 7.15 Beware of false Prophetes which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardlie are rauening wolues And againe * Mat. 2.23.24 Jf any shall say vnto you Loe here is Christ or there beleue it not For there shall arise false christes and false prophets and shall shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceyue the very elect Nowe if they should totally departe from the faith what sheepes clothing J pray you should they haue to come in Or howe should either them selues be said to come in the name of Christ affirming their Religion to be Christes and shewing signes and wonders to drawe men therevnto Or the elect to be in such vnspeakeable daunger to be deceyued by them This might suffice to shewe the falsehood and impietie of his answere But we will note a fewe things moe therein It being graunted him that the popish forbidding of mariage and meates if they were not worse doeth not make them departers from the faith totally yet let him tell vs if holding neuer so manie truthes besides “ See in Bales Votaries Acts and monumēts c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage and what superstitiō the forbidding of meates hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichrist yet forbidding these they could by the word of God truely be saide in that estate * What man fearing God durst once opē his mouth for such Diuelilh doctrines and estate to holde the faith of Christ and to be true Christians If they could not as the Apostle testifieth then is this answere in this respect also nothing to the purpose but against him selfe both for the popish forbidding of meates and marriages and for the English Hyerarchie and other abominations amongst them receyued from the Papistes which vnder colour of this answere heere he would defend Againe where he saith That the Papistes fall frō Christ in other poinctes besides the aforesaid Namely 1 The Papall supremacie 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes which Englande nowe is farre from Let him tell vs First whether in this sence the Papistes can for these be said to departe from the faith totally If they can not then what weight is there in this for defence of their estate that the Papistes could not also alleadge for them selues to witt that in these poinctes they departe from the faith but not absolutely and wholy Secondly let him tell vs whether there are not other poinctes but these three in the
papistes religion which make them in their estate to be departers frō the faith and consequentlie false christians and false Churches If there be as he can not denie it then of what weight is his answer to defende the present constitution of these people and assemblies for whom he pleadeth seeing there are diuers other thinges besides these that doe and may cause that they may not be deemed true Christiās or true Churches in that estate Many a Seruetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore haue and at this day doe reiect these three aforesaid are they therfore in their estate to be accounted true Christians or true Churches So then his manner of reasoning heere for their defence is as if the Adulterers to iustifie their course of life should alleadge thus We are noe 1. Blaspemers 2. no Persecutors 3. No Murtherers as such and such are therefore we departe not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in But the scripture teacheth otherwise sayinge b Iam. 2.10.11 Whosoeuer shall keepe the whole Lawe and yet fayleth in one poincte is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Nowe though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lawe and contrariwise So that what soeuer sinnes the Adulterer be farre from yet as c Pro. 6.32 Salomon saith Hee that committeth adulterie with a woman fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers likewise who what so euer sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a d Num. 15.39 whoring after their owne inuentions e Pro. 5.20 embracing the bosomes of strange women f Reuel 17.4 drinking of their cup of fornications Thirdly let him shewe vs sufficient warrant frō the scriptures why setting these three aside the other popish Hyerarchie and abominations receyued amongst them can not bee iudged to make them in such estate departers from the faith and therfore false Christians and false Churches whatsoeuer truthes they should hold beside If he cannot as who seeth not that it can not be donne then by this also it appeareth that his answer◠here is of no force for defence of their estate but against it as we haue declared before g Num. 16.12 c. Corah Dathan Abyram and their partakers were farre from the Abominations of the Heathen they helde also al the poinctes of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onely from them and departing only from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof also they h verse the. 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded yet will he not denie we suppose but that they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If he should the scripture it selfe would witnesse against him herein Numb 16.26 Nowe compare case with case and tyme with tyme and the estate of these people and Assemblies of England wil bee found farre more grieuous as we haue already shewed both in the defence of our Second Exception before and in i In the answer to Master Hildersam and in the 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assembties other Treatises to which yet we haue receiued no answer To conclude this poinct if their Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so longe as they reteyne that poysonfull leauen of their Hyerarchie and worship wee must tell them as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That “ 2. Kings 4.39.40 a litle poyson bringeth death vnto the whole pot of pottage A * 1. Cor. 5.6 litle leauen leaueneth the whole lump And a “ Eccle. 10.1 few dead flyes cause the oynctment of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed their abominations are not a few but swarme in aboundance amongst them some whereof wee haue rehearsed before in the defence of our First Reason where the Reader may take a view of them Now in the next place fearing belike that the euidence of the scripture we alleadged could not by these shiftes of his be auoyded but that still the reason deducted from thence stood strong against them as we haue shewed it doeth therefore he would haue vs now passe by them and not apply this scripture to them Nota. or their mother Church of Rome but vnderstand it of Martion the heretike and Tatianus of whom he saith that they absolutelie condemning mariage and certen meates might indeed euen therin wholie fall from the faith somewhat like to Baalam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for hauing their consciences conuicted and seared with an whote iron And thus sayth he are they in no comparison with them of England Well But first if his former answer were of any weight it might be asked why then the followers of Martion and Tatianus might not likewise haue defended them thus said that their departure from the faith was but in some poincts not wholy from all Secondly we answer that if this scripture was verified as he graunteth in Martion and Tatianus for their condemning of mariage and meates then we must needes also thinke it verified in the Romishe whoore and her apostate children whiche are falne into the verie sinnes that are heere mentioned Teh Apostle mentioneth Martion and Tatianus no more then he doeth the whoorish Babilon and the children of her Fornication but comprehendeth heere all such who so euer they be as shall fall into this Apostasie Nowe moreouer if the “ 1. Tim. 4.1 2 3. wordes of this scripture be duely weighed either other scriptures or the estate of the Romish Harlott and her children compared therewith it wil be founde as liuely to describe these as either Martion or any other that euer were in the world First when the Apostle sayeth that this shal be in the latter tymes who seeth not that it doeth most directly poinct at the Romish whoore though we doubt not but Martion also and Tatianus which liued twelue hundreth yeares since or thereabouts may also be comprehended therein Secondly when it is saide they shall departe from the faith thereby signifying that once they held the faith howe plaine is this of the Romish harlot which in the “ Rom. 1.7 Apostles time was the beloued spouse of God and since is falne into Apostacy and become the Mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth as the * 2. Thes 2.3 and Reu. 17.1 2 3 4 5. scriptures in other places witnesseth Thirdly whē it is said they shall giue heede to spirits of errour and doctrines of Deuils how fitly agreeth this to the Romish Babilon which as the scripture els “ Reu. 18.2 where testifieth is become the habitation of Deuils
and the hold of all foule spirits Fourthly when it is said they shall speake lies through hypocrisie not to recken vp the infinite particulars that might be alleadged for proof hereof how fitly doth this describe the Religion and practise of the man of sinne the Romish Antichrist which the scripture * 2. Thes 2.7 els where calleth a mistery of iniquitie as pretending to be with and for Christ and to draw men vnto him when indeed it is opposed against and exalted aboue the Lord Iesus Christ and all his holy ordinances Fiftly when it is said they shall haue their consciences seared with an whote iron how true is this found vpon the throane of the Beast his Kingdome concerning which the scripture also testifieth in “ Reu. 16.10.11 another place that when the vials of Gods wrath shal be powred out vpon them and they conuinced of their impieties and obominations they shal be so farre from acknowledging and forsaking thē as they shal gnaw their tōgues for sorrow rather thē they wil forsak their wickednes shall * Let their raylinges slaunders edictes articles iniunctions finallie their continuall oppositions and madnes against the truth and people of God be witnesses of all this fight against God and his truth blaspheaming the God of heauen for their paines for their sores not repenting of their workes Lo here a seared conscience in the beastes kingdome Finally when the Spirit of God here giueth two particular instances of his apostacie 1. The forbidding of Mariage 2. And the cōmaunding to abstaine from meates which God hath created to be receiued with thankesgiuing How directly doeth he in both these as it were with the finger poinct at the Romish Babilon and her daughters Jn the one that is the forbidding of mariage when as the Romish Babilon forbiddeth it to Priests Friers Nunnes and such like and the English her daughter to fellowes of Colleges and prentises and both of them to all men and women in Lent Aduent Rogation weeke c. Jn the other that is the forbidding of meates created of God to bee receiued with thankesgiuing when as both of them commaund to abstaine from flesh on their saincts eues Emberdayes Lent Fridayes and Satterdayes throughout the yeare Thus then we haue shewed that this scripture which hee would turne ouer to Martion and Tatianus doth most fitly agree vnto and most plainly describe the Romish Apostacy whether wee apply it to their present estate or compare this and other scriptures togeather speaking of the same Apostacy and defection By this also which hath bone said it may appeare that as he saith of Martion and Tatianus that they might be said wholy to fall from the faith somewhat like to Balaam Iudas and those apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for hauing their consciences conuicted and seared with an whot iron So also it is verified and may be said of the Romish Babilon and her daughters Touching which poinct of their conuicted consciences as also of the Apostate Israelites in particuler compared with them of Englande see moreouer what is saide before in defence of the sixt Reason at the end thereof Now if seeing the euidence of this “ 1 Tim. 4.1 2 3. scripture so full plaine against them as hath bene declared he would except that so it is in the Romish Church but not in theirs of Englande First by this meanes he would ouerthrowe his owne answere here which hath denied it of the popish forbidding of meates and marriages and would turne it ouer from them to Martion and Tatianus Secondly this would not hinder but that the consequent of our Proposition and the Assumption also were good and therefore the Argument strong and of force Thirdly the particulars before mentioned being founde in their Church of Englande will testifie it also to be verified of them Lastlie although many of the abominations of the whoores cup of Babilon be nowe cast out of England for which also we prayse God yet so long as they reteyne the Hyerarchie Reue. 17.1 2 3 4 5. Stinted Leyturgie confusion of people Canons Excommunications c. deriued vnto them from that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth wee must needes beleeue and alleadge against them the scripture and common prouerbe which sayth Ezek. 16.44 As is the Mother So is the Daughter And hetherto of the defence of this reason Nowe moreouer lett it heere be obserued howe these men to defende their estate are glad to runne into the Papistes Tentes and to take vpp their worne rustie weapons which haue bene of no force to defend them selues but haue bene often iustly turned into their owne bowels Read the “ Rhemes notations vpon 1. Tim. 4.3 Reames Annotations vpon this place 1. Tim. 4. and see if these men heere would not auoyde the euidence of this scripture against them by the very same shift and answer by which the detestable Iesuites there would turne it from their mother of Rome that is by posting it ouer from them selues to Martion and Tatianus Read it and note it well H. JACOB his 2. Reply to the 7. Reason TO this your defence of your Seuenth Reason I say Though euery where you are very vnreasonable yet no where you seeme more vnconscionable and wilfull then here First doe I say No to the Apostles Yea 1. Tim. 4.1 2 3. That they who forbid Mariage and Meates doe fall from the faith Doe I say noe Is this your conscience Say I not expresly They doe in these points departe from the faith A strange vntrueth but not absolutly and wholy Secondly doeth it follow by my words as you affirme That none departe from the faith but those that departe totally wholy and absolutely whereby all the vildest Heretikes should be iustified as Arrians Nestorians Anabatists c. Doe I say so Is this also your conscience Againe doe I say The text doth not reproue all the Papists in their forbidding of Mariage and Meates but only Martion and Tatianus of old Doe I say any such thing Nay say I not expreslie the contrarie Are you then a man of conscience Doe you suffer for conscience Know therefore that this I say and my wordes before doe import so much That whosoeuer doe forbid mariage or meates doe depart from the faith But note some doe more some lesse There are some that doe simply and fundamentally and others in some sorte Men departe from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes First they which doe erre in such maine poincts as doe vtterly abolish vs from Christ and destroy the Foūdation thus doe Arrians Manichees Seruetus Papistes c. Secondly such as holding the Foundation in doctrine sound doe desperatly professe and teach some what els against the manifest light that is in them so Martion and Tatianus doe Fundamentally and simply fall from the faith because they simply forbid those good ordinances of God Marriage and Meates euen against the
in the mouthes of his weakest seruantes except they haue authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat 28.18 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1. 27. Psal 2.6 9 10 12. Esai 9.6 7. Zach. 4.6 and 6.12.23 Dan. 2.44 and 7.27 and 9.25 Mich. 5.7 Mat. 28.20 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6 12. 1 Tim. 6.13 14.15 Rene. 1.5 and 14.12 and 17.14 19 16. and 20.4 3 That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated companie of righteouse men and women from the Jdolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good bad Which doctrine is contrarie to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 with 6.2 Exod. 4.22 23. Leuit. 10.10 and 20.24 25 26 Psal 24.3 4. Ezra 6.21 2 Chron. 11.13 16. Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10 12. Act. 2.40 41 42. and 19.9 Rom. 12.1 8. 2 Cor. 6.17 18. 1 Pet. 2.9 10. Reu. 14.9 12. and 18.4 and 21.27 and 22.14 15. c. 4 That they may mainteyne this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they peruert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Sauiours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant not the Church but the world in which his Church is milatāt And as therin there is the good seede the righteous the Children of the Kingdome So there are also tares hipocrites the childrē of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous seruauntes of God so shall they in that great day be perfectlie seuered from the godly by the Angels of God verse 38.43 This their doctrine also is against the heauenlie orders mentioned Matt. 18.8 9 15 16 17. 1 Corint 1.26.29 Actes 2.40.41 47. and 5.26 27 28. and 19 9. and 5.4 7. 2 Cor. 6.17 18. Leuit. 18.29 1 Tim. 6.5 2 Iohn verse 6.11 Reuel 2. and 3. and 14.9.12 and 18.4 and 20.4 5 That the people may tollerate and ioyne with open iniquitie in the Church vntill by the Magistrate it be redressed which doctrine is contrary to these riptures 2 Cor. 10.4 5. Mat. 28.21 Acts. 2.40 3.23 and 4.19 and 9.26 and 19.9 1 Tim. 5.22 Deu. 5.32 6 That the guiftes of interpretation and application of the Scriptures are a sufficient and lawfull calling to the ministerie c. Which doctrine is both false and Anabaptisticall contrarie to the scriptures Heb. 5.4 Rom 12.6 7 8. Leuit. 22.25 Ezek. 44.8 9 c. Num. 1.51 and 3.10 38 and 16.40 and 18.2 3 4. Act. 1.20.26 and 14.23 and 13.2.3 7 That the Church may yeelde obedience vnto other lawes cannons and traditions officers and offices then God hath prescribed in his Conenant Which doctrine is contrarie to Gen. 49.10 Mal. 6.24 Iohn 10 4 5. Ren. 14.4 and 22 18 19. Heb. 3 1 c 8 That the Church may read other mens wordes vppon a booke and offer them vp to God as their owne prayers and sacrifices in the publique Assemblies Which doctrine is contrarie to the scriptures Esai 29.13 14. Rom. 8.26 1 Cor. 14.15 Mat. 6.6.9 and 15.9 Mar. 7.7 Ephe. 4.7 8. 1 Pet. 2.5 9 That it is lawfull to ioyne with the Ministerie of dumb and Jdoll Priests and to receiue the Sacramentes at their handes Which doctrine is contrarie to Mal. 15.14 and 7.19 and 24.24 25. Iohn 10.1.5 Num. 16 5 9 24 26 39 40 c. 1 Tim 6.5.2 Iohn verse 6.11 10 That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to cease preaching forsake his flock at the Commaundement of a Lord Bishop Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Cor. 9.16 Esay 62.4 6 7. Ier. 48.10 Zach. 11.17 Iohn 10.11 12 13. Actes 4.18 19 20 and 5.29 Amos 7.12 13 14 15. 2 Tim. 4.2 11 That the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to binde and loose to receiue in and to cast out by the Keyes of the Kingdome Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 18.17 18. Psal 149.9 1 Cor. 5.4 5.12 Num. 5 2 3. 12 That it is lawfull for the people of God to heare notorious false prophetes in their Ministerie Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 18.15 Mat. 17.5 and 7.15.2 John verse 10.11 1 Cor. 10.18 Gala. 1 8 9. Reuel 14 9 10 11. and 18.4 John 10.96 13 That it is the Church and house of God the body and kingdome of Christ where he reigneth not by his own Ordinances Officers but the highest Ecclesiasticall authoritie is in the handes of strange Lordes and Antichristian Prelates who also gouerne by Romishe Cannons and not according to the lawes of Christes Testament Which doctrine and practise is condemned by Luke 19.14 27. Iohn 15.14 Rom. 6.16 Luke 22.25 26. 1 Pet. 3.2 Thes 2 3.4 Iohn 3.35.36 Reuel 9.3 and 14.9.10.11 and 19.14.15 14 That there may be a prescript Leiturgie and sett fourme of seruice in the Church framed by man which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 5.8 Esai 29.13 14. Mat. 15.9 and 7.6.7 Gal. 3.15 Iohn 4.24 Rom. 8.26.27 Ephe. 4.7.8 15 That an Antichristian Prelate notwithstanding his dignitie as it is called spirituall may be a Ciuill Magistrate and obeyed of the people as their lawfull gouernour Which doctrine is contrarie to Rom. 13.1 c. Mat. 20.25 26. Mar. 10.42 43. Luke 22.25 26. Reuel 14.9 10 11. and 17.18 16 That men may giue the titles of Christ Jesus vnto these sonnes of men and his mortall enemies to call them their Arch and Lord Bishops Reuerend Fathers c. Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 23 8 9 10. Esai 42.8 and 48.11 Pro. 17.15 and 24.24 Esai 5.20 2 Cor. 6.14.17 17 That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to be mainteyned in his ministerie by the goods of wicked and vnbeleeuers by Iewish and Popishe tythes and offeringes Which doctrine is contrarie to Prou. 27.26 27. 1 Cor. 9.13 14. Phil. 4.10.18 Gal. 6.6 Rom. 15.27 Heb. 7.12 These are the 17 poinctes which were mentioned before in the proofe of this reason which the aduersarie hath left altogeather vnanswered as he hath done also their owne Cannons Articles and Iniunctions which are to be seene in their printed bookes And thus is he driuen againe againe whether he will or not to yeeld vs the cause That which he addeth in the next place of their not wholy denying the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinately peruerslie and desperatlie any parte thereof is answered before in the defence of our second Exception and of our sixt and seauenth Reasons Nowe when he next saith That they are not herein like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paule separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Actes 13.14 and 16 3 and 21 23 24 26. and 3.1 Firste wee aske What if they be not in all respectes like vnto those
Jewes are they not therefore to be separated from So in deed he would conclude in this place But then let him tell vs if Corah Dathan and Abiram the Apostate Jewes vnder Ieroboam the Corinthians Papistes c might not alleadge some particular exception wherein they were not like to those Iewes Act. 19. Might not therefore separatiō be made from these The scripture teacheth otherwise Numb 16.25 26. 2 Chrō 11.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Reu. 18.4 Secondly cōsider the place it selfe Act. 19.9 cōpare it with their estate practise in England see if there be not now as great and iust cause to separate from thē as frō the other Are not these now hardned against the trueth Let their writings against it their imprisonning banishing and killing for it giue euidence Doe they not disobey it Let their constitution and practize be witnesse Speake they not euill of the way of God before the multitude Let the Sermons of their Ministers in the pulpit the speaches of the Prelates in their Courtes beare record Therefore saith that “ Actes 19.9 Actes 2.40 Scripture Actes 19 they are to be departed and separated from Wherevnto also may be added in this case that which Peter saith Act. 2 Saue your selues from this froward generation Thidly were he obiecteth That Paule did not separate frō all the other Iewes as he did from these Acts 19. and sheweth it by Act. 13.14 and 16.3 21 23 24 26. 3.1 we answer that the Apostles had good and iust cause so to doe For first the Jewes * Rom. 9.4 Leuit. 20.22 24 26. Luk. 1.6.8 c. were the people of God separated from the world and set in the true waand order of God Secondly * Luke 24.47 Act. 1.8 and 13.46 Christ commaunded the Apostles when he sent them to preach his Gospell throughout the worlde that they should first preach it to the Iewes Thirdlie the Iewes ministerie ceremonies being the ordinances of God him selfe and giuen in writing by Moses the man of God “ Act. 15.21 and 21.30 21 22 23 24 25. Heb. 8.5 13. 9.1 c. were therefore nowe when they should cease to be buried with honor These things considered we see the Apostles had iust cause so to doe as they did in those places mentioned But what is this to the assemblies of England which neuer yet were separated from the world nor set in the way and order of Christ but stande in the * Reue. 13.16 17. and 18 2. 2 The. 2.3 4 8 confusion and defection of Antichrist whose ministerie also and worshippe were neuer the ordinances of God But * Reue. 17.2 4 and 18.3 and 9.3 c. taken out of the whores Cup of Babilon for which likewise God neuer gaue Comaundement to goe vnto them but to “ Reue. 18.4 with 17.9 1 Tim. 6 3 5. departe from them as being daughters of the greate Babilon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Againe euen from those Iewes notwithstanding the reasons aforesaid yet when they put from them the trueth and would not receyue it the Apostles departed and separated thē selues yea and shooke off the dust of their feete against them teaching others to doe so likewise Actes 13.46 51. and 18.6 28 25 26 27 28. and 20.40 and 19.8 9. To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is answered before And hetherto of their generall Assumption which was this That the whole doctrine as it is professed and publiquely practised by lawe in Englande is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Which wee haue shewed to be vntrue both by the Exceptions and Reasons aforesaid which still stande firme against them as is manifest by this our defence Touching the conclusion And now let the godly Reader trying all things by the word of trueth iudge whether we or they holde Paradoxes Touching that he saith of the reformed Churches he is deceyued if he thinke they allowe their present estate and church constitution Both their publique profession and practise witnesse the contrarie as wee haue declared at large in “ In the answers of Ma. Carthwrights reasons of Maist Hildersams letter c. other treatises which yet remayne vnanswered wherevnto we referre the Reader in this behalfe Where he sayth That we our selues heretofore haue acknowledged and professed it to wit their general Assumption aforesaid to be true he is also deceyued therein we haue alway * You maie speake it with shame enough testified the contrarie both by our profession and practise and were and are therefore cast into prison appoincted to exile and put to death besides many other iniuries grieuances inflicted vpon vs for this verie cause In deed we haue acknowledged and doe acknowledge that they professe diuers excellent truthes but that the whole doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by law in England doeth make them in that estate true Christians neuer anie of vs that we know of did once acknowledge And therfore till he shew vs the contrarie we must needes thinke that he falsely burtheneth vs all and specially such of vs as he hath mentioned here in particular To that which he next addeth of the Martirs in Queene Maries dayes is answered already in the defence of our Seconde Exception and First Reason wherevnto may be added for more euidēce of the trueth the particular speaches testimonies of the holy Martirs them selues both then and in former tymes As of Maister Bradford who “ Actes monuments 2. vo in his conference with Peter Henth speaking of the dayes before Queene Marie saide The tyme was when the Pope was out of England but not all popery And moreouer “ In his firste speach with D. Harpsfielde Archdeacon That the scripture knoweth not any difference betweene Bishops and Ministers which men call Priestes And that the scripture speaking of Bishops can not be vnderstood of Bishops that minister not but lord it Also of Maister Hooper who held and “ Hooper on the eight commandment published that a Bishop should be Bishop but of one Citie and that till the Magistrates bring them to this poinct it shal be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the scripture in case of Religion as to driue a Cammell through the eye of a needle And agayne he sayth The primitiue Church had not such Bishops as be nowe a dayes And againe What blindnesse sayth he is there befell in the world that can not see this palpable yll that our Mother the holy Church had at the beginning such Bishops as did preach many godly Sermons in lesse time then our Bishops horses bee a brideling And John Bale an exile for the testimonie of Jesu writing vpon the Reuelation * Bale in his booke called The Image of both churches vpon Reu. 13.1 and 17.3 affirmeth moreouer That the names of Blasphemy written vpon the Beastes head Reuel 13. and
17. are none other then the proud glittering titles wherewith they garnish their vsurped authoritie to make it seeme glorious to the worlde hauing within them conteyned the great misterie of iniquitie What other els saith he also is Pope Cardinall Metropolitan Primate Archbishop Diocean Archdeacon Officiall Chauncelour Commissarie Deane Prebend Parsons Vicar and such like but very names of blasphemie For offices they are not appointed by the holy Ghost nor yet once mentioned in the scriptures This Iohn Bale held and published Then which what can be more full and euident against them And againe writing vpon the 14. chapter of the Reuelation In Image of both churches vpō Reu. 14.9 he hath these wordes To receyue the beastes marke in their foreheads hands is both to agree to such decrees traditions lawes constitutions actes and proclamations as they vnder those titles haue made onely for their own couetousnes and pompe and neither for the glorie of God nor yet for the right maintenance of the Christian cōmon wealth And also to be sworn to the same to subscribe to it to giue counsell or ayde to it to mainteyne it by learning to minister in it to execute vnder it to accuse punishe and put to death for it or to thinke it lawfull and godly with such like And “ Ibid. vpon Reuel 16.12 afterward vpon the 16. of the Reuelation expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessions and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith Moreouer In * Marke also by this of what time estate hee speaketh euen of such when the Gospell was preached the Monasteries suppressed England by the Gospell preaching haue many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all thinges brought vnto Christs cleare institution A cincere Christian-order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe and with as many Heathenish obseruations as euer they did As cruelly harted and as bloody minded are they yet as euer they were afore No mischiefe vnsought to holde in the waters Marke howe “ He meaneth the Prelates of these Seas Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lyncolne worke let vs also now adde Canterburie with such other pleasantlie disposed Euphratynes But be of good comfort pray in the meane time For the holy Ghost promiseth heere that they shall wither away withall that the heauenly Father hath not planted All which generation will the Lords breth cōsume c. Likewise may be shewed by the testimonie of others in former tymes as of Iohn Wickliffe who * Actes Monumen 4. edi 1. vol. pa. 150. helde and affirmed That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Cannons were disciples of Antichrist In like manner of William Swinderby who * Ibid. pag. 36.8 b. said that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of liuing or teachching or lawes making contrarie to Christs liuing his lawes or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of Christ but by Christ and his lawes is very Antichrist aduersarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Also Syr John old Castle Lord Cobham who “ Ibid. pag. 5621 b. 563. held affirmed that the Bishops Priestes Prelates and Monkes were the body of the great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy were the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Likewise Iohn * Ibid. pag. 639. b Cladon burnt in Smithfield held professed that the Archbishops Bishops speaking indifferently are the seates of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth aboue other people in the darke Calues of errors and heresies Moreouer that the Bishops licence for a mā to preach the worde of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally William “ In his treatises called the obedience of a christian man and the pracsise of Prelats Tindall and Iohn * In his Preface before his Antythesis betweene Christ and the Pope Frith held and publissed That Archb. Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officialls Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichristes themselues These are the speeches and testimonies of the holy Martirs in former ages whereunto diuerse other such like might bee added But these may suffice for the matter in hand And now compare with these thinges alleadged the publique profession practise of England euen as it is by law at this day and see whether their own proofes bee not so many witnisses against themselues But if it were so that the reformed Churches wee our selues and the Martirs of former time had geuen allowance of their present estate Church constitution what would this help thē when all the word of God condemneth thē as we haue shewed in our Reasons aforesaid defence therof Whereunto if they will still iustifie their estate wee require direct answer from poinct to poinct and that from the scriptures which only can stablish the conscince Now furthermore that the truth it selfe and their estate may better appeare what it is as also that they may not turne away or obscure the truth by their subtill shiftes and euasions as their manner is we will therefore propound vnto them a few questions concerning the poinctes now in controuersie in this land desiring their playne and sincere answers thereunto by the word of God as they will answer him in his great day The questions are these 1 Whether the Lord Iesus Christ haue by his last Testament geuen vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary 1. Offices with their 2. Callings 3. Workes and 4. Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and seruice of his Church to the end of the world or no. 2 Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and helpers be those offices appincted by Christ in his last Testament as aforesaid .. Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticannos Gospellers Pistlers Virgirers Queristers Organ-players Priests Deacons or halfe Priestes Archdeacons Doctors of diuinitie Batchelers of diuinity Chaplyns or House-priestes Commissaries Officialls Procters Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercinary preachers Church-wardens Sidemen Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in these Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those offices appoincted by Christ in his last Testament as is aforesaid or no. 3 Whether the Callinges and entraunce into these Ecclesiasticall offices last aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance nowe had and receiued in England be the manner of calling administration maintenaunce which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his church aboue named or no. 4 Whether euery true visible church of
Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world by the worde of God and ioyned togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedince of Christ And whether the present ecclesiasticall assemblies of this Land be such or no. 5 Whether the Sacraments beeing seales of the righteousnes which is by faith may be deliuered to any other then to the faithfull and their seed or in any other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they bee not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies of England at this day 6 Whether their booke of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts and Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these assemblies be the true worship of God commaunded in his word or the deuise or inuention of man for Gods worship and seruice 7 Whether all people and Churches without exception bee not bound in Religion only to receiue and submit vnto that ministerie worship and order which Christ as Lord and King hath giuen and appoyncted to his Church Or whether in Religion any may receiue or ioyne vnto another ministery worship and order deuised by man for the seruice of God And consequently whether they which ioyne to the present ecclesiasticall ministerie worship and order of these cathedrall and parishionall assemblies can bee assured by the word of God that they ioyne vnto the former appoincted by Christ and not to the latter deuised by man euen the man of sinne for the worship and seruice of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire their direct answer with proofes of their answers from the scriptures according to which word if they speake not as wee said before so we say againe with the “ Esa 8.20 Prophet Esay It is because there is no light in them And now to conclude whereas this man being not able to answer our Reasons as hath bene declared yet would in the ende of his writting fasten vpon vs some strange passion yea and meere desperatnes for separating from them and answering of them as we haue done We leaue it the godly and discrete Reader to iudge by that which hath bene said on both parts whether it bee not themselues which are taken with a strange passion and driuen there unto by meere desperatnes when as to mainteyne their estate they will haue the scriptures to fall as hath bene * See the answer to our second Exceptiō and 7. Reason c. seene in their answeres before yea and exalt the Church and Magistrate aboue Christ himselfe euen flesh and blood aboue God blessed for euer But for this and oll their vnrighteous dealing against the truth and people of God we leaue them to the Lord who searcheth the hearts tryeth the raynes euen to giue euery man according to his wayes and according to the frute of his workes That is to them that by continuance in weldoing seeke glorie and honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth and obey vnrighteousnes indignation and wrath Jer. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6 7 8. H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say euery one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab co quod est secandum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Thirde Fallacia aequinocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3 4 5. saying separate frō such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desparate conscience and then if that apeate separate from such wholly Or els erring in simplicitie and of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate not wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacie and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe and withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Maist Cranmer and the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie likewise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians and you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe and yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Neither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very profession doctrine wee cannot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluation while they so remaine but indeed very Antichristes as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally As it doth not conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were casely certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that haue many probable and seeming reasons and alleadge them publish
before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakely corruptly And very like euen to your owne receiuing into your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation haue receiued many knowne bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention bitter strife 1 Cor. 3.3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures doe not disanull a Church gathered and setled as appeareth aboue in the scriptures quoted against the First AccusatioÌ„ Mat 23. Luke 2. c. Therfore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning Accusa ∣ tion 3 The Third Accusation is our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian officers c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diuersitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God nor of like coÌ„sequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say All sinnes by their nature are mortal yet doe they not al alike abolish vs from Christ nor depriue vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the * 1 Cor. 15.3 3. 4. RoÌ„ 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men liuing and dying ignorantly without perticular repeÌ„tance may be saued Such were the sinnes of the Iewish church and estate in Christes time and after as “ Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke euen till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostom Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. in King Edward dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially touching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all conuicted nowe and sinne against our coÌ„scieÌ„ces as they did not in those times It is vtterly false a palpable vntrueth Whosoeuer knoweth any thing in our church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct touching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged euen of ignoraÌ„ce in a thousand to one many holding not of the simplest this present gouernement to be th' only true right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent lawful very few indeed scarse to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intollerable And in King Edwards time whosoeuer considereth shall finde that the godly learned ProtestaÌ„ts then were not vtterly ignorant of this poinct of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the times neither were abolished from Christ And surely touching the Iewes they were all generally more conuicted then that Iesus was the Christ then we are now that the Prelacie is of Antichrist yet they remayned a church stil because generally indeed they were not plainly conuicted Thus theÌ„ this our sinne is * See the 2. sortes of fundamental sinnes in the 2. Reply to your 7. Reason before pag. 48. no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole assemblies Therfore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as he vncharitably speaketh O beware of rash and hasty iudging euen of one brother Rom. 14.3 4 13. how much more of such so many whole assemblies professing Christ in EnglaÌ„d Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our euil but we warne you not to curse vs in our good which indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs froÌ„ that sinceritie which els we should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely that is without affection partialitie euen of him that is despised Better it is and more Christian like euen to offende in too much compassion and patience especially towardes so many hundreth thousands by whom we know nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and seueritie vniust anger Mat. 5. â—2 Howbeit this were not indeed to offend as hath bene aboue shewed And briefly in twoo words thus I conclude it farther that That faith religioÌ„ taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeue and obey the same true Christians such as so liuing and dying may be saued But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand they haue denyed it Howbeit for answer I referre them partly to that which here hath bene said before and especiallie to that which is replied to their Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent and Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique church assemblies in England to be true Christians REASON II. F. Iohns SEcondly the Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Therefore the comparison holdeth not H. Iacob FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz. the peoples coÌ„senting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignoraÌ„ce hauing respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striuing nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree and like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Euen so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will they except here against those Pastors amoÌ„gst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted inducted by the Praelat Many are thus called amongst vs the most haue the peoples consent euen togeather at their first inducting at least wise they haue soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them euen presently 3. Lastly in a word where he saith the Praelats make Ministers without and before the peoples consent We “ Beza in Act 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but only supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him
vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitionsly depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our stare but I say Thus to beleeue and practize simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt answer You deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to bee saued wherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct which in the beginning I charged you with That all Churches and Christians here in Kinge Edwards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tayler c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they were lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see how malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry say against you O shamelesse mouth ô vnchristian heart which termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs and yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practize as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches nowe Yea betwene your owne lately and ours now speake out what is it Yow can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outward Church order which wee doe But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity we malitiously they of ignorance wee of plaine obstinacie and hauing a conuicted and seared conscience whereby they you might be true Christians for all these errors but we now cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against which all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a perticuler man a true Christian Secondly wee now erre not in these poincts of simplicitie but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you knowe euery mans heart and conscience so well If you doe then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whom you dare say are conuicted in coÌ„science That is much also to affirme But if you doe that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and chiefest in authoritie that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blaspheamed in denying him And yet the Assemblies then where not conuicted they still were true Churches Wherefore in this saying if you say to the purpose you then affirme the Third generall poinct that I noted in you at the beginning of this my last Reply That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience But here I maruell that you say Maister Hus and others of the holy Martirs did heare and say Masse till their dying day Also that others did acknowledge the Popes supremacie I aske you doe you meane that they held and vsed the Popish Masse according to all the abominations that are in it If you thinke so then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest were holy Martirs For therin are founde errors plainely fundamental which of them selues abolish from Christ They are not to be compared to our publike errours now in England The like I say of the Popes supremacy If you thinke any of the Martirs acknowledged it in the large and ample meaning therof as the Popish Doctors doe set it down Then verily neither were they any Martirs The booke of Acts and Monuments whither you send vs affirmeth not that they held these errours in the largest and grossest sort It may be therefore they held manie and greuious errors of ignorance both in the Popish Masse and in the supremacy which might neuerthelesse stand with Christ crucifyed And so they might be were holy Martirs But I affirme that according to the damnable grossenes of the very Papists they neither did nor could hold them Therefore in these instances you say nothing to vs nor against the question in hand Further you said before in the beginning of your desence of this Exception * Pag. 13. That Master Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of the Martirs then neither had them selues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Now I see you make no conscience of vntruthes yea you are bold to auouch open and known falsehoods Did not Maister Cranmer hold himselfe for Archbishop still and that hee was by the Pope vniustly and vnsufficiently deposed and by Queene Mary forcibly restreyned from it Did he euer repent of holding that Office till his death Also did not Ridley stand vpon his right to the Bishoprick of London though ready to die Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministerie and neuer repented him of it Philpot neuer misliked hâ—s Arch-deaconry Yea when he refused bloudy Bonner Yer he appealed to his ordinary the Bishop of Winchester The like minde is to be seene in Bishop Farrar And generally whosoeuer were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they neuer renounced it though they died Martirs Thus appeareth your bould vntruth in this behalfe Further in your Sixt answer Pag. 16. First you will not see what I meane in saying That these outward orders bee not of the foundation simply I meant not at all of the very * 1 Cor. 15.2 3 4. Rom. 4.25 1. Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. foundation neither are they Secondly you aske if our outward orders vnder Christ be not fundamentall aswell as the Iewes vnder the Law I answer neither were the Iewes outward orders of the very foundation without which they could not be saued Thirdly you aske how Corah c. differing from Moses and Aron only about the Priesthood and Ministerie were separated from and damned I answer not that the matter was fundamentall but the Manner was rebellious with consciences a thousand times conuicted and so donne with a high hand against God him selfe But now this considered How vainely doe you charge mee in your entrance into this Excep pa. 13. That I others of my minde goe about to iustifie these matters of order in controuersy by Cranmer Ridlies and Latimers example and their Congregations then For shame doe you not see the coÌ„trary that I call them errors I onely iustifie by their exaÌ„ple that these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ as