contrary so it sorteth best with her honour who was the Mother of our Sauiour As for rebaptizing of those who were baptized by o Efficacia Sacramenti est ex institutioni ordinansis non ex sanctitate minâ—strantis Baptismus talis est qualâ—s ille iâ— câ—ius potestate datur non qualiâ— percuius ministerium datur Aug. in Ioh. â— Heretiques we rather follow Augustine then Cyprian yet not because he hath taught it but for that as him selfe saith Ex Euangelio profero certa documenta I haue sure p Eph 4.5 proofes out of the Ghospell Yea he pronounceth a q Cont. lit Petil. lib. 3. ca 6. curse vppon all such as teach any thing either of Christ or his Church or any other matter of faith besides that which is receyued from the Legall and Euangelicall Scriptures I once heard a Papist exceedingly puzled with a speeck of his to r Ad Max. lib. 3. cap. 14. Maximinus Neque ego Synodum Nicaenam nectu Ariminensem debes tanquam praeiudicaturus afferre Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Scripturarum auctoritatibus non quorumcumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione certet Min. Irenaeus Tertullian who had to doe with such refractory Heretiques as either denyed the purity of the Scriptures or traduced the perspicuity of them did both of them appeale to Tradition because they where challenged at that weapon by their aduersaries And by what Compasse did they saile first they proue that alone to be true and authenticall Tradition which was deliuered by Christ to the Apostles and by them to the Church by whome it was successiuely deriued to posterity Secondly they stand for no other Traditions but for the very same articles of faith which were contayned in the written worde Peruse Å¿ Irenae lib. 1. cap. 2.3 lib. 3. cap. 4. Tertul. lib. de praescrip haeret both their seuerall and specificall Enumerations of Traditions which the Church hath successiuely continued and you shall find them to iumpe in all respects with the Apostles Creede T is true they might haue proued them before competent Iudges by the authority of Scripture but as the Case stoode the authority of the Church was thought more preualent and the rather that they might shew the harmony thereof with the holy Scriptures Wherefore if you stand for such Traditions as they vrge it is fit your Bill should passe otherwise you must not take it ill if your Grace be stopt Iab Doe but t Pag. 105. read your learned Author Hierome Zanchius who will giue you a newer tune then that you haue piped vnto vs. That Author teacheth that diuerse vnwritten Traditions concerning Doctrine and Manners are in the Church which are not only profitable but in a manner necessary which we must reuerence and obey else we contemne the authority of the Church which is very displeasing vnto God Your Dr. Feild grauntes that Papists haue good reason to equall their Traditions to the written worde if they can proue any such vnwritten verities Ma. Zanchius meaneth not your Lenten fast your Ecclesiasticall orders of Acolothytes and Exorcists your Purgatory and Prayer for the dead which you will sooner proue to be dreames then Apostolicall Traditions but the very same which Tertullian and Irenaeus haue recorded for such Dr. Feildes If touching the poynt in question carries the sence of an impossible Supposition which we haue reason to suspect till your Purgatory shewe a better pedigree If you can proue this to be one of those vnwritten TraditioÌ„s whereof Zanchius speaketh then we will according to Dr. Feildes aduise not much dissent from your Conclusion till then we must craue pardon Iab The u Pag. 107. places which the Knight alleadgeth to proue the Churches Doctrine in this pointe to be a Sathanicall figment disgracefull vnto the great mercy of God and euacuating the Crosse of Christ are many but either so triuiall and knowne together with the Catholiques aunsweres or else so ridiculously applied wrung and wrested to your purpose that their very sound is able to breake a learned mans head Nick. Then had you neede of a good head-peice to beare off the weight of the blowe whose sound maketh so great a battery Yet if none but learned mens heads be in daunger of breaking your rough-hewen skonce neede feare the lesse Well seeing my Mr. is arrested for bloud-shed he meanes to aunswere the action vpon Bayle And for want of a better Atorney let me craue a Coppy of your Plea Iab Shall x Pag. 108. I make the Analisis of his Rhetoricall arguments They be three Enthymems I thinke The first The Gates of Hell shall not preuaile against the Church ergo there is no Purgatory The second The scule of Christ went downe to the nethermost hell ergo no Purgatory can be found The third Christ bound the strong man and tooke his Fortresse ergo Purgatory must vanish awaye Ma. The argument that once passeth your fingers is not dismissed without a torne fleece but seeing we must take it as you present it let vs heare your exceptions why it should vndergoe so triuiall and ridiculous a censure Iab Can you y Ibid. deny but many of your praedestinate and Elect are for robbing and stealing and other such crimes locked vp in London Gaoles What shall not Hell-gate preuaile against them shal the wal of a prison mew them vp Hath the soule of Christ gone downe into the nether-most Hell made no passage through Newgates Limbo where sometimes your Elect are kept Hath hee bound the strong man that hee should not harme and shall now a Hangman put them to death You perceiue I hope the vanitie of your Inferences Ma. Hee that lookes vpon them through your spectacles may read Absurdity indeed But that you may know the falsenesse of your Glasse by the mishapen Representation which it giueth to so well a proportioned face you must bee aduertised that the Knights argument was neyther so Wide-mouthed nor so Goggle-eyed as the picture which you haue drawne according to your own Idaea to resemble it He speaks of the state of th'elect in the after-world according to the intendement of the Scriptures alleaged you wrest it to their corrections in this life which haue their profitable vse His scope looks to the satisfying of Gods Iustice which Christ hath fully accomplished and not to those Chastisements which are as spurres to driue men to lay hold vpon that all-sufficient Sacrifice at which your Squint-eyed supposition doth glance Min. There are sundrie reasons why the Lord suffereth his Elect to vndergoe those bodily penalties First for the manifestation of his owne Iustice Secondly for their Correction humiliation and amendement that their Spirits may bee saued in the day of the Lord Thirdly for the Caution and Example of others Fourthly for the maintenance of publike tranquillitie and politique Societie
compasse of this present life were not like greatly to passe for any threat which had no further Extent then the date of this World Wherefore in this respect alone it were no absurditie for our Sauiour to giue them a Cooling Card by letting them know not only that there is a World to come but also that their obstinate and wilfull Blasphemie shall bee there punished without expectation of Remission or hope of ease Nick. Sir you haue wonne the spurs the Doctor is off the hookes the nose of his Deduction is now set cleane awrie the supposed Idlenesse of the most Diuine speech is demostratiuely remoued Purgatorie hath fetch'd her last breath It is in vaine for the Doctor to froate the Key-cold Carcasse any longer If he powre in a pint of Doctor Stephens water it will not moue a joynt Me thinkes I see the Mortuarie Suffrages and moath-eaten Miracles lamenting about the coarse Kind hearts I thinke they are all agreed to k Vnica defunctas tres continet urna sorores die for companie CHAP. IIII. The Scriptures authoritie and sufficiencie warranted against prayer for the dead and other Romish Traditions Iab THat short and a Pag. 90 pithie treatise which the Knight sought to disgrace with froathie lines alleadged for Purgatorie the Custome of the Church to pray for the dead and their releefe in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar which custome he proueth was perpetuall euen from the blessed Apostles Ma. What that Authour then carried with the precipitate motion of your superiour and irregular Spheares was inforced to write he hath now vpon his second setled and more deliberate thoughts found sufficient cause to disclaime Your confident suggesting made him somewhat too credulous in beleeuing Hauing lost his Anchor-hold he was the more easily driuen vpon those quick-sands by the violence of a swelling b Doli fabricator Epeus Floud His stayed Iudgment hath since taught him to thinke Pigmalion a foole for doting so much vpon his sencelesse feature which hath neyther breath nor life Nick. Giue Iabal leaue to licke his owne whelpe When hee hath done all he can it will proue but a deformed lumpe his apish dandling will hazard the thriuing Neuer did I see the spawne of a Crab-fish proue good Sturgeon Min. Seeing you attribute such pithinesse to a shaking reede wee are content to see you brandish your owne speare the weapons that came out of your own Armorie may happily serue best for your owne vse And though wee could wish you to make experiment of your valour in spirituall assaults yet rather then our discourse should shrinck in the wetting we are not vnwilling to heare you presse your owne arguments touching the Churches c Pag. 91 perpetuall Tradition to pray for Saints in Purgatorie in the next life Iab Saint Cyril d Pag. 91 Arch-bishop of Ierusalem liuing in Constantine the Great his time writeth of that practise in this sort When we offer vp Sacrifice wee pray for our deceased Fathers and Bishops and finally for al men departed amongst vs for we beleeue that this is a great help for the soules of them in whose behalfe wee offer that Holy and fearefull Sacrifice which is laid vpon the Altar Saint Chrisostome saith as much that it was not vnaduisedly decreed by the Apostles that in the fearefull Mysteries there should be a commemoration of the dead for they knew the dead receiued great benefite and vtilitie thereby Ma. Your Pinfold of Purgatorie is no whit the stronger for eyther of these testimonies It is not once named nor presupposed If you confesse that the Fathers Bishops and all men departed for whome they prayed were pinned vp in that Coope then is your argument of some force But seeing your Charitie dare not passe so rash a Censure their generall practise e Suffragia â—uiusmodi non prosunt animabus in vita aeterna Iniuriam facit Martyri qui orat pro Martyre Pet Ierem. Ser 25. de Suffragijs mortuorum cannot establish your particular dreame Saint Chrisostome telles you that these Sacrifices and Prayers whereof Cyril speaketh were Commemorations of the dead which you may be the better induced to beleeue because they prayed for All whereof some were Patriarches some Martyrs some Confessors and manie of them blessed Saints alreadie inuested with Celestiall glorie Saint Cyrils Sacrifice in the behalfe of these could be no other then the Sacrifice of Prayse which seeing he attributeth without distinction to all the faithfull departed alike your differenced Purgatorie-paines are not at all eased by this ancient pious and laudable practise Nick. There was a time when the Romanists also f Pet. Ieremias ibid. prayed for the Vessels in glorie in this manner Annue nobis Domine vt animae famuli tui Leonis haec prosit oblatio But being better aduised least praying for the Saints in glorie they might nullifie the presupposall of Purgatorie Indigence they haue changed it thus Annue Domine quaesumus intercessione Beati Leonis haec nobis prosit oblatio Min. It is most true that the Greeke Church prayed for the dead yet make they no mention of Purgatorie g Apol. graec pag. 119. We haue not receiued say they from our Doctors that there is anie such temporarie punishment by fire and wee know that the East Church neuer thought so Nick. Yet doth hee produce Cyril that this is a great helpe for the soules of them in whose behalfe wee offer that Holy Sacrifice Min. You shall not neede to haue this knot cut which may be so easily vntied It was then generally receiued amongest those ancient Fathers h Bart. Medin Six Senens Bibl. lib. 6. anno 344. that the soules of the Saints being receiued into an outward Court of Heauen called Abrahams bosome did not see God vntill the daie of judgement from this groundlesse Supposition proceded their mortuarie oblations whereby they were petitioners for the hastning of their remoue into the highest Heauen not for the lessening or mitigation of any scorching agonies the feare whereof the Popes pecuniarie Hobgoblinets vnder the conduct of superstitious deuotion did afterwards rayse Your argument drawne from tradition as it hath error for her originall so hath it Sophistrie for the Abettor They prayed for the Martyrs and for all the righteous from Abel and yet you saie with Cyprian Falce Martyrij omnia peccata creduntur purgata They prayed for the consummation of their glorie as i De obit Theodos Ambrose for Theodosius and Valentinian whom he had pronounced as vndoubted heires of the Heauenly Hierusalem and Augustine for his mother Monica the safetie of whose soule was not so much as questioned whereas your oblations are of another Dye being neyther Congratulations for their present joyes nor testifications of your Christian hope but imaginarie reliefes from that place which Scripture doth not specifie and from those paines which k 1. Cor. 13.67 Charitie hath no warrantise to misdoubt Nick. If they
feast of Easter Supremacy that they complained when Phocas conferred it vppon Boniface It is an incredible happines which you ascribe to the Roman Church that it neuer fell into heresy when as the n 2. Thes 2.7 mystery of iniquity began to worke euen in the age of the Apostles Then was o Iob. Mar. belg pag 441. Petrarch too blame for calling Rome the Whore of Babylon and p Hist pag. 535. Mathew Paris for saying she was a shamelesse common and prostituted whore Did not Marcellinus commit Idolatry in offering sacrifice to Iupiter Did not Pope Liberius fall into Arianisme when Athanasius stood vppon his right feete I am sure you haue heard that Honorius the first was a Monotholite holding that Christ had but one will and one nature Iab The q Pag. 102. sincerity of doctrine as Ruffinus noteth is the cause that the Church of Rome did neuer add any worde or sillable to the Creede but kept the same intire without addition Ma. Then you graunt as much as we craue that those principall Iewells which the Catholique Church prizest most came not out of Roomes Treasury Me thincks you should blush when you name Ruffinus for how haue you degenerated from that auncient Rome who haue not bene ashamed to add not only sillables but more then eleuen articles to the Apostolicall Creede Reckon them vppon your fingers and you shall neither finde the Popes Supremacy nor Purgatory c. which you haue added as poyntes of like necessity to be beleiued Nick. Then haue they litle affinity with the true Church for r Lett. to T. H. pag. 68. she taketh not vppon her to controll the holy Scripture her mother from whome she drew her first breath She openeth not her mouth till her Mother haue deliuered her minde she commeth not of her owne head with a sleeuelesse arrant Iab You ſ Pag 104. describe the Spouse of Christ as a mannerly young mayd brought vp in Luthers schoole You deserue a t Pag. 106. coate with foure sleeues for this Metaphor which maketh the Church Scripture Daughter Nick. Are these the u Praef. Cumaean sopps you promised take heede least you pluck an old house ouer your eares Such liueries best befitt your indigent followers Let him weare your fooles-coate with fower sleeues that is free of your company You may cutt as large a thonge as you list of your owne hide Ma. The Metaphor is sacred and doth not deserue so ridiculous a weede S. Peter vseth it saying that we are borne a newe not of mortall seede but of immortall x 1. Pet. 1.23 Rom. 10.17 by the worde of God I haue begotten you saith S. Paul y 1. Cor. 4.15 by the Ghospell The Church being begotten and gathered by the worde must not stand vppon tearmes of seniority with her progenitor Iab The z Pag. 107. Church of the old testament was some thousand yeares before scripture the Church of the newe testament did flourish many yeares before any Ghospel was written S. Irenaeus a Pag. 106. 107 writeth that many Churches in his time had neuer read any worde of Scripture yet did they flourish by keeping the Tradition of Christian doctrine in their heartes Ma. A man might pose you should he demaund what proofe you haue for your Negatiue that there were no sacred bookes before those fiue written by Moses seeing he mentioneth a b Num. 21.14 Booke of the warres of the Lord and the c Ioshua 10.13 Booke of the Iust what can you shewe to the contrary why those bookes might not be written by some of the Patriarches Doth not St. d Verse 14. Iude alleadge a testimony out of the prophecy of Enoch Min. Let vs not contend with him for this What if we graunt that the vnwritten worde was more auncient the difference was not in the matter but in the manner It was vnto them being ratifyed by the Prophets and confirmed by extraordinary reuelations in the nature of a written worde And when that worde was expressed in visible Caracters Traditions e Mat. 15.3 were of no longer vse As for the Ghospell it was written before the Race of eye-witnesses was extinct what they preached the same things they registred So that it was one and the f Proliteris spiritus Sancti gratiam se illis daturum repromisit Chrisost bom 1. in Mat. same worde by which the Church in all ages hath bene gathered For as g Euseb l. 3. 20. Irenaeus saith of Polycarpus he deliuered those things which he had learned of them who had seene the worde of life 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wholy agreable to that which is written The same Father h Irenaeus l. 3. c. 1 also informes vs that the Apostles left in writing to the Church the same Ghospell which they had formerly preached by worde of mouth that it might be a foundation and pillar of our faith yea of that true and liuely saith which the Church hath receiued from them and doth prescribe to her Children As they preached saith S. Hierom. for the confirmation of faith so was it necessary they should write for the confusion of Heretiques Contra insidiosos errores saith S. i In Epist Ioh. 1. tract 2. Augustine voluit Deus ponere firmamentum in Scripturis Seeing then the ayme of Gods spirit in the deliuery of diuine Scripture which is k 2. Tim. 3.15 able to make a man wise vnto Saluation was as Theophilact writeth to preuent haereses pullulaturas what doe they but open a gappe for all heresyes which giue waye to vnwritten vncertayne and vnnecessary Traditions Considera quam sit extremae dementiae saith S. l Hom. 1. in Mat. Chrisostome nos qui primam illam dignitatem perdidimus ne secundo remedio vti velle ad salutem sed coelestia scripta quasi frustrà ac vanè posita dispicere Consider what extreme m Vide Euseb lib. 3. cap. 33. de Papiae Paradoxis traditione fulcitis madnesse it is that wee who haue lost that first dignity of purity should refuse to vse the second remedy for our Saluation by contemning those heauenly writings as if they were giuen in vaine and for no vse Thus in stead of the folly which you obiect S. Chrisostome requites you with the note of no lesse then extreme madnesse Iab Where is the perpetuall n Pag. 104. 105. Virginity of the B. Mother after the sacred birth of the Sonne of God written in the Scripture What is it but à perpetuall tradition of Gods Church S. Augustine saith it cannot be clearly proued out of Scripture that Heretiques returning to the Church should not be rebaptized and yet the Church hath forbidden the same Shall we tearme this prohibition sleeuelesse Ma. The perpetuall Virginity of the blessed Mother is no matter of saluation whether we beleiue it or no. Yet are we of that opinion because as we read not any thing to the
his owne Ma. This shift is fetch'd beyond the circumference of all probable Appararance Hee speakes in the e In Pref. lâ—b Salomonis present not in the preterperfect tense of the Church then being Legit ECCLESIA sed eos inter Canonicas Scripturas non recipit Yea by way of toleration he deliuers his minde permissiuely thus Legat Ecclesia ad edificationem plebis yet with this Limitation non ad authoritatem dogmatum Ecclesiasticorum confirmandam f De Ciuit. Dei lib. 18. cap. 38. Yea S. Augustine himselfe confesseth that one and the same man may write some thinges historica diligentia which though proceeding from himselfe may serue ad vbertatem cognitionis and other things ex inspiratione diuina which must be receiued ad authoritatem religionis Iab Those g Pag. 43. wordes come short of your summe to proue your Protestant distinction of the Canon of Manners and Canon of faith Ma. I grant Saint Hieromes sentence doth not deliuer these wordes in so many explicite sillables yet doth it necessarily imply as much in the implicite sence The Church readeth them for the edification of the people therefore they are in the Canon of Manners and serue to the bettering of knowledge The Church receiueth them not amongest the Canonicall Scriptures Therefore they are not in the Canon of faith as tending to th' authoritie of Religion Iab Euerie booke h Ibid. that may bee read for edification in the Church may not bee termed a rule of Manners What is iust with the rule of Manners is certainly good But actions aacording to these bookes wee speake of the Knight granteth may bee wicked For example to kill himselfe is a thing vnlawfull yet it is conformable to those actions that he saith are praysed in the Macchabees How then can they bee the Canon and Rule of Manners Min. Besides the Primarie and Diuine Canon of Manners properly so called I meane the Canonicall Scripture which is absolutely to bee receiued as wholy authenticall by and in it selfe there is also a Subordinate Ecclesiasticall rule which by vertue of Concordance is so farre to bee admitted for a rule as it is consonant to the first Thus the Macchabees from i So we call that awedge of Gold wherein there is some drosse the best and greatest part which is certainly good may deriuatiuely receiue the Denomination of the Canon of Manners albeit some little portion thereof be not leuelled and squared according to the first vnerrable squire This Deuiation though it exclude not the reading of the rest which may serue as a Subsidiarie promoter of edification yet can it not but debarre the whole from the Supremacie of k In Apocriphis etsi inuenitur aliqua veritas tamen propter multa falsa nulla est Canonica authoritas Aug. de Ciuit. Dei lib. 15. cap. 23. Canonicall esteeme Ma. Sir It is your courtesie thus to explane your selfe Yet vnder correction you doe not well to flie after the Doctors Lure It is sufficient for you that Saint l A Diuo Hieronimo extra Canonicos libros supputantur inter Apocripha locantur c. Ad Hieronimi limaÌ„ reducenda sunt tam verba Conciliorum quam Doctorum Caietan ad fin comment in l. hist Vet. Test Hieromes vndeniable testimonie hath explaned Saint Augustines Si Sobriè by which though the toleration of the Macchabees bee permitted yet the Canonization is vtterly m Maximè propter istos Martyres Machabaeos disanulled It belongeth to his taske to prooue them to bee of the Diuine Canon which hee shall more easily attempt then accomplish seeing Saint Augustine himselfe confesseth that the Ancient Iewes vtriusque tabulae custodes did not receiue them as they did the Law the Prophets and the Psalmes So that it will bee a point of no small difficultie without some Night-Ghosts reuelation to shew by what warrant or meanes the Church of Christ was after moued to adopt them Iab I could n Pag. 58. ioyne with Saint Augustine other Fathers no lesse ancient then hee canonizing the same bookes but his testimonie may suffice alone which bringeth with it the authoritie of the Church in his dayes Nick. Alas poore Doctor Bragge this is but a coppie of your countenance you will make but a mean liuing by singing Solus cum Solo I trowe Master Vicar wil bee able to vie fathers as fast as you Your Mastershippe may perhaps finde a Counter for the Post but you dare not for your eares bee in at the Payre Ma. Verily I thinke Clichtoueus was more then halfe a Prophet hee doth so visibly deschipher the guise of our Disputant as if hee were here present o Iudocus Clictoueus in Epist ad Franciscum Molinum Alij sunt saith hee qui non nisi suo credunt consilio quod semel asseruerunt volunt oraculo solidius vt haberi Alij autem authoritatula vna aut vnius scribentis dicto vt equus capistro retinentur caeteros aspernaentur qui ea de re aut dixerunt aut scripserunt Min. Sir it is faire play to till this gamester on by reseruing the best card till the last tricke The Ancient records of the Church shall be produced when they shall strike all dead for the present I thinke I shall sufficiently discharge my part if I make good the Knights argument out of S. Augustines ground to ratifie our conclusion Ma. Herein shall you not bestow your paines amisse Min. Then thus p Counters pa. 41 In Holy Canonicall Scripture there is no Diuine precept or permission to bee found that either to gaine Immortalitie or to escape any peril we may q Placuit vt hi qui per ferrum aut praecipitium sibi ipsis mortem inferunt nulla pro illis in oblatione commemoratio fiat Concil Bracaren 1. ca. 34 make away with our selues But Razias mentioned in the Macchabees is commended for a fact of this kind Ergo r His non adhibetur fides in quibus etiam contra fidem librorum Canonicorum quaedam leguntur Aug. de Ciuit. Dei lib. 18. cap. 38 they are not Canonicall Iab It was Å¿ Pag. 49. farre from Saint Augustines grauitie to read the Macchabees with so little Sobrietie as to thinke that Razias was praysed for killing himselfe t Pag. 51. writing against the Circumcellians hee doth often teach and largely prooue that Razias was not commendable for that fact which the Scripture did report not prayse Min. I will not presse you with tautologies neyther would I willingly bring Lyram ad Asinum vnlesse you were a better Musitian Lyraes record is extant that u Lyra in 2. Mach. cap. 14 the Scripture of that Booke which is receiued by the Church to be read for the Information of Manners doth not seeme to reprooue Razias but rather to commend him for killing himselfe c. Iab This is x Pag. 51. false and against the minde of Saint Augustine who
other doth giue may not be the best which is to erre according to the Analogy of place not of faith Ma. The Knights answere is not yet refelled If the Doctrine of true faith depend vpon the soliditie of exposition it cannot be but they who may errein the Analogy of exposition of place may likewise faile in the Analogy of faith Laeso fuÌ„damine nutat Tota domâ— Iab This Distinction you n Ibid. vnderstand not when manie Fathers of the Church agree in the same exposition of Scripture without the contradiction of anie the same is to be thought the vndeniable sence of that place Ma. The Doctrine of the Romish Church is far more strict then you seeme to allow If the credit of the Ihesuite Chauasius o Profess orth sid §. 37 may beare any sway you are to stand to that exposition of Scripture and that vpon oath which is Secundum vnanimem consensum Patrum whereas you content your selfe with the agreeable consent of manie p Ad quem ibimus Fathers in the same exposition of Scripture How you will auoid perjurie or what time you had need take to the making of a Sermon following this rule I referre me to your most serious and sober thoughts he had need haue a good Librarie that will auoid the censure of your Church yea he may perchance burne all his bookes before hee shall set them agreed In this point wee will giue allowance to your position hauing produced more demonstratiue authorities for the nullifying then you for the ratifying of Purgatorie I confesse it will bee no easie matter for vs to prooue a contradiction in the exposition of the place especially amongest those who neuer heard of that Commentitious figment for how should they gain say that which was not so much as questioned in the more Ancient times It sufficeth vs that your sence hath no generall iustification in neyther of your grounds which are otherwise interpreted by the most and not peremptorily paraphrased for your purpose by anie of the best ranke Iab Caluins q Pag. 70 Arianizing wit though hee may find some plausible euasion cannot be excused of haereticali call rashnesse who dareth expound this text of Scripture Ego Pater vnum sumus I and the father are one of vnitie of consent and will not of nature and substance adding that the Ancients did abuse the same to proue the consubstantialitie of the Sonne of God Seing the vniforme consent of Fathers haue canonized that meaning of the words he cannot be a true Christian that will not neyther was Caluin that did not submit his Iudgement thereunto Ma. May the Fathers to proue this or that Catholique veritie bring in places of Scripture that haue other sence yea maie the sence that one or other doth giue not bee the best though the Doctrine thereby proued be true then iudge how base and iniurious an imputation you lay vpon Caluin fetching him by force within the compasse of hereticall Arianizme who was euer most aduerse to that viperous brood hauing no other crime to challenge him withall besides a religious modestie in forbearing to rack a parcell of Scripture for the vttering of that euidence which was more naturally deputed to the deliuery of other places The sacred writ is so plentifull in proofes for the confutation of that diuellish surmise that hee held it no good discretion to rayse a suspition of penurie or doubt by insisting vpon that which being not fully pregnant might bee auoided by the indifferent sence of another clause where the same phrase did occurre You may as well challenge Bellarmine Valentianus and other Ihesuites who in their Treatises concerning the Trinitie doe not approoue of manie interpretations of Scripture which were by the Fathers somewhat too liberally produced against the same Heresie of Arianisme As for the place now questioned the judgement of Caluin is that the word vnum cannot absolutely euince an Indiuidual vnitie of Essence because in the seuententh of Iohn vers 22. Christ prayeth vnto his father concerning the elect that they may be one as we are one where the word vnum cannot inforce an vnitie of Essence in respect of the elect and therefore not inferre an Indiuidual vnitie in respect of the father This Inducement of Caluin thus grounded vpon Analogie of Scripture doth at least acquit him from your Taxation of Rashnesse Might it stand with your leasure to peruse his diuers confutations of Arianisme you should find him plentifull in alleadging manie other more direct places to that end Iab Hee cannot bee a true Christian that would not submit his Iudgement to the vniforme consent of the Fathers Ma. This is your vsuall ostentation this is one of the bombasted Articles of your new Romish faith If this may be allowed as the touch stone of Christianitie all the sort of you will soone appeare to bee most professedly periured aboue all other Votaries in the world There are diuers places of Scripture expounded with vniforme consent of Fathers in cases of no small moment which are at this day r D. Mâ—rta de Iurisdict part 4. pag. â—73 Maldon com in Mat. 19. Platin. in Steph. vita rejected by your Church When you pull out this beame of Periurie out of your owne eye you may with better licence point at the mote of Rashnesse which you cast vpon Caluins brow Iab The vniforme consent of Fathers Å¿ Pag. 71 doth not require that euerie one none excepted should expressely teach the same Doctrine for then scarse in anie point could this vniforme consent be proued seeing all write not of the same point but it sufficeth that manie haue taught it without the contradiction of the rest and such is the exposition of this place for Purgatorie and for the dead in the next world Nick. O how curious the Doctor is in his limitations and preuentions hee would haue made a good Lawyer able to set all his neighbours together by the eares Hee is content to chop Logick with you by the clocke but to keepe himselfe from push of Pike he sets a dead hedge and a double quicke set in the way When he boasts of vniforme consent hee meanes not euerie father none excepted when hee speakes of teaching he supposeth it may be collaterally and not expresly Besides he would haue you learne that all who expound the same place doe not write of the same point Nay more if the corruptions of latter times haue put a Quillet vpon any learned mans pen vnlesse it bee contradicted by the writers of former ages who did not so much as suspect any such vnhatched Nouelties it must passe as currant not to be opposed whithout the tincture of heretical rashnesse This I take to be the project of Iabals mazed speech Ma. By my white Staffe the earnest of my neighbours loue and the Ensigne of mine office well noted He would lead vs into a Labyrinth and wot you what the taile of his assertion sauors more of
will draw in a Purgatorie perforce in my mind they should doe better for the auoiding of partialitie to let the bodie which hath not the least part in the pleasure and fomenting of sin haue a turne or two in those flames as well as the soule Shall the terrestriall part sleepe in peace and shal the spirituall part pay so deare for the workes of the flesh This were to giue the bodie a l Pares in culpa Pares in poena priuiledge and prerogatiue aboue the soule Min. Nick You digresse I was about to craue his answer to m Art 18. pag. 86. b. Roffensis his relation who sayth that the Greekes to this day doe not beleeue there is a Purgatorie and that in their Commentaries there is verie litle or no mention thereof at all Yea the Latines saith hee did not all of them together receiue the truth of this matter but by litle and litle Whereunto Polydore also seemeth to assent Iab You n Pag. 92 omit that which you haue in your Latine Originall Quantum opinor as I now thinke or ghesse sayth that Bishop which is lesse then a new nothing to hang on your sleeue For though Roffensis at that time had such a thought not hauing then so fully perused the Graecian Fathers yet afterwardes in that verie Booke when hee commeth to speake of Purgatorie he doth affirme the contrarie in expresse tearmes Ma. He hath a verie simple Naperie who is faine to wipe his nose with a Foxes taile Did that Bishop write in such hast without perusall that hee had no leisure to giue a dash to so short a sentence in a point so materiall hauing before the finishing of his worke found the bush that could stoppe so maine a gappe Did his wisdome giue such reines to his vnruly pen to say and vnsay without a check What ancient Greeke Father doth hee nominate to contradict his former opinion Iab Whereas o Pag. 93 Luther did obiect that the Greeke Church did not beleeue Purgatorie he maketh this answer I take it you meane the vulgar multitude of that Nation not the Fathers of the Graecian Church for that the Graecian Fathers fauour Purgatorie the workes they left behind them doe witnesse Min. Without all question Purgatorie was greatly in their fauour when they could not so much as once vouchsafe to name it throughout their manie bookes Had they beeleued it their Charitie would haue compelled them to reueale it Your Roffensis I perceiue was then in a desperate case least Tradition shold be also wrung out of his clutches he is inforced to trie his wits and loe how gaily hee distinguisheth I take it you meane the vulgar multitude of that Nation not the Fathers as if they would not haue receiued it if their Doctors had deliuered it Is it not a rare Iest to search for the Records of faith inter Idiotas Could they haue beene raysed from their graues to testifie that by word of mouth which they were before vnable to write the Bishops surmise had beene more reasonable And what tokens of loue doth he bring from those Fathers to Purgatorie forsooth they mention Sacrifice and Prayer for the dead that so the soules departed being yet as they thought somewhat recluse might more speedily enjoy the beatificall vision of God as also that condigne prayse might be rendred to the Almightie by the aide of whose grace they were enabled to die in the faith Iab Whereas p Ibid. Luther obiecteth that Purgatorie could not be proued out of the Scripture Roffensis replieth that to pray for soules in Purgatorie is a most Ancient custome of the Church Nick. I promise you a wittie answere and to good purpose T is an ill Horse that can neyther wey-hey nor wagge his taile Your faction were litle beholding to him if hee would not say that it is a most ancient custome All the craft lies in the catching of this swift-wing'd proofe Could the Doctor come to lay salt vpon the taile of it we should soone haue it in our dish Min. Saint Paul who was rapt vp into the third Heauen should know as much concerning the most abstruse mysteries as the best He writing ex professo to the q 1. Thes 4. Thessalonians touching the state of the dead and prefacing his speech with Nolumus vos ignorare de dormientibus speakes not one word of this new-found Land nor of any ransome to bee payed for their enlargement who are there imprisoned Yea more he closeth that discourse with this Epilogue that hee would haue them comfort one another with these sayings which had not beene so properly or seasonably spoken were there a Purgatorie and penall satisfaction to be vndergone after this life The foolish Virgins that cried r Mat. 25.8 Date nobis de oleo vestro were non-suted with a nenō sufficiat nobis vobis So that the deceased estate of your declining Purgatorie receiuing so small a subsidiarie supply from that high sacred Court of the Apostolical Synod must be faine to stand to Roffensis his temporizing credulitie Iab You ſ Pag. 93. 94 haue the whole Armie of the Christian Church in all ages set in battaile-aray against you the blessed Apostles with pikes as I may say of Diuine authoritie standing in the forefront Ma. Indeed if Roffensis were an Apostle the Sett is yours He saith it is a most auncient custome of the Church but he falters in his euidence Iab To impeach t Pag. 91. the authority of the Church is the badge of heresie to condemne her custome is insolent madnesse Nick. This is your Ladies A.B.C. your Church is as much beholding vnto you as was Pythagoras to his Schollars In stead of Ipse dixit you will haue Ipsa dixit Iab What man u Pag. 94. 95. that hath any bit either of diuinity in his head or Christianity in his heart or Sobriety in his tongue would accuse Catholickes for esteeming the Ipsa dixit of the Church as much as the Pythagorians did the Ipse dixit of their Master Why should not this Ipsa the Mother of Christians the Spousesse of the Holy Ghost this Pillar and Foundation of truth this Daughter of God the Father washed with the bloud of his Sonne that shee might in her doctrine haue no blemish of errour Why should not her word I say be more esteemed of by her children then the saying of Pythagoras a Pagan Philosopher was with his Schollars Nick. I aske the banes of matrimony betweene Water and Woort Doe you think to out-swagger vs with your Rhetorique then I tell you Doctor your Romish Church is not the right subiect for those sweet attributes She is not the Mother of Christians but the Foster-dame of Heretiques Not the Spouse of the holy Ghost but the Minion of Antichrist Not the Pillar but the Poller of truth Not the Daughter of God the Father but the Bastard of Sathan Not washed in the bloud of his Sonne but polluted
with the loathsome staines of Heathenish Idolatry If words will carry it wee will roll in our figures as well as you Iab Oh what x Pag. 95. glorious Fathers and Doctors could I name famous in former ages for sanctity and learning that submitted their iudgements to the sayings of the Church Ma. O what a glorious Church were your Antichristian Synagogue did it not dissent from that primitiue purity of doctrine whereunto those famous Doctors and holy Fathers did subscribe then were it insolent madnesse in any to reiect her authority Iab Little y Pag. 96. Iudgement or piety doe you shew in your iest at our Ladies A. B. C as if the authority of the Church were not the Alphabet and Christ-Crosse row in which all Christians ought and all ancient Christians did learne to read and beleeue the Scriptures S. Augustine the Phoenix of wits the Mirrour of learning did hee not learne in this booke Truly saith he I would not belieue the Gospell did not the Churches authority mooue mee vnto it Min. Sooner shal you perswade vs that a foule noysome Stye is a faire princely pallace then that your Romish Seminary is that Church of which S. Augustine spake And yet must that holy Father bee z Non disputas ad idem rightly vnderstood He spekes there of his Introduction to the faith not of the Foundation thereof Being before a Manichy he could not of himselfe haue found the way out of the darknesse of that blind heresy vnlesse the Catholique Church had lent him her hand to conduct him to those Christall streames by the a Ecclesia proposuit Euangelium Euangeliu composuit fidem vertue whereof his eyes were opened and his mynd enlightened He had beene like enough to haue passed by that Liuing fountaine without regard had not their b Causa sine qua non direction who had made triall of the soueraignty therof persuaded him to make his repayre thither for the like successe Wherefore he should haue bene very vngrateful for so irrequitable a benefit had he concealed the meanes whereby that his so great happines was so luckily occasioned What good he receyued from the Church he freely acknowledgeth yet is he not so vniust as to make his requital with the Scriptures c Non dicit Nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas Moueret sed Commoueret wronge Yea so farre is he from subiecting those infallible Oracles to the Iudgement of Men that in the fourth Chapter of the same d Aug. Cont. Epist funda booke he challengeth the Manichyes to produce Scripture for their opinionatiue error with protestation that he would then forsake the name of the Church the Consent of people and Nations and returne vnto them So that howsoeuer the authority of the Church was an allectiue inducement to drawe him to the Ghospell yet was the Ghospell a farre more potent instrument in the founding and setling of the spirituall edifice of his faith vppon the solidity whereof he did principally and most confidently depend Ma. If it had not bene for the tydings of the little e 2. Reg. 5.3 Mayd Naaman had not gone to the Prophet in Samaria by whose praescript he was healed Shall we therefore saye that she had any hand in the curing of his leprosy No doubt her courtesie was not forgotten but the mayne homage and rewarde was offered to the man of God Had it not bene for the f Ioh. 4.42 Woman the Samaritans had not come vnto Christ but they heard him speake before they knew him to be Christ then loe they beleiued not because of her wordes but because themselues had heard him Iab The g Pag 57. Ladies of your Church learne forsooth of the spirit they trust to ipse dixit who will teach them which is the Scripture They are the sheepe of Christ and knowe his voice from that of strangers Theise are your Ministers faire promises Yet I dare giue them my worde though they haue the best spirit that euer possessed any man of your Church notwithstanding they maie erre damnably mistacke Scripture thinck that to be true translation which is indeed erroneous I see h Pag. 98. no remedy for them if they meane to be saued from the Deluge of errours but to fly to the Arke of Noe printed at Venice Your sheepe must learne in an hebrew Grammar to vnderstand their Pastors they must nibble on those rootes of Iury wherewith it would be great pitty your rare Creatures should be troubled Min. As touching our translations of the Bible though they admit a variety of style and phrase yet they concurre in a Sympathizing vnity of matter and sence They all accord in one issue without contradiction they all direct by one and the same waye to one and the same end so that the most vnlearned if he haue not a desire to goe astray cannot tread amisse There being but one choice of truth proposed there is hardly any possibility of being deceiued The Ladyes are not ignorant with what princely Cost and Care that Worke hath bene lately reuised by such graue learned and industrious persons who for knowledge in the originall tongues were best esteemed and for their sincerity least to be suspected Wherefore this hauing past the test of strictest discusse being allowed by the Church and vncontrolled by the most prying and Censorious aduersarie they are assured of the infallible truth thereof By the sweetnes of the fruite they euidently see that it sprang from a sound Roote by the illumination of the i 1. Ioh. 2.20 spirit which leadeth into all trueth by the ministry of the worde of God ratifyed with the k In Euangelijs omnis veritas omnis manifestatio veritatis Origen agreement and explaned with the perspicuous reasons of the Scripture it selfe by the efficacy thereof in captiuating their vnderstandings vnto the diuine will and their carnall affections to the regiment of a supernaturall lawe by often reading which begetteth experience and by hearty prayer which hath a promise of effectuating their zealous desires they are infallibly sure that their translation is true and their vnderstanding agreable to the rule of faith Moreouer the principles of faith with are absolutely and necessarily to be knowne beleiued and practized of all men are there blazed with such a l Aug de doct chris l. 2. c. 9. radiant lustre that without affected ignorance they are obuious to euery eye Though perhaps the genuine interpretation of some places of lesse consequence be sometymes mistaken yet is not the foundation raced so that their error is neither pernicious nor damnable Ma. If our Ladyes thus furnished in their mother tongue hauing no recourse to the hebrew text be in such danger of errour in what a pittifull plight are those creatures who are tyed to their vulgar latin translation which they vnderstand not How shall they trye the spirits of their teachers hauing so crooked a rule which they know not how to
vse May not such a Pilot as Dr. Iabal steere their vessells vpon the rockes and sandes how shall they know that this or that is the sence or Tradition of the Catholique church I see no remedy for them but to fly to Socrates Zozomen Eusebius Theodoret and the other Antiquaries for releife and then they must be well skilled in the tongues Nick. Yf there should be a grammar schoole erected for the feminine gender it would be a braue world Iabal would sue for the Vsher-shipp O how featly would he discipline their Albes There would be Tollo tollis sustuli The Girles will neuer consent to so harsh a motion they had rather speake true english at home then make false latin at Schoole vnder such an yll-faced Tutor Iab Had not m Pag. 58. Luther the first fruites of the protestants spirit Yet he erred most grossely that euen Zuinglius his fellow-witnes against the Pope doth giue this testimony against him Thou Luther doest corrupt the worde of God thou art seene to be a manifest corrupter of the holy Scriptures If he be so corrupt what translation or spirit of your church may your Ladies trust Ma. These are not the first fruites of your witlesse malice neither was Luther the first Coyner of our protestant faith which doth carry the right stampe of the most auncient sacred and primitiue truth Let the Scripture be the arbitrator of his writings then will your slaunder be soone silenced and supprest with shame As he was a man he might be subiect to some particular error which if Zuinglius reproued by warrant of the Scriptures it proceeded from his loue to the truth not out of hatred to his person And haue there not bene worse broyles among your scholasticall Diuines Haue not the positiue Constitutions of former Councells bene repealed by those that succeded Haue not the Popes Decrees bene censured and discarded by their successors Where was your Catholique spirit all that while It is in vaine to looke for a n Foelix qui minimis vrgetur heauen vppon earth Shall the whole fabrick be puld downe because a Wyndowe or a Chimney or a Tyle is misplaced He is a good Architect that leaues nothing to mend Zuinglius his reproofe may informe you that our Church is more deuoted to the Scriptures verity then to the most prime mans authority Iab This is o Pag. 98. 99. the felicity of our Catholike Ladies that by the worde of the Church they know certainlie which is the letter of the scripture Which your Ladyes like stray-sheepe must seeke on the topp of craggy mountaines as the Knight tearmeth the Hebrew language not without eminent daunger of an eternall downefall Nick. Here is a doe with the Ladies falling Yf you were their Gentleman Vsher should they not haue a stout supporter Stand to your tackling good Doctor Iab There is such a Ibid. confusion in your Church that as Irenaeus noted of auncient Heretikes one shall scarce find two that will spell the same sence out of the same wordes Ma. Why hath God giuen such diuersity of guiftes to his Church but that there should be q Quid in diuinis eloquiis largius vberius potuit diuinitus prouideri quam vt eâ—dem verba pluribus inte ligantur modu Aug. de Doct. Chris lib. 3. variety of applications Is not the Kings Daughter in fimbrijs aureis circumamicta r Psal 45.14 varietatibus Clad in a vesture wrought about with diuerse colours If the stuffe be the same t is no great matter though the lace and embrodery be not laid in all alike What contradictions can can you specify in their expositions Iab These foure Å¿ Pag. 99. wordes Hoc est corpus meum contayning not aboue fourteene letters you haue deuised aboue fower times fortie expositions so different as the Authors of the one damne the Fauorers of the other to Hell Ma. A fitt receptacle for all such loud lyars who care not what Crudityes they vomit vppon the bosome of the most eminent and innocent persons without either feare or shame Min. They that are conuersant in the writings of your Catholique Authors know that there is allmost as much difference among them about the three letters of this one sillable Hoc as is amongst the Protestants in the whole sentence Ma. If Mercury himselfe were amongst them with his rodd of truce all his Rhetorique would hardly teach them their t Quid dem quid non dem renuis tu quod iubet alter Concordes Iabal forgets how Leo the second condemned Pope u In Epist ad Imperat. ad fin 6. Synod Honorius for an Heretique Had Zuinglius serued Luthers bookes as Pope x Platina in Sabin Senens lib. 4. pag. 23. Sabinian did the workes of Gregorie his predecessor wee should haue an outcry against fiery spirits then he might more tolerably haue demaunded What shal your poore Ladies do in this combate Iab They may y Pag. 99. rashly perswade themselues that this or that exposition is the best but certaine of any thing they can neuer bee till they admit the Catholike Ladies A.B.C. the Churches authoritie learning of her the sence of whom they tooke the text Nick. When the men of Thessalonica z Act. 17.11 tried the Apostles Doctrine whether it were true or no did they send a Legate to learne the judgement of the Church of Rome Vnto whom did they repaire but vnto a Scrutabantur Scripturas him that had the wordes of life Our Ladies are not so raw in the Scriptures but that if there were such difference amongst our Ministers as you suppose they can take that which doth best agree with the Analogie of Faith and the Rule of Charitie The spirit of God is not so fixed to the Doctors chaire but that it is most free to make euen them of the lowest forme b Super Senes intellexi quia mandata tua quaesiui Psa 119 v. 100. wise vnto saluation Ma. I haue heard a worthie speech of Panormitan often alleaged to this purpose that there is more credit to be giuen to one c Plus credendum viro Laico afferenti Scripturas c. Laick that bringeth Scripture then to a generall Councell representing the vniuersall Church if it haue not the warrant of the word It is not long time since I read how Paphnutius by this meanes preuailed against a whole Synode and stopped the passage of the warrantlesse superstition of single life And not without great reason For if antiquitie be to bee respected or consent to be regarded the Prophets and Apostles haue the superioririe in both Min. Whereas he complaines of confusion and danger of misinterpretation for the magnifying of Tradition he forgets the censure of d Lib. 3. Cap. 2 Irenaeus vpon the prime Heretiques for the same quarrell e Difficilis paucisque conueniens eruditis Aug. aduers Iulian. l. 5. c. 1 Iulian the Pelagian thought by
objecting the perplexed difficultie of the Scriptures to haue brought his cause to a forraigne barre Notable is that speech of Cyprian so much applauded by Saint f In Epist ad Pomperanum cont Epist Stephani Augustine In compendio est sayth hee apud religiosaes mentes errorem deponere inuenire atque erure veritatem Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus Si canalis aquae deficiat nonne ad fontem pergitur Si in aliquo nutauerit veritas ad originem Dominicam Euangelicam Apostolicam traditionem reuertamur Inde surgat actus nostri ratio vnde ordo origo surrexit Saint Ambrose denies your pretended difficultie Paulus saith hee in plerisque ita se ipse in suis exponit Sermonibus vt is qui tractat nihil inueniat quod adijciat suum aut si velit aliquid dicere Grammatici potius quam Disputatoris fungatur munere When as Cresconius pressed Saint Augustine with Cyprians authoritie what was his answere Literas Cypriani saith g Cont. Crescon li. 2. c. 32 he non vt Canonicas habeo sed eas ex Canonicis censidero quod in eis diuinarum Scripturarum authoritati congruit cum laude eius recipto quod autem non congruit respuo The same Father writing vpon the seuen and fiftieth Psalme shewes the like resolution Auferantur chartae nostrae procedatin medium Codex Dei Let our Writings stand aside and let the booke of God be brought forth This was that Vmpier vnto whose authoritatiue sentence h Extant Apostolici libri Prophetarum Sanctiones quae nos erudiunt quid de rebus sacris sentâ—re debeamus Theodoret lib. c. 7. Constantine wished the Bishops to stand for the appeasing of the differences which arose amongest them in the Councell of Nice This is that i 2. Pet. 1.19 shining light whereunto Saint Peter wils vs to attend and hereunto wee are the rather incouraged because Christ himselfe hath promised k Ioan. 7. v. 17 that he who hath a faithfull heart and an obedient mind to doe his will cognascet de Doctrina vtrum ex Deo sit So that if the Gospell be hid l 2. Cor. 1.3 Non propter seruos fidelis sed propter fines diuitiae Scripturarum sub figillo clauduntuâ— Aquin in Apoc. cap. 1. ex Ambrosio it is to them that perish whose minds the God of this world hath blinded that the light of the Gospell should not shine vnto them Nick. You haue giuen him Towe enough for this Distaffe If I might bee now so bold as to interpose a question I would request the Doctor to resolue me in this Our Sauiour at his last Supper gaue the Cup saying m Mat. 26.27 Bibite ex hoc omnes The Romish Interpreters appropriate it to the Priest only Saint Paul teacheth that mariage is n Heb. 13.4 honourable amongest all men they say that it is dishonorable to the Cleargie Christ tels his Apostles that the Kings of the Nations beare rule ouer them vos autem non sic They say that Cardinals are more than o Papa Sceptra ligonibus equat Kings fellowes and that the Pope hath power in his great toe to spurne them from their regiments The Law of God teacheth vs that Images are not to bee worshipped they make their Proselytes fall prostrate before them Saint Paul saith Nemo vos iudicet in cibo potu they make it more capital then adulterie to eat flesh vpon p Video preceptum esse ieiuntiâ— quibus autem diebus in Euangelicis lâ—teris non video definitum Aug. Epist 86 friday The Scripture is peremptorie that we are iustified by faith without the works of the Law they magnifie the sufficiencie yea the surplussage of workes Now in this combate what shall your poore Ladies doe whom shall they beleeue If the Church bee q Eph. 2.20 built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles then are these the Iudges by whome the truth must be tried Iab You r Pag. 99 neede I feare the remembrance Zeno gaue to a talker that was often laughed at for his folly Loqui lingua in mentem intincta to speake with your tongue dipped in wit not in wine Nick. You haue lapp'd so long with your saucie tongue in the Bowle of wit that you are now faine to feed vpon verie drie conceipts If your perished braines were taken out and washed in a neat cup of white wine your wit would bee farre more briske Haue you forgot the old Fryars complaint In Cratere meo Thetis est coniuncta Lyaeo Est Dea iuncta Deo sed Dea maior eo Nil valet is vel eanisi cum fuerint Pharisaea Haec duo propterea sit Deus absque Dea Bacchus and Thetis in my Cup are met Bacchus and Thetis striue she winnes the set Nor God nor Goddesse please me mixt in one I should like Bacchus were pale Thetis gone Doth not your Iouiall Genius fall once a moneth into such a veine Ma. My Masters I feare we had need send for a Stickler to part the fray Your iangling will make Master Vicar forget what he was about to say Mee thought I heard him naming Saint Ambrose Min. That which I had thought to produce as an vpshot of the point in hand from that Father was this Å¿ Amb. de virg lib. 4. Nos noua omnia saith he quae Christus non docuit iure damnabimus quià Fidelibus Christus via est Si ergo Christus noÌ„ docuit quod docemus etiam nos detestabile iudicus S. Chrysostome also tels t In Rom. hom vlt. vs that there would bee no offences nor differences vnlesse some opinion were broathed contrarie to the Apostolicall Doctrine And u In Mat. hom 25 similiter in Leuit. cap. 5 Origens wordes are these Sicut omne aurum quod fuerit extra templum non est sanctificatum Sic omnis sensus qui fuerit extra diuinam Scripturam quamuis admirabilis videatur quibusdam non est sanctus As the gold which was without the Temple was not hallowed So neyther is the sence which is without the verge of scripture to be approued So that touching prayer for the dead wee saie with Saint Hierome x Hieron in Titum Sine authoritate Scripturarum garrulitas non habet fidem And with S. y De officijs l. 1 Ambrose Quae in Scripturis Sacris non reperimus quemadmodum volumus vsurpare possimus And with Tertullian Nobis curiositate opus non est post Iesum Christum nec inquisitione post Euangelium Cum credimus nihil desideramus vltra credere Hoc enim prius credimus non esse quod vltra credere debemus And with z In Decret 11 Quaest 3. Gratian Is qui praeter voluntatem Dei vel praeter id quod in Sanctis Scripturis euidenter praecipitur vel dicit aliquid imperat tanquam falsus
testis Dei aut Sacrilegus habeatur Which Censure I can hardly perceiue how the Doctor wil shun seeing that without either euidence of Scripture or warrant of anie Primitiue Father he would a Stamen flaccidum arancosi pertexit Basil impose vs vnder the glorious title of his Church so super-stitious a Custome Nick. Their Romish Church is Magna Diana Ephesiorum of more principalitie then the rest her authority must out-sway Scriptures Fathers whatsoeuer else is of most sacred esteeme Iab Saint Irenaeus a b Pag. 120. most Ancient Bishop and Martyr who liued immediately after the Apostles dayes doth giue the former stile to the Roman Church planted by the most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul Ad quam propter potentiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem conuenire Ecclesiam which principalitâ—e you cannot imagine what else it may be besides the Primacie of Peter to whome Christ did make subiect all other Pastors and Churches by the light of which singular priuiledge bestowed on this Church in her first Pastor shee doth shine Velut inter ignes Luna minores And in this respect the Roman Church may be termed Diana Nick. It is not vnlike for shee hath turn'd you into a fugitiue and sencelesse Creature If you bee wearied in the Chase you know whom to thanke Ma. In my opinion Iabal is taken in his own toile tript in his own turne The Roman Church saith he shines as the Moone amongst the lesser starres He doth well to say as the Moone which is still in the change Shee that was a beautifull c Fuimus Troes Queene in the dayes of Irenaeus is now become a painted d Peiora nouissima primis Harlot prostituted to all manner of Impuritie Superstition hath blowne vpon Dianas Nimphes so that they can now no longer stand vpon tearmes of virginitie She that was Princesse amongst the Churches is made tributarie to Sathan her light is ecclipsed with Idolatrous positions and Antichristian practises She hath changed her e Tune lignei calices aurei Sacerdotes Nunc aurei calices lignei Sacerdotes Bernard wodden Chalices but she hath lost her golden Priests Min. Had Irenaeus taken Principalitie in your sence for an absolute spirituall and vniuersall preheminence and jurisdiction ouer al other Churches he would not haue beene so bold as to controle that great Victor chiefe Superintendent of so predominant a Sea You may probably imagine he intended no such necessarie subiection thereunto as would serue your turne seeing hee f Euseb li. 5. c. 23 joyned with those who did communicate with the Asian Churches notwithstanding the excommunication which the Pope had denounced against them The Church of Rome was then in the ful glittering with splendencie of Martyrdome wherefore hee sendeth the Heretikes with whom hee was confronted thither for light where the brightest rayes of orient truth were most conspicuous Had hee liued to see Turbanus that man of sinne with the furze-bush of superstitious Trumperies at his backe seated in your Moone hee would haue blessed himselfe at the sight of so strange a Metamorphosis Iab Heretikes g Pag. â—01 in all ages haue beene condemned by the Iudgement of the Roman See by the light of her authoritie they were forced to see the deformitie of their hellish pride This consideration mooued Saint Augustine to say that the Catholike Church deriued from the Apostolike See partly by the authoritie of Councels partly by the Consent of the World partly in the Maiestie of Miracles had obtained the height of authoritie frustra circum latrantibus haereticis Nick. Forward Children are seldome long-liued Wel-fare him that hath a winter-witte long a ripening Did you euer heare such an vnmellow kind of arguing That which Saint Augustine speakes of the Catholike Church hee applies to his Romish Synagogue Admit hee had spoken of Iabals Apostolike See as it then was Whence did it obtaine the height of authoritie but from the Consent of h Propter quod vnumquodque tale illud magis tale Councels and from the maiestie of truth Doth this make any thing for the Principalitie of Rome innouated which is now so farre from taking her authoritie from Councels that she disanulleth and ouerswayeth them at her pleasure So farre from receiuing countenance from the truth that shee discardeth the most sacred veritie which beareth not the Impresse of her partiall sences If I bee not deceiued Heretikes haue beene also confuted and condemned by Damascene Epiphanius Irenaeus and other Greeke Fathers as sufficiently as by the Popes of Rome It were wel if you would now dippe the tippe of your tongue in one dramme of witte to giue a better relish to your speech Min. Whilest Rome being the most opulent populous and eminent Citie of Christendome helde forth the burning Taper of Gods truth there was great reason she should bee held in especiall regard but now the Candlesticke being remoued it is as iust that her authoritie should bee lessened Saint i Lib. de peccat merit remis cap. 27. Augustine was not so Parasiticall as to flatter her in her errours There was a Case wherein bee did not sticke to say Magis me mouet authoritas Ecclesiarum Orientalium And Aeneas Siluius is not afraid to say that before the Nicene Councell there was no great respect had of Rome So thar it is not the person of Peter but her Constancy in the faith of Peter that did make her great Besides the greatnes whereof S. Augustine doth speake is not ascribed to the Roman but to the whole Catholique Church Ma. I doe not remember that we receyued either Scriptures Creede or the fower first generall Councels or any foundation of faith from the Roman Church Iab Perhaps k Pag. 102. your reason is because these Councells were held not in Europe but in Greece but the cause was the purity of one neuer falling into heresy and the infelicity of the other neuer to be without the inuentors of such Monsters Those heresies against which such Councells were called did spring vp in Greece This was the cause that the Orthodoxall Bishops of Greece in defence of trueth were often forced to fly for succour to the Roman Ma. Had there bene such Principality in the Papal Sea as you surmise those Heretiques would rather haue bene cited to the Romish Consistory and there receyued their doome Those worthie Patriarches Athanasius and Paulus sent not vnto the Pope as vnto one Supreame vnder God vppon earth ouer the flock of Christ but as vnto a Christian Bishop who was bound to interpose his best ayde for the Peace of the Church Besides those of Rome there also were other Bishops whose presence was there also required I hope you will not saie there was a superiority in all Min. Nay l In vita Bonifacij 3. Platina tells vs that the whole Greeke Church was so farre from yeilding to the Popes m It differed also in the obseruation of the