half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae et quia nō possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionē nō enim per literas traditā illam sed per viuam vocē When they are conuinced by Scripture they fall on accusing the Scriptures thēselues as if they were not as they ought to be or were not of authoritie and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered and that out of them the truth cānot be found by those who are ignorant of tradition for that it viz. the truth was not deliuered by letters but by word of mouth Is not this in part your plea at this day that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities that they receyue countenance whole authority quoad nos from the Church that the written Word without vnwritten traditions is not sufficient Thirdly there is no positiue Article of our faith which you your selues or the learnedst among you doe not hold and beleeue as Catholique therefore wee are on a sure ground euen by your owne confession To instance in most of the principall Articles First wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God you beleeue them also to bee so but adde vnto them the Apocrypha Secondly wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments in Hebrew and Greek to bee authenticall and of vndoubted authoritie you I hope beleeue so too but you adde that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also Thirdly wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith you beleeue so but adde thereunto the vnwritten word Fourthly we beleeue that Christ is the Head of his Church you beleeue so likewise but adde vnto him a visible Head the Pope Fiftly we beleeue that there are two places Heauen for them that shall bee saued and Hell for them that shall bee damned you beleeue so too but adde thereunto other places more Purgatorie Limbus patrum and Limbus infantum Sixtly wee beleeue that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth you beleeue so too but you adde that hee may bee analogically and relatiuely worshipped by Images Seuenthly we beleeue that we ought to call vpon God you beleeue so too but adde heereunto that you may call vpon Saints Eightthly we beleeue that Christ is our Mediator both of redemption and intercession you beleeue so too but you adde to him Angels and Saints vpon whose intercession and merits you in part relie Ninthly we beleeue that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vpon earth and pray in generall for the Church militant you beleeue so too but adde that they haue knowledge of our particular necessities and pray to God in speciall for vs. Tenthly we beleeue that Christ hath instituted two Sacraments in his Church Baptisme and the Eucharist you beleeue so too but adde to them fiue other Matrimonie Penance Ordination Confirmation and Extreme Vnction Eleuenthly we beleeue that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort that all those who worthily receiue them participate also of sanctifying grace you beleeue so too but adde that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere operato a worse Solecism in Diuinity than in Grammar and that God is tied vnto them so that all children dying without Baptism are necessarily damned Twelfthly wee beleeue that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administration of the Sacrament you beleeue so too but you adde that the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister Thirteenthly we beleeue that in the Eucharist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body you beleeue so too but adde that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnder certain Accidents the elements beeing transubstantiated Foureteenthly we beleeue that we are iustified and saued by the merits Passion of Christ you beleeue so too but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction Fifteenthly we beleeue that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vpon earth you beleeue so too but adde therunto that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also Sixteenthly we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds the Apostles the Nicene and that of Athanasius and the foure generall Councels you beleeue them also but adde a fourth Creed viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope and annexed to the Councell of Trent Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation you and in a manner all the Christians in the world hold as we And therefore our doctrine is Catholique according to Vincentius Rule quòd ab omnibus quòd vbique quòd semper whereas your additions to the Catholique faith were neuer maintained neither by all Christians in any Age nor by any Christians in all Ages Neither you nor all the Papists in the world are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith wherein you differ from vs to be Catholique And now let vs hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration Obiect 1. First you say it conuinceth not the vnderstanding and therefore is no demonstration Answer This obiection of yours sheweth that you need to be informed in your vnderstanding how a demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding It is not the property of a demonstration actually to conuince the vnderstanding but potentially or vertually The meaning of this Proposition A demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding is this that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man to assent to the conclusion the premises beeing before apprehended by him and euery demonstration is a Syllogisme and euery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon which the Astronomers demonstrate by the cause to weet the interposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man he must first haue the tearms expounded vnto him afterwards he must be taught that the Moon hath not light of her self but receiueth it from the Sunne thirdly that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines Fourthly it must be shewed how in such points called by Astronomers Caput cauda Draconis the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed whereby it comes to passe that by the interposition of the earth the Moon is debarred from receiuing light by the Sunne-beames And thus in the end the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth is eclipsed But the Moon in the points aboue-named viz. the head and taile of the Dragon is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth Ergo the Moon alwaies in those
Syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly You your self make the first part a question by it selfe for at the margent ouer against the first part Whether the Protestant Church was euer visible you write I will answer It was not which words can haue no Construction if you referre them to both parts or at all to the latter part to wit Whether the names can be a shewed M. Fisher. Let vs heare a Syllogisme D. Featly In this copulatiue proposition which you offer for a question and require mee to proue either you deny both parts or one onely if both I am to proue both one after the other if one onely then you grant the other A copulatiue is not true vnlesse both parts bee true Doe you deny both or one onely M. Fisher. I say they are but one for the later part is to expound the former for I meane by visible so visible that the names of such visible Protestants may bee shewed D. Featly This is to confound two distinct questions in one For a Church may haue bin visible and yet the names of such visible Professours not now to bee shewed M. Fisher. They are my words and I am best able to expound my owne meaning D. Featly An exposition which the construction of the words will not beare is not to be receiued But the construction of the words will not beare this your expositioÌ„ Therfore it is not to be receiued And is a coniunction copulatiue must adde some-what to that which goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men M. Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this if there were visible men certainly they may bee named Name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all ages D. Featly It seemes you are Nominalls rather then Realls you stand so much vpon naming Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professours of our Religions in all ages for ought I knowe the best way for vs is to bee all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all ages certainly they may bee named D. Featly That is a Non sequitur for the reasons beforenamed by mee What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no names at all M. Bolton Yet they haue descriptions and may bee knowne by some Periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali who are so called because their Head and Authour cannot bee named nor particularly described Yet the Authour was a visible man Are all visible mens names vpon Record Are all the Records that were in former times now to bee produced Heer diuers of Master Fishers company called Names names names D. Featly What Will nothing content you but a Buttery-booke You shall haue a Buttery-booke of names if you will stay a while Heere diuers of the Auditors wished D. Featly not to proceed any further in the disputation vnlesse Master Fisher would suffer him according to the lawes of all disputation first to conclude the first part of his copulatiue Queâ—stion and then the second Yet Doctor Featly ' desirous to bring the disputation to some better issue before he left it was content to yeeld to M. Fishers vnreasonable demand and conclude both parts of the copulatiue Question in one Syllogisme D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall is so visible that the Names of some Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the Protestants Church is so visible that the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith ceaseth D. Featly You haue a purpose M. Fisher to cauill you knowe my meaning well enough by the tearm perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue vntill his second Coming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shall bee so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Therefore it hath been so visible that the Names of the Professers thereof may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacy called Petitio principij D. Featly A demonstration à causâ or à priori is not petitio principii But such is my Argument Therefore my Argument is not petitio principii Is it not a sounder Argument to prooue the Visibility of the Professers from the truth of their faith than as you doo the truth of your faith from the Visibility of Professers Visible Professers argue not a right faith Hereticks Mahumetans and Gentiles haue visible professers of their impieties yet wil it not hence follow that they haue a right beleef On the contrary wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintains the true faith shall haue alwaies Professers more or less visible M. Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori D. Featly Shall you prescribe mee my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better than an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemy to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapons I list take you what buckler you can M. Fisher. A Proof à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori M. Alesbury Heer M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceeds à priori Is not a demoÌ„stration of the effect froÌ„ the cause more excellent than of the cause by the effect From this place and so forward it was agreed by the Disputants that the Arguments and Answers should be taken by one common Writer and that the Opponent Dr. Featly should set his hand to each seuerall Syllogism and the Respondent Mr. Fisher to his seuerall Answers Dr. Featly That Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee is so visible that the Names of the Professours thereof may be produced and shewed But the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible that their Names may be produced M. Fisher. I deny the Minor D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternal and perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be But the
caerula nostra contenti sint Either let them prouide better cheere and I will bee their guest or if they will needs bee mine let them take what they finde a short supper broke off before the principall intended and prouided dishes were serued in If this will not satisfie them I pray them to thinke that many times as some take a libertie to themselues to censure other mens actions and sleighten their indeuours so it is not vnlikely but that they may meete with others who will take the like libertie to censure their censures and contemne their contempts But so much am I obliged to your loue worthie Knight that you haue not onely giuen me an inkling that some except but also acquainted mee what they except against that after-noones encounter Their exceptions lie either against conferences in generall in point of Religion of which belike they say They neuer saw any good come or against the passages of this Conference in particular For Conferences in generall with the Aduersaries of our faith either to conuert them to the Truth or conuince them with the Truth wee haue not onely frequent precepts examples in Scripture but also an expresse Canon of our Church and an especial charge euen with increpation from his Maiesty in his Speech in the vpper House at the first Session in the last Parliament And if these were not shall we suffer Wolues to enter into our Folds and worry our dearest Lambs bought at the high price of our Redeemer's Bloud and that before our eyes and not open our mouthes for their rescue Can wee heare our noble Champions disgraced our blessed Martyres bloud of England trampled vpon as spilt in vain nay our dearest Mother which hath brought vs forth in Christ to bee proclaimed an harlot and all her children bastards nay damned miscreants as hauing no visibility of Church no possibility of saluation and none of vs vnsheath the sword of the Spirit in so good a quarrell O patientiam omni impatientiâ dignam Such patience would put a man out of all patience Such silence deserues a long and lowd declamation against it Is this to be ready to giue an account to euery man that demandeth a reason of the hope that is in vs Is this to stop the mouth of those who subuert whole houses by leading away captiue simple women loaden with iniquity and by our Eue-tempting Adams to eat the forbidden fruit Is this to conuince the gainsayers I feare and tremble when I reade the words of our Sauiour An hireling seeing the Wolf leaueth the sheep and fleeth and the Wolf catcheth them and scattereth the sheep I speak not of publick disputations within a State settled and resolued many yeers in point of Religion as ours hath been and is God be thanked but of priuate occasionall conferences for the satisfaction especially of persons of quality which as Laurentius truely collects without great offense to God and scandall to his Truth cannot sometimes bee anoided the Aduersaries growing confident vpon such seeming diffidence and refusall and clamorous vpon our silence Aristotle was wont to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is a shame for mee to hold my peace when Zenocrates takes vpon him to teach May not wee of the Ministery that are Christs maeniall seruants reflect in like manner on our selues and say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is a shame for me to be silent when Priests and Iesuites are so clamorous It is a shame for the Ministers of Christ to be backward to defend when the Agents of Antichrist are forward to oppugne our most holy faith nay when the Supporters of heresie and idolatry haue taken so much brasse from the Images which they worship to arme their own foreheads with that they dare challenge and braue Truth and Religion to her face Yea but say they in the words of Tertullian Quid promouebis disputator c. What shall we gain by confronting these men They wil not yeeld nor cease to blaspheme the way of truth though they bee neuer so plainly confuted Non persuadebis nec si persuaseris Yet the Truth is honoured in that shee hath Aduocates to plead her cause and these pleadings erunt testimonio contra eos shall bee an euidence against her Opposites at the Barre of Christ. The Pilot doth not alwaies bring the Ship safe to the Hauen nor the Chirurgion cure the wound nor the Physician recouer his Patient nor the Preacher gain his Auditory yet if hee do his part hee loseth not his reward with God nor approbation with men To labor for fruit is ours the fruit of our labor is Gods who will render to euery man according to his work not according to the successe thereof And therefore although the issue of Conferences should prooue no better sometimes than of Synods in the daies of Gregorie Nazianzene yet would not this excuse our neglect of so necessary a duty for God can gain by our losses and he attaineth his end euen in our failing at least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make the enemies of the truth vnexcusable And what if wee doo not winne them yet wee confirme both our selues and others that loue the Truth in the Truth And in this respect Conferences if they be aduisedly vndertaken and discreetly managed according to their Latine Etymologie alwaies conferre and conduce to some good end to speake nothing of the Conference at Hampton-Court or D. Rainolds conference with Hart the fruit whereof we gather euen at this day Whosoeuer readeth the life of Saint Austen penned by Possidonius and Caluins by Beza shall finde that as the Pelagians and Manichees of old so the Libertines and Anabaptists of late receiued their smartest blowe by disputation Did not Cyril confound Nestorius Athanasius Arius Saint Austen Fortunatus by disputation By what did Luther gain more than by disputations Was not Felix Saint Austens purchase if I may so speak Was not Berillus Saint Origens Fabius Dionysius his Conuert by disputation What better issue of a Conference could bee desired than was that of Caecilius with Octauius related by Minutius Felix which endeth thus We are both saith he winners in this Game you haue wonne mee and I haue won the Truth Tu victor mei ego triumphator erroris We are both Conquerors you haue conquered me and I triumph ouer my owne error Of writing many Books especially of Controuersie there is no end in which wee haue an Argument without an Answer and an Answer without a Reply But in a Conference orderly carried the force of euery Argument and sufficiency of euery Answer is brought to the Test and Truth and Error by grappling together try their vtmost strength As by smiting the Flint with the Steele wee strike out fire so by the conflict and collision of contrary Arguments the cleare light of Truth breaketh out Vt aurum è terrae venis effossumab admistis
one thing and you proued another The question was of the visibilitie of Church but your arguments were of the eternity of faith Is not this thiug ad ChouÌ„ Ego respondeo de allijs tu disputas de cepis M. Fisher answered of Garlike you spake of Onions For this vnsauory exception M. Sweet was sauced in the conference where it was proued against him that to proue an effect by the cause is a direct naturall and not a diuersiue proofe My argument standeth thus The true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints hath had must and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the Protestant faith hath had and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof The Maior is euident in Scripture and confessed on all hands The Minor I offered to proue but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall The Maior and Minor passing without controll none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion This argument I affirme not onely direct to proue the conclusion denied but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question which is to finde out the true Church whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe but out of Scripture And for the visibility of the true Church either it is a matter of faith or not If not what need wee so much trouble our selues with it If it bee matter of faith Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith then out of the Writ of faith that is the holy Scripture For humane Stories and Records in al ages they are not easily found and when we haue found them we find them so defectiue so corrupted and defaced and oftentimes so contrary one to another that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour And were they neuer so perfect as Bellar. confesseth they could not beget diuine and infallible faith If no man can bee saued without knowledge that he is in the true Church and no man can knowe that he is in the true Church vnless hee can proue out of good Authours the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church who neither haue time nor meanes nor learning to search all Records of Antiquitie Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages who maintained the present Tridentine faith which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did or could yet they are little neerer For Iewes and Paynims and it may bee diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages since Christ and his Apostles times and some before From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures a man may by infallible consequence grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church conclude perpetuall visibility of professors more or lesse And therefore the course I tooke is not onely the streight but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church which is the house of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue and shew my inducements to my induction Against which I heare by you it is excepted that in vndertaking it I leaue the beaten way and take a way by my self where I shall surely lose my selfe neuer come to an end To this obiection the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer Nemo tenetur diuinare No man is bound to prophecie before-hand especially of the successe of anothers labours If leaue be procured for a second Meeting the golden thread of succession which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand and his Apostles shall be drawne downe God willing to later Ages euen to Luthers time But what they meane by holding the beaten way I cannot easily diuine If they mean that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I say that way perhaps beaten by some yet seems to me a slipperie dirty way and I hope I shall bee able to shew that we need not aurum in stercore quaerere to seek the golden purity of faith amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions and deprauations in later ages Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way quos sequor à longe et vestigia pronus adoro These are Doctor Abbot now my Lord of Canterbury in his Answer to Hill Humfrey to Campion his third reason Doctor Vsher now Lord of Meth de successione Ecclesiae The History of the Waldenses Fox Acts and Monuments Crispin of the state of the church Morneys mystery of iniquity with Riuets defense thereof Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors Illiricus witnesses of the truth Wolsius his select readings Lydius his Waldensia and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse As those that trauell by night through the Hercynian Forest when they are at a stand obserue certaine birds fleeing before them and by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark guide their steppes and finde out a way so in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee I doubt not but by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me I mean the light of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject to finde out my way I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference except an omission of the sâ—ate of the question which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered as they could wish That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference they say is so brief that instar fulguris terret magis quà m illustrat it is like lightning which rather scares than lights the Passenger in his way If this were a iust exception yet it lyeth not against me who had the Opponents part put vpon me but against M. Fisher who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent For by the orders of all Schools it is the Answerers and not the Opponents task to state the Question He that keeps a Fort in battel is to make his ramparts and guard the walls with redouts and out-works the assailants part is to lay well his batteries and make breaches where he can At the next desired meeting when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place the Question should haue been explicated to the full by the distinctions conclusions heerin inclosed But as that Meeting by iniurious
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
calling it bee inuisible yet in respect of the outward calling to and profession of sauing faith it is alwaies more or lesse visible The elect are visible men and exist in the visible congregations of Christians as the apple in the ey or a Diamond in a Ring or the soule in the body As Athens is called the Greece of Greece so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church for in respect of them principally are those glorious titles giuen and gracious promises made to the Church which are registred in holy Scripture The third assertion which trencheth neer vpon our question The Church in a larger notion comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus Lactantius defineth the Church Catholica Ecclesia est quae verum Dei cultum retinet hic est fons veritatis hoc est domicilium fidei hoc Templum Dei quo si quis non intrarit vel a quo si quit exiuerit à spe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est c. That is the Catholique Church which retaines the true worship of God This is the Fountaine of truth this the House of faith this is the Temple of God he that shall not enter heerein or shall depart hence is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation Of the Church in this acception our Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood If hee refuse to heare the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican And Saint Lukes Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church c. And Saint Paul 's Despiseyee the Church of God c And in his Epistle to the Ephesians Vnto him bee glory in the Church c. And to Timothy How shall hee take care of the Church of God The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field wherein are tares with the wheat a floore wherein is chaffe with graine a net wherein are sweet fish and rotten an house in which are precious vessels and vile to the Ark in which were cleane and vncleane beasts To the Church taken in this sense Christ directeth vs Tell the Church And Saint Paul That thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the liuing God And Saint Cyprian Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ who leaueth the Church of Christ hee is a stranger hee is a profane person for hee cannot haue God to his Father who hath not the Church for his Mother And Saint Augustine I will not account thee a Christian vnlesse I see thee in the Church The fourth assertion The Church in this notion as it extends to all that professe the true Religion and participate in the pledges of saluation was euer is and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world That it hath euer beene hitherto visible all Histories accord and that it shall so continue to the worlds end our Sauiours words are our warrant Goe yee and teach all nations c. andle I am with you alwaies euen vnto the end of the world For the continuance of Gods Word the Prophet Esay is most peremptory This is my couenant with thee saith the Lord c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from hence-foorth for euer And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments that they shall bee administred till his second comming As oft as yee eat of this Bread and drink of this Cup yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come And lastly S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery He gaue some Apostles some Prophets c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith c. It is true Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church and there shall be such a falling away that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth false prophets and false Christs shall arise and seduce if it were possible the elect but that is not possible hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith and if they retaine it they will also pâ—ofessed it 〈◊〉 for with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation Sainâ— Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the â—onatists What is that that thou sayest The Church 〈◊〉 already perished and gone out of all Nations 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached that it may bee in all Nations therefore euen vnto the end of the world 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point because M. Fisher in his reflection on the Conference spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it as a strong bulwark as hee imagineth against vs. I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest effluere non potest The Church may bee euershadowed it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉 The fift assertion The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible but sometimes it is more visible sometimes it is lesse It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes when he sung In Iurie is God knowne his name is great in Israel then it was in the time that Hosea prophecies of Israel shall remain many daies without a King and without a sacrifice It was more visible in the daies Malachie foreshews of From the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe there of my name shall be great among the Gentiles then in the daies Eliah complaineth of I euen I am left alone The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon when she is compared to a Queene honourably attended then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of when shee is compared to a Woman flying into the wildernesse Shee was more visible in the daies Esay fortelleth of Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy nursing mothers then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie when Kings shall giue their Kingdome to the beast In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church Micah giueth her this Motto Reioyce not ouer mee O my enemy though I fall I shall rise againe And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone My Loue is faire as the Moone To which ground Saint Austen alluding interpreteth Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned the Church in trouble and persecution And Saint Ambrose Ecclesia vt Luna defectus habet et orâ—us frequentes The Church as the Moone hath her often waxings and wainings And in his Epistle The Moone it selfe whereby in the
Oracles of the Prophets the countenance of the Church is figured when at the first rising againe shee is renued into the ages of the moneth shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night and by little and little filling her hornes or right ouer against the Sunne rounding them doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse The sixt assertion The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible conspicuous and ample then the true Church and consequently eminent Visibility amplitude and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church The glorious face and outside of a Church which dazleth our aduersaries eyes was rather against Michea then for him all the Prophets prophecied c. It was rather against Eliah then for him for there were 450 Priests of Baal besides Câ—â—marims and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe It was rather against Ieremy then for him when all the Priests took counsell against him saying The law shall not depart from the Priest c. Nay the glorious outside and face of a Church was rather against Christ himselfe then for him All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus Since Christs death to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks the Arrians vndoubtedly would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp for some hundreds of yeres if that were a safe triall for Saint Ierome complaineth Tunc vsiae nomen abolitum est tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est Then the name of substance was abolished then the condemnation of the â—â—cene Creed was proclaimed the whole world sighed and maruelled that it became Arrian Vincentius putâ— theâ— case what was to be done Quando saith he Arrianorum venenuÌ„ non ià m portiunculam quandam sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion but in a manner the whole world insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops partly by force and partly by cunning were intrapped and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes These things beeing so may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Where are they now who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs and boast of their wealth who define the Church by multitude and despise the little flock of Christ who honour the sand and reproach the greater lights of heauen who treasure vp Check-stones and passe by Margarites The seauenth Assertion When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church in opposition to the other the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church is by trying their doctrine by Scripture To this touch-stone of truth the Prophet Esay directeth vs To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them And our blessed Sauiour Search the Scriptures for in them you think yee haue eternall life And S. Peter We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie vnto which you doe well if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place By this rule the Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Saint Austen best approoueth of this course to come to the knowledge of the true Church In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church And Non audiamus Haec dico Haec dicis sed audiamus 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus Sunt certi libri Dominici quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam Let vs not heare I say this or Thou saist this but let vs heare This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God to whose authority wee both consent there let vs seeke the Church And after much debating the matter hee concludeth the Chapter with these words Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus therefore let vs seeke her the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures And Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam Aug. ep 48. Saint Basil directeth vs to the same course 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With whomsoeuer doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side To forbeare more allegations the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew hearing the name of S. Chrysostome deliuereth a firmer conclusion in formall and expresse tearmes and that seuerall times shewing that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it 〈…〉 modis â—stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi et quae Gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur quae vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per Scripturas quare quia omnia haec quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate habent et haereses illae in schemate similiter Ecclesiam similiter scripturas similiter baptismum similiter eucharistiam et caetera omnia demâ—m ipsum Christum Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis nisi tantummodo per Scripturas Et pòst Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scripturaâ— Formerly it was shewed many waies what was the true Church of Christ and what was Gentilism but now it is knowne no other way which is the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures Wherefore because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth euen those heresies haue in shadow in like manner the Church in like manner the Scriptures in like manner Baptisme in like manner the Lords Supper and all other things finally Christ himselfe Hee therfore who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it in such a great confusion of multitude but onely by the Scriptures And a little after Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it but onely by the Scriptures It is obserued by those who follow the Law that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement iurisdiction of the Court he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries but distrust and despaire of their cause to detract as they doe from the perfection and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for deciding all controuersies And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in caâ—sa diffidentiam
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
lineis materiam clausimus inter quas congredimur According to which prescription D. Featly as soone as he receiued the Question from M. Fisher returned it in another paper in which he briefly stated it The fift rule is Saint Austens to obserue Logick Forme in Disputation Quid tu disputas si disputare non noueris Quid est aliud dialectica quam peritia disputandi Nonne etiam dialectice Christ us cum Iudaeis egit Why dost thou offer to dispute if thou knowest not how to dispute What is Logick but the Art of disputing Did not Christ dispute Logically with the Iewes And a little after Dialecticam nunquam doctrina Christiana forâ—â—dat The Christian doctrine neuer feareth Logick According to which prescription D. Featly desired that both the opponent respondent should bee tied to Logick Forme for nimble wits like Proteus will turne themselues into all Formes and vnlesse they bee held fast and in a sort forced and wrung with the knots of Logicall Arguments they wil neuer be brought to agnize the Truth Aristotle speaks of certain Organa mechanica artificiall Frames vsed in Greece quae teneros infantium artus coercerent ne in praua deflecterentur sed concinna illorum forma nihil foedum aspectu aut distortuÌ„ praeferret which frames serued to keep straight the limbs and joynts of the infants that they should not goe away but keep due proportion and a comely shape Such artificiall instruments are Logick Formes they serue to make vs to walk straight 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neither treading inward nor outward in our discourses To dispute without Logick is to rule without a Ruler or draw a Circle without a Compasse or steer without a Card. In which respect although M. Fisher were very vnwilling to be bound to his Logicall behauiour yet D. Featly had great reason to require it of him because he bound himself to it proposing all his Arguments in Logick Form and disposing them in Logick Method premising Arguments à priori before his Argument à posteriori and Syllogismes before his Induction beginning at the top in the first Age and descending to the later according to the order of time nature dignity The most cunning Work-man that euer wrought with the tools of naturall wit forceth all Arguments into two kindes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or reprehensorie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or demonstratiue Elencticall or reprehensiue driue at an Aduersary Dicticall or demonstratiue aime at a Thesis or Position of our owne The former sort serue to beat downe an enemies weapons on his owne head the later to make good our owne ground The former may not vnfitly be called 〈◊〉 Arguments the later Simply and directly proouing D. Featly in this Disputation made vse of both first of Elencticall Arguments to discouer the weaknes of his Aduersaries and then of Dicticall to shew the strength of the Protestants cause and the Visibility of their Church in all Ages The first Argument of the former sort was couched in these words Although divine and infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane History Which may be thus propounded at large Whosoeuer propoundeth such a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Testimonies and Records betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity But M. Fisher propoundeth a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records Therefore M. Fisher betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity The Maior or first Proposition was prooued by Bellarmine's confession Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam cui subesse potest falsum Humane Stories and Records beget onely an humane faith or rather credulity subject to error And it may bee more strongly confirmed by the testimony of Tertullian Aliunde suadere possunt de rebus fidei nisi ex Literis fidei Can they otherwise perswade in matters of faith than out of the Writ of faith And Saint Augustine Solis Canonicis debeo absolutum sine vlla recusatione consensum I owe absolute consent without any refusall onely to the Canonicall Scriptures The effect cannot exceed the cause nor the conclusion both the premises and therefore wee cannot build a diuine and infallible conclusion such are all conclusions de fide vpon meer humane testimonies which are not of infallible truth All other humane Histories come short of the Apocryphall Books of Scripture for you rank them with the Canonicall Scriptures and we giue them the next place to them yet the testimonies out of the Apocryphal of Scripture may not be alleaged to ground any conclusion of faith vpon them as Ruffinus affirms in expresse words Quae omniae legi quidem in Ecclesiis volucrunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandam All which Books they would haue read in the Churches but not be produced to establish faith out of them The Minor or Assumption is thus prooued The perpetuall Visibility of the Church is a conclusion of faith euidently grounded as is confessed on Christ's promise in Scripture But M. Fisher requireth in his Question the perpetuall Visibility of the Church to be proued out of meer humane Authors and Stories expresly excluding Scripture Therefore M. Fisher propoundeth a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records The second Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was couched in these words Although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false sâ—pposals c. Which may be thus propounded at large That Question which is grounded vpon an euident false supposall needeth not to bee discussed but ought rather to be exploded But M. Fishers Question is grounded vpon an euident false supposall Therefore M. Fishers Question needeth not to be discussed but ought rather to bee exploded The Maior or first Proposition is euident in it self for to such a Question there needeth no other Answer to be giuen but simply to deny the supposall The Minor or second Proposition was thus proued First if the names of all Professors are not nor euer were vpon Record then M. Fishers supposall is false viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of all visible professors can now bee shewed But all visible professors names are not nor euer were on record as it is certaine and confessed by A. C. p. 33. Therefore Master Fishers supposall is false viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of those visible Professors could be shewed Secondly if all ancient Records are not now extant then it is no good Argument to say The names of visible Protestants in all ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record But all ancient Records are not now extant Therefore it is no good Argument to say that because the names of
visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot and by his silence granteth it Thirdly the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny were visible men yet cannot their proper names be shewed proued out of good Authors for good Authors report they had no proper names at all With this rather tentatiue then serious instance M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt but Master Boulton though he confessed in effect that they were gon at the common Law yet he sought to relieue them by the Chanâ—â—â—â— by saying that Though those people had no proper names yet they had some descriptions and might bee knowne by some periphrasis But it may bee replied 1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name 2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors any particular description of these men whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another but onely a generall description that They are a people in Africa neere the hill Atlas which haue no proper names and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages in a generall description of certaine men who opposed certaine errors against and besides the Doctrine of Scripture and especially the errors of the Church of Rome Fourthly the Author and Head of the Heretikes called Acephali was a visible man but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors for those Hereticks were therefore called Acephali or headless because the certain Author and Head of that Heresie could neuer bee knowne And heer if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne a man might truly say that both himselfe and his asâ—istant Master Sweet and their good friend at a dead 〈◊〉 Master Boulton were all nonplussed with this argument for they replied nothing to it Fiftly the falshood of Master Fishers supposall the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vndertooke in the conference may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances as First there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knee to Baal yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors Secondly there were who opposed corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises and their false doctrine or at least assented not vnto it in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnation yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Thirdly the first brocher of the errors touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost and Authors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches were visible men yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Fourthly they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kinde onely were visible men yet the names of them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors Fiftly there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Sixtly Master Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors from Noah according to the flesh were visible men yet all their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors And here the Protestants might iustly call for names as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault First there were a people of Africa neuer christned by any proper names Names Names where are their Names Secondly there was an Author of the Heresie of the Acephali Names Names where is his Name Thirdly there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knees to Baal Names Names where are their Names Fourthly there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation Names Names where are their Names Fiftly there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost Names Names where are their Names Sixtly there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kind onely Names Names where are their Names Seuenthly there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England and Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres Names Names where are their Names Eightthly M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors descended from Noah were visible men Names Names where are their Names The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher to name any City Town Village or Hamlet where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers more next after Christ. And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net for in propounding the Question of the Visibility of the Church in all Ages he spred a strong Net as hee thought to catch D. White and D. Featly in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther but hee was caught in his owne Net by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers immediately after Christ. And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vpon him wherewith hee intended to batter down the walls of our Sion The true Church must haue been visible in all Ages before Luther yea so visible as M. Fisher pretendeth that The Names of the Professors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors The Romish Church hath not been so visible Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne The Assumption is thus prooued No Church holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Treâ—t in generall or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particular can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ. But the Romish Church holdeth the doctrine of the Councell of Trent in generall and those fifteen Articles in speciall Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to haue been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ. And first that no Church within the space aboue-named can bee prooued to haue held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's silence and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish Campiâ—â— in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth that 〈…〉 prooue the Romish faith but we could not hear so much as any vâ—ces or 〈◊〉 from M. Fisher to testifie much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages Pliâ—â—â— writes of the â—â—custa or Lobster that he is so afraid of the 〈◊〉 that it is death for him to see him so wee may truely say that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fifteen Articles mentioned in the Conference
I in my Argument nor you in your Answer vse those words 〈◊〉 aeterno Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Conference viz. That Church whose faith is eternall and pâ—â—petuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popiâ—â— Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee You answer That the Maior is not vniuersally true for that there may be a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged As for example A Church of Angels who for want of visible professors are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be Quid ad Rombum What is this instance to the purpose I dispute of the Church on earth you answer of the Church in heauen I dispute of faith you answer of vision I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages you answer of a Church in which there is no succeeding nor Ages I dispute of a Church visible in all Ages you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors Martyrs who haue sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud you answer of immortall Spirits In a word I dispute of men named in good Authors and Histories you answer of Angels whose names are written in heauen and were neuer vpon visible Record except two or three named in the Scriptures Page 31. To those words of mine I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio à genere in genus such was my Argument for faith in a beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof You reply That M. Sweet 's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed if hee had tearmed that 〈◊〉 to weet proouing the effect by the cause transitio à genere in genus for a cause as a cause an effect as an effect doe not onely differ specie but also genere and besides a proofe à priori and à posteriori are diuers kindes of proofes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I dispute of a transition à genere in genus in rebus you answer of a transition in notionibus I speake of a straying from the subject of the Question you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing I speake of genus in Scientijs you answer of 〈◊〉 in the predicables or predicants so well in defence of M. Sweet you obserue M Sweets pretended Law of speaking nothing but to the purpose But certainely you saw not the But and somissed the mark reading M. Sweets Law without it thus Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose Euery Puney in Logick can tell you that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus is the proouing of a conclusion in one science by the principles of another distinct from it and no way subalternall to it As for example To demonstrate a conclusion in Physick by principles in Geometrie or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy out of a principle or principles in Morall Philosophy But if your interpretation of transitio à genere in genus should stand euery demonstration of the effect by the cause à priori or of the cause by the effect 〈◊〉 posteriori in the same Science should bee a transitio à genere in genus because as you say the cause as a cause and the effect as an effect differ genere for which ignorant Arguing as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference so you M. Fisher for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues Page 65. You alledge this for a reason why you refused to answer Christ his Apostles for that say you All disputation about particulars before the true Church were by her perpetuall Visibility or some such euident marke found out and knowne would haue beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference had with a certaine Minister would not enter into any particulars vntill he had asked these generall Questions First what ground the Minister would stand vpon c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heer you bring-in by the head and eares a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister and an acute Disputant touching the merit of works What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church or a Catalogue of Names If this bee not transitio à genere in genus I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant neither was there any cause at all giuen you of this digression for I drew you not to dispute about any particulars but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self to weet that The Protestant Church was so visible in the first Age that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith might be produced viz. Christ his twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius to whom after you had giuen your Answer Whether they taught our faith or yours I would haue gone on in like manner in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages Now then let the Reader iudge whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Minister touching merits were any way necessary or pertinent Page 68. 69 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions to prooue that Hereticks who reiected the authority of the Apostolicall and Mother Churches and refused also some Scriptures or peruerted the Text by additions and detractions should not be admitted to dispute with Orthodoxall Christians out of Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The sentences indeed you cite are golden but you apply them most leadenly for what Protestant whom by a ridiculous 〈◊〉 principij or begging the Question you stile Hereticks what Protestant I say euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Churches as they were in the Primitiue Times much lesse either refused or peruerted any part of parcell of the Canonicall Scriptures by addition or detraction Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures and the ancient mother-Mother-church of which Tertullian speaks who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors themselues then you do we willingly put our whole cause in their hands wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to haue been held by the Apostles and their heires Tertullian speaks of Prooue that the Apostles or the Primitiue Churches immediatly founded by them held your Trent-faith or those twelue new Articles added by Pope Piuâ— in the end of that Councell and imposed vpon all Professors to sweare vnto and then I will acknowledge that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures And if we prooue not that we
the Catholique Church of Christ to Africa and therein to the Sect of Donatus so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome and the Popes adherents We teach with Saint Austen Non Romanos sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit That God promised with an oath to Abraham not the Romans but all Nations for his seed We beleeue that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued and Christs Sacraments administred God calles some by ordinary meanes and consequently there is a Christian Church though neuer hearing of Rome or Papall Iurisdiction who are ordained to saluation Wee account all that professe the name of Christ Doctrine of the Gospell to be members of the visible Catholick Church yet with this difference some are sound members and parts others vnsound and these more or lesse Wee doubt not but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian and Mogol in Asia Africa Europe yea Italy and Rome it selfe euen in the denne of Antichrist And therefore we are the true Catholicks who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam a Church truly Catholicke and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times who damne all sorts of Christians saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age Although our Sauiours words are most true Where there are two or three gathered in my name there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words are most true Vbi tres sunt Ecclesia est licèt Laici sint Where there are three there is the Church yea though those three bee Lay-men and In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est the Church is in one or two men yea Alensis and diuers among you remembred by Tostatus affirme that from the time of Christs suffering vntil his resurrection sides in sol◠remansit beata Virgine that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith and consequently that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her Yet God be blessed for it wee need not to fly to any such defence We shall bring into the field pares aquilas nay plures aquilas more ensignes and banners then you yea incomparably more for the first and best Ages and if you exceed vs in the latter I wish you to remember that in time in liquors the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs Yea but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages as we cannot name one in euery age How proue you this Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand A beggerly Rapsodist whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues and the ragges that remaine as I am informed will be shortly by another puld away Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement and more integrity then our worthy Morton now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield hath prooued him to be yet beeing a knowne Papist to alleage meerely his work and words to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe and therefore you did well in this place to knock at the Buttery-dore And heere I intreat the Reader to note how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite In all the other passages of his Book there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth but heer he is very pleasant now his dull wit is whetted he was not able in all the Conference nor since in his Answer to send out such a flash Will you know the reason The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him and thus he diuines The Protestants cannot abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this poynt as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference who hauing been called vpon to produce Names burst forth c. It is true I burst forth not into a passion as you would make the Reader beleeue but into a laughter as did the rest of the company neither did I by any gesture or speech discouer my impatience but your folly who when I alledged you reasons and testimonies were not content with them but called for emptie names c. And what was this but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine surprized your iudgement you might haue vnderstood plainly perceiued that I cōpared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith to a Buttery-book but such a Catalogue as you then required and you vsually bring to proue the visiblity of your church viz. a companie of names and nothing else testes sine testimonijs witnesses deposing nothing for you And may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books Note Reader say you what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke then any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his apostasie more respected the Butterie then any ecclesiasticall storie I maruell not that you Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry and the Blacke-gard of Rome haue a sharpe tooth against Luther who by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery and baked for the Popes Kitchin Certainly if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with hee did but hold that which hee got among you for after hee for sooke Sodom which you Apostataes call apostasie hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers and so sharpely inueighed against them that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him yet hee could not but confesse that hee was much too blame in two things that hee presumed to touch the Popes Crowne and the Monkes bellie Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities strike him out of your Butterie-booke and put Father Parsons in his place the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion or religious equiuocation because good man his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford and hee expeld for falsifying the Butterie-booke and thereby cozening and purloining the Students of that Colledge The Protestant Relation Paragraph the seauenth touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori and à posteriori Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall is so visible that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. Master Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith
ceaseth Doctor Featly You haue a purpose Master Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue till his second Comming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shal be so visible that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. Master Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacie called Petitio principii Doctor Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not Petitio principij But such is my Argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder Argument to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Heretikes Mahumetanes and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible Master Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori Doctor Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better then an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapous I list take you what buckler you can Master Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause better then of the cause by the effect In this place or vpon the like occasion againe offered neerer the end of the disputation Master Sweet replied M. Sweet This is to diuert the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good Authors Doctor Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it Master Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori Doctor Featly What a reason is this May not an effect bee prooued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius Master FISHER'S Answer Thus farre the Relator who hath heere added much more then was said and in particular those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Master Fisher did not speake perhaps hee might say That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then à priori not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori before that which is à priori but that such a proofe à posteriori as hee in this present question required and as the question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church as shall be shewed when need is heereafter At this present it may suffieâ—â—â— say to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible and as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting so visible as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker contr Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glorie of the Church is most cleerly witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of Doctor Iohn White in his way p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing all this I say it is most apparant that if there cannot bee produced as there cannot Names of Protestants or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages out of Histories to whom Gods promises agree besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith and of which al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation Doctor FEATLY'S Reply I maruel not M. Fisher that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds for you haue much adoo with all your strength and skil to get yourself out of the mire M. Sweet since he left our Vniuersities and was metriculated into your Society seemes to speak in our Academicall Phrase to haue resumed gradum Simeonis and to haue proceeded backward for whatsoeuer truth in Logick or Philosophy hee had learned in our Schools he hath learned to vnlearn in yours It seemeth he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was who took double pay of his scholars for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others Hee was taught in our Schools that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated but by the cause for Scire est causam scire propter quam c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a scientificall Syllogism proceeding of those things that are former in nature and more knowne and causes of the conclusion All this he hath vnlearned and will needs go about to perswade vs that An effect because it is posterius must needs be proued by an effect and by the same reason that effect by another effect and Thirdly the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie or mystery of iniquity in it which is not the Church but a preualent and predominant faction in it The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member though a sick and weak one of the Catholique visible Church and consequently to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church in the Gospell but the Papacy or that predominant faction is no member but a botch or an aposteme in the Church to which none of those promises belong yet many
discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
Prince Castilians Courtier namely Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia extra anni solisque vias To vndertake to make a demonstration consisting ex veris primis immediatis prioribus notioribus causis conclusionis is all one saith Ludouicus Viues as if to cure a most dangerous disease a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples the first whereof is found in India the second amongst the Ceres the third in the Riphean Hilles and the fourth in the nest of a Phenix If that demonstration which they call potissima the soueraigne demonstration and non parâ—iell containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe consisting of all tearmes reciprocall and all propositions inabled and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de omni per se et quatenus ipsum were any where in vse it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks the most certaine Science and fullest of euident demonstrations but Pererius the Iesuite and others with him vndertake to prooue that the Mathematicians vse no such demonstrations and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude that such absolute demonstrations exalted to the highest degree of necessity presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding are meere imaginary speculations Let the Philosophers and Logicians among themselues end this controuersie I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side But setting aside that Idea of demonstration and speaking of such demonstrations à priori or à causâ as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration as demonstrations go current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick The Church holding the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith c. For the Maior or first proposition it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed before in the setting downe of the state of the Question touching the Visibility of the Church assertion the fourth and partly vpon that Text of the Apostle With the hart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse and with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation The Minor or assumption is most necessarily true because this eternall faith is the formall cause constituting and making the true Church for as Laurentius rightly argueth Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam quatâ—nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei Romani c. sedquatenus sunt fideles ergo fides doctrina fidei est causa formalis interna Ecclesiae et per eam Ecclesia constituitur et per eandem dignoscitur Men make not the Church simply as they are Europeans or Romanes or Africans or Britans or the like but as they are of the faithfull or holding the faith therefore faith and the Doctrine thereof is the formall and internall cause of the Church and by it the Church is made a Church and distinguished from all other societies Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith a proper attribute or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 demonstrated of the proper subiect the true Church by the proper and neerest cause the eternity of faith and what more is to be required in a true demonstration à priori You will say this demonstrateth that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible but not that the Protestant Church I reply either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church or not if it be supposed to bee the true Church then hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted then you should haue primarily denied this and put vs to the proofe of it which beeing prooued would inferre the Visibility but this you did not and I think durst not in the Conference for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced yet now since the Conference you are growne so hardy as to deny it and therefore thus I proue it A Church holding professing entirely the perpetuall faith needfull to saluation is a true Church The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith c. Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur. The Maior is confessed of all sides and must be so because there is no saluation without the Church where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed there must needs bee the Church The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed The Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the perpetuall faith c. The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth The Assumption is thus confirmed The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures contained in the three Creeds The Apostles Creed the Nicen Creed and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures and contained in the three Creeds and foure Councels aboue-named Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints In this last Syllogisme the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies First by the publique profession and practice of the Church of England and other Protestant Churches Secondly by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith out of the principles aboue-named Thirdly by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe And first it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches that the Protestant Doctrine is that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued vnder paine of eternall damnation which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them All the Protestant Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named and for the foure first generall Councels there is no Protestant who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood if hee be cald thereunto Secondly there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance where and when they will we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field On the contrarie besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture therefore according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques Cùm
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and
Thus possessed and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident assertions and false suggestions hee with much adoe by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes procures a Conference wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect Hee and all the Auditory obserued D. White and my selfe to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions both to prooue the Visibility of our Church and disprooue theirs On the contrary he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs to hinder speedie and direct proceedings and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church First hee heard that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church beeing a point of faith was not to bee built vpon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors as the Iesuite required but vpon diuine reuelation in Gods Word as is confessed by learned Papists Secondly that a Protestant Church might haue beene visible in all Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produced and prooued out of good Authors because neither all mens names euer were vpon record nor are all antient Records preserued to this day neither can wee come by all those Records that are yet extant Thirdly that notwithstanding the Popish brag that All the Christian world were Papists before Luther yet you were not able to name any Countrey City Village or Hamlet nay not any man who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ either professed your Trent-faith in generall or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in particular Fourthly that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church was á priori by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures of which faith God promiseth in his Word that it shall haue visible Professors to the worlds end Fiftly that a visible Church inferrs not necessarily a right faith Iews Mahumetanes Gentiles and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks haue visible professors of their impieties yet are they all of a wrong beliefe if of any on the contrary the right faith inferreth necessarily a visible Church because the true faith cannot bee in a Church which professeth it not openly or priuately therefore the prime and maine question of all is of the right beliefe of the primitiue and Catholique faith whether wee or the Church of Rome haue it and not of a Catalogue of names Sixtly that an offer was made to name some eminent persons which in al Ages taught Protestant Doctrine and opposed the Romish errors either when they came in or not long after and that this Catalogue had beene a good way proceeded in if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations Lastly that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles and vrged you againe and againe yea and adiured you also to answer directly whether they taught our faith or yours yet you peremptorily and finally refused so to doe which hee might well interpret to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause And now let the discreet Reader iudge whether M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opinion concerning you and your cause at least in that particular of which only he seemed to doubt of Shortly after the Conference M. Fisher sent this Letter ensuing to the right honorable the Earl of WARVVICK The Copie of M. Fisher's Letter RIGHT HONOVRABLE LORD I Esteeme it a speciall prouidence of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherein D. White and D. Featly vndertook to shew against mee and my companion that the Protestant Church had beene visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in the Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proofe to haue consisted in this that The true Church was alwaies so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named but the Protestants was the true Church Wee refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferd the Question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to prooue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily neglected Certainely heereby they are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it For hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church that is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to bee and the Church whose faith is eternall and vnchanged must bee is able to name her Professors in all Ages either for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set down the names of their Professors in all Ages or else they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yeelding as they did to shew the continual Visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they stick in the first Age alone refusing to name their professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tried May not the Answerer choose to deny which part of the Argument hee pleaseth and was it euer heard that hee should bee inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogism or Induction were fully propounded Very nobly therefore and prudently your Lordship in the end desired anotheâ— meeting not doubting that your owne partie within three or foure daies would be content to giue vs the names of their Professors in all Ages as wee were ready to giue them the names of ours that thereby both sides might bee the better prepared for a second triall which when they haue performed wee shall not faile to encounter with them either by way of speech or writing as your Lordship all things considered shal think fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of truth But if your Lordship shall not bee able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and importâ—nt request the defect of proofe on their part must needs bee accounted a plaine flight and no man heereafter can prudently rely his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall Visibility prooued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and feigned Thus expecting the issue heereof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine the first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ IOHN FISHER Doctor Featlie's Answer to M. Fisher's Letter IN perusing this Letter of yours I could not but think of the old riddle Hom◠〈…〉 videns