Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	ordination_n	power_n	presbyter_n	3,665	5	10.0489	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A86003	Male audis or An answer to Mr. Coleman his Malè dicis. Wherein the repugnancy of his Erastian doctrine to the word of God, to the solemne League and Covenant, and to the ordinances of Parliament: also his contradictions, tergiversations, heterodoxies, calumnies, and perverting of testimonies, are made more apparent then formerly. Together with some animadversions upon Master Hussey his Plea for Christian magistracy: shewing, that in divers of the afore mentioned particulars he hath miscarried as much, and in some particulars more then Mr Coleman. / By George Gillespie, minister at Edinbrugh. Published by authority.	Gillespie, George, 1613-1648.	1646 (1646)	Wing G754; Thomason E317_16; ESTC R200545	44,904	65

ministeriall conviction it is not necessary that there be two or three witnesses If a scandalous sin be certainly known to a Minister though the thing be not certified by two or three witnesses yet a Minister upon certain knowledge had of the fact may both beleeve it and ministerially convince the offender But there may not be a Consistoriall proceeding without two or three witnesses 2. Since he appealeth to the following verses let vers 22. decide it Lay hands suddenly on no man To whom the laying on of hands or ordination did belong to them also it did belong to receive an accusation against an Elder But to the Presbytery did belong the laying on of hands or ordination 1 Tim. 4. 14. Ergo to the Presbytery did belong the receiving of an accusation against an Elder And so it was not the act of a single Minister as ministeriall conviction is To the last instance from Rev. 2. 14 15 〈…〉 the Reverend Brother answers that he had striven to find out how Church-censures might be there grounded but was constrained to let it alone But what is it in his opinion which is there blamed in the Angels of those Churches Doth he imagine that those who are so much commended by Christ himself for their holding fast of his Name and of the true Faith did not so much as doctrinally or ministerially oppose the foul errours of the Balaamites and of Jezebel No doubt but this was done but Christ reproves them because such scandalous persons were yet suffered to be in the Church and were not cast out I have a few things against thee because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam and vers. 20. Thou sufferest that woman Jezebel And why was the very having or suffering them in the Church a fault if it had not been a duty to cast them out of the Church Which casting out could not be by banishment but by excommunication It did not belong to the Angell to cast out the Balaamites out of Pergamos but he might and ought to have cast them out of the Church in Pergamos 9. Master Coleman hath another passage against the distinction of Church-censures and Civill punishments But what are Ecclesiasticall Censures saith he let us take a taste is deposition from the Ministery This Kings have done c. Maledicis p. 7. Now similia l●bra lactucis But for all that the taste is vitiated and doth not put a difference between things that are different Deposition is sometimes taken improperly for expulsion as Balsamon in Conc. Nicae● Can. 19. doth observe And so the Christian Magistrate may remove or put away Ministers when they deserve to be put away that is by a coercive power to restrain them imprison or banish them and in case of capitall crimes punish them with capitall punishments King James having once heard a Dispute in Saint Andrews about the deposition of Ministers was convinced that it doth not belong to the Civill Magistrate Yet said he I can depose a Ministers head from his shoulders Which was better Divinity then this of Master Coleman If we take deposition properly as it is more then the expelling sequestring or removing of a Minister from this or that place and comprehendeth that which the Councel of An●yra Can. 18. cals {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} The honour of Presbytership to be taken away or a privation of that Presbyteratus the order of a Presbyter and that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} the authority and power of dispensing the Word Sacraments and Discipline which was given in Ordination so none have power to depose who have not power to ordain It belongeth not to the Magistrate either to make or unmake Ministers Therefore in the ancient Church the Bishops had power of the deposition as well as of the ordination of Presbyters yet they were bound up that they might not depose either Presbyter or Deacon without the concurrence of a Presbytery or Synod in the businesse Mark of the Synod not of the Magistrate As for the Testimonies brought by Master Coleman he doth both here and in diverse other places name his Authors without quoting the places It seems he hath either found the words cited by others but durst not trust the quotations or else hath found somewhat in those places which might make against him However all that he can cite of that kinde concerning deposition of Ministers by Emperors i● meant of a coercive expulsion not of that which we call properly Deposition And to this purpose let him take the Observation of * a great Antiquary And withall he may take notice that Protestant Writers do disclaime the Magistrates power of deposing Ministers and hold that deposition is a part of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction Ministers being alwayes punishable as other Members of the Common-wealth according to the Law of the Land for any offence committed against Law CHAP. 3. That Master Colemans and Master Husseys opposing of Church-Government neither is nor can be reconciled with the solemne League and Covenant MAster Colemans Doctrine was by me charged to be a violation of the solemne League and Covenant This he acknowledged in his Re-examination page 13. 17. to be a very grievous charge and a greater fault in him then in divers others if made out and he desired seriously yea challenged it by the right of a Christian and by the right of a Minister that I should prosecute this charge whereupon I did in my Nihil Respondes prosecute it so farre that by five strong Arguments I did demonstrate the repugnancy of his Doctrine to the Covenant About a Moneth afterward comes out Master Husseys Booke wherein the charge it selfe before desired to be prosecuted is declined expresly by Master Coleman in the few lines by him prefixed which are ranked together with the Errata in which he desires that the argumentative part may be so prosecuted as that the charge of Covenant-breaking may be laid aside which if it be taken up he lets me know before-hand it shall be esteemed by them a Nihil Respondes It is also declined by Mr. Hussey page 15. The Argument of the Covenant is too low to be thought on in this Discourse we are now in an higher region then the words of the Covenant c. A Tenent lookt upon by the reformed Churches as proper to those that are inspired with the Ghost of Arminius for the Remonstrants both at and after the Synod of Dort did cry downe the Obligation of all Nationall Covenants Oaths c. in matters of religion under the colour of taking the Scripture onely for a rule Well we see the charge declined as nothing but this is not all almost two moneths after my proofe of the charge Mr. Coleman comes out with his Maledicis and declines both the charge it selfe which he calls An impertinent charge pag. 22. and my five Arguments too without so much as taking notice of them or offering replies

such Church-Government as Master Coleman casts upon an uncertainty whether the Word hold out any such thing can be by his Principles the power of Magistracy in things Ecclesiasticall but another Government beside Magistracy But the Church-Government mentioned in the first Article of the Covenant is such a Church-Government as Master Coleman casts upon an uncertainty whether the Word hold out any such thing Ergo the Church-Government mentioned in the first Article of the Covenant cannot be by his Principles the power of Magistracy but another Government beside Magistracy The Proposition he will easily admit unlesse he alter his assertions the assumption is cleare from his Re-examination pag. 15. CHAP. IIII. Master Coleman and Master Hussey their errors in Divinity MAster Hussey all along calls for Divinity Schoolrs I confesse himselfe hath much need of them that he may be better grounded in his Divinity and that if he will plead any more for Christian Magistracy he may not involve himselfe into such dangerous heterodoxies as have fallen from his pen in this short Tractate I instance in these First In his Epistle to the Parliament he hath divers passages against Synodicall Votes he will have no putting to the Vote For Votes saith he pag. 6 are of no other use but to gather parties and ought no where to be used but by those that have the power of the Sword And pag. 3. he will have the businesse of Assemblies to be only Doctrinall and by dispute to finde out truth their Disputes ought to end in a brotherly accord as in Act. 15. much disputing but all ended in accord no putting to the Vote And pag. 5. he will have things carried with strength of Argument and unanimous consent of the whole Clergy Behold how he joyneth issue with the Remonstrants against the Contra-Remonstrants to introduce not onely an Accademicall but a Scepticall and Pyrrhonian Dubitation and uncertainty so that there shall never be an end of controversie nor any settlement of truth and of the Ordinances of Jesus Christ so long as there shall be but one tenacious Disputer to hold up the ball of contention One egge is not liker another then Master Husseys Tenent is like that of the Arminians for which see the Synod of Dort Sess. 25. It was the nin●h condition which the Arminians required in a lawfull and well constituted Synod that there might be no decision of the controverted Articles but onely such an accommodation as both sides might agree to And generally they hold that Synods ought not to meet for decision or determination but for examining disputing discussing So their Examen Censurae cap. 25. and their Vindiciae lib. 2. cap. 6. pag. 131. 133. Secondly In that same Epistle to the Parliament pag. 4. he hath this passage Will-worship is unlawfull I meane in matters that are essentiall to Gods Worship which are matters of duty as for circumstantials of time and place except the Sabbath which are matters of liberty in these the Common-wealth may Vote c and this is your christian liberty that in matters of liberty yee make Rules and Lawes to your selves not crossing the ends that you are tyed to in duty And is the Sabbath onely a circumstantiall of time contra-distinct from matters of duty It seemes he will cry downe not onely the Jus divinum of Church-censures with the Erastians but the Jus divinum of the Sabbath with the Canterburians And if Will-worship be unlawfull onely in the essentialls of Gods Worship why was the Argument of Will-worship so much tossed not onely between Prelates and Non-Conformists but between Papists and Protestants even in reference to Ceremonies And whether hath not Mr. Hussey here ingaged himselfe to hold it free and lawfull to the Christian Magistrate yea to private Christians for he calls it Christian liberty not Parliamentary liberty now Christian liberty belongs to all sorts of Christians to make Lawes to themselves for taking the Sacrament anniversarily on Christmasse Good-Friday and Easter or to appoint a perpetuall Monethly Fast or Thanksgiving yea another Parliament may if so it should seeme good to them impose againe the Surplice and Crosse in Baptisme Fonts Railing of Communion Tables the reading of divers passages of Apocrypha to the Congregation Doxologies Anthems Responsories c. as heretofore they were used or they may appoint all and every one to sit in the Church with their faces toward the East to stand up at the Epistles and Gospels c. yea what Ceremonies Jewish Popish Heathenish may they not impose provided they onely hold the foundation and keepe to those essentials which he calls matters of duty by restraining the unlawfulnesse of Will-worship to the essentialls he leaves men free to doe any thing in Religion pr●ter verbum so that it appeare not to them to be c●ntra verbum any thing they may adde to the Word or doe beside the Word so that the thing cannot be proved contrary to the Word Thirdly Mr. Hussey ibid. pag 4. 5. saith That the Parliament may require such as they receive for Preachers of truth to send out able men to supply the places and that without any regard to the allowance or dis-allowance of the people Where in the first part of that which he saith there is either a Heterodoxie or a controdiction A heterodoxie if he meane that Ministers are to be sent out without Ordination a contradiction if he meane that they must be Ordained for then he gives Classes a worke which is not meerly Doctrinall But most strange it is that he so farre departeth from Protestant Divines in point of the Churches liberty in chusing Ministers He tells us pag. 14. that Mr. Herle for want of skill and Theologicall Disputations hath granted to people a right to chuse their Minister Master Herles skill both Logicall and Theologicall is greater then it seemes he can well Judge of neither can this bold arrogant censure of his derogate from Mr. Herles but from his owne reputation For the matter it selfe it is one and not the least of the Controversies between the Papists and Protestants what right the Church hath in the Vocation of Ministers Read Bellarmine de cleric and those that writ against him and see whether it be not so The Helvetick confession tells us that the right chusing of Ministers is by the consent of the Church and the Belgick confession saith We beleeve that the Ministers Seniors and Deacons ought to be called to those their Functions and by the lawfull elections of the Church to be advanced into those roomes See both these in the Harmony of Confessions Sect. 11. I might here if it were requisite bring a heape of Testimonies from Protestant Writers the least thing which they can admit of is that a Minister be not obtruded renitente Ecclesia Factum valet fieri non debet It may be helped after it is done without making null or void the Ministery but in a well constituted Church there ought to be no