Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	ordination_n	power_n	presbyter_n	3,665	5	10.0489	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77478	A review of the seditious pamphlet lately pnblished [sic] in Holland by Dr. Bramhell, pretended Bishop of London-Derry; entitled, His faire warning against the Scots discipline. In which, his malicious and most lying reports, to the great scandall of that government, are fully and clearly refuted. As also, the Solemne League and Covenant of the three nations justified and maintained. / By Robert Baylie, minister at Glasgow, and one of the commissioners from the Church of Scotland, attending the King at the Hague.	Baillie, Robert, 1599-1662.	1649 (1649)	Wing B467; Thomason E563_1; ESTC R10643	69,798	84

two Presbyters who chance to be neer a Bishop the only pastor of the whole diocess and yet not bound to feed any flock either by Word or Sacrament or Government but having a free liberty to devolve all that service upon others and himself to wait at Court so many years as he shall think fit This is our English Bishop not only in practice but in Law and so was he defended by the great disputants for Prelacy in England The portion of Episcopa●y whi● yet is stu to cannot be kept upon any principle either of honor or conscience But now let the Warner speak out if any such Bishop can more be defehded or was ever known in Scripture or seen in any Christian Church for 800 years and above after the death of Christ I take it indeed to be Conscience that forces now at last the best of our Court-Divines to devest their Bishop of all civil employment in Parliament Court or Kingdom in denying his solitariness in ordination in removing his official and Commissary courts in taking away all his arches Arch-Bishop● Arch-Deacons Dean and Chapter c. in erecting Presbyteries for all ordinations and spiritual jurisdiction It is good that conscience moves our adversaries at last to come thus far towards us But why will they not yet come neerer to acknowledg that by these their too lately recanted errors they did too long trouble the world and that the little which yet they desire to keep of a Bishop is nothing less then that English Bishop but a new creature of their own devising never known in England which his Majesty in no honor is obliged to maintain for any respect either to the Laws or Customs of England and least of all for Conscience The smallest portion of the most moderate Episcopacy is contrary to Scripture While the Warner with such confidence avows that no text of Scripture can be alledged against Episcopacy which may not with more reason be applyed against the Presbytery behold I offer him here some few casting them in a couple of arguments which according to his great promises I wish he would answer at his leasure First I do reason from Ephes 4.11 all the officers that Christ hath appointed in his Church for the Ministry of the Word are either Apostles Evangelists Prophets pastors or Doctors but Bishops are none of these five Ergo they are none of the officers appointed by Christ for the Ministry of the Word The major is not wont to be questioned the minor thus I prove Bishops are not Apostles Evangelists nor prophets for it s confessed all these were extraordinary and temporary Officers but Bishops say you are ordinary and perpetual our adversaries pitch upon the fourth alledging the Episcopal office to be pastoral but I prove the Bishop no Pastor thus no Pastor is superior to other Pastors in any spiritual power but according to our adversary a Bishop is superior to all the Pastors of his Diocess in the power of ordination and jurisdiction Ergo The doubt here is onely of the major which I prove Argumento à paribus no Apostle is superior to an Apostle nor an Evangelist to an Evangelist nor Prophet to a Prophet nor a Doctor to a Doctor in any spiritual power according to Scripture Ergo no pastor to a pastor Again I reason from 1 Tim. 4.14 Mat. 18.15 1 Cor. 5.4 12 13. What takes the power of ordination and jurisdiction from Bishops destroys Bishops as the removal of the soul kills the man and the denyal of the form takes away the subject so the power of ordination and jurisdiction the essential form whereby the Bishop is constitute and distinguished from the Presbyter and every other Church officer being removed from him he must perish but the quoted places take away clearly these powers from the Bishop for the first puts the power of ordination in the Presbytery and a Bishop is not a Presbytery the second puts the power of jurisdiction in the Church and the third in a company of men which meet together but the Bishop is not the Church nor a company of men met together for these be many and he is but one person When the Doctors learning hath satified us in these two he shall receive more Scriptural arguments against Episcopacy The Prelats unable to answer their opposites But why do we expect answers from these men when after so long time for all their boasts of learning and their visible leasure none of their party has had the courage to offer one word of answer to the Scriptures and Fathers which in great plenty Mr Parker and Mr Didoclave of old and of late that miracle of learning most noble Somais and that Magazin of antiquity Mr Blondel have printed against them What in the end of the Chapter the Warner adds of our trouble at King James his fifty and five questions ●●96 and of our yeelding the bucklers without any opposition till the late unhappy troubles we answer that in this as every where else the Warner proclaims his great and certain knowledg of our Ecclesiastick story the troubles of the Scots Divines at that time were very small for the matter of these questions all which they did answer so roundly that there was no more speech of them thereafter by the propounders but the manner and time of these questions did indeed perplex good men to see Erastian and Prelatical counsellors so far to prevail with our King as to make him by captious questions carp at these parts of Church-discipline which by Statutes of Parliament and Acts of Assemblies were fully established Our Church at that time was far from yeelding to Episcopacy Prelacy was ever grievous to Scotland great trouble indeed by some wicked States-men was then brought upon the persons of the most able and faithful Ministers but our Land was so far from receiving of Bishops at that time that the question was not so much as proposed to them for many years thereafter it was in Ann. 1606. that the English Prelates did move the King by great violence to cast many of the best and most learned Preachers of Scotland out of their charges and in An. 1610. that a kind of Episcopacy was set up in the corrupt Assembly of Glasgow under which the Church of Scotlād did heavily groan till the year 1637. when their burthens was so much increased by the English Prelatical Tax-masters that all was shaken off together and divine Justice did so closely follow at the heels that oppressing Prelacy of England as to the great joy of the long oppressed Scots that evil root and all its branches was cast out of Britain where we trust no shadow of it shall ever again be seen CHAP. IX The Commonwealth is no monster when God is made Soveraign and the commands of men are subordinated to the clear will of God HAving cleared the vanity of these calumnious challenges wherewith the Warner did animate the King and all

O●dinance to a standing Law the Kings consent is required but with what qualifications and exceptions wee need not here to debate since his Majesties consent to the present case of abolishing Bishops was obtained well neere to as farre as was desired and what it yet lacking wee are in a faire way to obtaine it for the Kings Majestie long agoe did agree to the rooting out of Episcopacy in Scotland hee was willing also in England and Ireland to put them out of the Parliament and all civil Courts and to divest them of all civill power and to joyne with them Presbyteries for Ordination and spirituall jurisdiction yea to abolish them totally name and thing not onely for three yeares but ever till he and his Parliament should agree upon some setled order for the Church was not this Tantamont to a pertuall abolition for all and every one in both houses having abjured Episopacy by solemne Oath and Covenant the Parliament was in no hazard of agreeing with the King to re-erect the fallen chaires of the Bishops so there remained no other but that either his Majestie should come over to their judgement or by his not agreeing with them yet really to agree with them in the perpetuall abolition of Episcopacy since the confession was for the laying Bishops aside for ever till hee and his houses had agreed upon a settled order for the Church If this be not a full and formall enough consent to the Ordinance of changing the former Lawes anent praelats his Majestie who now is easily may and readily would supply all such defects if some of the faction did not continually for their owne evil interests whisper in his eares pernicious counsell as our Warner in this place also doeth by frighting the King in conscience from any such consent The praelats would fl●tter the King into a Tyranny for this end he casts out a discourse the sinews whereof are in these three Episcopall maximes First that the legislative power is soly in the King that is according to his Brethrens Commentary that the Parliament is but the Kings great councel of free choyce without or against whose votes hee may make or unmake what Lawes he thinkes expedient but for them to make any Ordinance for changing without his consent of any thing that has been instituting any new thing or for them to defend this their legall right and custome time out of minde against the armes of the Malignant party no man may deny it to be plaine rebellion II. The praelates take to themselves a negative voice in Parliament That the King and Parliament both together cannot make a Law to the prejudice of Bishops without their owne consent they being the third order of the Kindome for albeit it be sacriledge in the Lords and Commons to claime any the smallest share of the legislative power this in them were to pyck the chiefest jewel out of the Kings Crowne yet this must be the due priviledge of the Bishops they must be the third order of the Kingdome yea the first and most high of the three farre above the other two temporall States of Lords and Commons their share in the Legislative power must be so great that neither King nor Parliament can passe any Law without their consent so that according to their humble protestation all the Lawes and Acts which have been made by King and Parliament since they were expelled the house of Lords are cleerly void and null Wee must grant that the King and Parliament in divesting Bishops of their temporall honour and estates The praelats grieve that Monks and Friers the Pope and Cardinals were casten out of England by H. in abolishing their places in the Church doe sin more against conscience then did Henry the eight and his Paliament when they put down the Abbots and the Friers We must beleeve that Henry the eight his abolishing the order of Monks was one of the acts of his greatest Tyranny and greed we must not doubt but according to Law and reason Abbots and Priours ought to have kept still their vote in Parliament that the Monasteryes and Nunryes should have stood in their integrity that the King and Parliament did wrong in casting them downe and that now they ought in conscience to be set up againe yea that Henry the eight against all reason and conscience did renounce his due obedience to the Pope the Patriarch of the West the first Bishop of the universe to whom the superinspection and government of the whole Catholick Church in all reason doth belong Though all this be here glaunced at by the Warner and elsewhere wee prove it to be the declared mind of his Brethren yet we must be pardoned not to accept them as undenyable princ●ples of cleare demonstrations The just supremacy of Kings is not prejudged by the Covenant The last ground of the Doctors demonstration is that the Covenant is an Oath to set up the Presbyterian government in England as it is in Scotland that this is contrary to the Oath of Supremacy for the Oath of Supremacy makes the ●ing the onely supreame head and Governour of the Church of England that is the civill head to see that every man doe his duty in his calling also it gives the King a supreame power over all persons in all causes but the Presbytery is a Politicall Papacie acknowledging no governour but only the Presbyters it gives the King power over all persons as Subjects but none at all in Ecclesiastick causes Ans Is there in all this reasoning any thing sound First what article of the Covenant beares the setting up of the Presbyterian government in England as it is in Scotland II. If the Oath of supremacy import no more then what the Warners expresse words are here that the King is a civill head to see every man doe his duty in his calling let him be assured that no Presbyterian in Scotland was ever contrary to that supremacy III. That the Presbytery is a Papacy and that a politicall one the Warner knowes it ought not to be granted upon his bare word IV. That In Scotland no other governors are acknowledged then Presbyters himselfe contradicts in the very next words where hee tells that the Scots Presbytery ascribs to the King a power over all persons as subjects V. That any Presbyterian in Scotland makes it sacriledge to give the King any power at all in any Ecclesiastick cause The Warner● insolent Vanity it is a senselesse untruth The Warners arguments are not more idle and weake then his triumphing upon them is insolent for he concludes from these wife and strong demonstrations that the poore covenant is apparently deceitfull unvalide impious rebellious and what not yea that all the learned divines in Europe will conclude it so that all the Covenanters themselves who have any ingenuity must grant thus much and that no knowing English man can deny it but his own conscience will give him the lie

attempt of the royal authority About that time some noble men had got the revenues of the Bishop-ricks for their private use and because they could not enjoy them by any legal right therefore for eluding the Law they did effectuate that some Ministers should have the title of this or that Bishoprick and the revenues were gathered in the name of this titulare or tulchan Bishop albeit he had but little part e. g. Robert Montgomery Minister at Sterline was called Arch-Bishop of Glasgow and so it can be instanced in other Bishop-ricks and Abbacies Now this kind of praelats pretended no right to any part of the Episcopal office either in ordination or jurisdiction when some of these men began to creep in to vote for the Church in Parliament without any Law of the State without any commission from the Church the General assembly discharged them being Ministers to practise any more such illegal insolencies with this ordinance of the Church after a little debate King James at that time did shew his good satisfaction The innocency of the much maligned assembly of Aberdeen But the Warner here jumps over no less then twenty seven years time from the assembly at Edingburgh 1579. to that at Aberdeen 1605. then was King James by the English Bishops perswasion resolved to put down the general assemblies of Scotland contrary to the Lawes and constant practice of that Church from the first reformation to that day The act of Parliament did bear that once at least a year the assembly should meet and after their business was ended they should name time and place for the next assembly When they had met in the yeer 1602 they were moved to adjurn without doing any thing for two whole years to 1604 when then they were conveened at the time and place agreed to by his Majestie they were content upon his Majesties desire without doing any thing to adjourn to the next year 1605 at Aberdeen when that dyet came his Majesties Commissioner offered him a Letter To the end they might be an Assembly and so in a Capacity to receive his Majesties Letter with the Commissioners good pleasure they sate down they named their Moderator and Clark they received and read the Kings letter commanding them to rise which they obeyed without any further action at all but naming a dyet for the next meeting according to the constant practise of Scotland hereupon by the pernicious counsel of the Arch-Bishop Banckroft at London the King was stirred up to bring sore troubles upon a number of gratious Ministers This is the whole matter which to the Warner here is so tragick an insolence that never any Parliament durst attempt the like See more of this in the Historicall vindication * Christmas and other superstitious festivals abolished in Scotland both by Church and State The next instance of our Presbiteryes usurpation upon the Magistrate is their abolition before any statute of Parliament thereupon of the Church festivals in their first book of discipline Ans Consider the griveousness of this crime in the intervall of Parliaments the great Councel of Scotland in the minority of the Prince entrusted by Parliament to rule the Kingdom did charge the Church to give them in write their judgement about matters Ecclesiasticall in obedience to this charge the Church did present the councel with a write named since the first book of discipline a which the Lords of councel did approve subscribe and ratifie by an Act of State a part of the first head in that write was that Christmas Epiphany Purification and other fond feasts of the Virgin Mary as not warrented by the holy Scriptures should be laid aside Was it any encroachment upon the Magistrate for the Church to give this advice to the privy councel when earnestly they did crave it the people of Scotland ever since have shewed their ready obedience to that direction of the Church founded upon Scripture and backed from the beginning with an injunction of the State His third instance of the Church of Scotlands usurpation upon the Magistrate is The friends of Episcopacy thryves not in Scotland their abolition of Episcopacy in the assembly 1580 when the Law made it treason to impugne the Authority of Bishops being the third estate of the Kingdom Ans The Warner seems to have no more knowledge of the affaires of Scotland then of Japan or Utopia the Law he speaks of was not in being some years after 1580 however all the general assemblies of Scotland are authorised by Act of Parliament to determin finally without an appeal in all Eclesiastick affairs in the named assembly Lundie the Kings Commissioner did sit and consent in his Majesties name to that act of abolition as in the next assembly 1581 the Kings Commissioner Caprinton did erect in his Majesties name the Presbyteries in all the Land it is true three years thereafter a wicked Courtier Captain James Stuart in a shadow of a close and not summoned Parliament did procure an act to abolish Presbyterie and erect Bishops but for this and all other crimes that evil man was quickly rewarded by God before the world in a terrible destruction these acts of this Parliament the very ●●●t year were disclaimed by the King the Bishops were put down and the Presbytery was set up again and never more removed to this day The Warners digression to the perpetuity of Bishops in Scotland to the acts of the Church and State for their restitution is but to shew his ignorance in the Scots story what ever be the Episcopall boasting of other Nations yet it is evident that from the first entrance of Christian Religion into Scotland Presbyters alone without Bishops for some hundred years did govern the Church and after the reformation there was no Bishop in that Land but in tittle and benefice till the year 1610 when Bancroft did consecrate three Scots Ministers all of them men of evil report whom that violent Commissioner the Earl of Dunbar in the corrupt and nul assembly of Glasgow got authorised in some part of a Bishops office which part only and no more was ratified in a posterior Parliament Superintendents are nowhere the same with Bishops much less in Scotland where for a time only til the Churches were planted they were used as ambulatory Commissioners and visitors to preach the word and administer the Sacraments for the supply of vacant and unsetled congregations The second book of discipline why not at all ratified in Parliament The fourth instance is the Churches obtruding the second book of discipline without the ratification of the State Ans For the Ecclesiastick enjoyning of a general assemblies decrees a particular ratification of Parliament is unnecess●ry general acts of Pa●liament commanding obedience to the acts of the Church are a sufficient warrant from the State beside that second book of disciplin was much debated with the King and at last in the General assembly 1590 his consent was obtained unto

as the Court required against his Majesties countenancing of treacherous Papists and favouring the enemies of Religion a severe Sentence was pronounced not only against Master Black but also all the Ministers of Edinburgh In the mean time The Tumult of the seventeenth day of December was harmless and no Minister guilty of it malcontented States-men did adde oyl to the flame and at the very instant while the Ministers and their friends are offering a Petition to his Majesty they suborn a villane to cry in one part of the Streets That the Ministers are slain and in another part of the Streets That the King was killed whereupon the People rush all out to the Streets in their Armes and for half an hour at most were in a tumult upon meer ignorance what the fray might be but without the hurt of any one man so soon as it was found that both the King and Ministers were safe the people went all peaceably to their houses This is the very truth of that innocent commotion whereupon the Warner here and his fellowes elsewhere make all their Tragedies None of the Ministry were the Authors or approvers thereof though divers of them suffered sore troubles for it CHAP. V. No Presbyterian ever intended to Excommunicate any Supream Magistrate THe Warner in his fifth Chapter The Prelats ordinarily but the Presbytery never were for rash Excommunications charges the Scots for subjecting the King to the censure of Excommunication and bringing upon Princes all the miseries which the Popes Excommunications of o●d were wont to bring upon Anathematised Emperours Ans It does not become the Warner and his fellowes to object to any the abuse of the dreadfull sentence of Excommunication no Church in the world was ever more guilty of that fault then the Prelats of England and Ireland did they ever censure their own Officials for the pronouncing of that terrible sentence most profanly against any they would had it been for the non-payment of the smallest sums of money As for the Scots their doctrine and practice in the point of Excommunication is as considerate as any other Church in the world that censure in Scotland is most rare and only in the case of obstinacy in a great sin what ever be their doctrine in generall with all other Christians and as I think with the P elaticall party themselves that the object of Christian doctrine Sacraments and Discipline is one and the same and that no member of Christ no son of the Church may plead a highness above admonitions and Church Censures yet I know they never thought it expedient so much as to intend any Processe of C●u●●h a●●●●dversion against their Soveraign To the worlds end I hope they shall not have again greater grievances and truer causes of ●●ritation from their Princes th n they have had already It may be confidently believed that they who upon so pregnant occasio●s d●d never so much as intend the beginning of a Process against their King can never be sup●osed in danger of any such proceeding for time to come The Prelates flatter Princes to their ruine However we love not the abused ground of the Warners flattering of Princes to their own great hur is it so indeed that all the sins of the Princes are only against God that all Kings are not only above all Laws of Church and State but when they fall into the greatest crimes that the worst of men have ever committed that even then their sins must not be against any man or against any Law such Episcopall Doctrine spurs on Princes to these unhappy precipices and oppressed people unto these out-rages that both fall into inextricable calamities CHAP. VI. It grieves the Prelates that Presbyterians are faithfull Watchmen to admonish Princes of their duty The Scots Ministers Preaching for Justice was just and necessary THE sixth Chapter is spent on an other crime of Presbytery it makes the Presbyters cry to the Magistrate for Justice upon capitall Offenders Ans What has Presbytery to doe with this matter were it never so great an offence will the Warner have all the faults of the Prelaticall Faction flow from the fountain of Episcopacy this unconsequentiall reasoning will not be permitted to men below the degrees of Doctors But was it a very great crime indeed for Ministers to plead the cause of the fatherlesse and widowes yea the cause of God their Maker and to preach unto Magistrates that according to Scriptures murtherers ought to die and the Land bee purged from the staine of innocent blood when the shamefull impunity of murther made Scotland by deadly feuds in time of peace a field of war and blood was it not time for the faithful servants of God to exhort the King to execute justice and to declare the danger of most frequent pardons drawn from his hand often against his heart by the opportunity and deceitfull information of powerful solicitors to the great offence of God against the whole Land to the unexpressible grief and wrong of the suffering party to the opening also of a new floodgate of more blood which by a legall revenge in time easily might have been stopped Too much pity in sparing the wilfull shedders of innocent blood ordinarily proves a great cruelty not only towards the disconsolate oppressed who cry to the vicegerents of God the avenger for justice in vain but also towards the soul of him who is spared and the life of many more who are friends either to the oppressor or oppressed As for the named case of Huntly let the world judge Huntleys notorious crymes whether the Ministers had reason often to give Warning against that wicked man and his complices Beside his apostasie and after-seeming repentance his frequent relapses into avowed Popery in Eighty eight he banded with the King of Spaine to overthrow the religion and government of the whole Island and after pardon from time to time did renew his treasonable plots for the ruine of Britain he did commit many murders he did invade under the nose of the King the house of his Cousin the Earl of Murray and most cruelly murdered that gallant Nobleman he appeared with displayed Banner against the King in person he killed thereafter many hundreds of the Kings good people when these multiplyed outrages did cry up to the God of heaven was it not time for the men of God to cry to the Judges of the earth to doe their duty according to the warrant of many Scriptures What a dangerous humor of flattery is this in our Prelates not onely to lull a sleep a Prince in a most sinful neglect of his charge but also to cry out upon others more faithful then themselves for assaying to break off their slumber Never any question in Scotland betwixt the King the Church for Tythes and Patronages by their wholsom and seasonable admonitions from the Word of God The next challenge of the Scots Presbyters is that they spoile the

know and bee assured that their calling and Ministery is null The words immediatly following are scraped out after their Printing for what cause the Author best knoweth but the purpose in hand makes it probable that the deletted words did expresse more of his minde then it was safe in this time and place to speake out it was the late Doctrine of Doctor Brambles prime friends that the want of Episcopall ordination did ot onely annull the calling of all the Ministers of France Holland Zwit-zerland and Germany but also did hinder all these Societies to bee true Churches for that popular Sophisme of the Jesuits our Prelats did greedily swallow where are no true Sacrament there is no true Church and where is no true Ministry there are no true Sacraments and where no true ordination there is no true Ministry and where no Bishops there in no true ordination and so in no reformed Country but in England and Ireland where were true Bishops is any true Church When Episcopacy comes to this height of elevation that the want of it must annull the Ministry yea the very being of all the Reformed Churches at one strock is it any marvell that all of them do concurre together for their own preservation to abolish this insolent abaddon and destroyer and notwithstanding all its ruine have yet no discomfort at all nor any the least doubt of their most lawfull ordination by the hands of the Presbytery The Prelats are so basely injurious to all the Reformed Churches that their selfes are ashamed of it After all this was written as here it stands another copy of the Warners book was brought to my hand wherin I found the deleted line stand Printed in these distinct termes and put it to a dangerous question whether it be within the payle of the Church the deciphering of these words puts it beyond all peradventure that what I did conjecture of the Warner and his Brethrens minde of the state of all the reformed Churches was no mis-take but that they do truely judge the want of Episcopall Ordination to exclude all the Ministers of other Reformed Churches and their flocks also from the lines of the true Church This indeed is a most d●ngerous question for it stricks at the root of all If the Warner out of remorse of conscience had blotted out of his booke that errour the Repentance had beene commendable But hee has left so much yet behind unscraped out as does shew his minde to continue what it was so that feare alone to provoke the reformed here at this unseasonable time seemes to have been the cause of deleting these too cleare expressions of the prelaticall tenent against the very being and subsistence of all the Protestant Churches which want Episcopacy where these men doe still stand upon the extreme pinacle of impudency and arrogance denying the Reformed to be true Churches and without scruple averring Rome as shee stands this day under the councell of Trent to be a Church most true wherin there is an easy way of salvation from which all separaion is needlesse and with which a re-union were much to be desired That gracious faction this day is willing enough to perswade or at least to rest content without any opposition that the King should of himselfe without and before a Parliament though contrary to many standing Lawes grant under his hand and sa●● a full liberty of Religion to the bloudy Irish and to put in their hands both armes Castles and prime Places of trust in the State that the King should give assurance of his endeavour to get all these ratified in the next Parliament of England these men can heare with all moderation and patience but behold their fu ious impatience their whole art and industry is wakned when they heare of any appearance of the Kings inclination towards covenanting Protestants night and day they beate in his Majesties head that all the mischiefes of the World doe lurke in that miserable Covenant that de●th and any misfortune that the ruine of all the Kingdomes ought much rather to be imbraced by His Majesty then that prodigious Monster that very hell of the Covenant because for sooth it doth oblige in plaine termes the taker to endeavour in his station the abolition of their great Goddesse Prelacy The next hurt of Ministers from the Presbytry is The generality of Episcopall Clergy have ever been covered with ignorance beggery and contempt that by it they are brought to ignorance contempt and beggery Ans Whither Episcopacy or Presbytry is the fittest instrumen to avert these evills let reason or experience teach men to judge The P●esbyteriall discipline doth oblige to a great deale of severer tryalls in all sort of learning requisite in a divine before ordination then doth the Episcopall let either the rule or practise of Presbyterian and Episcopall ordination be compared or the weekly Exercises and monthly disputations in Latine upon the controverted heads be looked upon which the Presbytery exacts of every Minister after his ordination all the dayes of his life for experience let the French Dutch and Scots divines who have beene or yet are be compared with the ordinary Generation of the English Clergy and it will be found that the Prelates have not great reason so superciliously to looke downe with contempt upon their Brethrens learning I hope Cartwright Whitaker Perkins Reynolds Parker Ames and other Presbyterian English were inferior in learning to none of their opposits some of the English Bishops have not wanted good store of learning but the most of them I believe will be content to leave of boasting in this subject what does the Warner speak to us of ignorance contempt and Beggery does not all the World know that albeit some few scarce one of twenty did brooke good benefices yea plurality of them whereby to live in splendor at Court or where they listed in their non-residency neverthelesse it hath bin much complained that the greatest part of the Priests who have the cure of the soules thorow all the Kingdome of England were incomparably the most ignorant beggerly and contemptible Clergy that ever have bin seen in any of the reformed Churches neither did we ever heare of any great study in the Prelats to remedy these evills albeit some of them be provider t enough for their owne Families Doctor Bramble knowes who had the skill before they had sitten seven yeare in their chaire to purchase above fifteen hundred pounds a year for themselves and their heirs what some-ever The Prelats continue to hate preaching and prayer but to idolize a popish service The third evill which the Presbytery brings upon Ministers is that it makes them prate and pray nonsence everlastingly Ans It is indeed a great heartbreake unto ignorant lazy and unconsciencious Ministers to be put to the paines of Preaching and Prayer when a read service was wont to be all their exercise but we thought th●t all indifferently ingenuous men had long