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church_n ordination_n power_n presbyter_n 3,665 5 10.0489 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A44973 An humble apology for non-conformists with modest and serious reflections on the Friendly debate and the continuation thereof / by a lover of truth and peace. Norton, John, 1606-1663. 1669 (1669) Wing H3402; ESTC R20176 79,882 174

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quest_n do_v the_o nonconforming-minister_n pre-end_n now_o to_o pray_v by_o the_o spirit_n as_o if_o the_o holy-ghost_n shall_v immediate_o infuse_v method_n matter_n and_o word_n whilst_o they_o pray_v answ_n mr._n hollingworth_n sometime_o a_o prime_n presbyterian_a in_o lancashire_n shall_v answer_v for_o they_o they_o do_v not_o hold_v that_o they_o ought_v not_o to_o take_v buy_v beforehand_o what_o they_o shall_v pray_v expect_v that_o the_o holy-ghost_n shall_v immediate_o inspire_v they_o with_o method_n matter_n and_o word_n of_o prayer_n who_o ever_o say_v it_o be_v not_o they_o that_o pray_v but_o the_o holy-ghost_n pray_v in_o they_o and_o yet_o in_o this_o duty_n as_o well_o as_o in_o other_o the_o son_n of_o god_n be_v lead_v by_o the_o spirit_n of_o god_n which_o be_v a_o spirit_n of_o grace_n and_o supplication_n and_o because_o we_o know_v not_o what_o to_o ask_v he_o help_v our_o infirmity_n and_o we_o may_v be_v say_v to_o pray_v in_o the_o spirit_n not_o only_o 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instrument_n of_o cruelty_n be_v in_o their_o habitation_n curse_a be_v their_o anger_n for_o it_o be_v fierce_a and_o their_o wrath_n for_o it_o wat_fw-mi cruel_a and_o we_o each_o one_o say_v o_o my_o soul_n come_v not_o thou_o into_o their_o secret_n unto_o their_o assembly_n my_o honour_n be_v not_o thou_o unite_v but_o let_v god_n divide_v they_o in_o jacob_n and_o scatter_v they_o in_o israel_n mr._n bridge_n be_v not_o in_o town_n then_o which_o may_v be_v suppose_v the_o reason_n we_o find_v not_o his_o name_n among_o the_o subscriber_n as_o for_o w._n b._n whether_o his_o write_n be_v so_o faulty_a as_o they_o be_v charge_v to_o be_v in_o the_o debate_n i_o can_v tell_v have_v not_o read_v they_o but_o a_o conformable_a doctor_n tell_v i_o that_o he_o have_v search_v they_o and_o that_o the_o author_n of_o the_o debate_n have_v deal_v disingenious_o in_o his_o quotation_n of_o he_o etc._n etc._n quest._n may_v not_o every_o whit_n as_o much_o be_v say_v for_o the_o papist_n why_o they_o shall_v be_v tolerate_v as_o to_o the_o public_a exercise_n of_o their_o religion_n as_o for_o nonconformist_n do_v not_o they_o profess_v all_o loyalty_n to_o his_o majesty_n and_o declare_v against_o all_o rebellion_n answ_n the_o papist_n depend_v upon_o a_o foreign_a power_n in_o ecclesiastical_a affair_n superior_a as_o they_o think_v to_o his_o majesty_n and_o it_o be_v subscribe_v by_o twelve_o bishop_n in_o ireland_n as_o follow_v their_o religion_n be_v superstitious_a and_o idolatrous_a their_o faith_n and_o doctrine_n erroneous_a and_o heretical_a their_o church_n in_o respect_n of_o both_o apostatical_a whereas_o the_o nonconformist_n whether_o presbyter_n or_o congregationist_n agree_v with_o the_o church_n of_o england_n in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n and_o sacrament_n differ_v not_o in_o any_o substantial_a part_n of_o religion_n from_o she_o what_o the_o papist_n practice_n have_v be_v how_o dangerous_a to_o the_o civil_a peace_n the_o history_n of_o england_n in_o q._n elizabeth_n day_n can_v tell_v we_o that_o it_o be_v impossible_a for_o any_o nation_n to_o be_v free_a from_o trouble_n or_o treason_n so_o long_o as_o they_o suffer_v jesuit_n among_o they_o say_v watson_n in_o his_o quodlibet_n and_o that_o he_o and_o his_o order_n be_v not_o so_o good_a and_o loyal_a as_o they_o pretend_v may_v be_v guess_v from_o hence_o that_o he_o himself_o be_v afrerwards_o execute_v for_o treason_n moreover_o papist_n can_v when_o they_o have_v power_n long_o live_v without_o persecute_v protestant_n say_v a_o reverend_a doctor_n hence_o may_v appear_v that_o we_o see_v k._n h._n iii_o of_o france_n stab_v and_o lamn_v because_o he_o will_v not_o persecute_v they_o enough_o so_o the_o answer_n to_o the_o papist_n apology_n p._n 21._o as_o for_o quaker_n they_o may_v seem_v to_o be_v the_o very_a spawn_n of_o the_o romish_a emissary_n proselyte_v by_o they_o but_o make_v more_o dangerous_a to_o magistrate_n and_o all_o civil_a society_n by_o this_o one_o principle_n that_o they_o hold_v viz._n that_o they_o ought_v to_o be_v guide_v and_o to_o act_v not_o by_o the_o scripture_n nor_o according_a to_o the_o command_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n or_o spiritual_a guide_n and_o pastor_n but_o by_o and_o sudden_a flash_n or_o light_n within_o they_o i_o be_o not_o satisfy_v to_o have_v a_o hand_n in_o the_o execution_n of_o the_o sanguinary_a law_n against_o papist_n yet_o shall_v be_v loath_a to_o try_v how_o sanguine_a or_o good_a nature_a they_o will_v be_v if_o they_o have_v power_n in_o their_o hand_n to_o execute_v the_o writ_n de_fw-fr haeretico_fw-la comburendo_fw-la if_o we_o may_v say_v of_o they_o as_o they_o use_v to_o say_v of_o fire_n and_o water_n they_o be_v good_a servant_n i_o be_o sure_a it_o be_v as_o true_a that_o they_o be_v but_o bad_a master_n quest_n how_o can_v we_o agree_v to_o live_v quiet_o with_o these_o nonconformist_n be_v they_o not_o so_o much_o divide_v from_o we_o in_o their_o judgement_n that_o they_o divide_v from_o we_o in_o their_o language_n also_o and_o in_o fine_a will_v bring_v all_o thing_n into_o a_o babel_n of_o confusion_n cont._n p._n 1._o answ_n the_o great_a number_n of_o they_o i_o presume_v speak_v as_o other_o do_v and_o conform_v to_o that_o ordinary_a phrase_n well_o i_o thank_v god_n if_o any_o when_o inquire_v of_o about_o their_o health_n say_v i_o be_o well_o through_o mercy_n they_o do_v but_o as_o the_o french_a protestant_n do_v they_o be_v sure_o few_o in_o comparison_n that_o say_v so_o common_o and_o i_o do_v not_o remember_v one_o minister_n that_o use_v to_o say_v so_o they_o that_o do_v possible_o have_v recover_v from_o some_o sickness_n or_o escape_v some_o danger_n which_o occasion_n they_o to_o use_v this_o expression_n but_o if_o you_o will_v be_v critical_a some_o think_v it_o a_o sign_n of_o a_o great_a humility_n to_o say_v i_o be_o well_o through_o mercy_n than_o the_o other_o i_o be_o well_o i_o thank_v god_n however_o it_o be_v not_o so_o liable_a to_o exception_n as_o to_o say_v i_o be_o well_o you_o faith_n as_o i_o have_v hear_v that_o some_o conformist_n do_v although_o bishop_n saunderson_n do_v not_o approve_v of_o that_o language_n in_o common_a discourse_n we_o do_v not_o hold_v it_o unlawful_a to_o use_v the_o name_n of_o god_n in_o our_o salutation_n as_o boaz_n do_v and_o can_v say_v and_o pray_v god_n save_o the_o king_n as_o hearty_o as_o yourselves_o i_o know_v ●o_o nonconforming-minister_n that_o hold_v it_o unlawful_a to_o teach_v child_n their_o catechism_n &_o prayer_n lest_o they_o shall_v take_v god_n name_n in_o vain_a and_o yet_o i_o must_v have_v leave_n to_o say_v that_o a_o reverend_a bishop_n do_v reckon_v that_o we_o sin_n against_o the_o three_o commandment_n by_o a_o irreverend_a and_o customary_a mention_n of_o god_n great_a and_o glorious_a name_n upon_o trivial_a occasion_n and_o a_o learned_a doctor_n in_o his_o exposition_n of_o the_o three_o commandment_n make_v it_o a_o duty_n not_o to_o use_v the_o name_n of_o god_n but_o with_o great_a reverence_n see_v dr._n pat._n catech._n quest_n be_v nonconformist_n most_o guilty_a of_o break_v the_o three_o commandment_n in_o the_o main_a sense_n see_v cont_n p._n 4._o answ_n mr._n case_n mr._n edward_n and_o the_o london_n minister_n cite_v by_o the_o author_n of_o the_o debate_n in_o his_o continuation_n all_o prove_v they_o be_v very_o tender_a of_o the_o breach_n of_o a_o oath_n desirous_a to_o keep_v far_o from_o it_o themselves_o and_o to_o save_v other_o with_o fear_n pluck_v they_o out_o of_o the_o fire_n and_o the_o present_a eject_v and_o deject_a estate_n of_o the_o nonconformist_n may_v testify_v that_o they_o be_v such_o as_o fear_v a_o oath_n the_o presbyterian_o be_v bold_a to_o say_v in_o one_o of_o their_o paper_n to_o his_o majesty_n that_o the_o obligation_n of_o the_o covenant_n upon_o the_o conscience_n of_o the_o nation_n be_v not_o the_o weak_a instrument_n of_o his_o return_n as_o to_o your_o citation_n out_o of_o mr._n john_n goodwin_n and_o mr._n john_n lilborne_n i_o say_v there_o lie_v a_o exception_n against_o the_o witness_n in_o the_o case_n as_o i_o suppose_v you_o may_v say_v if_o their_o testimony_n be_v produce_v against_o the_o hierarchy_n liturgy_n and_o ceremony_n quest_n what_o may_v be_v the_o cause_n the_o author_n of_o the_o debate_n be_v so_o fierce_a against_o the_o protestation_n take_v by_o the_o parliament_n before_o the_o war_n and_o which_o his_o late_a majesty_n except_v not_o against_o when_o take_v although_o he_o be_v then_o at_o whitehall_n answ_n the_o true_a reason_n may_v be_v this_o because_o the_o house_n of_o commons_o put_v out_o a_o interpretation_n that_o by_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n which_o they_o promise_v to_o maintain_v they_o mean_v only_o the_o doctrine_n in_o opposition_n to_o popery_n and_o popish_a innovation_n and_o do_v not_o thereby_o oblige_v themselves_o or_o other_o to_o the_o maintenance_n of_o the_o discipline_n and_o government_n if_o that_o have_v be_v in_o it_o be_v to_o be_v think_v it_o will_v have_v go_v down_o as_o easy_o with_o man_n of_o his_o way_n as_o the_o et-caetera_a oath_n do_v concern_v which_o the_o historian_n give_v we_o this_o account_n that_o some_o bishop_n press_v it_o on_o minister_n before_o the_o day_n require_v to_o take_v it_o by_o the_o canon_n and_o enjoin_v they_o to_o take_v it_o kneel_v a_o ceremony_n not_o exact_v or_o observe_v in_o take_v the_o oath_n of_o allegiance_n and_o supremacy_n full._n hist_o 6.11_o p._n 17._o quest_n what_o be_v to_o be_v think_v of_o the_o continuation_n of_o the_o friendly_a debate_n answ_n it_o seem_v to_o be_v a_o unfriendly_a continuation_n of_o debate_n and_o strife_n contrary_a to_o the_o act_n of_o indemnity_n and_o to_o be_v a_o continue_a breach_n of_o