they are of the same mind and party M. Are you a Lawyer and do you accuse men in the Temple without naming them and bringing proof of their guilt Noxa caput sequitur should all the Clergy be called guilty if Sibthorp or Manwaring or Heylin were proved so what error you accuse them of prove and punish them for no other 6. But I prove that the Bishops themselves made other Ordination necessary Because they would Ordain none without sinful subscriptions and conditions which must not be yielded to If you can prove the terms lawful on which they Ordain I shall trie your skil anon II. I farther prove the Ordination in question valid thus Where there is a true notification of God's will that this person shall be a Minister of the Gospel there is no want of validity in his Ordination But those here ordained by Presbyters might have such a true notification of God's will Ergo The major is plain Because God's will and Man's consent are the fundamentum of the Relation therefore nothing can be wanting to it 's being and validity The Minor is proved Those men that have laudable ability and willingness and the consent of a people in true necessity and the approbation of a National Assembly of Learned Divines of which many Bishops were called to be members and the investing Ordination of the gravest Senior Pastors that were then to be had had a true notification of God's will that they should be his Ministers But such were these in question Ergo. III. The way of ordination which was valid in the Primitive Church is now valid But such is that in question Ergo. As to the Minor The Ordination of such Pastors as were but the Rectors of single Congregations was it that was valid in the Primitive Church But such is that in question Doctor Hammond labours to prove that in Scripture time there were no other Bishops or Presbyters but the single Pastors of single Assemblies Mr. Clerkson hath fully proved and I more fully in my Treatise of Episcopacy that for a hundred and fifty years if not much more there were no particular Churches bigger than our Parishes A Bishop then was but the chief Parish or Congregational Pastor who guided it with his Assistance And such are all our Incumbents especially in great Towns who have Chapels and Curates and Lecturers to assist them And Grotius de Imper. sum Pot. sheweth that really the chief Pastor of a Church is a Bishop whatever they call him But I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy pag. 231 232 c. that our questioned Ordainers were scripture Bishops and that those now called Presbyters Ordained long after that I must not repeat the same things here again IV. Those that are in Orders may confer Orders Ordinis est Ordinare as Vsher was wont to say As Physicians make Physicians and Philosophers make Philosophers and Geneâ—ation propagateth the Species And our Church consenteth to this 1. In that Presbyters must concur in Ordination by Imposition of hands which is an act of authority and collation 2. In that the Convocation hath a greater power even Canon making and that Convocation consisteth half and more of Presbyters and the Canons Excommunicateth all that deny it to be the represensative Church of England But Presbyters have the power of Order as Bishop Carlton de Iurisdict proveth it commonly acknowledged equal with Bishops pag. 7. And the Church of England in King Aelfrik's time ad Wolf. in Spelman pag. 576. l. 17. Affirm that Bishops and Presbyters are but one Order V. Those may ordain validly whose Ordination is more warrantable than that of Roman Bishops for our Bishops own theirs as valid and ordain them not again when they turn Protestants But the Presbyters that Ordained here fourteen years did it more warrantably than the Roman Bishops Ergo 1. The Papists Ordain men to a false Office to be Mass-Priests But the said Pastors ordained none but to the same office that Christ instituted 2. The Papists have their power of Ordination from the Pope whose own power and office in Specie is a false Usurpation But it is not so here where the ordaining Pastors were lawfully called 3. Papists Ordination enters them into a false Church in Specie a pretended catholick Church headed by the Pope but our Pastors entered them into no Church but Christs 4. Papists make them take sinful Oaths and Conditions before they Ordain them But these Pastors at least that imposed not the Covenant did not If yet any will nullifie the Reformed Churches and Ministry and their Ordination and not the Papists we may understand what their Mind and Communion is VI. That Ordination is valid which is less culpable than many Diocesans But such is that in question Ergo To the proof of the Minor which only needs proof here 1. Some Diocesans here have been Papists as Godfrey Goodman of Gloucester and divers have pleaded for and owned a Forreign Iurisdiction which the Oath of Supremacy abjureth 2. I have fully proved in the said Treatise of Episcopacy that the Office of Pastors of single Churches is more warrantable than our Diocesans who are the sole Bishops of many score or hundred Churches 3. The said Presbyters at least who medled not with the Covenant imposed no unlawful condition on the Ordained as too many Bishops have done 4. Many Bishops plead the derivation of their power from Rome And what theirs is I shewed before But because I must not write a Treatise on this one question you may read it done copiously and unanswerably by Voetius against Comel Iansenius de desperata Causa Papatus Yet I add one difference more The Ordainers and Ordained in question had the consent of the Flocks and neighbour Ministers but the said Bishops come in by the Magistrate without the consent or knowledge of the Flocks and so do the Ministers usually whom they Ordain And what the ancient Church thought of this abundance of Canons shew I 'le now cite but one Concil Nic. 2. Can. 3. Omnem Electionem quae fit a Magistratibus Episcopi Presbyteri vel Diaconi irritam manere ex canone dicente siquis Episcopus secularibus Magistratibus usus per eos Ecclesiam obtinuerit deponatur segregetur omnes qui cum eo Communicant Oportet enim eum qui est promovendus ad Episcopatum ab Episcopis eligi quemadmodum a sanctis patribus Nicaenis decretum est in Can. qui dicit Episcopum oportet maxime quidem ab omnibus qui sunt in provincia constitui And many Councils nullifie their Episcopacy that come not in by the election or consent of Clergy and People which ad hominem is somewhat to them that urge such Councils against us L. I confess your reasons seem unanswerable at least as to the case of necessity which I am convinced was the case of those that were ordained when there were no Bishops to whom they could have access or no
Offices as a Body of many Members or a Chain of many Links as we say Bonum est ex Causis integris And he that wounds any one Member wounds the Man and he that breaketh one Link breaketh the Chain And he that accuseth any one part of the Government accuseth the Government thereby And there is no doubt in the World but they so intended that made this Canon L. And what have you against your Obedience to this M. You may easily know what by what is already said 1. I have fully proved as aforesaid in my Treatise of Episcopacy that if Episcopacy were never so certainly of Divine Institution this Form of Diocesan Prelacy deposeth quantum in se the old Church Form the old Episcopacy the old Presbytery and almost all true Discipline and in stead of each sets up that which is repugnant to the Word of God. And must we all confederate to maintain this Church Corruption and all agree to renounce Reformation or any Conviction tending to Repentance 2. I have told you what it is for Lay-men and Courts to arrogate the Decretive Power of the Church Keys and for single Priests and Officials to rule all the Clergy and People as under them And for our Prelate to undertake to be the sole Bishop over many Hundred Clergy And then to Govern per alios in a secular manner even by Lay-men that do that in his Name which he knows not of and this in order to Gaols and Ruine If all this be agreeable to God's Word what is contrary to it 3. I have told you what it is to make every Church Officer so necessary as that it should be Excommunication to say Any one of them is sinful when as Learned good Men as most the World hath have written to prove almost all of them sinful corrupt Inventions of Arrogance and that it 's far worse for Men to presume to make new Forms and Offices of Church Government than new Ceremonies 4. The Parliament of England condemned the Oath called the caetera Oath in the Canon of 1640. And the late long Parliament of 1662. never restored it nor any since And was it not formed according to this Canon What 's c. but And the rest that bear Office therein reliquos ad ejusdem gubernaculum constitutos For my part tho' I have oft read over Cousins Tables and the Canons I do not yet know and remember all the Church Governing Courts and Offices How many there be besides the Bishop the Chancellors Court the Arches the Prerogative Court the Arch-deacons Commissaries Officials Surrogates I know not And are every one of these become as necessary to be taken for lawful as the twelve Apostles or the Articles of our Creed For my part I am far from thinking that those Bishops and Doctors should be Excommunicated or Damned who by Faction are drawn to deny the Ministry and Churches that have not Prelatical Ordination and Government and shall all be condemned that think as ill of Civilians Excommunicatings 5. I have told you what it is for every Lord Knight and Gentleman that doth but say that any of these Church Governing Offices are against the Word of God to be ipso facto an Excommunicate man. And for the people to be put to question whether they may chuse them for Parliament men and whether they may sit in Parliament while Excommunicate L. This Canon with the three or four adjoining make me begin to think hardlier of the Canoneers than I thought I should ever have done as to their honesty M. I would not have you think too hardly of them but only to think truly of Nonconformity Chap. XXVII Point XXIV Of Publishing the 8th Canons Excommunications L. VVHat is the Eighth Canon and its Excommunication M. Whoever shall hereafter affirm or teach that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth ANY THING in it that is repugnant to the Word of God Let them be Excommunicated ipso facto and not to be restored until he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. What have you against the Execution of this M. A great deal In sum it is unrighteous oppressing and dividing to cast out all Persons from the Church of Christ who think that nothing is faulty in the Book of Ordination or in their Principles or Practice there expressed And we dare not curse those that Christ doth bless should we do this for a Benefice in what should we differ from the sin of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness whose iniquity and madness his Ass rebuked saith St. Peter 2 Pet. 2. 15. Yea shall we not be far worse than he that for an House full of Silver and Gold could not go beyond the Word of the Lord and did not curse but bless Gods people And it is not proud malignant Tongues reviling Gods Servants and calling their Opinions wicked Errors that will make Christ disown his Members or will warrant Balaam or us to curse them O how unlike is this to the Spirit and Ministry of Christ for Prelates and Priests to curse and cast out the Children of God for saying that they go against his Law. L. But what is amiss in the Book of Ordination M. I am anon to tell you that But if there were nothing amiss in it yet the belief of its innocency is not necessary to Salvation L. But if every man have leave to accuse the Orders of the Church what Order can be maintained M. 1. Leave modestly to express dissent in a doubtful case may stand with Order 2. If men do it disorderly there be other Penalties besides ipso facto Excommunication Every breach of the peace is not Rebellion nor punisht with Death But I 'll tell you briefly what may occasion good men to say that their Ordinations are sinful 1. In that they thereby obtrude Pastors on the Churches upon the bare choice of a Patron without or against the peoples wills 2. In that they professedly ordain such as their Canon forbids to Preach or Expound any Doctrine 3. In that they determine that Bishops Priests and Deacons are three distinct Orders which yet is an undetermined Controversie among even the Learnedst Papists And must we damn and cut off men for that which the very Papists leave at liberty 4. In that they ordain men to an Office which Scripture maketh no mention of Dr. Hammond saith that it cannot be proved that there were any Presbyters subject to Bishops in Scripture times nor any but Bishops None that had not power of Ordination and the Keys nor any Bishops of a multitude of Churches and Presbyters both which are here ordained 5. In that they Swear Obedience to Arch-bishops and their Sees and make Priests Covenant Obedience to their Ordinaries as aforesaid If a godly man do as Bucer did to King Edward the Sixth as you may see in his Scripta Anglic. and desire some of these faults to be amended doth he deserve
forward to meddle with more publick Church matters without our Superiors invitation or consent but we may say that it is our judgment that these additions following would greatly strengthen the Interest of Religion Church and Concord I. That the Parish Churches be acknowledged True Churches and their Ministers such Overseers as are necessary to Essentiate True Churches that is That all Presbyters be Episcopi Gregis Overseers of the Flock and the Incumbent the President among his Curate Presbyters where there be such And that the Diocesan is not the sole Essentiating Church Pastors and the Diocesan Church the lowest particular Church and the Parish Assemblies but his Chapels or Parts of the lowest Church and the Parish Ministers his Curates and no true Pastors II. That no Lay-Elder Chancellour or Civilian have or use the Decretive Power of Excommunication or Absolution called the Keys III. That New and more Peaceable Canons be made instead of that Book which now obtaineth according to the Scripture Canons Or that there be no Canons but Scripture besides Statute Laws IV. That Bishops have no Forcing Power nor the Writ de Excommunicato Capiendo or any Force by the Sword be Annexed to Excommunication as such but that the Magistrates hear and judge before they punish and Obedience to Bishops be unconstrained and voluntary V. That Bishops judge Church-Causes in Session with their Presbyters and not alone nor with some few of their own Choice or with Lay-men but in regular Synods and Ordain there by their consent and after sufficient trial of them that seek Ordination And so of Institution VI. That Diocesses be not greater than the Diocesan is able to Oversee and that he forbid not the Parish Pastors their particular works but only use his general overcight and power on Appeals VII That Bishops oft visit the inferior Pastors and Churches and instruct the Juniors by direction and Example how to Preach and guide the Flock and rebuke the Erroneous Scandalous Unpeaceable and Negligent VIII That the Bishops be Chosen by the Diocesan Synod and Consented to freely without force by their City flocks where they reside and Invested by the King who hath the power of Temporal Privileges IX That the City and neighbour Pastors be the Cathedral Dean and Prebends at least where City Churches want maintenance or that they ambulatorily Preach abroad where there is most need X. If Arch-Bishop Usher's Form or Reduction of Government to the Primitive state or else King Charles the Second his Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs be but setled by Law it will be a Healing and Great Reformation inferior Synods not hurtfully fettered being allowed under the Diocesan Synods And whether the Diocesans be Called Bishops or Arch-Bishops as Successors to the Apostles and Evangelists in the ordinary parts of their Office a general care of many Churches the name is to be left to each mans free judgment As to the ignorant clamors for a real or seeming Re-ordination 1. I have said so much against it in my Treatise of Episcopacy and my Disputation of Ordination in my Dispute of Church-Government and my Christian Concord that while the objectors by contempt refuse to read and answer them it will be no cure of their pride and partiality to repeat the same again But I say that I have fully proved unanswered that they that were Ordained by Synods of Incumbent Pastors and specially those also then approved by the Westminster Assembly had a better Ordination and that by true Bishops than either Papists or meer English Diocesans that are not Arch-bishops can give And yet they Re-ordain not Papists 1. Either they take the parish-Parish-Churches that is the Pastor and Communicants distinct from the meer Auditors and Catechumens and from the Aliens to be true proper Churches in political Sense or not If yea Then those Churches have Bishops For Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata ubi Episcopus ibi Ecclesia Their own Principle is That it is no proper political Church without a Bishop There are three degrees of Bishops 1. All Presbyters are Episcopi Gregis by the consent of Papists and Protestants 2. The chief Incumbents that have Curates or may have are Episcopi Praesides The Ordination without Diocesans was by these two sorts of Bishops 3. True Diocesans are Arch-bishops Episcopi generales plurium Ecclesiarum We refuse not their Ordination but Men have true Episcopal Ordination without it But if they say that the Diocesan is the lowest Bishop of a particular Church and that the Parish-Incumbent Rectors are no true Bishops and their Assemblies no true political Churches formed of Bishops but only parts of one Diocesan Church infimi Ordinis we abhor such Tyrannical Schismatical Diocesans and their pretence of proper power to Ordain and the Primitive Church had never any such Ordaniers or Bishops And I advise all Ministers neither to be Re-ordained by such nor to yield to the appearance of such an evil by coming under their equivocating imposition of hands lest they take God's Name in vain and harden Papists and Church-Tyrants in their false condemnation of the Reformed Churches If it be want of a legal right in England that they pretend let the Magistrate give you a Licence or Legal right I write not this for my own interest for I was Ordained by a Diocesan and am past all hopes or fears of Man. CHAP. LX. The Reasons of these ten Articles L. YOV must give me leave to tell you what objections are like to be raised against your proposed Articles of Reconciliation And first your own party will be unsatisfied in them and so they will do no good because here is not a word against Arch-bishops Bishops Deans Arch-deacons and the rest that bear office in their Courts which yet is the thing that you your self seem most to dissent from and which the Covenant did renounce M. 1. We have so much swearing and unswearing and forswearing that I will meddle as little as I can in things that look like Perjury You know that as the last Generation was sworn against Prelacy this new Generation is sworn to it Yea in a manner the whole Land is sworn or covenanted never to endeavour any alteration of it And how much soever I am against that Oath yet I will meddle as little as I can in urging men to that which they take for Perjury And I have elsewhere told you that the Covenant renounced not all Episcopacy many of the Assembly of Divines declared their dissent from any such renunciation and had entred their protestation against it as Dr. Cornel. Burges told me had not the Explication been added which confineth the Renunciation to the English frame And that the present Non-Conformists would have thankfully received the Primitive Episcopacy they shewed by their motion 1660. 2. We offer this form on supposition that we may not have what we think best but what we can joyfully submit to for our Concord and the Churches safety 3. I have
the Ordainers investing action This is it which we mean in the Controversie which may not be done twice 2. Or it may signifie the meer words of the Ordainers and Ordained which make up the said Moral action We deny not but the same words repeated may make up one Moral Ordination If the Bishop by tautology repeat them twice or thrice Or if they should to satisfie men of divers Languages that are present be first spoken in English and after in French or when some that doubted require it should go over them again all this is but one Ordination L. How prove you that our Bishops intend any more when they say it is only to satisfie the Law that you may be capable in England M. 1. That it is not a meer relation to some particular cure that they mean is undenyable 1. Because they call that by the name of Institution and Induction and not of Ordination 2. Because they never ordain any over and over upon removals 3. Because the words of Ordination in the Book tell it us 2. That they do it not as a Repetition of the same valid Ordination is past doubt 1. Because the same repeated by the same men will not serve 2. It is to be done again ten or twenty years after the first 3. He is to be fined in an hundred pound that administreth the Sacrament without it 4. He is taken for no true Minister without it which cannot be true of a bare repetition of words No reasonable men would lay so much on that 3. It is undeniable that they take men for unordained and no Ministers till they ordain them 1. Because they all disown reordaining they know that the Canons called the Apostles and the whole antient and later Church condemn it as like Anabaptistry and no one Bishop in England will not renounce it Therefore its certain that they take the first Ordination for null 2. And they have so declared their judgment in many words and writings and in the Act of Uniformity it is plainly intimated in the penalty L. And what harm is there in being twice Ordained M. 1. Ad hominem I need not dispute it All the Bishops disclaim it as unlawfull so that we have their confession 2. It is the same fault as Anabaptistry If they be blameless why make you such a noise against the Anabaptists To be twice made a Christian and twice made a Minister is of the like kind 3. It is something causelesly to cast our selves under the Censure of all the Church that hath been against it and to be condemned by them 4. It is a plain prophanation of God's holy name and of a great and holy Ordinance by Lying and taking Godâ—s name in vain For they are said to be now admitted to the Office and this day to receive it and God is told that they are now called to it And all their Examinations and Answers imply that they were no Ministers before and the Bishop saith Receive the Holy Ghost for the Office and work of a Priest now committed to thee by the Imposition of our hands which all imply it not done before And in so sacred a contract with God to lie to him and prophanely abuse his name and the holy Ghosts and the Duty of Prayer and Praise is tremendous Be not deceived God is not mocked 5. It is a confederacy with Corrupters and Usurpers that arrogate and appropriate valid Ordination to themselves and a confirming all their injury to posterity that all that shall hereafter imitate them may be encouraged by alledging our Re ordination 6. It is a hainous injury to all the other Reformed Churches as if we degraded their Ministers and separated from them all as no Churches For one part of them have no Diocesans and the rest have Bishops that at the Reformation were Ordained by Presbyters 7. It is contrary to one of the Articles of our Religion 23. These we ought to judge them lawfully called and sent which be chosen and called to this work by men who have publick authority given to them in the Congregation to call and send Ministers c. But in other Countries Presbyters have publick authority given them And Art. 36. The book of Consecration doth contain all things necessary to such consecration and Ordaining But it hath nothing for Re-ordaining those before Ordained 8. It is a plain condemnation of the Church of England which hath professed Communion with the Reformed abroad as with true Ministers and Churches of Christ. And we are now told that to communicate with Schismaticks induceth the guilt of Schism 9. It introduceth Anabaptistry or utter confusion into the Nation leaving men in doubt whether for fourteen years the people had any true Baptism while it's a controversie whether Lay-mens Baptizing be valid and Mr. Dodwell maketh all men to be out of any Covenant-title to Salvation that have not the Sacraments from a Minister that hath successive Episcopal Ordination And all Christians must question whether they have not so long here lived out of the Church of Christ without Ministery and Communion Do you think that none of these nine Reasons prove Re-ordination sinful L. But because the Bishops deny it let me hear your proof that the former Ordination here by Presbyters is not a nullity M. I. Ad hominem the Church of England hath as I said judged the like valid in the Reformed Churches by holding Communion with them I cited a great number of Bishops and Doctors in my Christian Concord L. But they say that necessity differeth their case from ours here And even Doctour Sherlock tells you that if God make necessity necessity will make Ministers But ours Schismatically pull'd down the Bishops and now disown the very Order M. There is a satisfactory concession in these words but the accusations are made up of falsehood and deceit 1. Archbishop Vsher and others that thought the Ejectors of Episcopacy were guilty of Schism yet maintained that their Ordination was valid He told me how he pleaded it to the King. 2. Do they think that Salmasius Blundel and all others that have written more against our Prelacy than the English were deprived of it against their wills by necessity 3. What necessity can they pretend to the Hollanders Helvetians Geneva Embden Bremen the Palatinate and Scotland heretofore might they not have had Prelates when they would 4. Was not the necessity far more notorious to those that I now plead for They lived in a Land where Episcopacy was cast out and kept out by a potent Army I think there were but four or five Bishops alive when it was restored 5. It is false that they cast out the Bishops Those Ministers that joyned with the Parliament to cast them out were Ordained by Bishops and therefore are none of the men that we are speaking of These that were Ordained by Presbyters were then young men at School or in the Universities And what are other mens actions to them L. But
be not bound to approve every Law he is bound in the main to execute them in his place And if he know that the Imposers of his Oath did mean that he should in a special manner execute e. g. the Laws against Protestants he should not take that Oath contrary to their sence Our Canons make these things forementioned their principal part as you may see by putting them first with that strange penalty of Excommunication ipso facto And indeed it is no small part of the whole Book that we dissent from II. But moreover we dare not promise or swear Obedience to our Ordinaries till we know that Lay-men governing by the Keys are not those Ordinaries I have consulted Lawyers and some say that only the Bishop is meant by our Ordinary But I think they are but few that say so And indeed we are bound to believe the contrary because terms of Art or Science are to be understood according to the use of the men of that Art or Science But men of that profession commonly call other Judges of their Courts our Ordinaries besides the Bishops So doth R. Cousins in his Tables and others 2. And other Governing Ministers whom we must obey are mentioned in the Ordination Covenant also besides our Ordinaries Our Reasons against this are these 1. It is unlawful to confederate with Sacrilegious Prophaâ—ers of a great Ordinance of God in stablishing and practising that Sacrilegious Prophanation But to Covenant or Swear Obedience to Lay-men in usurping the power of the Keys of Decretive Excommunication and Absolution we fear is such and as to the Minor the reason of our fear is if it be Sacrilegious prophanation for a Lay-man to usurp the other parts of the Pastoral Office then it is so for him to usurp the power of the Keyes But the Antecedent is confest as to the Sacraments and the charge of ordinary Teaching and Guidance of the Flocks c. 2. Ad hominem If the Bishops take it for Usurpation in Presbyters to exercise this power supposing it proper to themselves they must judge it much more so in Lay-men L. The Lay-men do it by the Bishops Authority and in his Name and so he doth it by them His Name is to the Excommunications M. 1. The Chancellors have their Commissions from the King which the Bishops cannot alter 2. If it be so it is the worse 1. That the Bishops name should be abused to a Sentence when he never heard or tryed the Cause If this be against the Bishops Will it is a forgery if he consent it seems he trusteth his Conscience in the Chancellors hands and Excommunicateth all at a venture that the Chancellor Excommunicateth though he know not whom nor why which is against the Light of Nature and the common Justice of the World. 2. And it is contrary to the nature of the Pastoral Office to execute it by men of another Calling Either it is proper to Bishops or not if not Presbyters or Lay-men may use it if yea then none may be deputed to use it that are not Bishops If the Keys and not the Sacraments may be used by Lay-men then the use of the Keys is not proper to Pastors but only Sacraments But no man can give a just reason why Lay-men may not give the Sacraments as well as use the Keys Yea indeed the Sacramental administration cannot be proper to the Pastoral Office if the Keys be not For the â—se of the Keys is to Judge who shall be admitted to Sacramental communion and if only Delivering and not Iudging to whom be proper to the Pastor then he is but a carrier or cryer and Executioner of Lay-mens Judgment perhaps lower than the Deacon Barely to say over the words and do the action is but an outward Ministration and no act of Power at all L. But it is not the Chancellor but the Surrogate that Excommunicateth M. 1. Ask those that have been much among them how oft they have heard a Lay-Civilian say at once I admonish you I admonish you I admonish you I excommunicate you 2. Hypocrisie is but an aggravation of Sin The Lay-man decreeth the Excommunication which is the judicial act when they use a Surrogate Priest it is but as a hireling Servant to pronounce the Decree to mock the Church with a Formality 3. If indeed it be the Priest that Excommunicateth and Absolveth when no Bishop is there then they confess that the power of the Keys is not proper to a Bishop but may be validly used by a Priest. L. But what have you against swearing Obedience to the Bishops themselves supposing the Canons were materially Lawful M. III. We have nothing against a peaceable submission to them if they were proved all Usurpers For my part when I think how the High Priests were made out of a wrong line by Roman power and purchase c. in Christs time and how much he was for submission to them and a use of all that was good and lawful done by those bad unlawful intruders it resolveth me to regard bare Possession so far as our own edification and the common peace requireth But as Christ was a Nonconformist to the Pharisees vain Traditions so he was so far from swearing Obedience to these Usurpers that he oft plainly and vehemently reproveth them Many for the bonum publicum which is Suprema Lex and finis regiminis did live in quiet submission to the Usurpers of civil power here who yet would never have sworne obedience to them or justified their Usurpation That the frame of Diocesans as the only Bishops is unlawful tota specie I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy that I must not here repeat it as long as the Diocesan party by not answering it seem to grant it I have proved 1. That this Diocesan Species destroyeth the old Species of particular Churches turning the Parishes into no Churches but parts of a Diocesan Church while they make a Bishop essential to a Church 2. That they set up a false Species instead of it viz. A Church infimae speciei which hath many score Parishes if not many hundred in it without any under-Bishop to them 3. That it deposeth the old species of Bishops and Presbyters both which were to every Church of the lowest species a Bishop with his Presbyters ejusdem ordinis if they could be had so that many score or hundred Bishops are put down on pretense of setting up Episcopacy 4. And they set up both Bishop and Presbyters of a humane unlawful sort instead of those deposed viz. Arch-bishop infimi ordinis over a thousand or hundred Carcasses of Churches and half Presbyters that have not the power of the Keys nor are of the same Order with the Bishops 5. That they deposed Christs true Church Discipline and made it as impossible as for one School-master alone to govern all the Schools in a Diocess or one Physician many hundred Hospitals or one Mayor many Hundred Corporations without
Licensed as is aforesaid presume to appoint or hold any Meetings for Sermons c. nor attempt by Fasting and Prayer to cast out any Devil c. L. All this was done to prevent Abuses M. It fell out well that they did not forbid Christianity or reading Scripture in a known Tongue to prevent abusing it And next that they forbad not Law and the use of Reason which is most of all abused But do not you thâ—â—k that they make very unworthy Men Ministers or that they change or maim the Pastoral Office when no Minister no not the wisest may be trusted to fast and pray with his Neighbours Should a Master of a Family be forbidden this in his House the Iews forbad it not to Cornelius What jealousies have such a Clergy of one another And of Preaching Fasting and Praying What if some Neighbours have some great Temptations some great Guilt some great Danger by a Plague or the like or some great Affliction some Friends near Deathâ— or some important Business of great moment as Marriage Travel Navigation c. Must the Bishop know all their secrets that their Pastor at home must know Or is he a capable Judge for many Hundred Parishes when they must Fast or Pray Or did you ever know any go to him for such a License Are not those unworthy Ministers that be not fit to be trusted to Fast and Pray with their People while the Law is open to punish all abuses of it And are not those over-subject to Prelacy that will Swear Obedience in this any more than against Preaching the Gospel Dan. 6. 5. We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel except we find it concerning the Law of his God. Chap. XXXVI Point XXXIII Of the Excommunication of the three last Canons M. THe quality of the rest of the Canons resolve me that it is unlawful for me if commanded to publish an Excommunication against any upon the three last L. What â—e the three last M. The 139th is Whosoever shall hereafter affirm that the Sacred Synod of this Nation in the Name of Christ and by the King's Authority assembled is not the true Church of England by Representation let him be Excommunicate and not restored till he repent and publickly revoke this his wicked Error L. What fault can you find with this M. 1. No Man can tell what is the Church representative till they know which is the Church real And this they tell us not either as to Matter or Form. 1. Whether the Church real be only the Clergy or also the Laity Whether the King and Parliament Nobles Gentry and Commons be all Represented in the Convocation If yea by what Law or Power And may we say that King and Parliament do what these do What need they then after to confirm their Canons And they that hold the Church Laws bind in Conscience as such before King and Parliament confirm them will bring King and Parliament under their Obedience if not Excommunication But if they pretend not to represent the King and Laity they falsly exclude them from being part of the Church 2. They are utterly disagreed de Forma what the Church of England is either it hath an Ecclesiastical constitutive Soveraign Power or not If not it is not an Ecclesiastick Body Politick And of late their disputing Doctors plainly confess that it hath no such specifying Summa Potestas and so is formally no Political governed Church The King's Government of it by the Sword which none deny they say is but an Accident of it and not Essential to the Church And so in sum it is but a meer Community or a voluntary Confederacy of many Churches that make no unifying Politie And that is to be a Church only in a loose and not proper sence as the Assembly at Nimegen was a Kingdom 3. I doubt not but Thousands of Lâ—y-Men and many Dissenting Ministers are true Parts of the Church of England And therefore that the Convocation represented our part only of that Church 4. If they be but a Community they can make no Laws but only Contracts Laws are only the Acts and Instruments of Rulers Therefore we owe no Obedience to them as being no Commands of Rulers till the Civil Power make them Laws save as particular Pastors may make them Laws to their several Flocks 5. If they make them obligatory Church-Laws as the Acts of the Convocation then it seems the Representative Church governeth the Real and the Presbyters in Convocation exercise a Legislative Power which is the highest that Bishops can pretend to 6. These being left thus in uncertainty in the dark how comes that Man to deserve Excommunication or be wickedly erroneous that herein declareth his dissent I dare not publish such an Excommunication if commanded L. What is the 140th Canon M. Whosoever shall affirm that no manner of Person either of the Clergy or Laity not being then particularly assembled in the said sacred Synod are to be subject to tâ—e Decrees thereof in Causes Ecclesiastical made and ratifyed by the King's Majesty's Supream Authority as not having given their Voice to them Let him be Excommunicated and not restored c. Here craftily in a Parenthesis they put in the King's Authority and if they mean only his Obligation on us no one of us denieth it But because their disputing Doctors take that but as an Accident we may say that the Papists themselves are oft put to say that General Councils bind not the absent till they receive them And the French long received not the Council of Trent nor many Churches other Councils L. What is the last Canon M. The 141st for so many Church-Commandments we have God's Ten being but a little part of our Religion is Whoever shall affirm that the Sacred Synod assembled as aforesaid was a Company of such Persons as did conspire together against Godly and Religious Professors of the Gospel and that therefore both they and their Proceedings in making Canons and Constitutions in Causes Ecclesiastical by the King's Authority Let them be Excommunicated and not restored c. Here again we doubt not of the King 's obligatory Power But what the Persons and their Works were I think a Point that Christians may differ about and not deserve Excommunication It seems they could foresee what Men would judge of them and no wonder tho' they had not the Gift of Prophecy I am none of their Judge but leave God's Work to himself But I must say that this Book of Canons doth no whit increase my esteem of Council of Prelacy of Humane Canons or Clergies Laws nor of the particular Bishops and Clergy that made them And that I will neither publish such Excommunications nor promise or swear to do it Tho' I know that stretching pretences satisfie some Men like theirs that own the name of Sacred to that Synod because Sacrum quod sanctum simul execrabile signat A professed and relative Sanctity may be granted them Chap.
practise Physick in London The Posts Walls and Gates are stickt with Physicians offers to cure the Lecherous pox To day I read Kirleu's Bill that saith he hath cured eight hundred of that disease I dare bet with you all the Money I have that if you enquire not eight or perhaps two of that eight hundred were Puritans or such as you now cast out for Non-Conformists unless you call Papists or such other Non-Conformists except any of them were Wives that catcht it of Husbands that are of your Church or Parishes and not of us or Husbands that catcht it of such conformable or Papist Wives But of these things we need no defence 3. But if our hearers be bad they have the more need of teaching and whether more are converted from ignorance sensuality worldliness and prophaneness by their teaching or ours ask others and not us L. Obj. XIV But they say that it 's by you that we are in danger of Popery because you keep up their hopes of a toleration by your divisions weakning us M. They may of the two say more probably it is we that bring in Prelacy Lay Excommunicators Ceremonies Liturgies For of the two we have done less against these than against Popery and stand not at so great a distance from them The impudency of some men is the shame of depraved humane nature They know that it is for being more against Popery than they are that our ruine is so implacably endeavoured They know that the Papists are our chiefest prosecutors thinking that if they could destroy us as their greatest adversaries they should bring the Church of England to their will and that it is but appropriating the name of Popery to the Italian Faction that set the Pope above Councils and calling the rest by a better Name and cutting off a few shreds named by Heylin in the Life of Arch-bishop Laud and it 's done They know that it is for drawing so near to Popery that the Non-Conformists Dissent from them and take it for granted that those men that are labouring to bring in Popery are the forwardest to make this putid accusation of us and that it hath been their labour these two and twenty years to have forc'd us to yield to an universal toleration and to petition for it that they might bring in Popery and then say it is we that did it and that for denying this and being unreconcileable to Popery the Papists are so unreconcileable to us as that nothing will satisfy them but our utter extirpation of which they would make blind sensual debauched malignant men that call themselves Protestants the instruments And how many of their pillars have written for a foreign Jurisdiction and defend Grotius I have told you before And to this day that Priest that is nearest to Popery is the bitterest enemy to the Non-Conformists and most preacheth for their destruction And these brazen-faced men cannot endure an honest Conformist that doth but preferr Protestants that dissent from their fetters before the Papists And those Bishops and Arch-bishops and the very Church of England in their times that were most against Popery are their scorn and hatred as you may see in Heylin's reproach of Arch-Bishop Abbot and the Bishops and Convocation except six Bishops in his days And by the base scorns that they now pour out against good Arch-Bishop Grindal calling such men as would strengthen us against Popery by reconciliation by the names of Grindalizers and Trimmers and such as would betray the Church And how they reproach and use Dr. Whitby for his Protestant Reconciler and Mr. Bold for his Sermon and the Author of the four Pleas of the Conformists for the Non-Conformists and such others you know The Author of the Reflections and the Samaritan they have not yet found out Mr. Tho. Beverley feareth them not The Bishop of Hereford Dr. Crofts the first man that ever I saw go forth with a Troop raised by his Brother for the King and his Sermon in my Pulpit the first that ever I heard against the Parliament when the King was in Yorkshire and he himself had been a Papist and is still zealous for their Church cause because he wrote the Book called Naked Truth to heal us and strengthen us against Popery they gnash the Teeth at him and so they do at Dr. Barlow Bishop of Lincoln that wrote of the treasonable principles of Papists tho' these Bishops are too big for them yet to vilify and openly oppose L. You may be more against Popery than they and yet bring it in imprudently by dividing us M. Who do you think in your Conscience is liker to bring it in we or they Who hath done and suffer'd more to keep it out We lay down all that we have to that end They will not part with a Ceremony or one Oath or a Re-ordination or an Excommunication of Christs Members to keep it out but plainly tell us that they had rather Popery came in than abate a jott of their Self-made Religion or Impositions or than such as I should Preach the Gospel But I confess I am not able to deny it that the Non-Conformists may be the occasion of bringing in Popery by way of Antiperistasis some men hate us and all serious Godliness so much that they are like enough to be for Popery because godly men are against it And I fear lest they that see the Non-Conformists would reform their Prelacy and Church-Courts and reduce them to the Primitive Episcopacy described by Bishop Vsher will be so much afraid lest they lose some of their Wealth and Domination by it that some of them will hearken to the Papists that will promise them an Encrease of that which they so esteem And indeed it is already no strange thing to hear them say They had rather the Papists came in with Popery than the Dissenters with their Reformation I think ere long you are like to be convinced more effectually than by Writing which Party is liker to bring in Popery and to turn Papists In the mean time I begin to praise Stephen Gardiner and such others for their Modesty that when they burnt Cranmer Ridley Hooper Philpot Rogers and the rest that they did not charge them with bringing in Popery and say we burn you for that L. XV. They say that you stretch the Words of the Oaths Declarations Subscriptions Liturgy and Canons to an ill sence by a rigorous Interpretation which was never the Meaning of the Authors and on that you ground your Dissent M. 1. I hope you will grant that when the things that men fear whether justly or mistakingly no less than deliberate Lying Perjury and Contracting by Justification the Guilt of many hundred thousand Perjuries and Swearing or Covenanting never to repent or endeavour that the Nation should repent of heinous Church-Corruptions or amend them and the nullifying of the Ordination and Ministry of thousands and Unchurching almost all the Protestant Churches and more such like a
such being Engines of Division and Persecution what promises are necessary is further to be opened nor is Re-ordination or Re-baptizing to be forced on the truly Ordained and Baptized VI. The just Ordainers must needs be the discerning Iudges whom they shall Ordain to the Ministry as such And the Magistrate is Iudge whom he shall approve and maintain as publick Teachers and whom to tolerate as tolerable And every man is a discerning Iudge to whom he shall trust the Pastoral care of his own-Soul as he doth what Physician he shall use for his Life to which Self-love and Self-government do Authorize and Oblige him and no erring judgment of Superiors can disoblige him much less every Patrons Choice VII Truly Ordained and Called Ministers must Preach to their Flocks though they have no other Licence and are by Office Authorized to choose their Subject due Method and Word And if a Form of Liturgy in Prayers Praise Psalms be imposed by Agreement or Authority that all the Church be not left at utter uncertainty what worship they meet to offer to God till it be pass'd out of the Minister's mouth let it be agreeable to Scripture-direction in Matter Method and Words blameless orderly and without just cause of suspicion or offence and let it not be made a snare for Contention and Division by the rigorous urging of needless things nor worthy men be silenced and cast out that cannot Declare Assent and Consent to all things contained in it and prescribed by it by fallible men nor for every omission or abbreviation through scruple or necessitated hast or for not officiating in a Surplice And let the Canons 6. 7. 8. 9. and others that unjustly fetter the Ministers and Flock be Altered or Repealed VIII Let no Minister be Silenced Suspended or Ejected for not publishing Excommunications pass'd by Bishops or Lay-Men against any of his Flock best known to the present Pastor whom be judgeth not guilty or for scrupleing a Ceremony especially upon such Canons as the 6. 7. 8. c. that Excommunicate ipso facto every man not excepting Parliament-ment Lords Iudges or Iustices Parents or Wives or Children that do but affirm That any thing is unlawful or repugnant to the word of God in the Liturgy or Ceremonies or Ordination or in the Government of the Church by Arch-Bishops Bishops Arch-Deacons and the Rest that bear Office therein seeing Wise and Godly Ministers judge such things too light to deserve an Excommunication and dare not so dishonour those Superiors whom God hath commanded us to honour yea and think all Excommunicating ipso facto sine sententia Judicis to be sinful and contrary to the use of Excommunication which supposeth Impenitence And let no Minister or People be forced to publish or execute any Excommunication Arbitrarily Decreed or against their Consciences And let none be forbidden to Preach the Gospel who do not more hurt than good while Iustice may be done by other Penalties IX As Christianity Baptism and Sacramental Communion are gifts from God of unspeabahle value so none at age but willing Consenters to the Covenant of God can have any right to them Therefore no unwilling person should be forced to Baptism or the Lord's Supper and so to profane Gods holy Ordinance and corrupt the Church But in each Parish the meer Auditors or Catechized must be distinguished from the Communicants as meer Catechising and Teaching is from Pastoral Oversight and Church-Conduct X. The Kingdom consisteth of Ministers and People Approvable Tolerable and Intolerable though the publick Temples and Maintenance be at the Dispose of the Sovereign Power and Magistrates yet are not all Laymen that can but Buy or Inherit a Patronage Advowson or Presentation either Authorized by God or Qualifyed with sufficient Wisdom and Piety to choose such as Pastors to whom though Ordained by a Bishop all men are bound to commit the Pastoral care and conduct of their Souls as is aforesaid Therefore to this Relation the Peoples Choice or Consent is necessary And because Parish Churches are by fixed Neighbourhood the most convenient Order the Rulers should either make those the Publick Teachers whom the People can take for their Pastors or the People after take those for their Pastors who are truly Capable whom the Rulers first choose for the Publick Teachers But in case they cannot so agree each man must be Tolerated to choose and join with some other Parochial or more private Minister for his Pastor so be it 1. They fess the essentials of Christianity and Church Communion 2. And live peaceably and loyally in their Preaching and Practice 3. And pay the publick Teachers and Magistrates their dues renouncing Heresie and Popery and all Foreign Iurisdiction and Treason The TEST or Profession of the Maintain'd Ministers supposing the amendments of Discipline I Do sincerly as before God Profess that I believe the Canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be the True word of God and supposing the Light and Law of Nature the Divine sufficient Rule of Faith and Holy Living according to which we shall be Iudged which no humane Laws or Power can Abrogate or Suspend being all but subordinate thereto And I will Preach nothing as necessary to Salvation which cannot be proved or warranted thereby And more particularly I believe all the Articles of the Creed called the Apostles as a summary of our Faith and Consent to the Lord's Prayer as the summary of our Desires and to the Decalogue as expounded by Christ as the summary of our obedient practice and I resolvedly Consent to the Gospel-Covenant with God the Father Son and Holy Ghost which these summaries explain and which is celebrated in Baptism and the Lord's Supper And I do own and honour the Church of England that is This Christian Reformed Kingdom containing the Approved Pastors and their Flocks both the Publickly Maintained and the Duly Licensed and United under one Christian Reformed Sovereign and Renouncing all Foreign Jurisdiction And I do honour with thankfulness to God the Reformation and Concord of this Church in Doctrine Worship and Discipline and will labour to preserve its Unity and Peace renouncing all Treasons Seditions Popery Foreign Iurisdiction Heresy Schism and Profaneness And I do promise to Exercise my Ministry with diligence for the edification of the Church and the saving of mens Souls The Ministers being of three sorts 1. The Maintained or Promoted 2. The Licensed to Preach as Candidates or Lecturers without the publick maintenance or Helpers to Incumbents who desire them or occasionally such as sound Protestants continuing Non-conformists should be 3. The Tolerated that have only a Grant of Protection and Peace without either Mainterance or Approving Licence I leave it to Superiours how much of the aforesaid Profession shall be required of the two latter This would much reduce the Kingdom to a Holy and Happy Unity and Peace which yet containeth nothing that Protestants have any just cause to reject And we are not
A thousand will be unnamed when you have done your best at it But the Rule must not name every Errour against it The contrariety will be discernable It is enough that men profess a perfect Rule and renounce all contrary and be responsible to the Church and their Rulers when they corrupt Religion contrary to the Rule and their own Profession An Errour not manifested hurts not others and none is punishable till proved If Heresy be kept secret the Church must not make new Laws and Tests to make men confess it but punish it when it is vented L. But shall Ministers make no profession but what a Papist or a Heretick will make M. No if a Papist or Heretick will profess all that is necessary else we must make more Must we make new Creeds or new Scriptures as oft as dissemblers will falsely profess that already made This was the temptation to those multitudes of Creeds by which Councils distracted the Churches which Hilary decryeth L. But the Bishops will never take down the Oath of Canonical Obedience and all the other Oaths and Subscriptions that are formed to their Interest M. I cannot help that Over-doing is un-doing If ever Episcopacy be cast out it will be by such over-doing which will not let men live in Peace that would not molest them L. 6. Why do you seem to grant the Bishops and Patrons votes in the choice of Pastors when before you seem to have much against them M. I have nothing against the Ordainers judging of the fitness of the Ordained nor of Magistrate or Patrons disposal of Temples and Tithes And because nothing but necessity will weigh down the great inconvenience of maintaining distinct Pastors while â— setled Lecturer hath the Temple and Tithes therefore I suppose that the Bishop and Patron will have their Votes And I suppose you know that it is vain to motion to Patrons to resign this power were it worse than it is else Advowsons would not be sold at such rates as they are by many Patrons And my silence where speaking will do no good is no sign of my approbation L. But do you think that the Communicants shall have a negative Vote in choosing Pastors M. I think they will not till God raise up better men than many Patrons are But I am past doubt that God's Law of Nature and Scripture and the whole consent of ancient Churches Fathers and Councils are for it And methinks were not carnal Interest stronger with them than Religion men that are professedly for God's Law and Church-Canons and Customs should not obstinately oppose them all Yea the highest Episcopal Men are in this against them Mr. Thorndike saith that till the Clergy and People again choose their own Bishops there needs no other reason be given of the contempt of Episcopacy Yea I have proved past denial oft that no Non-consenter can be a member of any Pastoral Church nor any man be a mans Pastor that doth not consent It 's reason then to speak for the Flocks Consenting Vote L. But they may be forced to consent M. I shall give you a reason against that anon L. Do you think the ignorant vulgar are fit to choose themselves a Pastor The most are usually the worst M. If the Church-men will make the uncapable rabble Communicants and then deny them Church-privileges because they are uncapable they condemn themselves for taking yea forcing in such uncapable men Even as the Bishops that Ordain Ministers that cannot Preach and then by their Canon forbid them to Preach 2. And yet I will say That never knew any places in City or Country that have oft had better Pastors for Learning and all Worth than where the Communicants were the choosers Yea even the ignorant usually have a gust that discerneth and valueth good and able men 3. And yet I speak not so high as for their Power of first Choice but only of Consent nor yet to choose who shall be a Minister but who shall be their Pastor The Bishop asketh not their consent at Ordination L. But you know that if there must three Consents go to it The Ordainers the Patrons and the Communicants they may never agree and frustrate all M. Humane faultiness puts inconveniences into all actions But we must not cure it with a worse If you would take no Physick till three Physicians agree it 's a less mischief than to give any man that can buy that Power a right to impose what ignorant fellow or enemy he will to be your sole Physician Three Locks and Keys in three hands to so great a Trust may be better than one in an untrusty hand Shall every Papist or Atheist choose me a Physician as fitter than I 2. But if they should never agree it is but every one stopping at his own part The Ordainers have done their part and the Patron hath chosen a Teacher for Auditors and a Pastor for such as will accept him and the People that trust him not may go to one that they can trust and this is better than worse L. But the Patron will prevail against them as long as he must nominate though the Bishop and People had a Negative Vote for if they refuse one he will still name another of his own complexion M. Uncurable evils I cannot help I can but wish that no Patron had ever built Churches or given Glebes at so dear a rate as thereby to buy from the Church its Privileges L. But can you think that the Bishops will ever abate Re-ordination of thsoe ordained by Presbyters M. I think not and therefore I have no hope of concord by their Concession But I know that former Bishops would have done it and the Church of England still owned such since the Reformation and God may send England such again and for such an age I write and not for this with any great hope And if you would not have the Land confounded with doubts whether they be Baptized or whether they had any valid Sacraments and whether the Papists or Protestants be the true Church c. it concerns you all to regard the decision of this Case L. But you speak only against Re-Ordaining those that are already Ordained and nothing for the time to come M. 1. You know it is hopeless to move for that 2. And it 's meet that Ordination should be well regulated 3. And when all the unjust impositions are removed as is here desired few moderate men will scruple Ordination L. VII Your 7th hath so much reason that I can say nothing against it but that I doubt the Bishops will never abateâ— their Ceremonies or any part of their Liturgy so far to endure any to disuse it though they meddle not against it M. I know what 's necessary and just but I know not what men will grant I am of your mind of those in possession except some few But if any man will make and keep up any instruments of division and hurt on
they ought to be restrained and there are lower punishments than depriving them of their Toleration which are for lower faults 2. But if Rulers will oppress we cannot help that and must not therefore be ungoverned CHAP. LXI Whether the Extirpation of the Non-Conformists be not rather to be attempted than an Vnion with them by these means L. IT 's long since our former Conference and now there is discovered a Treasonable Plot against the King and his Brother and a multitude of Addresses tell us that it was the Plot of the Dissenters and the Product of Conventicles and therefore â—â—ave the extripation of them all and that they may no more be trusted as having Principles were concileable to Monarchy and Subjection and the loudest cry now runs that way M. What is the Treasonable Plot L. To Kill the King and Duke and raise an Army and to Change the Government or Governours at least M. Who do they mean by Dissenters or Conventiclers L. All that Conform not to the Church of England as it is now setled by the Law. M. The Law setleth the Essentials Integrals and Accidents of the Church Do you mean every one that disliketh any one Office as Lay-Chancellors use of the Keys or any Ceremony or Form If so I do doubt most that come to Church and Communicate with it dissent from some such Circumstances L. Well suppose it be those that separate from it M. There are now these following sorts of known Dissenters called by many Conventiclers I. Those that like the way of Episcopacy and Liturgy best as here setled but yet will also occasionally join with other Churches as the French Dutch Lutheran or some Non-Conformists II. The Pacifick Non-conformists who at the King's Return Petitioned for Arch-Bishop Vsher's Model of the Primitive Episcopal Government and thankfully accepted the King's Declaration III. The Presbyterians who are for Government only by Synods of equal Presbyters Teaching joined with meer Ruling ones IV. The Independants and Separatists V. The Anabaptists who are half Arminians and half not VI. The Fifth-Monarchy Party most of which are Anabaptists also VII The Quakers VIII The Papists IX The Infidels Iews Hobbists and Atheists Is the meaning that all these are the guilty Rebels to be destroyed or which of them is it L. If all I doubt the King would lose no small part of his Subjects But you know the Papists are not numbred with the Dissenters or Conventiclers M. Say you so Do those that differ but about a Ceremony or Lay-mans use of the Keys or the largeness and paucity of Bishops Churches dissent more from you than the Papists that would bring King and Kingdom under a foreign Jurisdiction and introduce all the Mass and doctrinal corruptions of their Church Read Bishop Downham's Catalogue of Popish Errours de Anti-Christo or Dr. Willet's Chamier's Iewell 's or any such and judge And do you think that the Mass is no Conventicle or more lawful than the forbidden assemblies of Protestants L. Well But it 's Protestant-Dissenters that I mean. M. So then You would have Protestant-Dissenters rooted out and not Papists or Infidels L. We would have those rooted out that were in the Plot which the Papists were not M. No doubt but such a Plot as you describe deserveth the extirpation of those that were guilty of it But I pray you compare not the innocency of Papists in their Principles with the Protestants Or read Bishop Barlow's and Hen. Fowlis's Books and Prin's History of Bishops Treasons and judge as you see cause But it 's none of my business now to accuse the Papists Do but grant that the innocent should not suffer for the crimes of the guilty and we are agreed L. But is it not justly supposed that the whole Party is guilty of those Principles which have caused particular mens rebellions and that it is their Preachers and Conventiclers that have caused all M. You that are a Lawyer should know somewhat of the Rules of Iustice or Humanity at least Come on and let you and I consider soberly of the case And first to your face I challenge you to name and prove any the least difference between the Non-conformists who sought for Concord at the King's Restoration or the party of meer Non-Conformists and the Protestants of the Church of England in their Principles about the Power of Princes and the Subjection and Patience of the People Name any difference if you can L. You would make one believe that great Numbers are inhumanely impudent that charge them with such heinous difference if there be none M. Why do you not name the difference if there be any Contrarily 1. We all take the same Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy 2. We Subscribe all the same Articles of Religion about the Power of Magistrates 3. We have often professed our consent to all that is written for Magistracy and Subjection in all the Scripture in any General Council save what is for the Papal Tyranny over Princes and People or in any Confession of any Christian Church Greek Papist or Protestant that ever we saw and for all that for the Power of Kings but not all against it which the generality of Fathers Historians Philosophers Politick-writers Lawyers Canonists or Divines are for And is not all this yet enough 4. I have oft told you where e.g. Bishop Andrews in Tortura Torti Sir Fran. Bacon Lord St. Albans and many others have vindicated the principles of the English Non-conformists as the same with the Church's in point of Loyalty against the Papists accusations L. But do not you know who wrote the Political Aphorisms or Holy Common-wealth condemned lately by the Oxford Convocation M. And do not you know 1. That the Author had never leave to confute his accusers about it 2. Do you not know that he hath divers years ago written a large Book called his Second Plea for Peace fully opening the Principles which he and his Consenters hold and no man hath writteâ— one word against any of them that I hear of to this day Is this fair dealing then to silence what at large he owneth and name only a writing 29 years ago which he never was heard about 3. Do you not know that the Famously Learned Tho. White a Papist wrote at the same time the like Doctrine and will you charge that on the Party of Papistâ— 4. The Historians Rule is Distingue de temporibus Do you know in what times that was written And know you not that few men then living wrote and spake more plainly against the Usurpation than he did 5. And you see that the Oxford Convocation condemn the writings and principles of the Doctors of the Church of England as well as others And as for Knox and Buchanan we are no more guilty of their words than of Iewell 's Bilson's Hooker's Laud's or any such L. But if you differ not from the Church of England in Principles of Loyalty why do you not take the
will he give for his Life And can you think that Prince or Kingdom is in safety that shall destinate to destruction so great a number and of such quality as are all the Papists Infidels Iews Anabaptists Separatists Independants Presbyterians and Episcopal Non-conformists as are in England Though I think the latter sort would suffer death rather than be disloyal I am sure Rulers and Adversaries think not so who accuse them of intolerable disloyalty And they that think so ill of them will expect ill at their hands It 's true that the worse men are and their principles the more need there is of suppressing them But destroying them is the chief means that I know to increase their principles of resistance It 's ordinary with men that never suffered to detest resisting Governours and to change their opinions when they think they are implacably hâ—mted to destruction without desert or any remedy Draw your Sword upon them even on a Quaker and it 's two to one you will change his judgment and make him think that self-defence is lawful Yea if you could kill all that think resistance lawful if it be half the Kingdom it 's the likliest way to make all the rest that survive of the same mind because of the inhumanity of the Execution I have met with few that thought that resistance at the French Massacre on Bartholomew-day or at the greater in Ireland had been unlawful whoever commanded them Yea the Lord Bacon Chancellour of England in his Discourses of a Holy War against the Turks and of a War with Spain thought that their barbarous Cruelties though the Turks give Liberty of Conscience allow other Princes to War upon them to vindicate mankind the World being one Kingdom of God in which every man oweth charity and due help to others which is honoured in Tamerlane when he relieved the Greek Emperour of another Religion against Bajazet that was of his own and this in meer Humanity and Charity I meddle not with the case of the lawfulness of such actions But I say All the World cannot devise a more effectual way to make all men think that Self-defence is Lawful than by great cruelty against multitudes to make it seem necessary And if you will cure it by forced Oaths I heartily wish the King better security for his Life and the Kingdom for its Peace than mens conscientious keeping of those Oaths will be unless conscience and patience were more universal and powerful than they are and would make all sorts of Dissenters choose Martyrdom rather than defensive resistance And as for Queen Elizabeth's Case her Dangers were many her Advantages were great her Executions for Religion were so few that the Lord Bacon and many other say none suffered for any thing but Treasons or such crimes And God did wonderfully preserve her But to say no more of the Papists whose case quite differs from all the rest if you will make many Laws about doubtful words and forms and ceremonies and then extirpate all sober godly peaceable Subjects that for fear of sinning against God dare not obey them what do you but mince and pulverize the Nation and dissolve its consisting and strength and make it a Cock-pit or a Prey to the cloven-footed deceiver and divider The Non-conformists in England lived quietly till the Canons were made for their prosecution The great Counsellours of State Sir Nic. Bacon Throgmorton Sir Amias Paulet the Earl of Leicester Sir Francis Knowles Sir Francis Walsingham Secretary Beale c. except Hatton and Whitgift were for lenity yea for such abatements as might have caused Unity And Sir William Cecil Lord Burleigh though for Episcopacy almost fell out with Arch bishop Whitgift for his hard usage of the Non-conformists And were all these fools and you only the wise men But when Bancroft lest they should increase would ruine them and the Canons were made which ipso facto Excommunicated all People in the Land high or low that did but affirm that any thing in their Liturgy Articles Ceremonies Ordination or Church offices from the Arch-bishop to the Apparitor was repugnant to the Word of God the Church and Kingdom presently felt that solutionem continui which these tearing racks had made And when all must be ejected and silenced that durst not subscribe that There is nothing in the Liturgy contrary to the Word of God which I would not say of the Bible it self as in any one translation then our over-zealous Uniters tore all to pieces and the shreds could never to this day be well set together to make one piece Yea all the Parliaments of England have still been striving to restore the Concord of Protestants by laying bye some of these dividing tearing Engines But Whitgift though too great an Anti-Arminian and Hatton c. prevailed still with the Queen to prohibit them and they were loth to displease her having had so great a deliverance from Popery and Persecution by her Reign The Lord Verulam Bacon tells us of a Reforming Act in which himself had a hand prepared in the Parliament but prohibited by the Queen And if any Kings who should no more divide from their Kingdom Real or Representative than the Husband from the Wife that I say not Than the Head from the Body should so far misunderstand their own and Peoples interest as to be jealous of Parliaments as their enemies and if wise Kings desire to keep the Nobility from being as Henry 4th Richard Nevill and others have been too strong for their Sovereigns they cannot more cross their own ends and serve the ambitious designs of these men than by afflicting a great a sober and a religious part of the Kingdom whom these seditious men will be still serving themselves upon by pretending to head them for their deliverance as many factious Nobles did in France It 's a great encouragement to rebellious great ones when they have always hope that a great body of distressed men will be ready as necessitated for self-defence to accept of their offers for insurrections or at least to strengthen faction L. It is for all these very reasons that we would destroy or extirpate all Dissenters that they may not be the serviceable instruments in such designs M. For all these reasons you should unite on the terms that Christ and his Apostles instituted as sufficient for Christian Love Communion and Concord that there may be no distressed exasperated Dissenters among us or only so few and culpable by the grossness of their errours as that their shame and paucity may reader them no way dangerous You should not take such men of extraordinary wisdom as Queen Elizabeth 's Councellours and Parliaments the Lord Bacon Judge Hale and such pacificators as Davenant Hall Chillingworth Abbot Grindal Amycald and most of the French Dutch German Protestants to be all fools and you to be wise Men. A Council in Bedlam could scarce advise a madder way to root out faction than to make Canons or
and Parish-Churches differ Some Parishes have orgâ—ns Altars Rails c. and some none Some Worship in Tabernacles and some in unconsecrated Places as some Chappels the Spittle the Prison Sturbridge-Fair c. And almost all the Christian Sects on Earth before-named differ in far greater matters than our difference from the Liturgy is And even in the time when the Christian Emperours and Prelates were of greatest Power and Zeal for Concord they never appointed one Liturgy for all the Churches in the Empire Nor did any Bishops in Councilor out so magnify themselves as to write down for all other Bishops and Priests the words which they must speak to God in all their Prayers as if none that are fit for the Sacred Office knew what to say to God but they or they only had the Spirit of prayer Q. 23. Are there not some sorts of Government antecedent in order of nature to publick Government and such as no Prince or Prelate can abrogate viz. 1. Self-Government 2. The Husbands-Government of the VVife 3. And the Parents-Government of his Children in order to personal and family wellfare If Princes or Patrons on what pretence soever would take on them to choose for all men what Food they shall eat what Physick they shall take and when what Trade they shall choose what VVives or Husbands they shall have as to individuals and what Food Raiment Physick or Calling they shall give their Children c. No Prince can deprive men of Self-governing maternal or paternal Power And is this power more concerned in any thing than in the saving of our Souls Hath God laid our Salvation on Princes and Patrons choice or on our own If we miscarry by their choice will they be damned for us and not we Is it not our own Salvation that lieth on our actions And if another say you are unfit to judge what Food to eat what Physick to take what Wife to choose and so what Pastor to choose for the conduct of your Souls will any man not distracted therefore make a Prince or Patron the absolute chooser and trustee for his Soul Or doth it follow that I need not or may not choose a skillfuller Pastor than many thousand Parishes in England have because the Patron is by Law enabled to choose the Parish-Priest Let him choose who shall have his Tithes and Temple but he shall not make me trust an unfit man with the pastoral care of my Soul. Q. 24. If a Wife or Son say My Husband or my Father commandeth me to take this man and not that for my Pastor And you say The Prince or Patron chooseth you another and will imprison you if you submit not to his choice which do you think the Law of Nature and the fifth Commandment will justify Hath God made the King of France Spain Portugal c. the chooser of a Pastor for all their Subjects And consequently the chooser whether they shall be saved or damned according to God's ordinary course of VVorking by the aptitude of means If this power extend not to Infidels Heathens Papists Hereticks c. how shall the Subjects know to whom it extendeth Must all Subjects be made Judges whether Princes and Patrons are Orthodox and fit to choose Is not this more arrogancy than to judge who is fit to be my Pastor or Physician Is it not sufficient that the Prince and Patrons so provide for Teachers and Physicians that none may want nor neglect instruction in the essentials of Religion but as many as need and are able may use better than the unskilful at their own charges Q. 25. VVhereas some pretend that we ought to be silenced for preaching without the Bishops Licence is that the true cause when such are silenced and excommunicated that have Licences Mr. Tho. Gouge was excommunicated for preaching even in Wales where he laboured in such eminent works of charity notwithstanding his University Licence not-forfeited For though he conformed not he never refused Conformity and so fell not under the Canon which maketh void the Licences of Refusers And I that have the Bishop of London's Sheldon's Licence am hindered with the first The same I say of Episcopal Ordination which was no protection to him or me or many others Q. 26. As to the common cry that we are justly silenced for our being for the Parliament in the late VVars 1. Is that the meaning of the Act of Obâ—ivion Are they friends to King or Kingdom that will not suffer our sores to heal but when all are returned to the Love of Peace still fill mens ears with the noise and fears of VVar 2. Did the King so judge of General Monk and his Army who restored him who yet were hotly fighting in Scotland against the King while we were preaching against the Usurpers 3. Do not our long requests yet silence these incendiaries while we offer and crave but that those may have leave to Preach Christ's Gospel and VVorship God who never had to do with any VVar against the King and that they silence only all the rest which we suppose are a number not very considerable Q. 27. As to any other charge is it not that which we crave our selves that if any Non-conformists be proved guilty of drunkenness fornication lying perjury oppression or other immorality or Rebellion or Sedition they may be punished as the crime deserveth Q. 27. Do you believe that the great Parish Ministers need no help Can any man think so who believeth the worth of a Soul and understandeth but one half a Pastors work and why it was that the Primitive Church had so many Presbyters and Deacons with a Bishop to Churches of smaller number by far than our great Parishes And do not all Ministers of sense and forbriety confess their need of many to help them and say that it is the want of Maintenance that hindereth it and if that be it why may not we be endured to help them for nothing while we Preach the same Gospel and submit to beg our Bread Doth helping them freely deserve our destruction Q. 28. Whom did Christ or any of his Apostles ever Silence who Preached only sound Doctrine for any difference about Circumstantials of mans invention Or where did they ever command or authorize any others so to do When some would have Christ restrain some from useing his name who followed him not he rebuked the motion saying he that is not against us is for us When some preached not sincerely but enviously and contentiously to add affliction to his bonds St. Paul was glad yet that Christ was Preached and professed that he did and would rejoice therein Phil. 1. 18. Q. 29. Do you think that any would Silence Imprison or Prosecute Religious Christians for things which they themselves call Indifferent and others think to be great sin if they loved their neighbours as themselves and did by others as they would have others do by them Q. 30. Is not the Office of the