the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to
a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church I confidently believe that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority Prot. This I willingly acknowledg §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age when these two great Churches were united for example in the days of St. Gregory the Great Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics acknowledged for such by Protestants Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines as his Dialogues c. have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church Whence will follow that what he hath taught us in his Writings touching Points of Religion and which you most mislike was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants he is constantly and directly against Protestants This is so manifest that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory and St. Augustine the Monk sent by him to convert England name these Freewill Merit and Iustification of Works Pennance Satisfaction Purgatory Celibacy of Priests publick Invocation of Saints and Worshipping of them Veneration of Images Exorcisms Pardons Vows Monachism Transubstantiation Prayer for the Dead Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches Celebration of Mass Consecrations of Churches Altars Chalices Corporals and Fonts of Baptism Veneration of Relicks Sprinkling of Holy-Water Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days Pilgrimages and in a word the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition as they are pleased to stile it So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory that He was the overthrower of true Religion and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines and another saith of him That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist which Antichrist you must take for granted was St. Gregory and therefore after his death went undoubtedly to Hell there to receive his reward Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught were then professed as Catholic Doctrines but gall and malice against the Church suggested such foul unseemly words to their Pens Notwithstanding Protestant Writers when not being engaged in controversie they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself they are not sparing in their Elogies of him such as these He was a holy and a learned Bishop He was by Name and indeed truly Great adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace and as he is often styled the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety he retired into a Monastery where shewing a particular sanctity of life and being wholly intent upon Prayer he drew the eyes of all men upon him He did so discharge the Pontifical Office that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles c. Now me thinks Sir the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches under the Government of such a Prelate so versed as he was in holy Scripture witness his Sermons and Commentaries should be so prevalent with you as to make you suspect your own Reason if it suggests to you that the Religion professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous § 33. Prot. But why do you say that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop which he calls an Antichristian Title Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion in which he conceived it might be understood as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the Eastern Church For thence it would follow that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes acting by his commission and removeable by him at pleasure Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character immediately from Christ alone Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch and abhorred to accept himself as plainly appears by his Epistles But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus to oblige all Prelates even Patriarchs to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils and the observance of the Churches Laws and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them this St. Gregory challenged and to this the Prelates both of the Western and Eastern Churches also submitted as appears by many Epistles sent by him and Answers received from several Patriarchs and other Prelates in the East §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction and which is now condemned by Protestants it will evidently follow that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators and consequently that the Roman Church that is all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor still remains the Catholic Church and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in and before St. Gregories days enjoyed So that all Christians who break from her Communion do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks and Self-condemned §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age and on the other side Almighty God as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry