Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	officer_n	ordain_v	ordination_n	3,414	5	11.2484	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A52063	A vindication of the answer to the humble remonstrance from the unjust imputation of frivolousnesse and falshood Wherein, the cause of liturgy and episcopacy is further debated. By the same Smectymnuus.	Smectymnuus.; Marshall, Stephen, 1594?-1655. aut; Calamy, Edmund, 1600-1666. aut; Young, Thomas, 1587-1655. aut; Newcomen, Matthew, 1610?-1669. aut; Spurstowe, William, 1605?-1666. aut	1654 (1654)	Wing M799; ESTC R217369	134,306	232

lest_o you_o shall_v think_v we_o flout_v your_o modesty_n with_o a_o unbeseeming_a frump_n which_o whither_o our_o answer_n be_v guilty_a of_o as_o you_o here_o charge_v we_o let_v the_o reader_n compare_v the_o 28_o and_o 29_o page_n of_o your_o remonstrance_n and_o our_o answer_n to_o those_o page_n and_o determine_v the_o second_o objection_n be_v from_o that_o imputation_n which_o this_o truth_n cast_v upon_o all_o reform_a church_n which_o want_v this_o government_n this_o the_o remonstrant_a must_v needs_o endeavour_v to_o satisfy_v that_o he_o may_v decline_v the_o envy_n that_o attend_v this_o opinion_n but_o what_o need_v the_o remonstrant_a fear_n this_o envy_n alas_o the_o reform_a church_n be_v but_o a_o poor_a handful_n rumpantur_fw-la ilia_fw-la need_v the_o remonstrant_a care_n yet_o be_v it_o neither_o his_o large_a protestation_n of_o his_o honourable_a esteem_n of_o those_o sister_n church_n nor_o his_o solicitous_a clear_n himself_o from_o the_o scandalous_a 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declare_v whether_o you_o count_v episcopacy_n essential_a to_o a_o church_n constitutive_a or_o consecutiué_fw-fr if_o constitutiuè_fw-la than_o it_o be_v necessary_a to_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n and_o it_o must_v follow_v where_o there_o be_v no_o bishop_n there_o can_v be_v no_o church_n if_o essential_a only_a consecutiuè_n we_o will_v be_v glad_a to_o learn_v how_o those_o officer_n which_o by_o divine_a institution_n have_v demandate_v to_o they_o peculiar_o a_o power_n of_o ordain_v all_o other_o officer_n in_o the_o church_n without_o which_o the_o church_n itself_o can_v be_v constitute_v and_o such_o a_o power_n as_o that_o those_o officer_n can_v be_v ordain_v without_o their_o hand_n shall_v not_o be_v essential_a to_o the_o constitution_n of_o a_o church_n or_o tend_v only_o to_o the_o well_o be_v not_o to_o the_o be_v of_o it_o either_o you_o must_v disclaim_v your_o own_o proposition_n or_o own_o this_o inference_n and_o not_o think_v to_o put_v it_o off_o with_o tell_v your_o reader_n it_o be_v enough_o for_o our_o friend_n to_o hold_v discipline_n of_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n 133._o you_o dare_v not_o be_v so_o zealous_a if_o heat_n in_o a_o episcopal_a cause_n may_v be_v call_v zeal_n you_o dare_v be_v as_o zealous_a as_o any_o man_n we_o know_v your_o friend_n we_o be_v sure_o be_v as_o zealous_a in_o the_o cause_n of_o their_o episcopacy_n as_o any_o of_o we_o have_v be_v in_o the_o defence_n of_o discipline_n do_v ever_o any_o of_o our_o friend_n in_o their_o zeal_n rise_v high_a than_o to_o frame_v a_o oath_n whereby_o to_o bind_v all_o man_n to_o maintain_v their_o discipline_n you_o know_v some_o of_o you_o have_v do_v as_o much_o but_o they_o we_o know_v you_o will_v leave_v to_o their_o own_o defence_n as_o you_o do_v your_o learned_a bishop_n of_o norwich_n 134._o now_o he_o be_v dead_a it_o be_v work_n enough_o for_o you_o to_o defend_v yourself_o and_o give_v satisfaction_n to_o the_o question_n propound_v first_o we_o demand_v the_o reason_n why_o popish_a priest_n convert_v to_o our_o religion_n be_v admit_v without_o new_a ordination_n when_o some_o of_o our_o brethren_n fly_v in_o queen_n mary_n time_n and_o have_v receive_v ordination_n in_o the_o reform_a church_n be_v urge_v at_o their_o return_n to_o receive_v it_o again_o from_o our_o bishop_n this_o shameless_a and_o partial_a practice_n of_o our_o prelate_n he_o can_v not_o deny_v but_o frame_v two_o such_o answer_n of_o which_o the_o second_o confute_v the_o first_o and_o neither_o second_o nor_o first_o justify_v their_o practice_n in_o the_o first_o he_o deny_v a_o capability_n of_o admittance_n by_o our_o law_n and_o yet_o in_o his_o second_o he_o confess_v many_o to_o be_v admit_v without_o any_o legal_a exception_n which_o how_o well_o they_o consist_v let_v the_o reader_n judge_n the_o second_o question_n be_v whether_o that_o office_n which_o by_o divine_a right_n have_v sole_a power_n of_o ordination_n and_o rule_v of_o all_o other_o officer_n in_o the_o church_n belong_v not_o to_o the_o be_v but_o only_o to_o the_o glory_n and_o perfection_n of_o a_o church_n the_o remonstrant_a be_v so_o angry_a at_o this_o question_n that_o before_o he_o can_v find_v leisure_n to_o answer_v it_o he_o must_v needs_o give_v a_o little_a vent_n to_o his_o choler_n can_v we_o tell_v what_o these_o man_n will_v have_v say_v he_o have_v they_o a_o mind_n to_o go_v beyond_o we_o in_o assert_v that_o necessity_n and_o essential_a use_n of_o episcopacy_n which_o we_o dare_v not_o avow_v what_o be_v that_o which_o you_o dare_v not_o avow_v be_v it_o that_o episcopacy_n have_v sole_a power_n of_o ordain_v and_o rule_v all_o other_o officer_n in_o the_o church_n but_o this_o we_o be_v sure_a you_o will_v avow_v that_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n and_o confirmation_n have_v ever_o be_v hold_v so_o intrinsical_v to_o episcopacy_n that_o i_o will_v fain_o see_v where_o it_o can_v be_v show_v that_o any_o extremity_n of_o necessity_n be_v by_o the_o catholic_a church_n of_o christ_n ever_o yet_o acknowledge_v for_o a_o warrant_v sufficient_a to_o diffuse_v they_o into_o other_o hand_n 91._o be_v not_o this_o to_o say_v that_o the_o sole_a power_n of_o ordain_v officer_n be_v in_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o bishop_n and_o dare_v not_o we_o avow_v this_o now_o bless_a be_v they_o that_o have_v take_v down_o your_o confidence_n and_o where_o you_o be_v witty_a by_o the_o way_n 135._o you_o tell_v we_o we_o still_o talk_v of_o sole_a ordination_n and_o sole_a jurisdiction_n we_o may_v if_o we_o please_v keep_v that_o pair_n of_o sole_n for_o our_o next_o shoe_n good_a sir_n we_o thank_v you_o for_o your_o liberality_n but_o we_o doubt_v you_o either_o part_n with_o they_o out_o of_o fear_n you_o shall_v no_o long_o keep_v they_o or_o they_o will_v prove_v no_o long_o worth_n the_o keep_n but_o consider_v one_o thing_n we_o beseech_v you_o if_o you_o make_v this_o donation_n not_o only_o in_o your_o own_o name_n but_o in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o whole_a episcopal_a order_n you_o and_o they_o may_v turn_v fratres_n mendicantes_fw-la and_o go_v bare_a foot_n if_o you_o part_v with_o these_o pair_n of_o sole_n and_o what_o will_v become_v of_o your_o quid_fw-la facit_fw-la episcopus_fw-la quod_fw-la non_fw-la facit_fw-la presbyter_n exceptâ_fw-la ordinatione_fw-la you_o do_v not_o contend_v say_v you_o for_o such_o a_o height_n of_o propriety_n etc._n etc._n that_o in_o what_o case_n soever_o of_o extremity_n and_o irresistible_a necessity_n this_o shall_v be_v do_v only_o by_o episcopal_a hand_n you_o do_v not_o it_o be_v well_o you_o do_v not_o but_o do_v you_o never_o mean_v to_o affirm_v it_o none_o of_o you_o consider_v we_o beseech_v that_o forecited_a place_n episcopacy_n divine_a right_n part_n 2._o pag._n 91._o weigh_v the_o word_n and_o then_o speak_v and_o tell_v the_o author_n your_o judgement_n our_o three_o question_n be_v there_o be_v in_o this_o man_n thought_n the_o same_o jus_o divinum_fw-la for_o bishop_n that_o there_o be_v for_o pastor_n and_o elder_n whether_o if_o those_o reform_a church_n want_v pastor_n &_o elder_n too_o they_o shall_v want_v nothing_o of_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n but_o only_o of_o the_o glory_n and_o perfection_n of_o it_o the_o answer_n say_v he_o be_v ready_a which_o be_v indeed_o no_o answer_n it_o be_v in_o sum_n but_o this_o that_o it_o will_v be_v better_o with_o they_o if_o they_o have_v bishop_n too_o but_o how_o it_o will_v be_v if_o they_o want_v bishop_n and_o pastor_n and_o elder_n too_o of_o that_o he_o say_v nothing_o the_o remonstrant_a have_v presume_v to_o know_v so_o much_o of_o the_o mind_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n as_o to_o aver_v that_o if_o they_o may_v have_v their_o option_n they_o will_v glad_o embrace_v episcopal_a government_n 136._o a_o foul_a imputation_n say_v the_o remonstrant_a

in_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o section_n he_o say_v this_o be_v one_o of_o the_o act_n that_o be_v appropriate_v to_o bishop_n alone_o and_o be_v not_o this_o to_o challenge_v sole_a power_n of_o ordination_n afterward_o in_o the_o same_o section_n he_o say_v ordination_n be_v one_o of_o the_o thing_n so_o intrinsical_v to_o episcopacy_n that_o in_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n no_o extremity_n of_o necessity_n be_v sufficient_a warrant_n to_o diffuse_v it_o into_o other_o hand_n the_o same_o power_n of_o ordination_n do_v bishop_n bilson_n andrew_n davenant_n montague_n etc._n etc._n challenge_v to_o episcopacy_n now_o reader_n judge_n be_v the_o sole_a they_o by_o challenge_n or_o no_o and_o what_o they_o challenge_v that_o they_o practise_v we_o doubt_v not_o but_o the_o remonstrants_n conscience_n can_v tell_v he_o there_o be_v many_o instance_n in_o england_n to_o be_v produce_v of_o man_n ordain_v in_o england_n without_o the_o hand_n of_o any_o presbyter_n the_o remonstrant_a be_v as_o unhappy_a as_o peremptory_a in_o his_o challenge_n he_o make_v i_o challenge_v they_o to_o show_v any_o one_o instance_n in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n sir_n the_o instance_n be_v without_o number_n some_o of_o we_o be_v ocular_a witness_n of_o many_o score_n at_o several_a ordination_n ordain_v by_o a_o bishop_n in_o his_o private_a chapel_n without_o the_o presence_n of_o any_o presbyter_n but_o his_o own_o domestic_a chaplain_n and_o without_o any_o assistance_n from_o he_o save_v only_o in_o read_v prayer_n but_o alas_o what_o shall_v we_o fall_v to_o instance_n put_v case_n a_o irish_a or_o welsh_a bishop_n ordain_v one_o at_o london_n in_o his_o chamber_n or_o some_o chapel_n and_o admit_v he_o which_o commend_v the_o person_n to_o he_o to_o join_v for_o fashion_n sake_n in_o the_o gesture_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v he_o of_o what_o place_n or_o diocese_n he_o will_v how_o little_a do_v this_o differ_v from_o sole_a ordination_n and_o how_o much_o from_o that_o regular_a and_o ordinate_a ordination_n of_o former_a time_n sir_n these_o be_v poor_a toy_n to_o mock_v the_o church_n withal_o if_o not_o god_n himself_o too_o can_v such_o a_o bishop_n say_v as_o well_o as_o cyprian_a ego_fw-la &_o collegae_fw-la you_o tell_v we_o our_o bishop_n may_v say_v no_o less_o than_o cyprian_a do_v but_o do_v the_o stile_n of_o your_o letter_n of_o order_n speak_v any_o such_o thing_n let_v the_o reader_n judge_v by_o a_o copy_n tenore_n praesentium_fw-la nos_fw-la n._n n._n providentiâ_fw-la divinâ_fw-la episc._n notum_fw-la facimus_fw-la universis_fw-la quod_fw-la die_fw-la mensis_fw-la anno_fw-la in_o capella_n nos_fw-la praefatus_fw-la episcopus_fw-la sacros_fw-la ordines_fw-la dei_fw-la praesidio_fw-la celebrantes_fw-la dilectum_fw-la nobis_fw-la etc._n etc._n e._n b._n de_fw-fr vitâ_fw-la sua_fw-la laudabili_fw-la etc._n etc._n a_o nobis_fw-la examinat_fw-la &_o approbat_fw-la ad_fw-la sacro_fw-la sanct_a presbyt_fw-la ordinem_fw-la ad_fw-la misimus_fw-la rite_n &_o canonicè_fw-la ordinavimus_fw-la &_o promovimus_fw-la in_o cujus_fw-la rei_fw-la testimonium_fw-la sigillum_fw-la nostrum_fw-la episcopale_n praesentibus_fw-la apponi_fw-la fecimus_fw-la construe_v you_o this_o ego_fw-la &_o collegae_fw-la brethren_n but_o you_o tell_v we_o cyprian_n phrase_v ego_fw-la &_o collegae_fw-la 70._o be_v in_o the_o case_n of_o aurelius_n make_v a_o lector_fw-la much_o to_o your_o advantage_n if_o a_o reader_n can_v not_o be_v ordain_v by_o a_o bishop_n alone_o do_v we_o think_v a_o presbyter_n can_v as_o for_o cyprian_n 58._o epist._n we_o produce_v it_o not_o as_o a_o proof_n of_o ordination_n in_o the_o hand_n of_o presbyter_n much_o less_o for_o the_o concurrent_a act_n of_o the_o people_n as_o the_o remonstrant_n will_v intimate_v but_o only_o for_o the_o explication_n of_o the_o word_n collegae_fw-la but_o it_o seem_v the_o remonstrant_a be_v resolve_v to_o pick_v some_o quarrel_n and_o rather_o to_o play_v at_o small_a game_n then_o stand_v out_o and_o if_o it_o be_v the_o order_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o well_o as_o of_o the_o council_n of_o carthage_n 71._o that_o when_o a_o presbyter_n be_v ordain_v all_o the_o presbyter_n that_o be_v present_a shall_v lay_v hand_n etc._n etc._n if_o there_o be_v such_o a_o order_n the_o more_o blame_v worthy_a the_o bishop_n who_o be_v such_o severe_a censurer_n of_o the_o breach_n of_o church_n order_n in_o other_o be_v themselves_o in_o the_o same_o crime_n for_o though_o you_o set_v a_o stout_a face_n upon_o the_o business_n and_o tell_v we_o that_o this_o order_n be_v perpetual_o and_o infallible_o keep_v by_o you_o yet_o the_o world_n know_v it_o be_v no_o such_o matter_n unless_o you_o mean_v that_o all_o the_o presbyter_n present_v do_v infallible_o and_o perpetual_o lay_v on_o hand_n in_o ordination_n because_o our_o ordination_n be_v so_o carry_v that_o for_o the_o most_o part_n there_o be_v but_o one_o sometime_o not_o one_o presbyter_n there_o beside_o the_o bishop_n but_o why_o do_v you_o take_v notice_n here_o of_o one_o canon_n of_o the_o council_n of_o carthage_n 71._o and_o not_o of_o the_o other_o ut_fw-la episcopus_fw-la sine_fw-la etc._n etc._n that_o a_o bishop_n shall_v ordain_v none_o of_o the_o clergy_n without_o the_o counsel_n of_o his_o clergy_n unless_o it_o be_v because_o here_o be_v such_o a_o manifest_a deflexion_n in_o the_o practice_n of_o we_o from_o former_a time_n as_o all_o the_o wit_n and_o rhetoric_n the_o remonstrant_a have_v can_v cover_v your_o next_o evasion_n be_v a_o plain_a leave_v the_o question_n we_o be_v to_o prove_v that_o bishop_n in_o ancient_a time_n do_v not_o ordain_v without_o presbyter_n you_o challenge_v we_o to_o prove_v a_o presbyter_n regular_a ordain_v without_o a_o bishop_n which_o be_v not_o the_o point_n in_o question_n who_o do_v here_o most_o abuse_v the_o reader_n let_v himself_o judge_v but_o we_o be_v accuse_v not_o only_o of_o abuse_v our_o reader_n but_o our_o author_n too_o and_o the_o remonstrant_a hope_n he_o have_v we_o here_o at_o such_o a_o vantage_n as_o shall_v try_v what_o modesty_n be_v in_o we_o three_o foul_a escape_n be_v lay_v to_o our_o charge_n first_o we_o abuse_v firmilianus_n in_o cast_v upon_o he_o a_o opinion_n of_o presbyter_n ordain_v which_o he_o never_o hold_v let_v we_o once_o again_o view_v the_o place_n firmilianus_n speak_v of_o the_o true_a church_n say_v ubi_fw-la president_n majores_fw-la natu_fw-la qui_fw-la &_o baptizandi_fw-la &_o manum_fw-la imponendi_fw-la &_o ordinandi_fw-la possident_fw-la potestatem_fw-la the_o controversy_n be_v who_o these_o majores_fw-la natu_fw-la be_v bishop_n say_v he_o bishop_n and_o elder_n say_v we_o to_o prove_v it_o we_o explicate_v firmilian_a by_o firmilian_a call_v a_o little_a before_o those_o who_o here_o he_o call_v majores_fw-la natu_fw-la seniores_fw-la &_o praepositi_fw-la which_o be_v not_o so_o far_o from_o that_o clause_n but_o that_o they_o may_v be_v bring_v without_o wire_n draw_v or_o foist_v 72._o and_o be_v not_o so_o remote_a from_o that_o place_n as_o those_o word_n which_o himself_o produce_v which_o we_o desire_v the_o courteous_a reader_n to_o consider_v because_o we_o be_v charge_v by_o he_o for_o foist_v in_o and_o wire_n draw_v the_o word_n of_o the_o author_n and_o also_o because_o the_o very_a word_n there_o cite_v by_o the_o remonstrant_a speak_v of_o a_o power_n of_o remit_v sin_n which_o we_o hope_v he_o will_v not_o engross_v to_o bishop_n exclude_v presbyter_n pamelius_n himself_o be_v with_o we_o who_o understand_v by_o seniores_fw-la &_o prepositi_fw-la the_o presbyter_n and_o bishop_n our_o next_o escape_n be_v but_o gross_a ignorance_n in_o translate_n ambrose_n presbyteri_fw-la consignant_fw-la by_o presbyter_n ordain_v every_o novice_n know_v consign_v signify_v confirmation_n and_o not_o ordain_v sir_n we_o appeal_v from_o your_o novice_n to_o judicious_a reader_n and_o entreat_v they_o to_o peruse_v the_o text_n and_o we_o doubt_v not_o but_o upon_o due_a consideration_n they_o will_v conclude_v for_o our_o sense_n let_v we_o then_o plead_v the_o case_n and_o tell_v you_o first_o 3._o that_o your_o desiderius_n heraldus_n show_v both_o the_o word_n signare_fw-la or_o consignare_fw-la in_o the_o phrase_n of_o antiquity_n to_o be_v as_o much_o as_o consecrare_fw-la and_o so_o do_v cyprian_n epist._n 2._o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v not_o incapable_a of_o such_o a_o sense_n as_o we_o have_v put_v upon_o it_o 2._o if_o the_o reader_n please_v to_o view_v the_o place_n in_o ambrose_n he_o shall_v find_v that_o ambrose_n there_o be_v speak_v of_o ordain_v man_n to_o public_a office_n in_o the_o church_n and_o not_o of_o confirmation_n 3._o though_o it_o shall_v be_v take_v for_o confirmation_n yet_o you_o gain_v nothing_o for_o the_o same_o canon_n that_o put_v power_n of_o ordination_n into_o the_o hand_n of_o bishop_n places_z the_o power_n of_o confirmation_n also_o in_o their_o hand_n and_o they_o among_o we_o that_o challenge_v the_o sole_a power_n

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church_n in_o her_o most_o flourish_a time_n be_v condemn_v for_o heresy_n and_o conclude_v that_o they_o

mean_v and_o if_o we_o ever_o do_v use_v the_o word_n communicate_v it_o be_v only_o to_o note_v a_o community_n in_o that_o power_n not_o a_o derivation_n of_o it_o as_o for_o his_o author_n which_o he_o alleage_n for_o sole_a ordination_n let_v the_o reader_n please_v to_o view_v our_o answer_n pag._n 37._o 38._o wherein_o he_o may_v receive_v full_a satisfaction_n and_o the_o rather_o because_o the_o remonstrant_a pass_v over_o it_o the_o three_o part_n of_o that_o office_n which_o the_o bishop_n call_v they_o be_v rule_v to_o prove_v this_o to_o belong_v to_o presbyter_n as_o well_o as_o bishop_n we_o cite_v heb._n 13._o 17._o here_o the_o remonstrant_a cry_n out_o oh_o injurious_a imputation_n do_v we_o not_o give_v you_o the_o title_n of_o rectores_fw-la ecclesiarum_fw-la and_o do_v we_o not_o commit_v to_o you_o regimen_fw-la animarum_fw-la 53._o so_o than_o you_o grant_v this_o place_n be_v right_o both_o interpret_v and_o apply_v but_o you_o give_v we_o say_v you_o the_o 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institution_n of_o the_o apostle_n inspire_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n 56._o if_o the_o remonstrant_a be_v not_o here_o mistake_v why_o do_v he_o page_n 47._o in_o express_a term_n grant_v we_o that_o in_o original_a authority_n of_o scripture_n bishop_n and_o presbyter_n be_v original_o the_o same_o for_o so_o be_v our_o word_n not_o as_o the_o remonstrant_a report_n they_o go_v for_o the_o same_o and_o why_o again_o when_o we_o tell_v he_o we_o never_o find_v in_o scripture_n these_o three_o order_n bishop_n presbyter_n &_o deacon_n we_o say_v not_o the_o name_n but_o order_n why_o do_v he_o grant_v that_o in_o the_o same_o page_n and_o fly_v from_o the_o write_n of_o the_o apostle_n to_o the_o monument_n of_o their_o immediate_a successer_n can_v we_o imagine_v that_o the_o apostle_n do_v by_o inspiration_n from_o the_o holy_a ghost_n ordain_v any_o thing_n in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n as_o of_o perpetual_a use_n the_o record_n where_o of_o be_v not_o find_v in_o sacred_a scripture_n which_o be_v give_v by_o the_o same_o inspiration_n to_o the_o same_o man_n if_o we_o may_v imagine_v it_o sure_o we_o can_v believe_v it_o and_o if_o it_o be_v a_o institution_n of_o the_o apostle_n inspire_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n why_o must_v it_o be_v distinguish_v from_o the_o express_a law_n of_o god_n do_v he_o make_v it_o but_o a_o evangelical_a counsel_n not_o require_v it_o as_o necessary_a to_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n sure_o this_o be_v some_o opinion_n of_o a_o new_a cut_n for_o the_o last_o defendant_n of_o episcopacy_n before_o this_o remonstrant_a say_v thus_o 91._o the_o power_n of_o ordination_n have_v be_v ever_o hold_v so_o intrinsical_v to_o episcopacy_n that_o i_o will_v fain_o see_v where_o it_o can_v be_v show_v that_o any_o extremity_n of_o necessity_n be_v ever_o acknowledge_v a_o warrant_n sufficient_a for_o other_o to_o ordain_v so_o that_o in_o his_o judgement_n where_o there_o be_v no_o bishop_n there_o can_v be_v no_o lawful_a ordination_n let_v it_o be_v in_o the_o case_n of_o extreme_a necessity_n and_o where_o no_o ordination_n no_o ministry_n and_o so_o consequent_o no_o word_n and_o sacrament_n and_o no_o church_n and_o how_o then_o in_o the_o judgement_n of_o these_o man_n be_v episcopacy_n not_o require_v to_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n and_o if_o not_o require_v it_o to_o the_o be_v of_o a_o church_n how_o then_o require_v it_o only_o where_o it_o may_v be_v have_v what_o a_o strange_a limitation_n be_v this_o where_o be_v it_o that_o episcopacy_n may_v not_o must_v not_o be_v have_v if_o it_o be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n where_o be_v it_o that_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n may_v not_o have_v word_n sacrament_n pastor_n and_o bishop_n too_o if_o they_o be_v his_o ordinance_n it_o be_v true_a indeed_o some_o there_o be_v that_o can_v have_v lord_n bishop_n pompous_a bishop_n and_o once_o

may_v be_v settle_v in_o the_o same_o these_o dissension_n be_v not_o about_o seat_n or_o rate_n but_o a_o contention_n between_o silvanus_n the_o bishop_n and_o nundinarius_n the_o deacon_n in_o a_o matter_n of_o a_o high_a nature_n too_o high_a for_o our_o church_n warden_n faelicis_fw-la or_o vestryman_n to_o meddle_v in_o the_o bishop_n be_v accuse_v that_o he_o be_v traditor_n &_o fur_n rerum_fw-la pauperum_fw-la do_v ever_o churchwarden_n or_o vestry_n man_n among_o we_o hear_v inquire_v judge_n compose_v such_o difference_n as_o these_o be_v what_o shall_v john_n a_o nokes_n and_o john_n a_o style_n senior_n and_o smug_n the_o smith_n meddle_v with_o a_o business_n of_o bishop_n say_v episcopacy_n by_o divine_a right_n part_n 3._o pag._n 32._o but_o how_o do_v he_o prove_v they_o be_v but_o as_o our_o churchwarden_n or_o vestryman_n first_o because_o deacon_n be_v name_v before_o these_o senior_n where_o ever_o they_o be_v mention_v second_o because_o optatus_n reckon_v up_o quatuor_fw-la genera_fw-la capitum_fw-la mention_n not_o elder_n 147._o for_o the_o first_o though_o the_o order_n of_o reckon_v they_o be_v not_o so_o much_o to_o be_v insist_v upon_o yet_o we_o can_v tell_v you_o if_o here_o your_o confidence_n have_v not_o be_v great_a than_o your_o consideration_n that_o you_o may_v have_v observe_v that_o in_o some_o place_n they_o be_v mention_v not_o only_o before_o deacon_n but_o the_o whole_a clergy_n for_o so_o gregory_n letter_n cite_v by_o we_o tabellarium_fw-la cum_fw-la consensu_fw-la seniorum_fw-la &_o cleri_fw-la memineris_fw-la ordinandum_fw-la be_v not_o senior_n here_o mention_v before_o the_o clergy_n his_o second_o proof_n that_o these_o elder_n be_v no_o better_o then_o mere_a churchmarden_n and_o vestry_n man_n be_v because_o optatus_n mention_v four_o sort_n of_o man_n in_o the_o church_n mention_n not_o these_o elder_n but_o be_v this_o the_o man_n that_o have_v with_o such_o height_n of_o scorn_n vilify_v poor_a negative_a argument_n though_o draw_v from_o sacred_a scripture_n and_o will_v he_o now_o lie_v such_o weight_n upon_o a_o negative_a argument_n sure_o if_o all_o the_o truth_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o primitive_a time_n be_v bind_v up_o in_o one_o optatus_n as_o all_o divine_a truth_n be_v lodge_v in_o the_o sacred_a volume_n of_o the_o scripture_n the_o remonstrant_a may_v have_v make_v much_o of_o his_o negative_a argument_n yet_o he_o scorn_v to_o hear_v we_o reason_v that_o because_o we_o do_v not_o read_v that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n do_v by_o the_o apostle_n appoint_v bishop_n in_o remedium_fw-la schismatis_fw-la therefore_o we_o can_v believe_v bishop_n be_v of_o divine_a or_o apostolical_a institution_n but_o of_o humane_a away_o say_v he_o with_o this_o poor_a negative_a argument_n and_o because_o the_o apostle_n ephesian_n the_o four_o reckon_v the_o officer_n who_o christ_n have_v give_v and_o gift_v for_o the_o edification_n of_o his_o church_n reckon_v up_o only_a apostle_n prophet_n evangelist_n pastor_n &_o teacher_n if_o we_o shall_v conclude_v ergo_fw-la there_o be_v no_o bishop_n the_o remonstrant_a will_v cry_v out_o again_o away_o with_o these_o negative_a argument_n yet_o such_o a_o argument_n from_o scripture_n may_v be_v valid_a though_o from_o no_o other_o authority_n as_o for_o optatus_n first_o though_o in_o these_o place_n he_o mention_n not_o elder_n yet_o that_o other_o place_n which_o we_o bring_v out_o of_o the_o same_o author_n do_v which_o the_o learned_a antiquary_n albaspinaeus_n though_o a_o papist_n with_o we_o acknowledge_v second_o these_o place_n produce_v by_o the_o remonstrant_a cross_a one_o another_o as_o much_o as_o they_o cross_v we_o for_o ministri_fw-la be_v leave_v out_o in_o one_o as_o well_o as_o seniores_fw-la in_o both_o three_o these_o seniores_fw-la be_v include_v in_o turba_fw-la fidelium_fw-la as_o the_o apostle_n rom._n 10._o 14._o comprehend_v all_o the_o church_n under_o these_o two_o hearer_n and_o teacher_n and_o so_o again_o heb._n 13._o 24._o ruler_n and_o saint_n yet_o the_o remonstrant_a be_v resolve_v to_o hold_v the_o conclusion_n elder_n in_o a_o rank_n above_o deacon_n in_o a_o settle_a power_n of_o government_n with_o the_o pastor_n 147._o shall_v be_v damn_v by_o he_o for_o a_o new_a and_o unjustifiable_a opinion_n yet_o this_o be_v the_o man_n that_o will_v by_o no_o mean_n be_v think_v to_o condemn_v the_o reform_a church_n though_o he_o fall_v as_o unhappy_o near_o the_o very_a word_n of_o their_o profess_a enemy_n the_o netherlands_n remonstants_n as_o ever_o we_o do_v the_o word_n of_o aerius_n quod_fw-la attinet_fw-la praxin_n antiquitatis_fw-la ex_fw-la ●â_fw-la videlicet_fw-la id_fw-la demonstrari_fw-la posse_fw-la idoneis_fw-la argumentis_fw-la ut_fw-la censor_n asserit_fw-la audaciae_fw-la &_o temeritatis_fw-la est_fw-la and_o again_o tota_n antiquitatis_fw-la praxis_fw-la ei_fw-la repugnat_fw-la but_o oh_o that_o our_o remonstrant_n will_v once_o learn_v to_o take_v the_o counsel_n he_o give_v and_o he_o that_o advise_v we_o to_o give_v glory_n to_o god_n in_o yield_v to_o undoubted_a and_o clear_a truth_n will_v do_v so_o himself_o for_o if_o it_o be_v not_o more_o clear_a that_o there_o be_v elder_n ancient_o in_o the_o church_n then_o that_o there_o be_v none_o and_o that_o these_o elder_n be_v not_o civil_a alderman_n but_o ecclesiastical_a officer_n not_o mere_a churchwarden_n and_o vestry_n man_n busy_v about_o inferior_a thing_n of_o seat_n and_o rate_n but_o employ_v in_o matter_n of_o high_a nature_n let_v the_o remonstrant_fw-la never_o renounce_v episcopacy_n but_o if_o it_o be_v let_v he_o take_v heed_n he_o do_v not_o renounce_v his_o word_n which_o he_o utter_v pag._n 147._o i_o do_v here_o solemn_o profess_v that_o if_o any_o one_o such_o instance_n can_v be_v bring_v i_o will_v renounce_v episcopacy_n for_o ever_o sect_n xvi_o xvii_o xviii_o the_o rest_n of_o our_o answer_n you_o say_v be_v but_o a_o mere_a declamation_n and_o good_a sir_n 148._o what_o be_v your_o whole_a remonstrance_n but_o a_o declamation_n and_o what_o be_v your_o defence_n but_o a_o satire_n but_o we_o be_v worthy_a of_o no_o other_o answer_n than_o contempt_n and_o silence_n you_o be_v very_o dextrous_a and_o happy_a in_o those_o kind_n of_o answer_n your_o whole_a defence_n be_v full_a of_o they_o it_o be_v true_a you_o say_v the_o religious_a bishop_n of_o all_o time_n have_v strong_o uphold_v the_o truth_n of_o god_n against_o satan_n and_o against_o his_o antichrist_n and_o it_o be_v as_o true_a that_o we_o tell_v you_o that_o other_o have_v uphold_v the_o truth_n as_o strong_o as_o bishop_n ever_o do_v yea_o &_o at_o sometime_o when_o there_o be_v never_o a_o bishop_n in_o the_o world_n to_o appear_v for_o the_o truth_n and_o therefore_o never_o impropriate_a all_o the_o glory_n to_o episcopacy_n it_o be_v also_o true_a that_o we_o tell_v you_o that_o some_o irreligious_a bishop_n have_v uphold_v satan_n and_o his_o antichrist_n against_o the_o truth_n of_o god_n and_o what_o can_v you_o say_v to_o this_o what_o be_v this_o to_o their_o call_n sir_n their_o uphold_v antichrist_n make_v as_o much_o against_o their_o call_n as_o their_o uphold_v the_o truth_n make_v for_o their_o call_n if_o you_o fetch_v a_o argument_n from_o the_o one_o for_o their_o call_n we_o may_v as_o logical_o fetch_v a_o argument_n from_o the_o other_o against_o their_o call_n with_o as_o much_o conclude_a strength_n but_o you_o can_v tell_v we_o of_o presbyter_n wicked_a and_o irreligious_a shall_v the_o function_n itself_o therefore_o suffer_v like_a enough_o and_o we_o can_v tell_v you_o that_o they_o find_v more_o countenance_n from_o bishop_n then_o the_o painfull_a minister_n but_o if_o presbyter_n shall_v be_v as_o general_o corrupt_v as_o bishop_n now_o be_v have_v as_o much_o strength_n to_o suppress_v the_o gospel_n and_o promote_v popery_n as_o the_o bishop_n by_o their_o supreme_a power_n have_v if_o they_o can_v bring_v no_o more_o evidence_n of_o divine_a institution_n than_o bishop_n can_v and_o be_v of_o no_o more_o necessity_n to_o the_o church_n than_o bishop_n be_v let_v the_o function_n suffer_v we_o tell_v you_o what_o a_o unpreach_a bishop_n say_v of_o a_o preach_a bishop_n this_o say_v you_o be_v our_o slander_n not_o their_o just_a epithet_n and_o challenge_v we_o to_o show_v any_o unpreach_a bishop_n in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n this_o day_n sir_n pardon_v we_o if_o we_o tell_v you_o that_o you_o put_v we_o in_o mind_n of_o a_o poor_a sir_n john_n that_o because_o he_o have_v make_v one_o sermon_n in_o 40._o year_n will_v needs_o be_v count_v a_o preach_a minister_n if_o you_o speak_v of_o preach_v after_o that_o rate_n than_o indeed_o you_o may_v call_v all_o the_o bishop_n in_o england_n preach_v bishop_n but_o the_o people_n of_o england_n can_v so_o well_o tell_v who_o deserve_v the_o name_n of_o a_o preach_a bishop_n that_o it_o be_v not_o the_o preach_n of_o a_o