not to any one or moe members sequestred from the vvhole Now we have been lately taught that the Church which Christ sendeth to for the redresse of sinnes Mat. 18.17 is not to be understood of the whole bodie of the Congregation but of the Church of Elders And it being graunted of all that with the Church is the power the Elders being the Church have the power and so not the whole bodie of the congregation together 2 We had learned 2. Treâ—â— of the Ministerie of Eng. pag. 63. Apol. pag. 63. that everie true Church of Christ hath this povver to cast out obstinate sinners from amongst theÌ„ and this not onely vvhen it hath Officers but also vvhen it vvanteth them But wow we were taught that a people without Officers have not power to cast out obstinate sinners Which doctrine amongst other evils overthroweth the constitution of the Church that so taught for it was gathered and constituted by Christians without Officers receiving in the repentant and casting out the disobedient whereas by this opinion they had power from Christ to doe neyther for they that can not cast out can not receive in one power is for both 3 We had learned that everie Christian Congregation hath povver and commandement to elect ordeyne their ovvn ministerie according to the rules of Gods vvord 3. Confes art 23. 35. Apol. pag. 46. and upon such default in life doctrine or administration as by the rule of the vvord depriveth them of the ministerie by due order to depose them from their ministerie they exercised yea if the case so require orderly to cut them off by excommunication But now it is by some mainteyned that the Congregation can neither put into office nor put out of office unlesse they have officers to doe both and can neyther for heresie nor other vvickednes excommunicate or depose their Eldership 4 We had learned that none may execute a ministerie 4. Confes art 21. but such as are rightly called by the Church vvhereof they stand ministers unto such offices and in such manner as God hath prescribed in his vvord But now those will execute a ministerie which have not rightly been called by the Church whereof they stand Ministers according to their owne account and doctrine which hold as before that a people without Officers have no warrant from God to make or depose Ministers 5 We had learned that it vvas grosse error and notorious absurditie 5. Apol. p. 113. 116 n. 112. either to hold the popish Church to be a true Church having a true ministerie and true Sacraments or els that men must admit of rebaptising But now wee have heard that the Baptisme of the Popish Church is true Baptisme by which we are bound to communion or els that men must be rebaptised and that the Church of Rome is the Church of God because Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God 6 We had learned that all particular Congregations are by all meanes convenient to have the counsel and help one of 6. Conf. art 38. another in all needfull affaires of the Church as meÌ„bers of one bodie in the coÌ„mon faith yet here when differences had arisen about our coÌ„mon faith and could not amongst our selves be coÌ„posed they would not desire nor consent to have desired the help of our sister Church at Leyden althovgh it were instantly urged by many members that their assistance should be had And when without their consent the help of that Church was obteyned they laboured our peace a waie of peace was agreed off between the Churches this agrement and peace was not stood unto but reversed by them contrarie to our wil to the wil and liking of the Church at Leyden as the same Church can testifie for us Wherefore after long disputing these matters when no waie of peace could by us be found to continue together in the truth holynes But lamentable Dissipation of the Church members began to growe to the dishonour of Gods name wounding of our harts we followed the commandement of the Apostle which sayd I beseech you brethren marke them diligently which cause divisions offences contrarie to the doctrine which we have learned and avoyde them Rom. 16.17 And have sithens laboured to build up our selves in the holie faith whereunto God hath called us in love peace mourning for the great scandall and reproch which Sathan hath wrought by this breach amongst us Thus have I shewed you the fountaine of our sorrowes which God for our sinnes hath brought upon us He look upoÌ„ us in mercie pittie the dispersion of Sion And you as you have knowen the truth which is sealed to your conscience so abide therein faithfull unto the end knowing it is the lot of Gods people thus to be exercised with troubles in it self which if we beare with patience and constansie doe overcome our portion shall be in the tree of life which is in the midest of the Paradise of God H. A. THE ARTICLES AND OBIECTIONS About the division vvhich are published in Lawnes discoverie of schisme page 79. c. THe 23 article of the Confession of our faith whereto also our Apologie agreeth page 46.47 professeth that everie Christian congregation hath povver to elect ordeyne their ovvne ministerie c. upon desert againe to depose yea excommunicate them These have defended that a Congregation without Ministers can not ordeyne officers And that if the Eldership fall into heresie or wickednesse the whole Congregation cannot depose nor excoÌ„municate them And that a Congregation without an Eldership cannot excommunicate any wicked person whatsoever 2. The 24 article confirmed in our Apologie page 60.62.63 professeth that the povver to receiue in or to cut off any member is given to the vvhole bodie together of everie Christian Congregation Mat. 18.17 c. These have pleaded for the Eldership to be the Church Mat. 18. to have both rightfull power and able power to excommunicate though without against the consent of the bodie of the Congregation 3. The 29 article as also our Apologie page 51.52 professeth that the Hierarchie of Archbishops Lordbishoppes Priests c. are a straunge and Antichristian Ministerie Officers not instituted by Christs Testament nor placed in or over his Church These have placed over them one that was made Priest by a Lordbishops ordination so as because of it they did not ordeyne or impose hands on him when at the same time they ordeyned and imposed hands on others whom together with him they set over the Church 4. The 31 article and also our Apologie page 109. professeth that such ecclesiasticall assemblies as remaine so in coÌ„fusion bondage under that Antichristian Ministerie Courts Canons c. caÌ„not be esteemed true visible Churches c. These now pleade not onely for them but for Rome it self to be the true Church of God 5. The 32 article whereto our Apologie agreeth page
52.53.54 testifyeth that all such as haue received any of those false Offices of Lordbishops Priests c. are to give over and leaue them and so hath it been practised heer before by all such Priests as came to our fayth Church now one is Minister over them ordeyned Priest by the Prelates as is before said 6. The 33 article which our Apologie also confirmeth page 45. professeth that people being come forth of the Antichristiā estate c. are vvillngly to joyne together in Christian communion and orderly covenant to unite themselues into peculiar and visible congregations c. These haue pleaded that all are bound to communion by vertue of their baptisme received in the Church of Rome or other Antichristiā assemblies 7. The 35 article confirmed also in our Apologie page 46.47.48 professeth that a people so joyned together may proceede to choise ordination of Officers c. Now these pleade that the people may not proceede to ordination of Officers except they haue Officers before to doe it 8. In our Apologie page 113 it vvas maynteyned to be grosse errour and notorious absurditie eyther to hold the Popish Church to be a true Church having a true Ministerie and true Sacraments or els that men are unbaptised must admit of the Anabaptists rebaptisation These haue themselues much objected to us that eyther the Church and Baptisme of Rome is true or else we must be rebaptised Both which we still deny 9. The 38 article of our Confession professeth that Congregations are by all meanes convenient to haue the counsel help one of another in all needfull affaires c. The practise of this was was denyed when in our greatest need trouble they would not consent to haue the coūsel help of the English Church at Leyden which professeth the same fayth with us 1. Before our parting vve offered that notvvithstanding our differences of judgment that vve vvould continue together if our former practise might be reteyned but this vvas refused 2. We desired that then we might haue a peaceable parting and to be tvvo distinct Congregations each practising as they vvere persvvaded yet nourishing brotherly loue and unitie This also they vvould not agree to unlesse vvee vvould leaue this citie 3. We procured though vvithout their consent the help of the English Church at Leyden vvho laboured our peace a waie of peace by these themselues propounded by the Church of Leyden us agreed to these after reversed stood not unto unlesse vve vvould goe dvvell out of this Citie And although in the treatie of the Agreement it vvas testifyed by the Elders of that Church that unlesse it vvere to the apparant undoing of us and of our families vve should not be dismissed againe to dwell here yet because vve would not absolutely promise to leaue this Citie they vvould not stand to the agreement vvhich themselues had mad◠THese are the Articles Objections that are in the printed copie aforesayd VVhich therefore vve had not thought to haue printed againe But vvhen vve had finished this book vve received out of England from another friend another of M. A. his letters sent thither vvherein these also are set dovvne in this maner order and in the same vvords vvith very litle alteration thereof VVe considered also that in the Ansvver here follovving there is often reference made to the printed copie of these Articles and Exceptions and that therefore it vvould be good for the Reader to haue thē here readie at hand VVhereupon vve thought it not amisse to print thē again and to advertise those that haue the books to insert them betvveen C. D. if it be not alreadie done to their hands Novv follovveth the Ansvver vvhich vvas first made to the former letter according to the sixe particulars thereof but is since inlarged by reason of this printed copie aforesaid Concerning vvhich also vve could note ansvver more and other things then novv vve haue done in this shortnes of time As about some speciall respects uses in some cases to be had of the Fathers of families or of the chiefest fittest of them as upon occasion some of us spake in the reasoning had among us Also that vvheras they vvould seem in their letters exceptions as if they had desired peace and accord vvith us yet besides all the things noted hereafter about their dealing Pag. 74.75 c. this also is remembred that vvhen vve vvere treating of some vvaie of accord some of them publikly sayd they vvould never yeeld thereunto unles vve vvould revoke our agreement about the understanding of Mat. 18.17 and that also as an errour VVhich vve could not yeelde unto as may be perceived by the agreement it self vvhich is hereafter set dovvne page 95.96 c. But omitting novv to speak any further of these or other things that might also be noted about their objections and dealing vve vvill for the present onely desire the Reader about the particulars still to remēber that vvhich sometimes vve haue mentioned here Pag. 44. 45. c that extraordinarie cases must haue their vvarrant accordingly that the things concerning a people vvithout officers vvere left to further consideratiō among us needed not by us novv be stood upon seeing our estate question vvas of the ordinarie government of a Church established vvith Officers For vvhich also see the Treatise on Mat. 18.17 tovvard the end thereof And novv read the ansvver of the foresayd letters and objections as here it follovveth AN ANSVVER TO the writing and exceptions aforesaid sent to the same partie by Mr. Fr. Io. VVhereunto he hath also added some things more upon occasion of the other copie lately printed TOwching them that haue divided them selues from us and M. A. vvriting unto you therabout there are divers things of weight which you should do well carefully to observe And first how they having left us upon two particular matters concerning the Churches government and the exposition of Mat. 18.17 they doe not directly keep unto them as they ought neyther answere the things printed thereabout so long since VVhereunto both vve and all that loue the truth and desire their conversion must be carefull to keep hold thē And even by this their dealing it may appeare how needfull that our publication of the matter was both for manifestation of the truth held by us for meeting with their clamours and all their disorderly and unapproveable courses so much affected by them Secondly it must be remembred that our profession alwaie hath been and must be to have the word of God for our direction in all things by it to trie all things to keep that vvhich is good and to refuse and redresse whatsoever is evill or any way erring therefrom For which see the Praeface of our Confession at the end of it And in the Apologie pag. 13. 41 as also the Answer to Thomas White pag. 36. So as there is
hand may decide stay determine and conclude all matters of controversie in the Church though all the Elders other brethren be against them Cons art 34. Plea for infaÌ„ts p. 180. to 185. CoÌ„teâ—p pag. 177. 4 VVe professed heretofore that no Sacraments should be ministred untill the Pastors or Teachers were chosen and ordeyned into their Office Now it is hield by some that seing all the holie things of God are the Churches and people without Officers are a Church therefore they may without Officers haue the use of the Sacraments and all the holie things of God consequently may receive in by Baptisme confirme by the Lords Supper cast out by excommunication c. And in this writing sent unto you it may be observed how they inferre that people without Officers may cast out and therefore may receive in there being one power for both Conf. art 21. Conterp pag. 176.177 5 VVe had learned that none may usurp or execute a ministerie but such as are rightly called by the Church wherof they stand ministers unto such Offices and in such manner as God hath prescribed in his word Now it is held by some that people out of office may execute all the works and duties of the ministerie for Baptisme Lords Supper CeÌ„sures c. And these men in their second exception here vvrite there is one power for receiving in casting out that people without Officers may doe both as is observed before Conf. art 1.10 17 18 19 21 23 24 25 26 27.34 36. throughout the Conf. Apol other of our Treatises as Defence against Mr. Sm. pag. 10 13 88 c. 6 VVe learned and used heretofore to applie to our estate and use the things that the Scriptures teach concerning the Governours and people in Israel Now vve are excepted opposed against if we doe so vvith these exceptions and the like viz. that they had civill auctoritie and government which the Church hath not that they could not in Israel forgive one anothers sinne as we can now that the people now have more power then in Israel because now we follow Christ into heaven And yet the people were typically caried in by the Hyepriest in the pretious stones on his shoulders brest as the most holy place it self vvas a type of heaven whereas the people might not follow the High priest into the most holie place c. And vvhat if any other vvould say that by like reason the Elders novv should haue more povver then the Elders in Israel because the Elders novv follovv Christ into heaven vvhereas the Elders then might not follovv the high priest into the most holie place And that Kings should have more povver nov in religion then the Kings of Israel because Kings novv follovv Christ into heaven vvhereas the Kings then might not follovv the hiepriest into the most holie place no nor so much as into the holie place to come to the altar to offer incense 2 Chron. 26. And note here also that Christ and the Apostles reasoning from the civil estate of the Governours people of Israel applying the things of it to the kingdome and Church of Christ to the Governours and people of the Church novv should by this nevv learning of these men be thought to misapplie those Scriptures and places so alledged by them As Mat. 21.24 Iohn 10.34 Act. 1.20 Ephes 12.13.19.20.21 and in a number the like places Plea for Infants p. 166.167 268 c. Treat against the Anabap. p 16. c. some grounds tending this way in the Apol p. 108 c. in Answer to M. Iacob p. 7 13 c. 7 VVe held that the Baptisme of Rome vvas as true Baptisme as circumcisioÌ„ in the Apostasie of Israel vvas true circumcision and needed not to be renounced and repeated novv vve vvere taught that the Baptisme aforesaid is an Idol And vve knovv that all Idols yea and all monuments of idolatrie are to be renounced and rejected Esa 30.22 And an Idol is nothing in the wold sayth the Apostle 1 Cor. 8 4. so as then such baptisme is nothing such people are an unbaptised people ought therefore vvith the Anabaptists to get themselues baptised Thus if I would follow their course you may see I could note dovvne some doctrines and assertions not all of the soundest vvhich our opposites have of late delivered and given forth although I have hitherto held my peace there about Neyther vvould I yet publish them if there vvere or might be hope of their repentance and amendement but for your better information concerning them their dealing I have thus imparâ—ed them unto you By vvhich any may consider vvhether it vvere not high time for us to look to these persons and to these things vvhen they vere come to this passe grovven to such an heigth among us Now next for ansvver of their exceptions sent unto you against us though it be not so meet to be done in a private Letter seeing vve have published the causes of the division they made whereunto they have not yet given answer yet have I thought it not amisse upon this occasion and unto you as your case stands to vvrite somevvhat thereabout For the first therefore which is made by comparing together the understanding of Mat. 18 17. with the Confession Art 24. and the Apol. pag. 62.63 I haue already vvritten and published a Treatise concerning the exposition of that Scripture vvhere also the reasons alledged in the Apologie are purposely and particularly treated of to vvhich I referre you thereabout And vvhat dealing is this of theirs that having made such a division as they have done they leave the Treatise unansvvered which was purposely written upon that occasion and argument and yet cease not privately thus to insinuate as they doe Besides if for their vvonted Phrase the Church of Elders they vvould use such termes as othervvhere the Scriptures in our translations haue and as the vvord it self doth signifie namely the Congregation of Elders or the Assemblie of Elders or the like then both themselues others might sooner perceive the vanitie of their error and the light of the truth against theÌ„ Neyther should they forget hovv M. Ainsvvorth himself in his Ansvver to Mr. Bernard shevveth that the vvord is sometime so used for the Congregation or Assemblie of Elders and Governours Mr. Ainsw Conterpoys pag. 113. Lastly you may observe in the Article of our Confession here alledged Conf. art 24. that for the declaration and proof thereof these Scriptures among other are cited Psal 122.3 Lev. 20.4 5. 24.14 Numb 5.2.3 Deut. 13.9 all vvhich doe directly carry us for this matter to the Church of Israel and constitution thereof vvhich novv through love of their error they vvould not be brought unto for the consideration and deciding of the matter betvveen us Observe also hereabout that the povver of receiving in and cutting off given
no weight in it to say Thus we held heretofore now we hold thus unlesse it could be shewed that it is against the word of God that which now is held by us Nay seeing the faith of this Church is that onely which is grouÌ„ded upon the vvord of God in the vvritings of the Prophets Apostles so our faith is the coÌ„mon auncient faith vvhich vvas held by Israel of old by the Primitive churches since the coÌ„ming of Christ it followeth ther uppoÌ„ that vvherin so ever we have swarved in faith or practise therfroÌ„ it hath beÌ„ our aberratioÌ„ not our faith indeed Thirdly concerning the speciall particular in question our auncient profession hath been Cons aâ—t 17. 19. that the Church is to be governed onely by those lawes and Officers that the Lord hath appointed in his word and by none other From vvhich howsoever vve have erred in our practise yet this is our auncient faith so as that vvhich novv vve doe is to reteyne our euncient fayth to reforme our practise according thereunto as vve are bound daily to grow in grace and in obedience of the fayth And for our practise also if vve vvould insist upon it our auncient practise it self vvas othervvise then as lately of a fewe yeeres it had been vvhich later course the people that are departed froÌ„ us vvould have had us to reteyne And so they them selves vvould have had us kept a later and leave our auncienter practise Thus much also vve vvrote to Leyden before the division vvas made then Mr. Ainsvv himself subscribed unto it Fourthly observe in their exceptions against us if they be not almost all of them such as the Anabaptists vvould object in much like manner And a vveake cause it must needs be that relies upon the Anabaptists or anie other erroneous grouds Hovv much better had they done if they had considered vvith themselues that vvheÌ„ Christ himself taught doctrine vvhich was not onely souÌ„d true but evident also coÌ„fortable to such as could understand it aright yet many of his disciples vvhen they heard it said This is an hard saying who can hear it so both murmured at it were so offended with it as they weÌ„t back walked no more vvith him Ioh. 6.60.62.66 Or if they had regarded that which M. Ains hath well observed in his Arrowe pag. 4. against Idolatrie that SathaÌ„ hath separated meÌ„ froÌ„ the Church as by other meanes 1 King 12.27 28.29 Iude v. 19 Heb. 10.25 so also by causing them to withdraw and schisme them selues for some pretented cause or quarrel as did the Israelites others after them c. Fiftly if we should set our selves to make exceptioÌ„s against theÌ„ as they haue done against us we could seÌ„d spread our private letters as they doe accoÌ„panied with more sound better observatioÌ„s against theÌ„ touching such things as have passed amoÌ„g us As for exaÌ„ple a litle to imitate resemble their veyn of vvriting thus Many troublesome daies ful of contentioÌ„ hath God exercised us here together withall vvhiles we could not be brought in singlenes of hart vvith humilitie to obey the governours observe the govermeÌ„t prescribed in his vvord to seek him in the midest of our pilgrimage vvith love peace For love of preeminence which hath always troubled the church hath also troubled us vvhiles the people that should be under the Governors vvould be over above them c. For 1. vvhereas vve had learned professed that Christ was the onely king Lord of his Church Conf. art 10 17.19.20 Conterp pag. 175.176 and in other Treatises every where as Defen against M. Sm. p. 126 127.128 had left uÌ„to it amoÌ„g meÌ„ but a ministerial governmeÌ„t that all the multitude of the meÌ„bers the saincts ought to obey submit to the Eldership in everie church Now we haue lately beÌ„ taught * In their dispute against us in M. Rob. Iustif 217.225 c. that the people as kings have povver one over another and that the saincts being kings are superiour to their Officers because the order of kings is the highest order or estate in the church so an order superior unto above the order of Officers or Eldership Also that the Church may in relatioÌ„ to the Officers being servants therein be called a Lord c. vvhich things they affirme for proof of their opinion touching the points in questioÌ„ betweeÌ„ us about the Churches government And vvheras vve have still professed that the people vvere inferiour and uÌ„der the officers novv vve have had it much urged about the questioÌ„ coÌ„troverted that the people are superior above theÌ„ Thus to advaÌ„ce the people one over another as kings and to make them superlours aboue their Governours and to intitle them with kingly and Lordly power in the outward policie affaires of the Church and members thereof whereas Christ hath given his Church no other but a ministeriall power governement what is it els but in deed to set up such Churches people as so manie Idols Like as Mr. Ainsw sheweth against the Prelates Mr. A. Atrovve against Idol pag. 19. 20. that Idols are set up with impietie when among men one is set up as Head of the Church others as Archbishops and Lords spirituall c. For doth it not thus come to passe that as the Prelates on the one hand so the people on the other hand doe even become Idols whiles both of them runne to extremities in such advauncing of themselves neyther of theÌ„ will keep or be kept in the meane in the ministeriall way which the Lord hath appointed in his word Confes art 24. 2 VVe professed heretofore that Christ gave the power of receiving in cutting off to the whole bodie together of everie Christian Congregation not to any one or most members sequestred from the whole c. Now we haue been taught that in cases of question and controversie the greater part of the people are the Church though all the Elders and other brethren be against them and it being graunted of all that with the Church is the power that greater part of the people though never so erroneously caried being the Church they have the povver and so they may receiue in and cut off though all the Elders and other brethren it may be but one fewer and of much better judgment be against it M. Ains Conterp p. 177. 3. VVe vvrote heretofore that the Elders have the reyns of government committed to them Now wee are taught that the government of the Church is not Aristocraticall yea that the people as kings haue the povver and the greater part of the people though in error are the Church as is noted before And so then by their opinion will follow that the greater part of the people yea that all the people being kings haue the reynes in their
to the Church of Israel vvas by them used and to be performed according to order and not any vvay to vveaken but to stablish the Elders auctoritie And vve must not be straungers from the policie of Israel Eph. 2.12 c. Yea this verie instruction in Mat. 18.17 is such as it accordeth vvith and hath reference unto the grounds and ordinances of God taught of old by Moses the Prophets as is shevved in particular in the Treatise aforesaid and in the Churches agreement published there about So as their opposition against us therein is indeed against Israel against Moses against the Prophets And vvhether thē it be not also consequently against the Lord and his ordinances prescribed in his vvord let all indifferent men judge Such is their error and so great is their transgression and iniquitie And hitherto of the first Objection vvhich in the printed copie is the second VVhere furthermore observe hovv vvhen they doe here quote the Scriptures alledged for proof of the 24 Article of the Confession they doe it thus Mat. 18.17 c. vvhereas in the Confession it is thus Psal 122.3 c. VVhich is to be noted in divers respects First because it sheweth that at the setting downe of the Confessiō the Scriptures of the old testament were observed for the confirmation of it asvvell as of the newe Secondly that Mat. 18.17 is so to be understood as may agree vvith the other Scriptures namely vvith Psal 122.3 Lev. 20.4.5 and 24.14 Numb 5.2.3 Deut. 13 9. vvhich Scriptures are in this article also alledged and joyned vvith that of Mat. 18.17 Thirdly that it must be understood vvith agreement and proportion to the order and manner of Israel vvhereof these scriptures doe directly speak Fourthly that therefore our understanding of it novv as vve doe is in the truth of the point it self according to our auncient sayth and not theirs vvho vvould make us straungers from Israel and vvould persvvade us that Christs doctrine in Mat. 18.17 is a nevve rule for the Churches novv vvhich Israel had not And that these people therefore have in deed left the ancient faith which thing they object unto others Moreover by the Scriptures asoresayd joyned together and compared vvith the estate of Israel it doth appeare reason it self doth teach it that we must distinguish betweē the sentence of excommunication and betvveen the execution thereof as betvveen the sentence of death of leprosie or the like and betvveen the execution follovving thereupon Novv in Israel the Elders in causes of death the Priests in case of Leprosie had a rightfull povver to give out the sentence of death and of leprosie and the like according to the lavv of God vvithout asking the peoples consent yea and though it should have been vvithout and against the consent of the people vvhom they call here the bodie of the Congregation Deu. 1.16 and 17 8-12 and 24.8 with 2 Chron. 26 16-20 Levit. 13. c. And vvhen the Elders and Priests had so pronounced the sentence according to the vvord of God and dutie of their office then vvas it for the people to performe the execution accordingly as may be seen in the Scriptures aforesaid many other the like Thus also the Elders may now by vertue dutie of their Office give out the sentence of excomunicatiō according to the lavv of God and the people should accordingly put it in execution by avoyding the excōmmunicated persons till they repent c. Or if any of the people can except against the Elders proceeding therein they are to be heard as in the foresaid Treatise upon Mat. 18 17. I have vvrittē heretofore VVhere note further hovv in that Treatise it is often mentioned particularly in our agreement about the understāding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17 that we should alway understand and observe these things according as in Israel in the due proportion perpetuall equitie thereof and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their assent or any right that doth apperteyne unto them by the word of God but to doe all things accōrding to the rules prescribed therein c. And here let me then aske of this people thus divided hereabout first vvhether in Israel the Lord abridged the people of their right libertie any way in that by his word the Elders and Priests might admonish sinners give sentence of death and leprosie and the like things vvithout asking or taking the peoples consent thereunto Secondly vvhether the people have any more right and authoritie in the Churches government novv then the people of Israel had in those dayes Thirdly vvhether the people of Israel vvere not kings priests even a kingdome of priests and a holie nation asvvel as the Christian people are now Exod. 19 5 6. Psal 149.1 c. with 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 1.6 Fourthly vvhether the Churches power vvhich the Lord hath given unto it be not a ministeriall povver onely Fiftly vvhether the Elders povver be not ministeriall under the Lord in and for the Church so as it is the Lords primarily the Churches secondarily and the Officers ministerially or instrumentally for the Lord the Church vvhose Officers they are and that therefore there is no vveight in their Objections about the Elders povver as if it vvere not the Churches and that vvhich perteyneth to the bodie of the Congregation but that in deed it is the Churches so to be ministred by the Officers vvhom the Lord hath set in his Church to minister in his name for the Churches use and benefit and that they vvhich oppugne the Officers herein doe not onely oppose against them but even against the Lord the Church for which they vvould seem so much to plead And finally vvhether the Opposites in the Churches government as the Anabaptists in the Sacraments vvould not make us aliens from the common vvealth of Israel that so there should not be one bodie of them and us one Lord over them and us one sayth of theirs and ours c as the Apostle hath taught us Ephes 2 12-22 and 3 6. and 4.4 c. VVhich how absurd and ungodly it vvere to hold vve vvish they may in time vvel consider with them selves afore moe errors and further evils grovve upon them then yet are Furthermore let me also aske vvhy they doe not here speak of themselves asvvell as of us vvhat they pleaded to be the Church spoken of Mat. 18.17 as namely hovv some of thē taught publikly that it is the whole Church Congregation alledging to that end Num. 15.33 27.2 and 35.12 as also that Christ in this place speaketh of the kingdome of heaven Mat. 18.1 c. and that therfore we are to understand it of the whole Church How some also pleaded that it must be understood of men women children that can sorrovve rejoyce vvith others pressing to this purpose that vvhich Paul speaks of the bodie and parts thereof sorrovving and
Scriptures thus alledged by them The other is a thing vvhich M. Ainsvv hath vvel observed about Idolatrie that it is a sinne which cleaveth fast to all flesh Arrowe against Idol ch 2 p. 23. c. so as the best in the world doe easily fall into it doe take pleasure in it and are hardly drawen from it An example vvhereof may be seen in the people aforesaid vvho being caryed vvith the love of their errour about the matter spoken of vvould chuse bondage afore libertie yea and a bondage accompanyed vvith many other evils ensuing upon men vvomen and children rather then they vvould be dravven from the errour and Idol set up in their heart But I hope their children if not themselves vvill in time grovv vviser hovv ever in other things it be too common that the children remember their fathers altars and Idols as the Prophet Ieremiah said of the people in his dayes Ier. 17.2 Let me also about the matters themselves concerning the greater part of the people the vvhole Congregation or bodie thereof the men vvomen and children of yeares pleaded to be the Church spoken of Mat. 18 17. desire to knovv by vvhat Scriptures they vvill novv manifest and confirme it to such as are othervvise mynded If they speak of 1 Cor. 5 chap. as some doe that is purposely handled in the treatise on Mat. 18.17 as also if the vvomen and children should in a controversie be the greater part whether then they be the Church there spoken of have the Churches power and authoritie to excommunicate the men and vvhether these persons divided not them selves from the Church vvhen they left us seeing vve vvere the greater number both of the Elders and people vvhom they departed from Also vvhether the Elders be of the bodie of the Congregation vvhereof they speak or not for here they seeme to make an opposition betvveen the bodie of the Congregation and the Eldership And if they be vvhat place they have in the bodie vvhether a superiour or inferiour place And vvhether in the Congregation and presence of them the vvomen and children have authoritie by vertue of that rule Mat. 18.17 to examine rebuke and admonish their husbands parents masters being there dealt vvithall for sinne seeing the Church is told and the vvomen and children are of the Church and they that are of the Church there spoken of may examine admonish are to be heard obeyed c. Neyther let them thinke much that I propound such questipns or that I speak thus about vvomen and children c. For they knovv that such assertions and pleading vve have had from them and that such opinions are among them And vve knovv that if they ansvver directly to the things here and before propounded the truth vvill better appear and the controversie be sooner ended between us And what they hold mainteyn concerning these things is needefull for us still to insist upon seeing that about the understanding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17 they have so dealt and left us as they have done Other things I vvill omit that might here also have their place and use noting this onely that it is a straunge extraordinarie case whē a controversie should so stand as all the Elders should be one vvay all the people another way And in extraordinarie cases the course and warrant from the vvord of God must accordingly be had But vvhat is this to the ordinarie maner of government in the Church vvhereof the question vvas among us vvhereabout it vvas particularly mentioned at the beginning that our reasoning should be Lastly vvhat vveight is there in this exception of theirs against our understanding of Mat. 18.17 more then might be against Israel of old vvho could understand such speaches of the Congregation of Elders vvithout impeaching any libertie of the people or falling into any errour against the truth But I have spoken hereof before and of this matter more largely then I purposed though yet not so largely as I might considering the point it self and hovv they have caryed themselves thereabout Novv I vvill come to the next Objection For the second vvhich concerneth excommunication by a people without officers I have in the foresaid Treatise vvritten particularly thereabout Treat on Mat. 18.17 vvhere also I have treated purposely and largely of the place of the Apologie vvhich they have here alledged so as that should first have ben ansvvered afore they had thus dealt as they have done especially seeing that there I desired ansvver confirmation of that opinion vvriting in this sort about it Where finde we in the Scriptures that God hath thus laid upon the people without Officers to excommunicate Where is the precept for it Which be the examples of it Or what are the grounds requiring and bearing it out In the same place also I noted that in the Scriptures we may observe not onely sundry exāples shewing how it hath ben done by the Lord himself and by his ministers and Officers but also divers ordinances grounds directing and warranting us to doe likewise The particulars vvhereof see in that Treatise vvith divers other considerations and reasons thereabout VVhich might have caused them eyther to ansvver us or at least as there is noted to consider vvith themselves how the Churches excommunication can be administred by any but such as are the Lords and the Churches Officers and Overseers and how people without Officers can chalendge to themselves the ministration of this any more then of the Sacraments c. And besides you may percēive both by our churches estate and by particular note set dovvn in the said Treatise that our controversie vvas about a Church established with Officers and that it vvas before our parting agreed among us to leave the things concerning people without Officers to further consideration To vvhich also I do still referre it Onely where he sayth here that our doctrine overthrowes the constitution of our Church which was gathered and constituted by Christians without Officers receiving in the repentant and casting out the disobedient c. I vvill hereupon note a fevve things briefly to shevve the errour and vveaknes of their exception herein And first omitting vvhat is sayd before it vvere vvorth the knovving by vvhom or by vvhat Church the first man or first tvvo men of this Church whereof they speak vvere received in and by what povver Secondly it is knovven and not to be forgotten Eph. 4.4.5 1 Cor. 10.1 2. and 12 13. Act. 2.41.42 that by our baptisme as also by accord in the truth vve are bound to communion in any thing lavvfull as God giveth occasion opportunitie thereunto vvhich thing vvas heretofore shewed unto them though yet they have not learned it as they should Thirdly it is also playne and uudenyable that to chuse or give voyces in election is not a part of governement or a dutie peculiar to the governours of the Church but an interest
povver right and libertie that the saincts and people out of Office have and should use in elections not onely at first when they have no Officers but alvvayes after in other elections also even vvhen they have Officers over them Lastly seeing our doctrine overthrovveth not the constitution of the church of Israel afore Christ nor of the primitive Churches after Christ it caÌ„ not therefore overthrovv the constitution of our Church or of any other that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apostles Prophets Iesus Christ himself being the head corner stone Ephess 2 19 20. By all vvhich you may see hovv vayne frivolous this their exception is To which may be referred the first sixt and seventh of the Objections in the printed copie And so touching them observe the things spoken of here and in the foresaid Treatise upon Mat. 18.17 For the third it being of much like nature vvith the second before the same ansvver that is there given may suffice for it Yet thus much I vvill acquaint you vvith further that the like thing being objected here against me and vvritten of unto us from the church at Leyden I gave this ansvver unto it viz that the Church may excommunicate any Officer deserving it as well as any other member Also that if all the Officers doe joyntly transgresse and so persist then the Church which did chuse them may also depose and refuse them for beeing their Officers any longer may separate themselues from them But that the people may excommunicate all their Officers or whole Eldership together I desired to see it shewed and warranted from the word of God This vvas then ansvvered sent froÌ„ hence in a generall letter to the church at Leyden as is knovven unto them and vvas by Mr. Ainsw himself also subscribed at that time for my ansvver hereunto hovvsoever novv they speake not of it So far as chusing reacheth which being not an action of government may be done by people out of office so far also may the refusing goe And vvhatsoever in extraordinarie cases is attempted further must be approved by the vvord of God that so it may be admitted And novv for the exception it self vvhich is here the third but in the printed copie is the first note these things moreover concerning it that the particulars of the 23 Article of our Confession here alledged being found true in the Churches of Israel before Christ and of the Gentiles since Christ the exception made hereabout can not be of vvaight against this or any other Church established according to the vvord of God as those vvere but must be also against those churches vvithall For which see consider the Scriptures alledged in the Confession for confirmation thereof And observe here also whether it can be shewed by those or any other Scriptures that any in Israel or in the primitive Churches did ordeyne Officers or depose or excomunicate eyther theÌ„ or any vvicked persons deserving it but such as vvere Governours and Officers among them Which scripture vve have indeed thus alledged heretofore If any insist upon Numb 8.9.10 which of all other places is the likest or onely like to be objected because there it is sayd the children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites then note also further that by this phrase of speach of the children of Israel and other such speaches of the men of Israel the tribes of Israel and the like in the Scriptures are the Elders of Israel often meant understood As for example in another the like case they vvhich are called the Elders of Israel Lev. 9.1 are in the same chapter called the children of Israel Lev. 9.3 where the Septuagint have in both places alike the Senate or Eldership of Israel As also Iosh 7.23 where the Hebrevv hath the children of Israel the Greek translation hath the Elders of Israel And verie reason it self teacheth so to understand it For othervvise hovv should so many hundred thousand of Israel as then vvere of the people eyther at once heare or doe the things there spoken of And if it be sayd some did it for the rest of Israel then I aske first vvho those some vvere but the Elders vvhom Israel novv had Exo. 3.16 and 4.29 Lev. 9.1 c. and secondly under vvhom they did it but under the Lord vvho set them over the people to minister governe in his stead Exod. 20 12. Num. 11 16-30 Deu. 1 9-18 and 16.18 and 17 12. and 19 12.17 c. So likevvise they vvhich are called the men of Israel Ios 9 6 7 14. are in the same chapter called the Princes of the Congregation Ios 9 15 18 19 21. And they vvhich are called the tribes of Israel 2 Sam. 7.7 are othervvhere called the Iudges of Israel 1 Chron. 17.6 In like maner that vvhich is sometimes said to be done by the people Exod. 20.18 19. 1 Sam. 8.7 10 19 21. is othervvhere said to be done by the Elders Deut. 5.23 1 Sam. 8 4. In vvhich places actions common reason also teacheth so to understand the speaches as vvas shevved before And in like sort may be observed hovv the vvord Church or Congregation is divers times used for the Assemblie or Congregation of Elders Num. 35 12 24 25 29. with Deut. 19 11.13.16.17 and 31.28.30 Iosh 20.4.5.6 Psal 82.1 1 Chron. 29.1.6 with 28.1 c. as is noted in the other Treatise on Mat. 18.17 And many such Synechdochicall speaches vvhere the name of the vvhole is given to a part may be observed in the Scriptures VVhich vvhiles men vvill needs understand according to the letter they grow into many errours some one vvaie some another as others also doe in other things mistaking figurative speaches as if they were spoken and should be understood literally And thus much I thought to vvrite further hereabout And this also that they should better observe the clauses particularly expressed in the article spoken of Conf. art 23. as namely that the electing and ordeyning of the Officers is to be according to the rules in Gods word prescribed that deposition likevvise is to be by due order and that the cutting off by excommunication must be done orderly VVhich clauses as they bynde us to shew by the Scriptures that the people not being in office may chuse their Officers as is proved both there and in the Apologie heere cited pag. 46.47 so doe they also binde these persons thus making exception to shevv out of the vvord of God like rules practise or vvarrant of ordination deposition and excommunicatioÌ„ ministred and performed by pâ—ople out of office VVhich till they doe vvhat vveight or use is there of their exceptions save that it turnes to be a meanes for the truth to be better found out and more cleared from tyme to tyme. For the fourth it is of like nature vvith the second and third herebefore vvhere therefore see the ansvvers And if they vvould here imply a
particular matter concerning one of our Ministers about imposition of hands that is a point also left to further consideratioÌ„ among us beside that it fell out since their departing from us and therefore perteynes not to the plea about their division vvhich vvas made before Yet notvvithstanding the ansvver vvhich follovves here to their fift and next exception will both give some light to the poynt it self and shew good reason of the needfull discussing thereof which you shall doe well therefore to consider of as follovveth But first by occasion of that which is printed I will here annexe a litle more For now they doe in particular expresse this matter concerning one that was minister in the Church of England and is since chosen Teacher of this Church and received among us vvithout any nevve imposition of hands So novv refer hither to this Objection the third and fift in the copie that is printed Touching which let me first signify that our testimonie against the Antichristian hierarchie of the man of sinne treated of in the Confession is not by us reversed or vveakned any way but novv is rather more sound and stronger also then it vvas hitherto inasmuch as it is more firmely grounded not onely against the apostasie of Antichrist but also against the errours confusion of the Anabaptists whereabout we have ben encumbred not a litle For the Anabaptists holding that Antichrist had utterly destroyed all Gods ordinances so that there vvas not so much as true Baptisme râ—â—eyned and had among them thereupon they began to baptise theÌ„ selves againe VVhose errours vvhiles vve confuted as by our books published thereabout may appeare and vvhiles some of them objected that vve should no more reteyne the Baptisme then the ministerie there received vve had thereuppon just occasion given us to consider thereof And so vveighing vvith our selves that one mayne and speciall reason against rebaptization is because Baptisme is an ordinance of God vvhich vvas had in the Church of Rome before she fell into apostasie and hath been there continewed ever since the Apostles tymes hovvever it be commingled among them vvith many corruptions inventions of their own vve began to consider vvhether the like might not be observed and sayd concerning Imposition of hands that it vvas had from the Apostles in the Church of Rome before her apostasie is there continued to this daye though mixed vvith many pollutions and devises of their ovvne And entring into consideration thereof vve observed these things among other about it 1. That Imposition of hands is of God and not an invention of man not a post or threshold first brought by Antichrist into the Temple of God but had therein afore Antichrist sate there 2. That baptisme and imposition of hands are joyned together among the principles of the foundation spokeÌ„ of Heb. 6 2. which vve thought therefore should in this behalf be vvell regarded 3. That imposition of hands is in the Church of Rome still given to the Office of ministerie in the name of the Lord as they doe also still administer baptisme 4. That vve found not eyther precept example or ground in the Scripture binding us to the repetition thereof 5. That the Priests Levites in Israel becoming uncleane vvhen aftervvard they vvere cleansed reteyned still their places of being Priests and Levites And that the children of the Priests and Levites succeding after them did minister vvithout a nevv anoynting or nevv impositioÌ„ of hands Yea that in the case of Idolatrie the Levites repenting kept their function the Priests also being onely debarred from the altar but still remayning Priests both doing such duties and enjoying such benefits thereof as the other Israelites might not no nor the Levites but in cases of necessitie Levit. 22 1-9 and Ezech. 44 10-14 2 King 23.9 with Lev. 21. and 24 9. Mat. 12 4.6 That in the Scriptures vvefinde how some Officers vvere admitted vvith it some vvithout it As about the Levites may be observed and about the Apostles also that Paul and Barnabas had imposition of hands vvhich we read not that the other Apostles had Act. 13 1 2 3.7 That some Churches hold it not of necessitie to be had That the Church of Scotland as we heare doth not use it at all but in stead thereof give the right hand of fellovvship That the first ministers and officers of the Dutch and French reformed Churches had no imposition of hands because at their first comming into order they had no Elders to impose hands That the ruling Elders and Deacons at this daye have no imposition of hands among them as vve understand That neyther the apostate nor the reformed Churches repeat it to the ministers vvhen they goe froÌ„ one Congregation to another among them 8. And it may also be observed that thus vve shevv the keeping of communion vvith all other Christians Churches what in us is as vve doe also by reteyning our baptisme and any other truths ordinances of God had among theÌ„ which still vve keep purging them onely from the corruptions wherewith they are defiled among them Novv vvhen upon our occasions divers things hereabout vvere observed among us vve thought it best to stay and consider further thereof knovving that if vve finde it to be such as ought to be done vve can doe it at any tyme or if it be othervvise that then this course vvhich vve took is the best Other reasons vve considered also on the other hand vvhich I need not here mention But seeing vve found that it was even froÌ„ the Apostles times in the church of Rome long before she became apostate as baptisme vvas and that the repeating of it among us and not regarding the having of it there is a meanes to strengtheÌ„ the Anabaptists in their errours and observing vvithall such coÌ„siderations about it as are here before related we stayed our selves and rested in this that the Church did chuse him into office and that vve did by prayer commend him unto God for his grace and assistance in the ministration thereof VVhich vve did vvithout imposition of hands at that tyme as both our selves had before done at our first growing into order and as the French and Dutch Churches also did when they first began reformation among them VVhereabout if any sounder and better course be shewed hereafter at any tyme we can then proceed further as there shal be cause In the meane tyme let it here be observed hovv these that thus object and their partakers can all of them hold that the people having no office may excommunicate and some of theÌ„ that they may also minister the Sacraments and yet can except against such as are in office if they doe but make questioÌ„ of a ceremonie or any thing thereabout And lastly let themselves consider hovv the Anabaptists object against us that vve receive such for members of our Church as were baptized by the Prelates and Priests in apostate Churches so as
omit divers things needful to be knowē and remembred As first vvhat the thing it self is that was propounded by us namely that for such as could not be content with protestation peaceably to walke with eyther Church at Leyden or here it should be free for them to goe from the one Church and Pastor to the other so as there were no other cause lying against them This vvas in deed propounded by my self having much thought and considered vvhat I could of any lavvfull meanes by vvhich we might come to some good end and agreement after our so long and lamentable troubles and contentions as vve had ben exercised withall VVhich when I had propounded they of Leyden answered that they were glad to hear of such a motion litle thinking that we had ben so inclyning to peace and agreement This to my remēbrance was the effect of the things that passed here about which if they had thought they should haue caryed themselues otherwise towards us then they had done And for the thing it self that they would consider of it with their Church and if eyther they or we mynded otherwise by the word of God that we should signify it VVhich caution being thus spoken of by them my self then said as I remember that I had thought so to haue spoken also concerning it but had forgottē when I spake to mention it And so then it vvas minded of us both to be considered of and prosequuted vvith this condition and limitation of being found lawfull by the word of God And let this for hereafter be still remembred because it vvill cleare all the question about this matter Secondly at the first treating of this matter between us the Officers of the Church of Leyden then present did so conceiue it as that our people which would not walk with this Church as is aforesaid should goe and remayne vvith them at Leyden VVhich some of them here observing excepting against it in respect of their meanes of living had here c. they were answered by them of Leyden that they must be cōtented to suffer or beare the crosse of Christ vvith them or to such effect Then also concerning the course aforesaid there vvas noted a double consideration about it The one about the doing of it so The later is the poynt which they doe so much urge as to live and remayne with the other Church whither they should goe The other about the doing of it so as that having once gone and joyned thewselues to the other Church they might then returne agayne to the towne where they lived before and there live apart from the Church whereof they had formerly ben And hereupon having speach about these tvvo courses the first vvas sooner conceired of and generally liked of all the latter vvas lesse conceived of and more called in question as aftervvard did appeare though for myne ovvn part I did my self so minde and like of it at that time And vvhen some among us propounded that such as vvent from us to Leyden and joyned to that Church should not be dismissed back by them againe to live apart from us in this tovvne both my self and the Elders of the other Church to my remembrance answered that this matter vvould concerne that Church to which they should joyne to look unto and so vvas to be left unto them But afterward considering yet further of the lavvfulnes of such dismission thither hither agayne I shewed my minde herein to be altered divers reasons thereabout Of vvhich I shall speak hereafter vvhen I come to that matter Thirdly vvhen the matters aforesaid vvhich vve had propounded vvere communicated vvith the Church at Leyden and their Elders returned hither againe they signifyed that these things came sodainly upō their Church yet for the present as they could in that tyme cōsider thereof they liked vvell of it or to such effect So now againe at this tyme we had more speach together thereabout The former of the tvvo courses as I said before vvas generally vvell approved and consented unto The latter vvas more doubted of and more question made about it in the end more more disliked by divers the more that it was perceived to be the brethrens purpose so to doe And this most appeared the next morning when the likelyhood of agreement that vvas the night before was then so changed upō further reasoning and consideration thereof as we could not accord therabout And so the Officers of the other Church signifying that they had great occasion to returne home and could then no longer stay departed and said it vvould be heavie to their Church to heare that the things vvere come to no better issue between us Yet vvhen they were gone we still continued speach among our selues about these things being sorie that they stood thus and that no better tidings should be caried to the other Church And then upon some speach so had together as vve could in that short time we came to this issue that we thought it best to agree upon the matter aforesaid in this sort that whatsoever blame should follovve hereupon if our people vvere by them of Leyden dismissed to liue here apart from us in this citie it should lye upon them and vve be free of it And so thereupon we presently sent three vvith this message after the brethren of Leyden if they could overtake them in tyme to signifie thus much unto them that they might also signifie it unto their Church And this I thinke is the agreement spoken of VVhich vvhen it vvas in this manner agreed upon some of the brethren present there being then but a sevv at that tyme came to the Elders shewing hovv they thought it needfull that this should be spoken of the Lords day after others say to this day they never consented unto it and some that they said then it vvas unlavvfull And these men thē selues it may be vvould be loth to stand to their ovvn positions about it that in a controversie the greater part should be the Church whether the Elders be vvith them or against them and that the matters of sinne and question touching the brethren should be heard and ended on the Lords day But I vvill proceede on to other matters that follovved aftervvard about these things Fourthly vvhiles things stood thus mōg us we had the Lords day following speach hereabout againe at vvhich tyme there vvas a nevv motion made for an other course to be taken by which we might keep together rather then to part asunder according to the other course spoken of VVhich being then propounded and not agreed upon vvas left to further consideration And so that week vvee wrote to the Church of Leyden thereabout By vvhich occasion after the aforesaid treating of these things had by vvord of mouth there passed also some letters betvveen us concerning them VVhich although in divers respects vve could be willing to keep among our selues yet considering in vvhat
children such of them as are able to rejoyce and sorrovve with others And vve note this to be of telling men women and children in their ovvne persons because otherwise it is graunted that the Congregation is told according to order and rules of governement in the telling of the Elders And here it is to be remembred hovv it hath often ben signifyed that vvhether wee understand those words of telling the Church thus Tell the Congregation to weet according to the rules and order of governement appointed by God in his word Note here that the Elders sit in a publick place vvhere all that vvill may come and be present c. or thus Tell the Congregation of Elders not hindring or infringing any right or libertie of the brethren these come both to one end being rightly understood And about these things haue ben alledged these the like Scriptures Mat. 18 17. cōpared with Mat. 5 22. Deu. 21 18-20 Num. 35 12 24.25 with Deu. 19 11-18 Iosh 20 4-6 1 Sam. 2 25. Psal 82 1. Prov. 26 26. in the LXX compared with the Original Deut. 1 9-17 and 16 18. and 17 9-12 and 25 7 8 9 with Ruth 4 1-11 2 Chron. 19 5-11 Act. 6 11-13 and 20 17 18. Rom. 12 4-8 Luk. 12 42. 1 Cor. 4 1 2. and 5. chap. with Lev. 20 11. and Deut. 17 4-7 1 Cor. 6 1-5 12 28. 1 Thes 5 12-14 1 Tim. 3 5. and 5 17-21 Heb. 13 17. 1 Pet. 5 1-4 Secondly vve haue erred in that we haue so understood those vvords Tell the Church if he heare not the Church c. that the partie offending should not vvithout taking consent of the people be admonished by the Elders wherupon to proceed against him And that the sinner vvas not to be excommunicated Viz. the admonition so giuen by the Elders as is afore sayd for despising the admonition given by the Elders onely Touching vvhich vve haue agreed heretofore that vve erred from these Scriptures 2 Chron. 19 8.9.10 and 1 Thes 5 12. compared with Deut. 17 8-12 c. And here agayne it is to be remembred hovv it hath ben shevved that the speaches of telling the Elders and of the casting out of persons for despising the admonition given by the Elders onely are to be understood in respect of ministration and governement committed unto them by Christ and the Church and not so to be taken as to exclude the Church or Christ the head for vvhom they doe administer but that vve should alvvay understand obserue these things according as in Israel in the due proportion and perpetuall equitie thereof and according to the Scriptures here alledged in this and the other particular aforesayd and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their assent or any right that doth apperteyne unto thē by the vvord of God but to doe all things according to the rules prescribed therein as before hath ben shevved To vvhich ende likevvise it is to be remembred how it hath ben often signified and declared that the povver of the holy things of God given to the Church is properly and primarily Christs secundarily and by communication the Churches instrumentally and ministerially the Officers vvho are the Ministers of Christ and the Church And that thus vve would still be understood As also that thus the admonition being given as is aforesayd may be sayd to be the admonition of Christ of the Church of the Elders in divers respects according as is sayd before Thirdly cōcerning that rule in general we have had this errour among us that it hath ben understood to be a newe rule for the time of the Gospel which Israel had not VVhereabout may be considered cōpared together these and the like Scriptures as followeth Mat. 18.15 with Lev. 19 17. Prov. 25.9.10 Also Mat. 18.16 with Deu. 19.15 and 17.6 Ioh. 8 17. 2 Cor. 13 1. And Mat. 18 17. with Mat. 5.22 Deut. 21.18 19 20. Numb 35 12-30 with Deut. 19 12-17 c. together with the other Scriptures mentioned here before in the other particulars as in them may be seen And for all these things if any can shew us better or othervvise by the vvord of God vve shall God willing be readie to yeeld unto it THus vvas the Churches agreement about these things VVhere note that the first of these about admonition by the Elders was sooner agreed upon there being but fevv in respect that excepted and stood against it vvhen some of the chief of them yeelded unto it The latter about our practise understanding of Mat. 18 17. was verie long debated among us and after much reasoning had thereabout vve vvere often and earnestly urged by the Opposites to giue sentence and come to an yssue about it So in the end vve agreed concerning it as here before is set dovvne VVhich vvhen vve had done they signifyed their dissent and that they could no longer vvalke vvith us practising accordingly And so aftervvard they vvent avvay and left us And this is the very cause of their departing from us vvhatsoever other thing be alledged by them or any other thereabout And this I intreat the Reader vvell to obserue because othervvise reading their foresayd differences and objections in the letter and printed copie vvhereabout they haue busied themselues so much he may take them for causes of their separation which in deed vvere not And whereas thus it pleaseth thē to trouble mens mindes with their positions and intend in the setting of thē dovvne to cause disgrace to this poor Church which they so unjustly haue left as if we had apostated and left the auncient sayth it shall be good for them to try and warrant those their positions and differences as also their separation from us by the touchstone of the vvord of God as now by the answer thereunto given they are occasioned to doe And vvithall let them shew out of the Scripture hovv it can be vvarranted that a minister vvho hath not himself received true baptisme may administer the Lords Supper or that a people not having true baptisme may receive the Lords supper as these haue done seeing themselues deny the baptisme of the Church of Rome By this opiniō the Martyrs of later yeeres had not true baptisme c. so consequently of other Churches in Apostasie to be true baptisme If the example of Christ be considered vvho first instituted and ministred the Lords supper himself he had received true baptisme before Mat. 3 16. with 26.26.27.28 The like may be observed about his Apostles namely about Paul vvho vvas first baptised afore he received or administred the Lords supper Act. 9.18 with 20.11 and so in others from time to time By vvhich themselues may perceiue vvhat a continuall profanation of Gods holy things is among them that so minister or receiue not having true baptisme and the Reader may discerne hovv needfull it had ben for them better to haue thought of their positions and objections