Call the booke howe you will so the wordes bee there Phi. There shall you finde them Theo. There we finde them not Phi. What Prints haue you Theo. Prints enow Alopecius at Cullen Heruagius at Basill Langelier at Paris Crinitus at Antuerp Gryphius at Lions Manutius at Rome In all these and diuerse others we finde no such wordis Phi. In deede I confesse the wordes were wanting till Pamelius a Canon of Bruges found them in an old written copie lying in the Abbay of Cambron In his edition printed at Antuerp by Stelsius you shall finde them Theo. And thinke you Philander that all other copies both printed written lacking those words Pamelius did wel to put them to Cyprians text Phi. He laid them down as he found them written in the copie which is kept at Cambron Theo. As though the blinde Abbay of Cambron were of greater credit authoritie than all the Churches and Libraries of Christendom Phi. I say not so Theo. What else do you say when you cite these words for Cyprians which no copie printed nor written hath besides that of Cambron There haue trauelled in the correcting setting forth of Cyprian at sundry times men of your owne religion not a few namely Remboltus Canchius Costerius Erasmus Grauius Manutius Morelius euerie one of these for their seuerall editions searching farre and neere and vsing the best written copies that coulde be gotten or heard of and they all agree that no such wordes are founde in their copies yea Pamelius himselfe hauing as hee confesseth the sight and helpe of eight other written copies from diuerse places founde these wordes in none but in Cambron copie Since then either Cambron copie must be corrupt or an infinite number of other written copies that haue beene viewed by these learned men of your owne side and are yet extant in diuerse Abbayes and Churches obedient to the See of Rome at this houre say your selfe in reason whether we ought to beleeue your Cambron copie before all the copies that haue beene perused and are yet remaining in Europe Phi. That were much but how could this copie be corrupted Theo. What a question that is How could whole books be thrust into the workes of Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Austen others ly forged vnder their names not in one or two but in the most part of the Abbayes and auncient libraries of the West Church Your Monkes and Friers that were so skilfull in committing these manifold forgeries were not to seeke how to corrupt your Cambron copie Phi. It helpeth Pamelius very much that Gratian 400. yeares agoe cited the very same words as out of Cyprian Theo. Gratian might be deceiued by the same or some other false copie as wel as Pamelius of al men Gratian him selfe is most corrupt in alleadging the Fathers but what if Gratian be forged as wel as Cyprian Phi. Nay then al shal be forged that liketh not you Theo. They that ventered on Cyprian others would neuer sticke to frame Gratian to their purpose Phi. This is but your suspicion Theo. Yes I haue some reason to chalenge this in your Canon law for a corruption The very same place of Cyprian is elsewhere alleaged at large by Gratian in his decrees where we find no such words and therefore this or that must needes be forged Againe â—ohannes Seneca who liued seuen skore yeares after Gratian ouer-skippâ—â—h this place without any glosse as not finding it in the decrees extant in his time Phi. You be deceaued there is a glosse vppon this place Theo. I am not deceaued there is none Looke to the lesser volume of your decrees printed by Iohn Petit and Thielman Keruer and you shall see there is none And he that in the bigger volume of your decrees thinking to preuent this obiection set a certaine glosse to the chapter Qui Cathedram shewed himselfe not to be his crafts maister for he grossely mistaking the wordes that follow Episcopi verò which are Gratians thinking them to be Cyprians put the summe of Gratians words as a glosse to Cyprians text which is nothing neare and so betrayeth him a willing but no skilful forgerer Last of all the relatiue that you most esteeme and I most withstand super quam on which chayre the Church is built is contrarie to the plaine wordes of Cyprian not many lines before cited by Gratian and confessed by Pamelius to be fouÌ„d in his Cambron copie super vnum illum edificat Ecclesiam vppon him alone meaning Peter Christ buildeth his Church So that either you must mend your booke and reade super queÌ„ on whom the Church is built or els make Cyprian so forgetful that with in eight lines he contradicteth himselfe refuteth his former saying Phi. May not the Church bee built on him and his successours Theo. If Peter alone were chosen by Christ to be the foundatioÌ„ that is the first stone that should be layed in the building of his Church how can that possibly bee extended to his successors Can you remoue Peter froÌ„ the foundation where Christ laied him not do him wrong Or can you change the foundation and not shake the building of the Church Phi. You tooke the foundation I perceaue for the first beginning Theo. And what call you that which is first layed in the buylding of an house but the foundation Phi. Did Cyprian meane so Theo. Cyprian expresseth his meanyng in this sort Though Christ after his resurrection gaue all his Apostles equall power yet for the declaratioÌ„ of vnitie with his owne voyce and autoritie did he dispose the originall of that vnitie to beginne in one which was Peter The rest of the Apostles were the selfesame that Peter was endewed with like fellowship of honor and power but the first beginning came from oâ—e that is Christ chose Peter alone to be the original or first beginning of his Church Now this is proper to Peters person to be the first Stone that was laied in â—he foundation of the Church and can not be deriued from him to his successour Phi. That priuilege died with Peter vnlesse it remayne in some successour Theo. Not so Peter as well after death as during life keepeth the same place which Christ gaue him in the building of his Church vnlesse you meane to exclude the Saincts cleane froÌ„ the Church of Christ. Phi. They be of the Church triumphant not militant Theo. And those be not two but one Church Ierusalem which is aboue is the mother of vs all Ye be now sayth Paul no more strangers and forreners but Citizens with the Saincts and of the howshold of God For you be come to the Citie of the Liuing God the heauenly Ierusalem and to the Church of the first borne written in heauen and to the spirits of iust men now made perfect Where you see the Saincts in heaueÌ„ be not remoued from the Church of God but we
of both lawes no man gainesaying but all consenting it was concluded that it might bee lawfully canonically done Marke Philander a generall Councell called without a Pope and two Popes deposed in the same for not appearing before the councell al this good lawful by the iudgement of your owne Cardinals diuines and Canonists without contradiction and the Pope himselfe accepting this for a sacred and ecumenicall Councell Phi. I maruaile they went so farre Theo. Neuer maruaile at that The general Councel of Constance which followed fiue yeres after this went a great deale farther For when Iohn the 23 had by his letters called the Councell and sate amongst them in person as president and head of the Councell the first thing they did they began to sift him and notwithstanding he fled and left the Councel without Uicegerent or deputie yet they proceeded and not onely suspended but also depriued him for his notorious Symonie and detestable and vnhonest life and maners And likewise when by no meanes they could get Gregorie the 13 to resigne or appeare before them they condemned him for a schismatike and an heretike incorrigible and cut him off as a withered member And least you shoulde thinke this rashly or lightly done they solemnly decreed that the Pope was subiect to them and bound to obey them could not without their liking dissolue or remoue the councell and to that end they did frustrate and reuerse all that was done or might be done by the Pope present or absent to the preiudice and disturbance of their Synode Can you wish for playner examples that a Councell may proceede without and against the Bishoppe of Rome than these be Phi. I confesse they make me stagger and yet I dare not trust them vnlesse the Church receiue them Theo. And doth your church nowe mislike the proceedings at Constance and Pisa which the church of Rome then and all other nations by the witnes of your nearest frinds approued and followed as right and syncere Phi. I refuse not the Councels Theo. But doth your Church allow them for general Phi. I think she doth Theo. Keepe your thoughts to your self my question is whether your Church accept them or no Phi. Shee doth not reiect them Theo. Answer directly Doth your Church embrace thē or no Phi. Shee doth Theo. You might haue sayd so rather what needed this circumquaque to no purpose Then I inferre the doctrine of your church litle more than eight skore yeres agoe was that a Councell might ouerrule and depose the Pope and the same Councel be called and kept without him if he colluded or refused This is proued as well by the deedes of the councels of Constance Pisa which are alreadie shewed as by their decrees which are extant to this day What was concluded at Pisa by generall assent I sayde before what the Councell of Constance resolued in the like case their words shall declare First this holy Synode of Constance lawfully congregated in the holy Ghost being a general councel and representing the catholike church militant hath power immediate from Christ the which power euery one of what state or dignity soeuer he be yea the Pope himself is bound to obey in those things that concerne the faith general reformatiō of the church of God in the head mēbers Again it declareth that whosoeuer of any cōdition state or dignitie yea though he be Pope shal stubburnly refuse to obey the statutes ordinances precepts which this sacred Synode or any other general coūcel lawfully gathered hath already made or shal hereafter make concerning the premisses or any their appertinents except hee repent hee shal be driuen to condigne satisfaction and dewly punished and if need be other helps and remedies of law and Iustice vsed Item this holy Synode ordereth defineth determineth and declareth that if our sayd Lord the Pope being required for vnities sake by this sacred Councel do refuse to forsake his Popedome or defer the renouncing thereof longer than he should as then so now and as now so then shal be counted by al Christian faithful men to be depriued of his Popedome and al obedience withdrawen from him And not herewith content after they had cited and expected him they proceeded first to his suspention and after to his depriuation in this wise Because it plainly appeareth to vs that our Lord Pope Iohn the 23. from the time that hee was chosen to the Popedome til this present hath il gouerned that office to the publike slaunder of himselfe the Church and with his damnable life filthie manners hath giuen and yet giueth to others an example of loose life and moreouer hath by playne Symonical contracts sold Cathedral churches Monasteries Priories and other Ecclesiastical benifices therefore by this our sentence we pronounce and decree the said Lord Pope Iohn worthie to bee suspended from al administration of the Popedome both spiritual and temporal and wee doe suspend him and by this writing forbid him the execution thereof And we declare that for and vpon the premisses as being notorious we ought mind to proceed to the final reiecting him from the Popedome Wherefore we streitly prohibite you and euery one of you by the tenor of these presents in vertue of your obedience vnder payne to be counted fauourers of this schisme whether you bee kings Cardinals Patriarkes Archbishops bishops or whatsoeuer spiritual or secular persons that you nor any of you directly or indirectly hereafter obey regard or assist the sayd Pope Iohn being iustly suspended by vs from al intermedling with the Popes function c. The very same causes they repeat when they depriue him adding that his departure from the Citie and sacred generall Councell of Constance closely by night at an vnseasonable houre in strange and dissembled apparel was vnlawful and scandalous to the Church the Councel as troubling and hindering the peace and vnion of the Church nourishing an inueterate schisme and swaruing from his vowe promise oth therfore say they the sacred general councel of Constance by this definitiue sentence here cōprised in writing pronounceth adiudgeth and declareth the saide Pope Iohn as vnworthie vnprofitable and hurtful to be remoued depriued and deposed from the Popedome and from al spiritual and temporal administration therof therwithal doth remoue depriue and depose him declaring al christians of what state or degree or condition soeuer they be to stand quiet and discharged from his obedience and the fidelitie and oth which they haue made to him Inhibiting al the faithful of Christ hereafter so much as to call him Pope being now deposed from his office or to cleaue to him or any way to obey him as Pope Phi. You repeate this at large that the simple might see how solemnely the Pope was deposed Theo. I doe in deede and you must thinke they looke for your answere Phi. How hastie you be when you haue a little
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
Thus S. Cyril largely sheweth In the proposition of Caiphas there is contained a double sense one which Caiphas himselfe ment that it was expedient Christ should die by the hands of the Iewes lest the whole Nation should bee destroyed by the Romanes This was a false and wicked meaning comming from the lewd intention of Caiphas An other sense of the same proposition was intended by the holy Ghost that it was needfull that only Christ should die for the saluation of the whole world This Caiphas neither vnderstood nor ment yet his wordes were such as might fitly serue this sense of the holy Ghost For Caiphas himself as crueller readier to wickednes and bloodier than the rest encourageth others staggering at it by saying you perceaue nothing neither vnderstād you that it is expediēt the life of one man should be neglected for the whole coūtrie Phi. He spake this by the holy Ghost Theo. The diuell possessed his hart but the power of God restrained and ordered his speach Phi. Had he not the Spirit of Prophesie Theo. No more than Saul the bloudsucker had when he praied for Dauid whom hee sought to kill than Iudas the traytor had when he iustified his master and hanged himselfe yea than the Dyuell had when hee confessed and intreated the Sonne of God not to torment him before his time Phi. Why then doth S. Iohn giue this note of him that he was hie Priest for that yere Theo. S. Iohn noteth this that it pleased God so to temper the hie Priests wordes that where hee spake to hasten the death of our Sauiour his wordes sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning Phi. His tongue spake trueth though his hart did erre Theo. Satan poisoned his hart but GOD bridled his mouth Phi. Can not God doe the like to the Bishop of Rome Theo. No doubt he can but you must proue that he will Phi. If he did so to Caiphas much more will hee do it to the head of his Church Theo. How hangeth this geare together Hee did once so to Caiphas ergo hee will always doe the like where you list to haue it Phi. Not where we list but where he will Theo. That helpeth you litle God can do the like where whē he wil. What is that to the Bishop of Rome We doubt not of Gods power but smile at your folly which conclude this to be ordinarie in the Pope which was extraordinarie in Caiphas Phi. It was ordinarie in Caiphas by reason of his office and so saith S. Iohn The. S. Iohn doth not say it was ordinarie either in al hie priests or in Caiphas for Caiphas himself the very same yere as S. Matt. witnesseth iudicially pronounced our Sauiour to be a blasphemer which I hope you will not say came from the direction of the holy Ghost The hie Priest therefore did erre and that most hainously in iudgement and if this be al your hold the Pope may doe the like Phi. What may be is hard to determine But this we know the Pope did neuer yet erre sitting in his Tribunal to giue iudgement Theo. As though the place and not the Pope had assurance of trueth annexed vnto it What holines hath the Consistorie to safegard the iudge from error The promise of Christ was made to the person and not to the place Phi. To the person but sitting in iudgement Theo. Did Peter sitte in iudgement at that time when he denied his master Phi. Wee say not so Theo But that night was the promise made vnto him and that night performed in him when Peter poore man stoode warming himselfe amongst the manye and durst not answer the first interrogatorie that a silly wenche proposed to him And therefore Christ neuer spake of your Courtes nor Consistories but promised Peter to pardon his fault and to strengthen his faith lest hee should perseuere in that his Apostasie Phi. Had we no warrant for the Bishop of Rome that his faith shall not faile yet experience proueth this which we say to be true that he neuer erred iudicially that is sitting in his Consistorie Theo. What need we care where he sate so long as we bee sure he did erre What wrangling is this to aske for the place where and the time when the Pope spake the wordes Hee that may erre at home may likewise erre abroade If the Pope bee an heretike in his chamber hee can be no Catholike in his Consistorie Phi. Definitiue sentence he neuer gaue any against the faith Theo. What are his decretals but definitiue sentences And in those he hath erred Phi. Neuer Theo. The Decretal of Clemens which I before alleaged is altogether erronious They were two Decretall Epistles for the which Honorius was condemned The decretal of Vigilius which Liberatus remembreth is expresly against the faith Celestinus erred iudicially as your owne friendes confesse but you haue pared that Decretall as you haue done many others and left out the later part lest we should spie the fault Phi. Who told you so Theo. They that had no cause to belie you Alfonsus a great Patrone of your side sayth It is a thing manifest to al men that Pope Celestinus erred touching the mariage of the faithful when either part falleth into heresie Neither was this error of Celestinus such as ought to be imputed only to negligence so that we may say he erred as a priuate person and not as Pope because this decision of Celestinus was in the auncient Decratals which I my selfe haue seene and read Innocentius the third when he decided the case confessed that one of his predecessours had decreed otherwise which saith the gloze was Celestinus whose resolution was in the olde Decretals and it was euil that Celestinus sayd Alexander the 3. in a matter of great importance said Quamuis aliter a quibusdam praedecessoribus nostris sit aliquando iudicatum though some of our predecessours haue heretofore otherwise giuen iudgement Phi. These were matters of mariage and not of faith Theo. As though the seuering of those whom God hath ioyned did not touch the faith and so did some of these Popes and that iudicially by their contrarie Decrees Againe Nicolas the fourth sayth in his Decretal that To renounce the proprietie of all thinges not in special only but in common also is meritorious and holy which Christ taught by word and confirmed by example and the first foūders of the militant church deriued to others by the paterne of their doctrine life Iohn the 22. sayth it is hereticall to affirme that Christ his Apostles had nothing in speciall nor in common Phi. The next extrauagant reconcileth them both Theo. The Pope laboureth for life to shift off the matter at last commeth with a very iest De sola abdicatione proprietatis non iuris alterius in praefata declaratione