Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	militant_a	saint_n	triumphant_a	2,884	5	10.8885	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08562	A manuell or briefe volume of controuersies of religion betweene the Protestants and the Papists wherein the arguments of both sides are briefely set downe, and the aduersaries sophismes are plainely refuted. Written in Latine in a briefe and perspicuous method by Lucas Osiander, and now Englished with some additions and corrections.; Enchiridion controversiarum. English	Osiander, Lucas, 1571-1638.	1606 (1606)	STC 18880; ESTC S101908	177,466	558

to the examples not the praiers of the saints whether euer God doe vse to afflict his saints so but here is nothing of intercession 3 Moreouer our Aduersaries confesse that there was no in●ocatiō of saints in the olde Testament 11 If there shall be an Angell speaking for him one of a 1000. to declare the righteousnes of man the Lord will haue mercy vpō him Iob 33 23 24. Ans 1. The Translation is bad which should be thus according to the hebrue verity If there be an Angel or messenger or prophe● with him an interpreter one of a thousand who may declare vnto man his righteousnes thē he wil haue mercy on him c. that is if he who is corrected of the Lord for his sin be admonished by an Angel or a faithfull prophet of the Lord of his righteousnes either of the Lords how iustly he punisheth him or of his own what he ought to do to amend his life he shall obtaine mercy Therefore this place is nothing at all to the purpose 12 Intercessions are commanded and approued of in the Church 1 Tim 2 1. Iam 5 14 c Paul desireth intercession Rom 15 30 Colos 4 3. Abraham prayeth for Abimelech Gen 20 17. The Lord biddeth Iobs friends to require his intercession Iob 42 8. Ans 1 To argue from the liuing to the deade i● to make foure termes 2 If the Saints pray neuer so much in generall for the Church yet they are not therefore to bee worshipped And whereas it standeth with reason that the Angells do pray for the Paul did not worsl●p or p●ay ●nto the Ro●●ans church yet they would not suffer themselues to be worshipped Reuel 19 10. 22. 8. 9. 3. To desire the prayers of other men aliue and to pray vnto are things very different 4 And it is a farre different thing to ioyne the prayers of manie men together whose prayers they beeing aliue we desire that the praier may be the stronger that is I say much different frō directing our praiers vnto them 13 The Saints departed are sayd to be aequall vnto the Angels Luke 20 36 But Angels doo from God know things present and things to come Therefore the Saints know the same also and so they know our prayers Ans 1 Christ maketh the comparison betweene the blessed Saints and Angels not in respect of their offices but in respect of thei● glorification and state of life in the other World wherein they shall haue no need of Matrimonie It is then a fallacie from a thing spoken but in part and some respect to the same taken absolutely 2 The office of Angells is to bee ministring spirits by reason Heb 1 of this office God doth many times reueale to the Angels things present things to come but neither dooth hee reueale all things nor alwaies Now because this office is neuer in Scripture giuen to the blessed soules departed doubtlesse the cause of this speciall reuelation beeing denied both the necessity and certaintie of their knowing our prayers and so of our praying vnto them is denyed 14 Elizeus though hee was absent yet by the spirit knew the actions of Gehazi 2 King 5 26. So the Saints in the spirit may know our praiers and our estate Ans Of pure particles nothing followeth Elizeus being absent saw the actions of Gehazi Therefore the Saints heare and see al things that are done vpon earth What foolery is this For it is neuer sayde in the Scripture that the deade doe in the spirit know our affaires as Elizaeus being aliue did know the deedes of Gehazi and that in a miraculous manner 15 The Saints do pray for the Church Reuel 5 8. and 8 3. Answer 1. In that vision it is not certaine that the speach is onely of the prayers of the Saints departed but in generall the praiers of the Church are pourtraied out by the 24. Elders 2. It is graunted that the Church triumphant doth in generall pray for the militant but that they do in particular pray for certaine and definite members thereof the Scripture sayth nothing of it 3 Neither is there any mention made of inuocation of Saints in the places cited Reuel 5 8. 16 Yea but the Scripture doth grant adoration to Creatures in their kinde As Abraham adored the Hittits Gen 23 7. Iacob worshipped Esau Genesis 33 3. Nathan did the like to Dauid 1 King 1 23. and Salomo● the King vnto his mother 1 King 2 19 c. Answer The Phrase is there a hebrue Phrase whereby an externall ceremony bowing of the body and ciuil reuerence is described but we speake of the inward spirituall affection deuotion of the heart Heere are therefore foure termes 17 There is one that accuseth you euen Moses c. Iohn 5 45. Therefore the Saints departed deale for and against the liuing Answ It is a figure called Metonymia whereby Christ signifieth not the person of Moses but his lawe 18 The rich glutton commeth not with his prai●● to God but to Abraham as to a mediator Luk. 16 24. Ans 1 Right We must forsooth learn the inuocation of Saints from the desperate damned soules 2 There is much difference betweene the parable of the glutton and the popish inuocation of Saints 3. These praiers got the g●utton nothing and so may the Papists speede 19 Onias and Ieremias appeared praying for the people 2 Maccab 15 12 13 14. Answ 1. The booke is Apocriphall 2 There is rehearsed a deame not an article of Religion 3 Wee doe not reade that the Iewes did for this dreame pray vnto Onias and Ieremias but they prayed vnto God 20 Heare now the prayers of the deade Israelites Baru●h 3 4. Answ 1 The booke is not canonicall 2 Lyra expoundeth it not of the prayer of the dead after their death but of those praiers which the Saints being aliue did long since before their death ●owre out vnto God for the preseruation of the Church 21 Miracles haue beeen done yet are done at the inuocation of Sainrs Answer 1 Miracles alone without the Word of God especially if they be contrary to the Word of God are not fufficient as God admonisheth that we should not belieue miracles without the word Deuter 13. 2 3 2 And the comming of Antichrist shall bee with lying Miracles 2 Thes 2 9. Reuel 13 13. QVESTION 3. Our Aduersaries denie that in worshipping images they doe commit idolatrie but the contrarie is proued by these reasons Let them Grāmatically expound the word Idolatry and they shall be able to make none other thing of it but a worship and seruice of Idols but that they worship and serue Idols no man can denie that hath but once in all his life entred into the popish temples It is proued by experience For they prostrate themselues before Idols pray before them adorne them they dedicate offerings vnto them light candles sigh vnto them c. And they worship one image of one Saint for example of