that passeth by Each Saint hath a part as it happeneth as men are disposed or occasions are presented 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Foxe in the Fable Shee hath many addresses vnto many Mediators For Accesse and Audience For Dispatch and Riddance at Gods hands to bee heard and deliuered in time of Trouble few or none immediate To or By himselfe Many Mediators of Intercession onely For I say not For though shee be wise enough in confessing God the donor principall author I cannot I must not say that the Church of Rome denieth Call vpon mee to hold in good Obedience or in Diuinitie For Certainely Shee addresseth Te ad me Man vnto God vnto none but vnto God to be heard and deliuered by him alone out of tribulation in the Day of trouble as Author and Originall of all helpe and Grace deduced and deriued meerely wholly and totally from Him Freely professing willingly acknowledging as truely beleeuing as any doe or can doe whatsoeuer that Euery good gift and perfect giuing is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the worke of God and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sent of God It is true and must not bee denied The Romane Church in her Doctrine for and concerning Practise it is otherwise doth not impaire or impeach the Sure firme and fastest Meditation the Peculiar worke of Christ Iesus or appoint Propitiators in his place who alone as all sufficient in himselfe payed the price of our Redemption and made vp without assistants or Concurrents the alone absolute atonement by his Reall and perfect Satisfaction betwixt God and Man Willingly they acknowledge and professe together with vs that None but Christ none but Christ In Earth they haue none beside Him and in Heauen not any to bee compared to him who onely through the Dignitie of his Person and alsufficiencie of his Desert meritoriously obtaineth what wee can desire or what wee Call for at Gods hands It is false which is imputed if yet it bee imputed and layd vnto their Charge That they haue many Gods or many Lords That they Call vpon Saints as vpon God to helpe them That they mention not Christ but Saints in their Deuotions They doe not deny Call vpon mee In their Doctrine and Opinion Inuocation is peculiar vnto God alone as a part of that Eternall Morall dutie which man euer doth owe vnto God his Maker and Protector in all his wayes Inuocation I meane in a proper Sense it is Aduocation and Intercession onely which they giue vnto Saints which Act is sometime called Inuocation in a large extent as it passeth and is directed from man to them Their helpe with Dauid onely standeth in the Name of the Lord who hath made both Heauen and Earth For Gratiam gloriam say they dabit Dominus It is the Lord alone that Giueth because it is in his power to giue both Grace and Glorie Therefore the great Dictator of that side layeth downe this Proposition as resolued vpon on all hands by his Partie It is not lawfull to desire or request of the Saints that as Actors of Diuine good things and Benefits they grant vnto vs glory or grace or any other meanes vnto eternall happinesse For why Our helpe standeth in the Name of the Lord that hath made Heauen and Earth And he addeth That the Saints are no immediate Intercessors for vs with God but whatsoeuer they obtaine for vs at Gods hands that they doe obtaine by and through Christ And it is for ought I know the voyce of euery Romanist Non ipsi Sancti sed eorum Deus Dominus nobis est So it must not be imputed which is not deserued were they worse then they are It is a Sinne they say to belye the Deuill a Shame to charge men with what they are not guiltie of to make the breach bigger Being in this as shee is in other opinions somewhat 〈◊〉 us already too wide Concerning Saints departed thus they teach First that according vnto Scripture and Faith of the Church They liue and subsist in their better part That their Life is hidden in Christ with God whose Presence they now enioy in Glory in Heauen That there they rest from their Labours and magnifie his Mercies incessantly who hath sent such Redemption vnto their soules That there they forget not their brethren vpon Earth but remember the Church Militant vnto God And sure if there bee a Communion of Saints and a Fellowship betwixt those two maine parts of the Tolu◠the Church of the Redeemed by the blood of Iesus Triumphant in the Heauens and yet Militant heere in Earth Orant pro Nobis saltem in genere those that enioy the Fruit of their Labors now with God are not Forgetfull of their brethren behinde and not consummate in the Flesh I insist not on this it is not now questioned by the Opposites But farther they teach that the Saints in Heauen make also Particular Intercession for vs that is Some of them for some of vs here which is in my Opinion though no point of Faith for which I would burne yet true and certaine in all Credibilitie But how it is limitted or to bee enlarged how and in what sort and sense it is true may appeare more particularly vpon the Processe Thirdly that Saints and Holy Angels in Heauen may bee ioyntly or seuerally prayed vnto Many by many by one or some One by any one or by many which accordingly their People put in frequent practise Chaunting it euery where Ora pro me The Councell of Trent that Oracle of the Romane Faith and Religion resolueth thus Sanctos Orationes suas pro hominibus De◠offerre Bonum esse atque vtile suppliciter eos Inuocare Ad eorum Orationes opem auxiliumque confugere In some Generalities as their manner is leauing way and libertie for disputes abroad And in this point not better to be answered then by taking away the ambiguitie of the word Inuocation For better Euidence in this point the Question controuersed inter partes may be limitted or rather explained thus Inuocation as was touched is a word of ambiguous signification as most words are because there are more things then words Subsistances then names to Call them by It is taken specially for to Call vpon mee as him vpon whom we absolutely relye at least vltimatè in that kind It is also vsed for to Call vnto as to Helpes Assistants or Aduocates in suite when in Time of Trouble and Necessitie wee haue Cause to come and Call on God directing our Prayers euer primâ intentione vnto him When therefore wee talke of Inuocation of Saints and dispute concerning praying vnto Saints wee must vnderstand Inuocation so as directed vnto them onely as Assistants and Mediators onely of Intercession and therefore not to be Inuocated or Called vpon in the same sense and termes as God Almightie is the Author and Donor of euery good giuing nor to bee implored as Christ Iesus is the onely Mediator of Redemption and
successe discoursing of their deare affection to vs. say they as if this were questioned or to the purpose but they wish and will and what they can most readily procure quantum in ipsis as much as they can and they can doe much whatsoeuer in God may stead them or doe them good They loue vs indeed no question of that and so consequently according vnto the nature of loue in the effects thereof will and wish and seeke the good of those whom they loue Their loue is now greater being in Heauen vnto man then euer it was or could bee when and while they liued vpon Earth For Charitie is transcendent in those celestiall Citizens And therefore no question they pray for men vpon earth But how and for whom All Christians in generall their Brethren as yet in great tribulation the Church militant vpon the face of the Earth This they know the state of these and their necessities are knowen to them in Heauen and vpon knowledge they doe commiserate them and Commiseration procureth Intercession else were there no Communion of Saints no bond betwixt the militant and triumphant Church In specie for those Churches whereof themselues were parts noble and liuely members yet being in the flesh as more interessed there then otherwhere For if charitie bee ordinate here vpon earth diliguntur alieni magis proxiâ—â—i maximè proprij It cannot be imagined to bee disordinate it is not sure irregular in Heauen where order is most of all especially regarded as the Place and Persons where and by whom Gods will is performed so absolutly as that by the Doctor of Israel in his perfect patterne of Prayer wee are thither addressed for imitation thus Thy Will bee done in Earth as it is in Heauen But so for those ordinarily and of common course as that which they pray for is the generall good of all not the particular interest of any one Thus Gregorie Nazianzene was perswaded himselfe but did not presse others to beleeue it that his deceased Father then with God did specially intercede for his particular flock Orat. 19. pag. 288. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I am verily perswaded and beleeue that my Father now with God and the rather because hee is with God doth by mediating and interceding with God for you doe you more good and stand you in greater stead by his prayers then hee did while he liued amongst you by his Doctrine This is the common voice with generall concurrence without contradiction of reuerend and learned Antiquitie for ought I euer could reade or vnderstand and I see no cause or reason to dissent from them touching Intercession in this kinde I adde in particular yet somewhat farther To which we had rather adde then detract from it Those with God may and doe recommend vnto God in their celestiall Prayers their kindred friends and acquaintance vpon Earth whom they knew in whose loue and familiaritie they had interest yet being in the flesh with whom they had conuersed more reseruedly But no other sort and manner for them then onely for such instant and exigent necessities But in reference to what they vvere here acquainted withall For such causes occasions and employments as being yet in viuis and conuersant with them they knew of vnderstood and were acquainted withall or interessed in and haue not forgotten being Resiants in those heauenly habitations and all teares wiped away from their own eyes For the Soule of man separated from the Body by Death and subsisting alone in all freedome Which they cannot but retayne in memorie happinesse and content with God cannot bee thought to empaire or suffer losse in any indowment naturall or acquisite which tend to perfection of state and being and I speake and intend this of those indowments formerly had in time of life For as concerning those newly acquired accruing in and to the state they then enioy with God speake they that can tell if yet they can tell what they speake Nor is it so strange For if that those who are restored againe by Christ and raysed vp from the dust of the earth to liue with him in glorie in the day of restauration of all by Christ and retribution of the Righteous shall perfectly know and take notice of those whom they neuer knew nor saw perchance nor heard of in the flesh as being post-nati vnto them so many hundreds or thousands of yeeres If they shall know Adam Seth Enoch Noah Abraham all the Patriarchs Prophets Apostles how can they forget the names and notions of them with whom they conuersed so many yeeres From whose societie and companie they so lately departed vnto whom they imparted of their owne secrets and with whose counsels they were acquainted with whom so long they liued together seruing one God together as friends Diues in Hell where the Soule if any where Since euen the soules in hell can doe it loseth her indowments knew Abraham whom he had neuer seene in Earth and acknowledgeth him to be the Author of his stock and people the Iewes Diues in Hell had not forgot the number and condition of his Brethren on earth and was also carefull and mindfull of them least they should come into that place of torment Whether it bee an Historie as Tertullian and many other suppose or else a Parable as others rather thinke yet euen so it will come home to purpose For parables are not Chimaraes or speculations meerely but deduced from condition of things that bee Hee saw him as hee could with his vnderstanding he tooke notice of him with his vnderstanding Hee lost not the memorie of the things hee had who acquired the knowledge of what he had not Had he lost what he had it had beene in vaine for Abraham to haue said Sonne remember Ex hac parabola discimuâ— well resolueth Euthymius quòd in futuro saeculo non solùm peccatores vident bonâ—s boni peccatores sed â—gâ—â—scunt etiam igrotos Nam Diues ab Abraham câ—gâ—oscâ—tur Lazarus à reprobo epulons saith Gregory Nor will nor effects of will are extinguished in them either Naturall in good things as the rich man desired his Brethrens good or Deliberatiue in bad as being immutable vnto good And doubtlesse if in Carcare it be retained much more it is eminent in palatio The Saints in glory haue a greater portion Glory being the Perfection of Grace and Grace the aduancer of Nature then the Reprobate in Hell can enioy of the acts and perfections of the Soule Vpon this ground and perswasion of the Soules indowments Celerinus in Cyprian writeth vnto Lucianus a man readie to be offered vp in persecution thus Rogo itaque Domine peto per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum vt caeteris Collegis tuis fratribus mejs Dominis referas abijs petas vt quicunque prior vestrûm coronatus fuerit istis Sororibus nostris Numeriae Candidae tale peccatum remittant
him This Testimony in my vnderstanding speaketh to another purpose not for Intercession by Inuocation The Prayer here intended is made not to Saint nor Soule nor Angell but to God He supposeth so doe all that those Holy ones with God And of prayers made onely to God doe continually pray vnto God for the Church which prayers he desireth God would mercifully heare and grant vnto them for the good of his chosen vpon Earth Both parts in this passage militant triumphant employed in Prayer The prayer of either directed vnto God This onely difference The one as in necessity praying for themselues the other in security themselues interceding for others Neither Inuocating other for to doe it but de motu proprio and correspondent to their state Theodoret spake of the like prayers Theodoret intendeth no more but so in that testimony taken into the Controuersies Ego autem huic narrationi sinem imponens rogo quaeso vt per horum intercessionem diuinum consequar auxilium Rogo quaeso nor this nor that Saint but God alone to this end and purpose that by their Intercession and Prayers I may finde assistance which might be done although hee neuer said Sancte Tu aut Tu ora pro me as being a member of that holy Society for which they intercede continually And yet if they did intercede for him particularly it was vpon occasion extraordinary his paines and desert of them and the Church in that History which he wrote out of which this Testimony is recited De vitis Patrum But speciall Actions and particular Dispensations as hath beene often said are no rules for generall directions of Piety in point of deuotion and of Gods seruice necessarily incumbent But whereas the Controuersor telleth vs that Theodoret in Historia Sanctorum Patrum singulas vitas ita concludit If hee meane in those precise words it is most false And for that which they vrge out of his History is meerly belied scarce doth hee conclude any so If he vnderstand it to that sence it is likewise false For the 1. the 13.16.17 lines haue no such thing at all the rest that haue the thing yet differ in substance somtime often in circumstance very seldome therein agreeing The eight in number falleth in with that practice of the Ancients of friends vnto friends to remember them vnto God Ego autem cuius dum adhuc esset superstes percepi benedictionem ed vt nunc quoque fruar precatus finem imponam And in the 18. to the same purpose Ego autem rogo vt illam consequar intercessionem quam huc vsque percepi dum esset adhuc superstes Not by speciall Inuocation of him to remember him but by prayer vnto God that he may remember him or if vnto him as vitâ i d. Rogans Sanctos yet not with such confidence as if he were certaine to be assuredly heard Vitâ vj. Ego autem nunc oro vt quam dare potest cius consequar intercessionem He was not resolued what manner it was but whatsoeuer it was desireth to obtaine it So or we haue no certainty in the point or that which wee haue is not to purpose not to interpose an exception against the party as incompetent because suspected or misvnderstood because of that number who held that Saints departed doe not yet see God Damascene and Theophylact are not Homines legales to be empanelled vpon this Iury of twelue out of the Greeke Church being both Postnati vnto Primitiue antiquity and out of the verge of the Churches purity Damascene liuing in the yeere 730. and Theophylact suruiuing William Conqueror Their testimony out of Chrysostome of the Emperor his interceding To conclude with Chrysostome thus hee speaketh to the purpose in the Controuersies Homil 66. ad populum Antiochenum circa finem Nam ipse qui purpuram indutus est He meaneth the Emperor the Prince then in state Accedit illa coÌ„plexurus sepulchra fastu deposito stat sanctis supplicaturus vt pro se intercedant apud Deum Et scenarum fabrum Piscatores orat qui diademate incedit redimitus Hee meaneth Saint Peter Saint Andrew Iames Iohn and Paul though Bellarmines Interpretor whosoeuer hee was hath ignorantly and falsly and impiously too translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scenarum fabrum as if Saint Paul had beene a Stage-maker who was a Tent-maker as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth and not a stage-maker a course of life I dare say he did detest But let that passe as not to purpose I answere first If the testimony be no better then the title of the Oration If it be true it is not worth three blew beanes in a blew bladder For Chrysost neuer made halfe so many Orations vnder that title of Ad populum Antiochenum Bellarmine himselfe else where is my Author 〈◊〉 de Scriptori 〈…〉 3â—8 Ex homilijs ad populum Antiochenum viginti vna tantum reperiri dicuntur manuscriptae in antiquis bibliothecis Secondly this is onely a narration what was done Yet it is 〈◊〉 narration without any approbation of the thing done it is no approbation of the thing done or doing of it The testimonies recited out of the 5. and 8. Homil. vpon Saint Mathew and 1. vpon the 1 Thessal doe speake of Saints liuing and not departed and so are not to purpose The other testimonies speak of Saints liuing or ad rem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to enioy or participate the prayers of Saints and hee instanceth the profit by Saint Peter deliuered out of prison at the prayers of the Church which I know and I thinke our Masters doe beleeue was of the Church militant and not triumphant So Hom. 44. in Gen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which we vnderstanding beloued let vs haue recourse vnto the Intercession of Saints and intreat them to recommend vs to God But as I said he meaneth liuing not departed Saints as interpreting that of Ier. 3.15 And my selfe could furnish them with a better But I will helpe them to a Text indeed that commeth home et rem acu carrying with it approbation nor so alone but also inuitation to performe it Tom. 5. pag. 481. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not onely vpon this day their holy day and solemne festiuall but other dayes likewise let vs persist and attend vpon them at their Memories he meaneth Bernice Prosdocia and Domnia let vs make meanes vnto them intreat them to vouchsafe and vndertake the Patronage and protection of vs They can doe much with God now dead as they could aliue much more and rather dead then aliue For now they beare about them the markes of Christ Iesus and can obtaine any thing of our Lord and King if they but shew these markes vnto him And yet this doth not proue precisely and home And yet will not that proue the point in Controuersie the point
Saint Ignatius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In consideration and regard hereof let vs preferre our abiding here before all other content and pleasure whatsoeuer That so being aduantaged with much content we may through the meanes of their intercession become Inmates with them our fellow seruants And this was rather in the opinion of Him or Them that came thether And rather fitting himselfe to the opinion of others then expressing his owne to visite their shrine by working vpon his or their affection then in any actuall or reall performance of the Saint toward them as the same Father expresseth it in his second Oration vpon the Martyr Babylas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very sight of the Coffin presented by view to the vnderstanding amaseth it streight and so affecteth it in that very sort as if the party there interred were present really to be seene with the eye and together in prayer vnto God ioyned with vs. A plaine proofe of Chrysostomes resolution in the point who seemeth to be â—o very much for Saints mediation A strong imagination and no more an impression no reality vpon the vnderstanding And he addeth yet a case parallell of those men that hauing lost some one deare friend or other and going to visit the place of his buriall imagine that they behold him personally there which we know is an ordinary impossibility 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 addresse their speech vnto him or them as present as hearing instantly Imagination is strong they say and doth much sure it doth which produceth such effects in Inuocation for which Neither will they haue any better successe either with the Greeke or Latine Fathers if Chrysostome may interpret his owne meaning there is no great warrant in his workes Thus the Iury of Greeke Fathers ten of them at least haue said what they knew or could speake in the Case vpon their knowledge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not at all to purpose nor answering the question propounded to them The Latines succeed if not more full to purpose yet more frequent to the point For to supply defaulters if any were there are returned well-nigh a Decem non tales as being postnati and so partiall that speake indeed to the practice since it was in being out of the verge of our limitted time Gregory the Great he of Tours and some other And yet against the foreman is more exception For they are honest men at least of good reputation in the Country amongst their neighbours although their witnesse as interessed be not receiueable but Cornelius is a Counterfeit no legall man a flat Knight of the post Ex Latinis saith Bellarmine S t. Cornelius Papa in Epistola 1 a. quae est de translatione corporum Apostolorum is the first and formost that is brought to speake much to the preiudice of this cause more to the iust reproofe of the Defendant that bringeth that party to speake for him whom himselfe else-where will not acknowledge otherwise then for a Rogue For there hee resolueth that onely foure Epistles of Cornelius are extant and this alledged is none of them De scriptor Ecclesiae But he set forth his booke of Ecclesiastique Writers since and therefore more aduised vpon better search and second thoughts he hath not authorised the Epistle as authenticke But admit Cornelius were the Writer therof and not some boy of the Scullery or of the Stable yet the fellow whosoeuer speaketh not to purpose Orantes Deum Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum vt intercedentibus Sanctis suis Apostolis maculas vestrorum purget peccatorum The prayer that is made is to Iesus Christ and to no Saint There is mention of Intercession but without Inuocation Nor needed that For he meaneth onely such and no other Intercession but such which the Apostles of the Lamb and Church of the redeemed in heauen did make vnto God for their Brethren yet in Earth And euen that Intercession is not inlarged vnto all but confined vnto the Apostles alone Saint Peter and Paul because the present occasion touched theÌ„ alone The most that can be made of it is this that God would be pleased to apply the generall Intercession of those Apostles in and with the Church triumphant vnto this part of the Church Militant that at present did this honour vnto those Apostles this is all Saint Hillary is the next man Saint Hillaries testimony is more true then materiall and his witnesse is true vpon Psalme â—29 but not to purpose Hee speaketh onely of Angelicall Intercession Intercessione Angelorum non naetura Dei indiget sed infirmit as nostra As speaking onely of Angels Not a word touching Inuocation or Intercession of Saints Now Saints and Angels as it hath beene declared are ill and ignorantly combined per omnia in this case which are most what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Incompatible companions in the point Secondly hee speaketh of particular Intercession for them And of particular Intercession vnto whom they haue beene imployed or vnto whom they are assigned The first is a singular extraordinary case and so holdeth not for generall practice euery where The second is ordinary as is supposed which if it be indeed as is supposed then it is to purpose but not to the question and therefore this witnesse might haue been spared as that is in part out of 124. Psalme where if any intercession be intended it is that in generall for the whole Church Sed neque desunt stare volentibus Sanctorum custodiae neque munitiones Angelorum And anon to explaine the praesidium hee meaneth Ac ne leue praesidium in Apostolis vel Patriarchis ac Prophetis vel potius in Angelis qus Ecclesiam quadam custodiâ circumsipâ—runt crederemus adiectum est Et Dominus in circuitu populi sui This is their Praesidium a sure one indeed the other is accessory and for all out of that Communion and Society of Saints in the both Triumphant and Militant Church Saint Ambrose is produced to speake next but he speaketh not home as they would haue him Saint Ambrose speakes not out of full resolution nor to purpose as they alledge him Obsecrandi sunt Angeli qui nobis ad praesidium dati sunt Martyres obsecrandi quorum videmur nobis corporis quoddam pignore patrocinium vindicart Possunt pro peccatis rogare nostris But onely out of some opinion of their patronage qui proprio sanguine etiamsi quae habuerant peccata lauerunt Isti enim sunt Dei Martyres nostri praesules speculatores vita actuumque nosirorum Non erubescamus cos intercessores nostrae inâ—irmitatis adhibere quia ipsi infirmitatem corporiâ— etiam cum vincerent cognouerunt The very carriage of this passage telleth vs thus much that Saint Ambrose spake it not as out of resolution or conclusion Theologicall It was but opinion that they were our Patroni His speech bewrayeth his meaning Videmur we doe seeme to haue
troubled the whole World It is an opinion receiued and hath beene long that if not euery man each sonne of Adam yet sure â—ach Christian man regenerate by water and the holy Ghost at least from the day of his Regeneration and new birth vnto God if not from the time of his comming into the World hath by Gods appointment and assignation an Angell Guardian to attend vpon him at all assayes in all his wayes at his going forth at his comming home Who though hee goe inuisibly and assist insensibly as his Nature is yet is supposed to attend vpon vs to bee present with vs continually Parum est fecisse Angelos tuos fecisti Custodes paruulorum who Continually behold the face of their Father in Heauen This being supposed to bee so So that it were also rightly vnderstood It being resolued that hee doth not leaue vs at all the time of our life it being beleeued that he is euermore present at hand and neere vnto vs vnder correction to say now which I said not then I see no absurditie in Nature no incongruitie vnto Analogie of Faith no repugnancie at all vnto sacred Scripture much lesse impietie for any man to say Sancte Angele custos ora pro me This in priuate discourse I might say vnto him talking vpon this as wee did vpon many other particulars disputed of betwixt the sides of Protestant and Romane Catholikes It is no impietie it can be no foolerie thus to resolue only vpon the former supposition For as to my Brother or to my Friend at hand neere vnto me I may say Good Friend or good Brother let mee haue your good Prayers vnto God for me so good Angell Keeper pray for mee supposing him present and alway at hand as if he be Guardian perpetuall he must be And therefore Caluine obserueth against this Romane tenet of Inuocation Nor if wee granted Inuocation for all Angels as well as this would thâ—t 〈◊〉 the Inuocation of Saints that the case is not the same betwixt Angels and Saints because Angels are appointed which Saints are not and deputed to protect vs though in particular hee grant no Angell Custos It is true that Inuocation of Saints is a point of Foolery it being at least vncertaine whether they are and in what manner they can be acquainted with our wants seeing their condition is not to attend vs and they are remooued farre aboue our reach and Call Though for them we grant not for the Angell Guardian we might better grant it though wee call vnto them neuer so often or so loude but the case of Angell Guardians is farre different being euer in procinctu nigh at hand vnto vs continually and neuer abandoning vs all our dayes If my selfe at London should say vnto a friend at Constantinople or in the Indies Sir helpe me I might be laughed at deseruedly for my folly This case commeth home to their practice of Inuocation But if I speake vnto him that is present with me standeth by me to helpe and assist mee I commit no absurditie in Reason nor in Pietie And this vpon supposall of Angell Keepers which I vrge not as a point of beliefe or Pietie Wee doe not vrge 〈◊〉 certaine truth the case it selfe of Angel Keepers is not so resolued but only mention as of congruitie because it is most probable there are such Keepers If thus my selfe resolued doe inferre Holy Angel Keeper pray for mee I see no reason to bee taxed with point of Poperie or Superstition much lesse of absurditie or impietie But bee this as may be Salus Reipublicae non vertitur in istis a man may goe to Heauen that vseth it and he that denyeth it may goe thither also as likewise they may hoc non obstante goe either of them the contrary way to the contrarie place through breach or obseruation of things of an higher nature and greater allay tendred vnto vs vnder that strict forme Beleeue this and liue But to returne to our Perswaders for Prayer vnto Saints But whatsoeuer we grant or denie they are eloquent Orators for the Inuocation of Saints too they vse to tell vs many long and plausible Discourses of the happie and blessed estate of the Saints in Heauen of the fruition and enioying of his presence in Glorie with whom is the fulnesse of ioy at whose right hand is pleasure for euermore They discourse of their Charitie and good affection vnto vs their Brethren militant in the Church vpon earth the great desire they haue to doe vs good their readinesse to helpe and to assist vs at need The grace and fauour they are in with God and the possibilitie they haue to bee heard in their desires and to haue whatsoeuer they aske granted to them As if it were questioned at all by vs whether quoad statum they did see God or not or were as yet quoad locum in Heauen with God or no. Some haue doubted of both in the Church of Rome I grant especially for statum more materiall of the two as Iohn 22. and that Renegado a man of no Religion as appeareth by his owne Profession nor Conscience who publikely taught little lesse then this not by way of Probleme but Position as I am more particularly assured of it who disswaded him from doing so but he would not heare mee Wee make question of neither Place or State but in Faith and full assurance hold them partakers and possessed alreadie of that state of happinesse and glory with Christ Iesus Vrging what we doe not denie de â—oco sâ—atu who in the highest Heauens sitteth at the right hand of God in Glorie which winneth infallibly leadeth indeclinably holdeth inseparably vnto and with God Foelix anima as Saint Augus tine meditateth vpon this state and condition of the Righteous Quae terreno corpore resoluta libera Coelum petit secura est tranquilla Non timet hostem neque mortem Habet enim praesentem cernitque indesinenter Dominum Deum pulcherrimum sui seruiuit quem dilexit ad quem tandem laeta gloriosa peruenit But what is this to purpose But to no purpose their being with God enioying God preuayling with God louing vs to the purpose of ordinary power to assist vs practice of Intercession to mediate for vs What is iâ— to mee what another is in himselfe if it be not otherwise ad me that I receiue some benefit or aduantage Not any of these nor all these indowments and atchieuements come home to the point of power and possibilitie ordinarily to heare the Petitions of any at any time in any place necessarily required and to bee assured before I can say Ora pro me Nor is it to purpose or for aduantage that they come in vpon the Seconds with a faire Discourse vnto Nouices and their Proselytes of that loue and deare affection which they beare vnto their Brethren And therefore doubt not And with as little
of the Righteous This being supposed needes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that hope of great helpe and assistance from them by so free accesse and representation of our Prayers vnto God as these men talke of from those who could not euen in their owne opinions intimate their owne suites vnto God in presence representatiuely being not admitted thither where hee had his residence not comming to looke into the Glasse of the Deity For they were it is taught in Limbo a verge of Hell farre enough remote from God and Heauen Thus it is determined by him that can tell Haec quaestio fundamentum est omnium aliarum namely concerning the honour due and done vnto them Canonization of them Assistance from and by them an Sanctorum animae Deum videant vere beatae sâ—nt ante diem iudiâ—ij So that Irenaeus the Author of the Questions vnder Iustine Martyrs name Tertullian Origen Hillary Chrysostome Theodoret and others must be spunged out from the list and Catalogue of Assertors of this point The Saints departed may profitably be inuoked Farther it may be noted in this generall view that in many passages of the Ancients And lastly in many thinâ—â— they are mâ—â—rly Rhetoricall pretended for this particular those Rethoricall Figures Prosopopeyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Compellations of holy Saints and Martyrs to be found in the Panegyricall Orations of the Greeke Fathers especially are directed not at large to any Saint or blessed soule as to parties vnknowne Specially speaking to Saints supposed to haue more particular intâ—lliâ—ence and care of them without our acquaintance but onely to such as had or be supposed to haue had some more speciall and reserued reason of intirenesse presence assistance or intelligence with them then others had as interessed in the State Calling Profession Place Life and manner of Conuersation of the Petitioners or directed vnto such as were their familiars and acquainted in this life and so more priuate and peculiarly addicted vnto them in Heauen Who peraduenture might as hath beene said through peculiar dispâ—nsaâ—ion be very carefull of their good intend their necessities and behoofe and through that peculiar dispensation attend the occasions sometime of their acquaintance according to that practice and opinion in vse specified in that compact betwixt Cyprian and Cornelius Bishop of Rome These generall Obseruations These fâ—â—e obseruations may helpe vs in the allegation of the texts of Father may be exemplified in the particular allegations of texts of Fathers either representatiuely for the body of the Church in Councels or else particularly in their priuate writings and allegations which are not demonstrations of the Church Doctrine in those times but onely priuate opinions of some men deliuered obiter and vpon the by without any contestation at all or violence for the maintayning of them Which seuerally perswade not but being laid together if they speake one thing and runne all one way may not be lightly reiected or cast off Nam quae non prosunt singula multa invant Therefore to ioyne issue let vs try their force and see of what efficacy they are of to perswade to a generall opinion and beliefe Dionysius Areopagita leadeth the Ring as he is cited by the great Master of Controuersies in his 7. Chapter of the Church-Hierarchy See it first in Dien Ar. Idem sit acsi sole suos radios sanis elargiente oculis sibi quis oculos eruens solaris luminis particeps fieri postulat Sic impossibilium superfluâ spe ille suspensus est qui sanctorum flagitat preces Naturae ipsorum consentaneus sacras operationes abigit I will take no exception to the person of this witnesse Whose Testimony if it be good let him passe for an honest legall man though hee be generally anciently and probably also suspected for a counterfeit and held insufficient to giue any witnesse in vpon euidence of Record To the witnesse and testimony which he giueth I answere Here is no mention of the practice nor yet Iustification for the rule of Invocation of Saints Nay rather that practice in generall or particular is disallowed as vnprofitable because vsed in a Subiect that is impossible Flagitare preces Sanctorum is superfluous because the hope of helpe from them is impossible It is saith he as if a man that hath no eyes should expect or desire to be enlightened from the beames of the Sunne which shineth indeed forth vnto them that are api nati fitted to receiue it and capable of it Nor can the allegation bee aduantaged any way because Sani are comforted and refreshed by the light of the Sunne which indeed shineth vnto those that are capable of it For it is confessed to hold proportion there with that the Saints departed doe in generall pray for the Estate of the Church militant vpon Earth May well be applyed against them for the state and necessity of particular Churches or priuate men their friends with which they were acquainted in time of life That is That the Sunne indeed sheddeth and casteth beames abroad But the question is of particular Intercession for any man that is of applications of those beames of the Sunne to the eyes of the blinde in vaine and without profit which are pleasant and profitable to him that hath his sight Thus this Testimony as it lyeth in the body of those Controuersies is pregnant against the Pleaders of it But farther in the Deposition subscribed with his owne hand And it cannot make for them if Sancti be so vnderstood as he meant it Areopagita speaketh a farre off and to another purpose Sancti in Dionysius Language are not Defuncti or Regnantes with Christ as the Controuerser supposeth but the word is to be taken according to the phrase of those most ancient times So Saints in Saint Paul are not Saint Stephen Saint Iames and such as they Then dead The phrase is not once I suppose in him that way but men then aliue in the bosome of the Church parts and members of the Church militant The Saints in Dionysius answerably were such holy men as serued at the Altar as the last words in the Testimony as it is laid downe there might very well haue informed him Et Naturae ipsorum consentaneas sacras operationes abigit In effect Will not regard or partake of the Doctrine and instruction which they affoord him And the latter words restored to their true construction or of the Sacraments which they minister vnto him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In neglect and disregard of the gifts of God and in breach of his Commandements Againe I adde that Bellarmines eyes were not in his head when hee tooke a view of the Testimony of Dionysius or else hee tooke vp the witnesse from some Knight of the post who was ready to say any thing for his owne aduantage For the whole discourse of Dionysius in that Section is concerning Prayer for the dead not vnto them for
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ioyne your Prayers vnto and with the Intercession of those Angels with them not to them vnto God for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he resolueth God was present there Wâ—llinâ— them to ioyne in prayer with those Martyres And therefore thirdly wee must remember that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hee would haue them ioyne in prayer with the Martryes because that these were more interessed where Saint Basil vttered that Oration then Saints at large are or can be vnto any of vs. They were all Cappadocians of that Countrey and they not long before Martyred at least not so long before but that they then liuing might remember them well enough and they remember the state of that their Countrey whereof peraduenture they were deputed to take speciall care and charge And so lastly it was a particular case and relyed vpon some dispensation onely which doth not warrant a generall practice of all vnto any at any time indeterminately A second testimony is recited out of the same Basil in his Comment The other testimony is of a higher straine vpon the 33. Psal these words of the Psalme The eyes of the Lord are vpon the Righteous and his eares are open vnto their prayers Where Saint Basil thus Sanctae spirituales virtutes aliquae oculi dicuntur quod curam susceperint nos intervisendi Nonnullae aures vt quae nostras suscipiunt preces But not high enough to take hold vpon Inuocation of Saints This passage is indeed of another straine as putting to decision dogmatically not related or amplified Panegyrically But euen this doth not reach home it is too short to take hold vpon Inuocation For he speaketh it of Angels not of Saints Being meant onely of Angels and their case is different their condition not the same Secondly not of all Angels in generall but onely of some and so appointed to that Act by speciall dispensation which it selfe is Thirdly Appointed by speciall dispensation peculiar Protection as they are Custodes parvulorum In the text there is a plaine diuersification of their Act Some are eyes others eares some imployed in messages to vs As peculiar Protectors Others receiuing our prayers but of whom From them it is probable that were sent to visit vs either as Guardians or Extraordinarily either way no warrant for Inuocation of Angels or Saints at large Lastly hee meaneth by our prayers The prayers alâ—o being vnderstood not of particular men but of the whole Church the prayers of the Church and not of euery particular man Not to diuide them in Opinion who in affection were so combined together Greg. Naz. coÌ„meth in with a thraue of testimonies not all indeed broght in by the Master of Controuersies but yet of that Nature Condition as that they may all speak as wel as some Nazâ—â—â—zen seem◠〈…〉 as they will haue it that we must take him in parts I wil produce them as they happened to come to my hands And first in the nineteenth Oration as the Copies goe pag. 288. touching his owne father deceased before Saint Sasil then present at the Sermon In the first he saith in deed what we deny not thus he Nec dubito quin hoc nunc quoque tanto magis deprecatione suà quà m prius doctrina praestet quanto nunc magis Deo appropiâ— quat Nazianzene in this place may well be taken to resolue this position dogmatically That the prayers of the Righteous in heauen regnant with God are more effectuall and doe sooner preuaile with God That the prayers of the Saints in heauen are more effectuall then the prayers of men militant in the Church vpon earth This is not questioned when they doe intercede Secondly Nazianzen resolued there that his father with God in heauen That his deceased Father would not forget his late Episcopall â—harge and happinesse did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fight for his flocke Doe the Office of a Pastor in praying for them No more doe I doubt then Nazianzene did thereof They whom he meant were sometime his fathers Episcopall charge He loued them instructed them cared for them defended them in his life nor could hee forget them being dead For the soule doth not drinke of Lethe lake to forget the things and passages of this world wherewith formerly shee was acquainted But I make a question indeed But neither he saith nor can they proue that he oâ— any of his Church prayed to his Father whether Nazianzen did pray vnto his father or any of his Church recommended their priuate necessities and afterward occasions vnto his mediation or aduocation I reade not that he or any else did so I am sure he prayed not vnto him there Not so much as speaketh vnto him by way of Apostrophe or compellation That which he supposeth his father did for his flocke is also supposed to be done motu proprio and not vpon solicitation And what is this to the case of Inuocation vnto peculiar Saints Farther hee proceedeth with Saint Basil his friend in his Funerall Oration thus The next is the supposed Inuocation of his friend Basil Tu verò Sacrum diuinum caput de coelo nos quaso respice carnisque stimulum à Deo nobis ad disciplinam datum aut precibus tuis siste aut certè vt forti animo perferamus persuade atque omnem nostram vitam ad id quod maximè conducibile est airige Nosque postea quà m ex hâc vitâ migrauerimus illis quoque tabernaculis tuis suscipe As direct an Inuocation supposed as may be Nay rather a desire and a wish that Saint Basil might be permitted to doe so and so then a prayer vnto him vpon this resolution that hee could and would doe so At least not so direct as is Ora pro Nobis of strangers euery way vnto one vnknowne But to one that he knew But indeed as Nazianzen spake it in his own language when he spake it it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a wish and desire at Gods hands as Billius a Papist hath translated it it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a prayer Respice nos so he hath it is an higher straine to an higher note then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 o si or vtinam nos respicias And that the Translator hath wronged Nazianzens meaning Abused by the Translator whereby the Controuersor was willing enough to take aduantage appeareth by his owne words a little before whereas the ground of his prayer is but opinion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And now hee is in Heauen and there as I verily suppose offereth vp sacrifice for vs making Intercession for the people For howsoeuer hee is gone from vs yet verily hath hee not vtterly forsaken nor yet abandoned vs. All that he auoucheth whatsoeuer it be is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as I am perswaded But howsoeuer vnresolued and grounded vpon opinion as I take it and therefore vncertaine and in him