which hee established by the example and judgement of other Churches 1 Cor. 14. 33. 1 Cor. 11. 16. The equity of which is that the Orders agreed upon by the consent of many Churches are of great force and authority to bind so Paul though an Apostle submitted to the practice of what was agreed upon by the common consent of James and all the Elders of Jerusalem though in the practice of Jewish and legall ceremonies Acts 21. from the 18. ver. to the 27. ver. Thus in a case of great dissention and disputation in the Church of Antioch Acts 15. 1 2. ver. Why did that Church send to Jerusalem for resolution in that difficult case to be determined and bound by the decrees and Orders of the Apostles and Elders in that Synod and were not bound nor determined by their owne Church onely especially having two such excellent men with them as Barnabas and Paul whose judgement they might have rested upon Surely this was done for this end to teach us that divers Churches in difficult cases ought to meete by their Ministers and some choise men to determine of matters for those Churches according to the Word to which all those Churches should submit Neither will it helpe them to say this was extraordinary for what Synod can say it seemeth good to us and the holy Ghost and those decrees bound them who were not present Not to answer these exceptions now but reserving the answer to a larger Tractate upon this subject grant it that something in this Synod was singular and extraordinary yet this was not for one Church to send to another and that to their ordinary Officers the Elders Acts 15. 2. ver. to this end that by common consent difficult cases might be determined and enjoyned upon particular Churches by more than their owne Church for this must needs be Ordinary and so binding being an example founded upon rules of common equity reason and communion of Churches and not upon temporary or extraordinary grounds and that appeares thus for unlesse it were to teach the succeeding Churches this and to be a ground for Synods and Dependancy in Government in cases of difference and difficulty there could be no other great use nor end of it for as for the satisfying of the question and resolving the case Paul alone being at Antioch one who was immediately and infallibly inspired by the Spirit was able of himselfe to have satisfyed that controversie about Circumcision much more Barnabas being with him and others in that Church Reason VI THe Government of the Church by Synods is no where forbidden by God in the New Testament nor spoken against either directly or by consequence as they say is for one man to have the power Luk. 22. 25. 26. ver. For though no one Minister as some say be greater than another yet all are greater than one or a few In Synods here is no erecting or appointing of an Officer or office in the Church which Christ hath not appointed which is the exception made against Episcopacy but here are onely the Officers appointed by Christ and that forme of government which is appointed by Christ in his Church namely Aristocraticall here is no varying of the forme of Church government from Aristocraticall to Monarchicall as they speake of Episcopacy but the government by Synods is most Aristocraticall whereas the Independant way for the most part is but onely Oligarchicall having but a few Officers in a Church or else Democraticall if put into the body of the Congregation now where there is no Law forbidding there is no transgression for sinne is a transgression of the Law 1 John 3. 4. And such actions the Church may lawfully doe wherein no Law of God is broken as is confessed by themselves in the fifth Argument of Syons Prerogative But here is no Law broke this never being spoken against nor liable to those exceptions put in by them against Episcopacy but found agreeable to the Law and light of Nature concerning societies to generall rules in the word of edification order peace purenesse lovelinesse c. to examples also and practises in Scripture and what though there be not an expresse precept or a command in terminis for it yet not being against Scriptures but so agreeable to it as appeares by all before said no sober godly Minister or Christian should refuse Communion with a Church or submission to it and go and set up a Church against a Church and foment a schisme for that for if they will doe so and will not goe upon generall rules equity of Examples light of Nature and reason they must forsake being fixed members of any particular congregation and forsake all Churches in the Independant way and professedly joyne themselves to no Assembly in the exercise of Instituted worship because they must practice as great matters concerning externall government and worship of what ever Church or government they be of as this is namely the Association of Churches Let them produce a particular word for the order of Gods Worship what must be performed first what second what third what fourth and so of the rest and that no ordinance nor part of Worship may be in another Order Let them if they can show a particular Word or rule in the New Testament for their Church covenant which yet is an essentiall point namely the forme of the Church let them produce what is required in the word particularly as the forme of excommunication or as the forme of Ordination let them set downe the outward worship and gesture of the externall reverence which must be used and no other way in the severall Ordinances of God as Word Prayer singing of Psalmes reading Scriptures Baptisme Lords Supper Excommunication which if they cannot as we know they are not able neither in these nor many other things which may be named let them then learne that many things in government and Discipline have but generall rules with equity of practices and if they will not joyne nor have to doe in Church Government and Discipline till they have particular commands to walke thus and no otherwise they shall stay long enough and be of no Church Reason VII THis consociation and combination in way of Synods is granted by themselves as lawfull and expedient in sundry cases and particulars As that one Church being required ought to give an account to others and to be content that matters of difference and importance should be heard by other Churches as also to be advised and counselled by other Churches to have also doctrines that are questionable tryed and judged of by Synods to be admonished and to be reproved also in case they deserve it and in case they will not amend and reforme upon admonitions and reproofes of Synods and Assemblies then they are to be complained of to the Civill Magistrate that he may doe his duty For this see Christ on his Throne vid. pag. 32. examin. of Prelat petition Sions Prerog. pag. 63.
they cannot grow up in grace and knowledge as becomes a Church of Christ there may be also all barbarousnesse and disorder for want of gifts in government in these weake Officers all which tends to the prejudice and hazard of the Soules hence this is given as the great reason by Divines of the examination of Ministers before Ordination and that to be by learned and able men because as there is nothing more profitable to the Church then good Pastors so nothing more pernitious then bad and unlearned Ministers Secondly suppose they might chuse well namely able men both for parts and soundnesse in the faith and it were lawfull also for the people to ordaine yet it may so fall out according to their principles of a Church that these visible Saints cannot Ordaine Officers as having no gifts of prayer for publicke especially not able to conceive prayers concerning the action in hand namely the Ordination of a Minister neither had they any gifts to make publicke exhortations and admonitions to the Pastor of his duty nor be able to know what to say to him at the admission of him into his Office What shall be done now shall the worke be staid and the Church want a Minister till she be able to doe these workes and duties They may for ought can be said be long nay ever without Ministers and so without Preaching of the Word and Sacraments which cannot but be very prejudiciall to their Salvation But to grant them that which needes not be granted according to their principles that this Church shall have some Offices as suppose a ruling Elder yet when a Pastor is to be chosen these Elders who have a gift in government may not be able nor competent to try and examine the gifts and parts of a Pastor nay yeeld them to have a Pastor and the Church would now chuse a Teacher one single Pastor though able in his gift of Exhortation and application may not be so able to try the gifts requisite to a Teacher whose gifts must be for exposition and controversies to preserve pure Doctrine Hence Amesius speaking of calling of Ministers to a Church saith that here is need of direction and helpe of Presbyters both of the same Church and for the most part of the Neighbour Churches But if he were able to try and examine yet how shall this Teacher be ordained there being but one Minister if Ministers of Neighbour Churches may not joyne also consider if they doe not fall into that which they complaine against in the Episcopacy namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination So that by all these particulars you may see the Assumption proved Reason III. T Is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy no not for one time or prima vice for innocent persons that are wronged but where being no place for appeales the parties oppressing must be the sole Judges of the cause It is counted an unequall unreasonable thing in governements that parties should be judges at all much lesse the sole and that there should be no way for persons oppressed to be righted But now in this Independant Church Government there is no reliefe no not at first for injured persons nor way of appeale to others who be not parties to heare their cause and determine here onely parties are Judges and no others may be admitted As for instance in one of their congregations the greatest number of that Church as it doth and may oft fall out is against the Pastor or Teacher and some other members upon a difference in some points of doctrine and being the greater number the Elders also taking part with them they proceed most unjustly to censures of deprivation and excommunication Now if all the power lye independantly in this particular Church so as there may be no other as Synods to appeale unto to heare the cause and right them this Minister and brethren thus censured must lye under these oppressions without all remedy and be debarred from the ordinances of Christ without helpe what remedy there is in such cases as this we desire them to shew us and that such cases as this may not and doe fall out cannot be denyed Now that Christ should institute such a governement in his Church where 't is unlawfull for any but parties properly so termed to be sole Judges and where there is no possibility of redresse for the innocent in cases of injury which may and do ordinarily fall out is not a thing to be imagined by reasonable men t is spoken of by these men for a strange practise in the Bishops that they should be Judges in their owne cause and give votes in it though yet there be besides them three times their number of voyces in the house of Lords how much more unreasonable may they judge it in their way of Church governement where parties who are Judges be greater in number so that I may speake of the Independancy of their Congregations as Cameron speakes of the popular government of their Congregations * It is not credible that our Lord Jesus Christ who is both King of Righteousnesse and King of Peace would have government to be in this way which hath no meanes nor way for Righteousnesse nor peace in his Church besides the practice of the Church of Antioch recorded in Scripture for our example is against it and gives us ground for appeale to others out of that Church and not to have the parties the Judges Acts 15. 1 2. because the dissention and disputation was betweene Paul and Barnabas and them of Judaea who taught Circumcision therefore the Church of Antioch thought it not fit that Paul and Barnabas should determine and end it but sent to others Apostles and Elders who were not parties against them of Judaea and they shall determine for them all Else had not the dissention and disputation beene betweene Paul and Barnabas and certaine of Judaea and that in the particular Church of Antioch they were able to have determined it without sending to Jerusalem but the Church judged it unequall that they who were the parties in the controversie should be the Judges Reason IV. THe light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancy of particular Churches dictating leading us to dependancy a subordination and a consociation in government In all societies and bodies it is thus by the dictates of Nature and it is found necessary amongst bodies naturall and bodies politicke that the severall parts and particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater then a part the severall parts should be subject to and ordered by the whole as in a mans body the foote though it hath its proper use and operation is dressed lanched and ordered not by it selfe but by the hands and eyes In Cities and great Townes
though there be severall Companies who have Orders and Government among themselves in some particulars yet they are in subordination and in a consociation with greater assemblies in more high and difficult cases for the preservation of the whole In Common wealths and Kingdomes though severall Cities Townes Counties have Courts and their particular governments yet all these Courts are subordinated to higher and all these joyne and are consociated together in some chosen out of all as in Parliaments In Schooles of learning there be severall Colledges and Houses who have Masters and Officers of their owne yet there is a consociation of the chiefe of all these for the government of the whole In armies there be severall Companies and Regiments who have their distinct Captaines and Officers and yet upon great assaults exploits they are conjoyned all in one and have a councell of warre out of severall Regiments to advise and determine upon waighty occasions Particular Shippes have their owne Masters and Pilots and provisions and yet all joyne into one Navy for the safety of the whole At first Families had all power and governement within their owne walls but when they encreased though Families have power still of correction food yet they joyned to be governed by Magistrates and ruled in greater cases of life and death and goods Why should not this hold then be lawfull in the Church in greater and waightier matters especially seeing themselves affirme that their Churches are Bodies Spirituall Corporations Cities Families Armyes The Church is a most free Corporation Spirituall and doe inferre many of their practices from this that their Churches are bodies and societies and therefore it must be as it is with Corporations and bodies Politicke they must choose their owne Ministers the Ministers can onely Preach authoritatively in their owne Congregation as the Magistrate of Leyden can onely administer his publicke Office at Leyden and not at Delph Every particular member must enter into covenant with the Church when admitted a member because when men are admitted into a body or society civill they make not onely a Covenant but doe often adde thereto an Oath Themselves teach also that as Church Discipline is to be learned from the plaine and perfect Word of God so in such particulars as are common to the Church with other societies it is to be directed by the light of Nature the Church observing alwayes the generall Rules of the Word and so this is brought as the maine ground for their Church covenant though there be neither precept not practice of it in the Word namely the Lawes and rules of Nature which doe run along with and are alike common to things Spirituall and Humane so farre as both are found to agree in one common nature together for as when God made speaking to men in a publique assembly as is that of preaching or prophecying a sacred Ordinance instantly did all the Lawes of Nature and right reason that serve to regulate and conveniently concurre to all orderly speeches and Orations of men in publique made they did all fall upon this Ordinance also as to speake aloud not to speake two or three at once c. So say I in this point when God required governement and Discipline in his Church those rules and practices of governments which according to the light of Nature and right reason are in common-wealthes and societies were warranted for the Discipline of the Church especially the Church observing the generall rules of edification order peace c. which Synods and Counsells apparently tend to so that I may affirme of dependancy as is said by them of their Church covenant it is so farre from being any thing above that which is written that it rather comes within the compasse of the Apostle it needed not at all to have beene written 1 Thes. 4. 9. Ye are taught of God in a Law Spiritualized who also hath full roundly taught us to acknowledge if we be spirituall yea but reasonable such dictates of Nature and right reason in things wherein Divine Ordinances and Humane doe alike partake in common to be no lesse then the commands of God It is asserted by some Divines of Scotland that in all such things as are alike common to the Church and to the Common-wealth and have the same use in both whatsoever Natures light directeth the one it cannot but direct the other also for as the Church is a company of Christians subject to the Law of God so is it a company of men and women who are not the outlawes of Nature but followers of the same And hence it is Amesius showes that the light of Nature requires that particular Churches may and ought to combine in Synods for things of greater moment So then to conclude this reason and that ex concessis the God of Nature and Reason hath not left in his Word a governement against the light of Nature and right reason but such is the Independent Government as hath beene showne at large Reason V. THere be many Rules and Commands in the Scripture besides the equity and Analogy of some practises and examples which doe require the combination of Churches in Synods so Amesius confesses The rules and commands be such as these Let all things be done to edification let all things be done decently and in Order 1 Cor. 14. 26. 40. ver. Follow after the things which make for Peace Rom. 14. 19. So Philip 4. 8. vers. Now if all things in the Churches must be done to edification comely and in order and for peace then certainely Church government must But Synods are found to be for edification for Peace and order as things of good report and just as a speciall remedy for preventing and healing divisions which is not nor cannot be in the Independant Government but many cases fall out where there is no other remedy but separation separation being indeed the remedy of Separation It is confessed by themselves that this is a safe and prudentiall way Now a thing may be commanded by God two wayes either by vertue of a generall command or by vertue of a particular command and that is commanded and ought to be practised which is required by a generall precept as well as what is command by a particular and there are many particulars to be practised by vertue of a generall precept having no other foundation especially when they are found by common experience to be so The practises and examples following are such as these 1 Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets Now if the spirits of the Prophets in a particular Congregation must be subject to the censure of the rest in that Church then by way of equity and Analogy they are to be subjected to a greater company namely to the judgement of all the Prophets in a Province or Nation Thus Paul though an Apostle seekes to win credit and obedience even to those Orders
the whole way of the Separation for the healing of that great Schisme sprung up of late in this Church I thought good for the present necessity to set forth these few and short Reasons more time being required to review transcribe and Print larger Treatises Now that which first moved me to the drawing up of these Reasons both against Independant Government and against the Toleration of it was the credible information given me of some Petitions drawne to be presented to the Honourable House of Commons for a Toleration of some Congregations to enjoy an Independant Government and to be exempt from the Government which shall be established by Law Now though I believe hope and pray daily that God will keepe that Honourable House from ever giving any Countenance much lesse granting any such Petitions yet considering how many there are of that way some Inhabiting in this Kingdome others who are come over into England on purpose being sent as Messengers of their Charibes to negotiate in that behalfe and observing how diligently and close they follow it by daily attending at Westminster by insinuating themselves into the company of sundry Members of the House of Commons by Preaching often at Westminster the more to ingratiate themselves and their cause Printing also their desire of a Toleration for Independant Government and that with casting of dirt upon the Reformation and Government of this Nationall Church what ever it may be as witnesse the Protestation Protested I a Minister of the Gospel and a Sufferer for it these many yeares last past being one who desires as free a passage of the Gospel and as through a Reformation according to the will of God as any of them have thought it my duty that I might discharge a good Conscience to God and to the Kingdome to Print these Reasons at this time that so when any of those Petitions come to be propounded in the House of Commons under specious pretences and faire pretexts there may by these Reasons appeare a Snake under the greene grasse Neither speake I this as if I would intimate that that Honorable House could be taken with colours and faire glosses I know that great Body is so full of wisdome and so Eagle eyed that they can both see into and fore-see a farre off the many evills and mischiefes of Independancy and Tolerations But I suppose these Reasons may have their use among some to furnish them the more with grounds against such Petitions for satisfying also scruples instilled by the Independant men into some others as also to demonstrate to the Petitioners the unreasonablenesse of their demands My aime therefore is by this following discourse l. humblâ— to crave leave to enter in the Honourable House of Commons a Caveat both against Independant Government of Particular Congregations and against their Toleration and to present to the House a Writ of Ne admittas fetcht out from the Court of Heaven and from the Records of Holy Scripture Reasons Against THE Independant government OF Particular Congregations Reason I. THE Churches gathered and constituted by the Apostles watered by Evangelists and Prophets and after planting and watering having Pastors and Teachers with all other Officers as they say set over them by the Apostles and their owne Elections Yet it is evident these Churches could not well stand nor subsist of themselves with all these Officers but many of them had beene much indangered and subject to have beene ruined if some others besides these Churches and Officers had not upon occasions interposed and that authorotatively as the Apostles Evangelists and Elders of other Churches as doth appeare by the Acts of the Apostles and by many Epistles as to Corinth Galatia Colossians Timothy Titus 15. Acts 2. Cor. 12. Chap. 20. ver. 24. 2. Cor. 13. Chap. 1. 2. 10. ver. The particulars whereof I shall evince more largely hereafter Now if these Primitive Churches who had all the officers and were setled by the Apostles in all poynts according to Christs order yet in those times could not doe well Independently how can wee thinke that any particular congregation in these times which cannot be so setled having no Apostles nor any infallible men to direct them can doe well without dependancie And though it will be said these extraordinary Officers be now ceased yet let them consider whether there is not need of some way to supply this want to the particular Churches now But if it be said that the ordinary Officers of Pastors Teachers Elders with the body of the Congregation will suffice for the governing every particular congregation Independantly To that I answer according to their Principles In the Apostles times there were all these Officers in particular Congregations and setled in a perfect way and yet for all this particular Churches needed a dependancy upon Apostles Evangelists Prophets and Presbyters of other Churches and Timothie and Titus are set over the Church of Ephesus and Crete now though some of these be ceased and so this power may be ceased as it was in particular men yet that the Congregations should not need it now in these times as well as then no solid Reason can be given but there is much more reason for it now which therefore must bee in some other way be it Synods and Councels to supply the defects of each particular by the Conjunction of the whole the whole helping every part and supplying what is lacking to it and this reason hath the more strength in it if we consider that the Churches in the Apostles times were Churches in Cities it being all one to say in every City or in every Church 1 Tit. 5. 14. Act. 23. which Churches also had good store of Preaching Ministers amongst them as appeares by Acts 13. v. 1. Act. 20. v. 36 37. Compared with ver. 28. So that in all cases of Doctrine and Discipline having many Ministers to resolve and determine matters and to have carryed them with the more gravity and authority they might have subsisted the better Independantly whereas most particular Congregations now have but few Ministers one or two nay according to their Principles there may be none nor no Officer at all and yet these Congregations must be Independant having all power and government Independantly before Officers as well as after Reason II. THat Governement and power which causes men to runne upon the manifest violation of the constant practice and example of the Churches during all the time of the Apostles and puts Churches upon practices that are absurd unreasonable and prejudiciall to the good of their Soules that government is not of divine Institution nor to be received but such is the Independant power and government of particular Congregations The major is of undoubted Truth and will be denyed by none for the minor I will prove it in these following Instances First their Independancy forces them either to have Ministers and Officers without being ordained contrary to the practice and examples of the Churches
Protest protested Now I desire them to satisfie me in their answers they give to these Reasons what grounds they have in Scriptures for these Practices for Ministers and Elders of severall Churches to meet together in greater Assemblies to heare the matters of a particular Church to try and judge Doctrines to admonish and reprove and to complaine and that matters may with common advise and consent be agreed upon for those Churches excepting onely generall rules and commands with the equity and Analogie of examples so that if these Acts and Workes may be done lawfully then the judging and determining of censures and the imposition of Orders and Decrees may be warrantable especially considering that the example of the Synod at Jerusalem ordained those decrees for to be kept of the Churches Act. 16. ver. 4. So that there was not onely discussion disputation common agreement but imposition of them besides these acts which you grant some of them be Acts of Power and government other of these Acts are Church censures as publicke reproving and admonition upon complaint and accusations as appeares by the 1 Tim. 5. 20. Mat. 18. ver. 15 16 17. So Amesius tells us that the parts of Discipline are brotherly correction and excommunication neither doth Discipline consist onely or chiefely in the thunder-bolt of excommunications but chiefely in Christian correction and full excomunication is not to be exercised unlesse to the sinne there be added contumacy And so admonitions and reproofes upon complaints are held Church censures by themselves Now then if Officers of other Congregations with their owne Officers may exercise these censures and that which is the chiefe part of Discipline and if members of other Churches ought by the Law of Communion of Churches to seeke advise helpe and to submit to admonitions and reproofes so as there may be good by them then also may they submit to the decreeing of Excommunications by Synods for if discipline may be lawfully exercised in that wherein it chiefely consists as admonitions and reproofes by Officers of other Churches towards members of such a congregation then may it also be exercised in that wherein it lesse consists and in this you are no more subject in conscience to a humane Ordinance then you are in publicke admonitions and reproofes Reason VIII THey doe grant and confesse that Churches of such a Communion and association if upon complaints of false Doctrines and evill Discipline made to Synods and Classes the Synods and classes convincing a Church of their errors admonishing and councelling them to reforme and to censure the obstinate persons among them if after all this they shall persist and goe on that then all these Churches ought to withdraw from them renounce communion and fellowship with them cast them off and declare so much to their severall Congregations Now I would know of them avoyding strife about names words and formes of Excommunication what is excommunication but this what is it to excommunicate or to be excommunicated but to reject persons and not to have communion with them neither in holy nor civill things familiarly for proofe of which see these places Matth. 18. v. 17. If he neglect to heare the Church let him be unto thee as a Heathen or Publican Which words are understood by all men that would found Discipline upon this place to be meant of excommunication So 2 Thes. 3. v. 6. 14 15. They are both understood of excommunication and they are expressed by keeping no company with them and by withdrawing communion from them So that if Officers and Churches may doe this lawfully then they may excommunicate members of other Congregations So Tit. 3. v. 10. Excommunication is expressed under rejecting so that our Independant Brethren should not upon word or names make so great a stirre in the Church and maintaine a controversie even to separated Assemblies when they doe yeeld the substance hence it is that one of them in that late Protestation Protested meaning I suppose no other than his fellowes plainely uses the word Excommunicate which was not without a providence to make them yeeld to the Truth not onely in the thing but in the very name and terme Many other Reasons against Independancy I could subjoyne to these as that this overthrowes Communion of Saints as the impossibility of this Government to any Christian Common-wealth or Nation c. Besides the taking of all their evasions to these Reasons which I easily know and foresee as also an answer to all their arguments and reasons for Independancy But intending this onely for a light skirmish before I draw up my Forces to the maine Battell and sending this forth but as a Scout to discover the strength or weakenesse of the other side I will adde no more onely that I doe not feare but that these few Souldiers will be able to returne againe alive and unwounded and be able to doe more service when they shall be joyned with others and formed into Battalio Reasons Against A Toleration of some Independant CHVRCHES IN ENGLAND Reason I. THough the Scriptures speake much for tolerating and bearing one with another in many things both in matters of opinion and practice as these places testifie Rom. 14. 1 2 3. 5. 13 14. verses Rom. 15. 1 2. 7. ver. Ephes. 4. 2 3. ver. Phil. 3. 15 16. ver. yet when differences come either to heresie or schismes and points be maintained by men so as to trouble and disturbe the Church then the Scriptures are expresse against their Toleration and sufferance requiring them who have power to hinder it as may be seene Rev. 2. 20. I have a few things against thee because thou sufferest that Woman Jesabel which calleth her selfe a Prophetesse to teach and to seduce my Servants 1 Tim. 1. 3. Timothie must charge some in Ephesus to teach no other Doctrine Tit. 1. 10. Men who are unruly and subvert whole Houses teaching things that they ought not for filthy lucres sake their mouthes must be stopped Tit. 3. 10. Titus must reject a man that is an Hereticke after the first and second admonition Rom 16. ver. 17. Paul presses upon the Romans by earnest beseeching to Marke them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them which is far from tolerating them So Paul writes to the Galathians of some who troubled their Church affirming Galath. 5. 10. 12. That he who troubleth you shall beare his judgement whosoever he be And I would they were even cut off which trouble you On which words Pareus gives the Exposition That to beare judgement is to be punished that is troublers and disturbers of a Church and people shall be punished first of God and then of the Church as also of the Magistrate and on the 12. verse Paul wishes they were cut off from the Church which rend the Church about circumcision who trouble and disturbe both the outward peace of the Church as also your
faith and consciences So Calvin on these two verses 10. 12. speakes thus But let them heare whoever give occasion of troubles to the Churches who loosen the unity of the Faith who breake peace and if they have any right understanding let them tremble at this for God doth pronounce by the mouth of Paul that no Authors of such offences shall be unpunished They teare and rend the Church about Circumcision I would have them to be cut off neither can this be condemned of cruelty as if it were against Charity for if we compare the Church with one man or a few how farre doth that outwaigh for it is cruell mercy which preferres one man or a few before the Church c. Now the Toleration desired to set up Churches independant and separated from the Churches in the Kingdome it is in it selfe a schisme a rent and a troubling disturbing of the Church so it will prove more and more and cannot be avoided according to their principles and practices hitherto a daily schisme and rent in this Church and an infinite disturbance both to the outward peace and to the faith and consciences of the people in this Kingdome The Church of England will be as much troubled by it as ever was the Church of Galatia which will appeare more fully in the following Reasons And therefore there ought to be no Toleration every one in their place ought to be against it the Magistrates Ministers and People The permitting and suffering of evill with the giving of any countenance to it when men have power to hinder it is to be partakers of their sinne 1 Tim. 5. 22. the second Epistle of John the 11. verse Qui non prohibet quando protest jubet Hee that doth not forbid when he hath power commands And let me aske the Independant Ministers a question or two Is it fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe and make Churches and then proceed to chuse whom they will for Ministers as some Taylor Felt-maker Button-maker men ignorant and low in parts by whom they shall be led into sinne and errors and to forsake the publicke assemblies where they may enjoy worthy and pretious Pastors after Gods owne heart who would feed them with knowledge and understanding If once there be a Toleration of Churches it will be thus but if they be hindered of all meetings this would be prevented So heresies also may take and spread in those separated assemblies before they can be knowne to the Magistrates and Ministers of other Churches Do not your hearts bleed within you to see and heare of this for the present in severall places and to thinke what will be hereafter O mine doth and thus if once there were a Toleration how many weake Brethren would perish for whom Christ dyed Reason II. THe toleration desired will not helpe to heale the Schismes and tents of this Church which is one speciall thing ought to be looked unto in this present reformation of the Church but will much foment and encrease it For whilst some congregations and they accounted of note both for ministers and people will not submit to the reformation and government setled by Law this will breed in the peoples mindes many thoughts Ex natura rei that this Church and government is not ordered according to the Word of God but is unlawfull else why should such men most eminent for gifts and graces as many people account them refuse to conforme to it and this will prove as great and as continued a division betweene the ministers and people of the Churches established by Law and the Churches tolerated as ever was betweene Conformists and Non-conformists about Ceremonies nay greater because these are of different Churches Congregations whereas Conformists and non-conformists held communion together in one Church though contending about these matters and that this will certainly be may be easily beleeved and foreseene upon these grounds 1. Because many of the people who yet be not in this Church way for their practise are yet much possessed with these principles of the Independant way as the onely way of God and are much looking towards it 2. The mindes of multitudes of the professors in England and especially in this City are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church as accounting some singular perfection to be in that which is new and held but by a few 3. Though the Ministers of the Congregations tolerated would promise not to preach of these points in publicke nor in private to speake of them which yet they will not be tyed unto yet their people many of them both men and women are so strangely bold pragmaticall and so highly conceited of their way as the Kingdome of Christ and the onely way of Christ that what out of those principles and what by vertue of their relations in friendship kindred c. there would be continuall drawing of many and many falling to them 4. The prime principles of this Church way as namely independancie liberty power of government and rule to be in the people are mighty pleasing to flesh and blood people generally chiefely meane persons and such who have beene kept under affecting Independancie Liberty Power and Rule 5. The grant of a toleration will be made use of by them for the strengthning of their way to be the truth and will be interpreted in this sense that they had such grounds and reasons as the ablest Ministers in the Kingdome could not answer and therefore were content they should have a toleration else if they could have satisfied them what needed a toleration onely though they could not answer their Reasons and had nothing to say yet they would not come to them and this will be spoken of by their followers that we would not bee convinced though we could say nothing against it all which will as a meanes to encrease their side occasion continuall strifes divisions heart-burnings both of Ministers against Ministers and people against people so that in stead of Union and peace in the Kingdome and Church we shall have notwithstanding all reformation a greater division and rent succeede than ever before Reason III. THis toleration will not onely breede Divisions and Schismes disturbing the peace and quiet of Churches and Townes by setting them who are of different families and in more remote relations one against another but it will undoubtedly cause much disturbance discontent and divisions in the same families even betweene the nearest relations of husbands and wives Fathers and children brothers and sisters Masters and Servants The husband being of one Church the wife of another the father of one the childe of another the master of the Church established by Law the servant of the tolerated one brother of one Church and another brother of another and so all Oeconomicall relations and duties will be much disturbed when as they of one house
of them and enter into Covenant among themselves and be a Church and live without Ministers and Sacraments along time upon pretence that they can finde none fit for them yet as these Independant men doe and when they doe chuse then chuse such of their owne opinions and wayes and so they may live together at liberty in ways pleasing themselves neither can this helpe it to say this belongs onely to Saints 't is their Prerogative Royall and not others for all Heretickes Sectaries or Libertines will count themselves Saints as well as our Independant men they may be their owne Judges and will say that they are Saints as well as you say for the Ministers and Magistrates of the Kingdome shall not have the power to determine who be Saints and who not so that if the State should tolerate the Independancie they know not what they tolerate but in the belly of this Independancie they tolerate and make way for Libertinisme Heresie and what ever Satan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach and fall into Reason X. I Propound this question what these men would have in this toleration whether the number of these Independant Congregations that they would have tolerated should be five or six Congregations onely and no more or shall the number be left undetermined to bee free to multiply into as many Churches as they please if the number must be determined this will overthrow their principles and Churches quickely as when one Church breakes into two or three as upon their principles it must and oft times doth as at Amsterdam into two at Roterdam also and at London and when one of the Tolerated Churches breakes into two or three which shall be reckoned that that is the Church allowed of by the State for each part will pretend to it but now if they say the number must be left undetermined then we may quickely have halfe a dozen of their Churches in some one Parish of a City or Towne nay two or three Churches in a place sprung out of one of their owne and we may have every where three or foure men of an opinion differing from others to goe make a different Church and so they will encrease in infinitum and there will be no end of divisions and subdivisions But before I conclude I will answer five or sixe Reasons that be commonly alledged by them for their Toleration in this Kingdome Reason I. THis is no more than what is granted to the French and Dutch who live amongst us and have Churches and Government of their owne way exempt from the Government established Answer The case is quite different and that will appeare by these particulars First Those French and Dutch Protestants have nothing nor desire nothing but that which is Originally according to the Church and people they were borne and brought up in they enjoy nothing as Contra-distinct to the Protestants of France and Holland but the Independant men move for that which is Contra-distinct to their owne Church and Nation Yea and to all reformed Churches Secondly This liberty was granted by our pious Princes in times of persecution to the Protestants that so they might have here the exercise of their Religion in their owne tongue when they could not enjoy it at home and it hath beene of great use upon occasions in this way ever since for a refuge to the persecuted Protestants but what is your case to this you may enjoy the Protestant Religion in this Land and that by the Law and Authority of King and Parliament what colour then that you should move for an exemption of your Churches Thirdly these French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government and in one way of Discipline with the Kingdome if there be a reformation which you will not Fourthly These Churches are not in an Independant government neither doe they hold your Principles of the Church but be as much against them as we they doe admit of appeales and in all businesse of greater moment have Synods Fifthly They being strangers amongst us of different Nations and Tongues not having those relations of Kindred and acquaintance with us but keeping themselves for the most part among themselves there is not that danger of drawing away the people nor of causing Schismes as from you that are of our Nation and tongue neither have they or doe ever vent principles against our Church and Government as you doe but content themselves with their owne way they neither can nor will admit ours to be members of their Congregations in respect our people understand not their language so that the people are so farre from leaving our Churches and becomming members of theirs as that our people cannot so much as resort to their Congregations to heare them Preach they Preaching in a language the people understand not all which is quite contrary with you Sixthly there is a great reason and necessity of allowing them Churches and places to Preach and bee by themselves because many of them understand not English at all and for the benefit of strangers of their Religion who come over who else could not enjoy the publicke exercise of their Religion at all and they may well be allowed some Discipline among themselves in respect they maintaine al their own poore not charging the Parishes where they live with them all which will not hold as a ground for Toleration of Independancy Their meetings by themselves are not upon your principles of a Church or Church government but because of different language c. Reason II. VVE seeke no more then what is granted us in Holland and what wee may enjoy there in a Countrey where we be strangers 1. Answer If your toleration in Holland be a good ground for a toleration here that we should doe so because Holland doth it then there should be a Toleration for all Religions amongst us as Jewes Anabaptists c. And if you would have it so speake out plainely there are some of you have whispered it and often spoke of it in private in the answer you give to these reasons Speake your mind and if you justifie a Toleration of all Religions I will discusse that question with you and take it up against you as not fit neither in Divinity nor policy as both against Rules of Conscience and Policy Secondly There may be a Toleration of you in Holland with much more safety to the government established and peace of that Church then can be here in this Kingdome the people of that Country not understanding your language having little or no relation to you nor you to them of kindred friendship where as it is quite otherwise here Thirdly That people of the Hollanders generally are an industrious people minding their businesses profits and keeping to what 's established by their Lawes not troubling their heads so much with other points of Religion but here in England and especially in the City of London and great Townes
many Professors are more idle and busie bodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. ver. Very wanton also in their Wits affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held Fourthly Holland tolerates you and many others but it is more upon grounds and necessitie of worldly respects because of that benefit of excise towards the maintenance of warres which they have from them who live amongst them so that they are paid well for it so that in this they measure things rather Vina Mercatoria than by the rule of Scriptures and were it not for that and such respects which the state of that State hath put them upon they would never grant tolerations but there is not the same reason here in any respect our riches and strength standing in one way of Religion and not in tolerations Reason III. IF wee may not have a toleration and a liberty of erecting some congregations among you this will force us to leave the Kingdome that wee may have the liberty of our consciences and if you doe what cruelty is this 1. Answer There is no need of a Toleration for you and yet no need of forcing you to leave the Kingdome that you may enjoy your Consciences and that will appeare if you calmely and meekely be content to heare Reasons and Principles which you your selves agree to as namely you hold that our Churches be true Churches our Ministers true Ministers Ordinances of word Sacraments true and that you can partake with us in our Congregations in all Ordinances even in comming to the Lords supper provided that scandalous and ignorant persons be kept backe and ceremonies removed why then should you desire to set up other Churches as different from ours you can have but Word Prayer Sacraments and Discipline in your owne that you may enjoy in ours is this any good reason for you to leave the Kingdome I pray consider well some of your Ministers at first comming over said as I have beene told from good hands they could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst us upon the reformation hoped for and they could yeild to Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods so not enjoyned to submit to it as Jure divino but since they have gotten some more hopes I know not upon what grounds they are now very hot for a Toleration and will not heare of growing into one body with us Secondly Seeing our Churches Ministers and Ordinance be true for you to erect new and to withdraw from such Churches though suppose they were in some things defective and not every way so rightly ordered as were to be desired I know can never be answered to God especially you having not the power and authority from God to order those Churches otherwise and I desire you againe and againe to waigh whether you may not live in the Communion of such Churches where some thing may be yet desired that is not where it is not in your power to helpe but that you are bound by the Command of God in such cases either to leave the Kingdome for that liberty or else being private men in a Land where true Churches Ministers and Ordinances are to goe and set up divided Churches in that Land both against the Lawes of the Land and to the scandall of all the Churches I beseech you thinke upon it what is become of Fraterna toleratio and of giving scandall not to one Brother but to thousands of Congregations of Christ And whether nothing wanting in matter of Order may be Tolerated so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull As for those Brownists whose Principles and Consciences though very erroneous hold that we have no true Church Ministery Ordinances but all is Antichristian they have a better warrant to set up new Assemblies or to leave the Kingdome to enjoy their way but as for you to withdraw and set up separated assemblies upon no greater grounds or causes can never be justified and I shall be ready upon that point to deale with any of you and for your better satisfaction for the present I wish the conscientious and sober Ministers to read two pages in Master Robinsons Apologie Chap. 12. De Eccle. Anglic. pag. 86 87. Wherein he grants that Churches may not be departed from for circumstantiall corruptions nor for many inconveniencies affirming that it is neither Christian prudence nor charity to doe so he shewes it is not an intolerable evill though an evill to be lamented for evill men to be suffered in the Church nor that Discipline as it is called or that Ecclesiasticall government instituted by Christ is neglected or violated but that 's it that the plaine contrary to it should be established by Law and so he goes on Now supposing our reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ and the most that can be said supposing your principles the Truth though that 's denyed by us there will be but evill men suffered and not men of the most profligate life and Discipline instituted willbe but neglected or violated not that which is quite contrary as established by Law take place Thirdly You your selves live in and are members of such Churches and thinke it unlawfull to forsake them where for many yeares together you beare with defects and want some parts of government and Officers appointed by Christ more materiall then will be in ours upon a reformation as namely without Pastors Elders Widowes many yeares together without Sacraments a long time without censures especially unlesse you allow people to be the instruments and exercise Excommunication without having Ordination of Officers without prophecying also many yeares Why can you not beare with some defects in our Churches and be content to waite some yeares till God either give you light to see your mistakes or else till we have more light to perfect what is wanting You tell us that some things may be omitted for a time as Circumcision was in the Wildernesse and that affirmatives doe not binde too alwayes and that exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it is evident it will not be for edification to the Church but destruction what shall hinder then but that you ought to incorporate into our Assemblies though something yet were to be desired there is nothing contrary that will be put upon you nor quite another thing Fourthly You may safely be members of our congregations in the reformation of us and in these times because you may without danger shew your dislike and speake against scandalous persons and against the fault of the Church if they admit such to the Sacrament which being done your selves grant you may communicate with them so a Letter sent from Roterdam grants And I have heard this alledged as the reason why you first left our Churches but that reason now ceases seeing either such persons will be wholly kept away or else you may
protest against them though I must tell you that practise you judge your selves tyed to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation Fifthly There is a medium betweene persecution as you terme it and a publicke Toleration a middle way betweene not suffering men to live in the Land and the granting them a liberty of separated Assemblies so that there is no necessity either of leaving the Land or of enjoying exempt Congregations for there is a third datur tertium as for Instance Persons may be tolerated to inhabit in a Land to enjoy their Lands and liberties and not be compelled to professe and practise things which are against their consciences It is one thing to be forced and compelled positively to doe things against conscience and another thing not to be suffered the publicke practise of some things in separated Congregations as to illustrate it thus suppose the Papists upon their petitions to the Parliament should have those statutes repealed which enjoynes them to come to our Churches which they say is against their consciences though indeed they are bound by the command of God to come and ought by the Magistrate to be compelled to come as Doctor Davenant hath cleerely showed yet the granting the Papists a Toleration of the publicke exercise of their Religion to the scandall of the Reformed Churches and dishonour of God were quite another thing insomuch as the Papists though they petition the first upon deepe Protestation of living peaceably and according to the Lawes of the Land yet they move not for the last so I judge you may live in the Land freely and enjoy your liberties and estates comming to our Churches enjoying the ordinances and are like never to be compelled to professe or practise what is against your judgements the greatest inconvenience is but the forbearing of something you would have which considering the questionablenesse of the thing and the many other evills which would attend it if you should enjoy it you may in point of conscience be well satisfied without it so that consider well and you may find a medium betweene leaving the Land and enjoying a Toleration of exempt Congregations Sixthly If all these former answers satisfie you not fully because though these things be true yet besides these Ordinances and Ministers you must be in a Church way and Fellowship as now you are then know according to your Principles of a visible Church laid downe by Master Robinson and by your selves in all your Manuscripts you may enjoy your way in having severall visible Churches and that without that offence and scandall to Magistrates and Churches and yet neither leave the Kingdome nor have a Toleration and that I will demonstrate thus two or three Saints joyning together in a Covenant make a Church a greater number is not required neither Officers to the essence of a Church a greater addition of company to this two or three though they may make for the well being and flourishing of the Church yet they are not of the essence of the Church Now then every one of you in your owne Families as the Husband Wife Children of age and Servants who are visible Saints may be joyned in covenant to walke in Gods wayes and to watch over one another so that here is a Church and every Master in his Family may set up holy exercises and exercise Discipline among themselves for their Families and thus in the Church that is in their house they may exercise what Discipline they judge is wanting in ours so that comming to our Churches to the Word Prayer Sacraments they may serve God in their owne Families among themselves in a Church way in wayes of admonition reproofe and other censures nay every Church Family or most of them may have Officers also amongst them the Ministers Families may have a Pastor or Teacher each Minister being made Pastor of his owne Family chosen also he may be by his Family who also may Preach and instruct his Family and exercise Discipline amongst them great Families as Gentlemen or Citizens may themselves be teachers of their Families according to your Principles or may have some in their Families fit to be chosen Elders and Teachers to them especially such of them who keepe Schollers in their houses and still chosen by the Church of this Family But if there be some Church Families who have none fit for Officers to their Church which can hardly be in these kindes of Churches yet this is not of the essence of the Church But as for single persons as Young men and Mayds who are of your judgement if you aske what they shall doe seeing they have no Families and cannot joyne two or three in a Family to make a Church I answer they may be Servants unto men of their owne judgement and live in the Families of their owne way and so may be in a Church And thus you may enjoy your owne way without scandall or division the Lawes not forbidding or medling what men doe in this kind as how oft men pray in their owne Families or catechise them or whom they shut out from their Prayers and holy duties But if it be said how shall such as are bred Schollers the Ministers of this way be maintained it is not being Ministers to their owne Family will maintaine them I answer I have taken care to show them a way for maintenance also how they may enjoy their Country their Consciences and maintenance that so they need not be forced to seeke a Toleration of Churches that they may be maintained and that is thus Supposing they will not take Pastorall charges of Parishes but onely be Pastors of the Church in their house yet holding it lawfull as they doe to Preach in our Congregations they may take Lectures amongst us and so be maintained there will be want of many men for Lectures setled by gifts of the dead and then no question but the government of the Church which shall be established by Law will be so moderate that if men hold the maine points of Doctrine with the Church be pious in life and peaceable so as not to Preach nor speake against what 's established by Law nor doe not make Schismes to goe and set up separated Assemblies which practises caused troubles in the Church they may enjoy all liberty and as many Scriptures show freedome though in point of opinion and judgement there may be some difference from things established by Law for I suppose we shall not have subscriptions enjoyned to formes of government and Discipline but onely to Doctrines and that also in maine and cleere poynts so that by all this you may apprehend how without a Toleration you may in a secret and peaceable way enjoy your Church fellowship with maintenance also What ever else you seeke for by a Toleration of many Families to make a Church is but for the more comfort
flourishing of your way but not as that which is necessary to your way now in a busines which is but of conveniency not of necessity according to your principles though you had a liberty priviledge to enjoy it yet where so muchscandal may come of your liberty and it cannot be avoyded for though one of the more sober and conscientious Ministers and people could use it better yet most would abuse it as the rigid Brownists Anabaptists and many weake Christians you should not use it but forbeare so the Apostle teaches us 1 Cor. 8. v. 9. So Gal. 5. v. 13. 14. 15. Now a scandall is some word or action giving an occasion of ruine to a weake brother which practice of yours would certainely doe now to the avoiding the scandall of the weake All those things are to be done or omitted which may be done or omitted without sinne as Amesius grants lib. 5. de Cons. cap. 11. So Gerson speakes part 2. Reg. moral A man is bound to desist from every act to which be is not necessarily tyed where upon good grounds the scandall of the weake is feared Now the setting up of separated Assemblies in this Church may be omitted without sinne neither are ye necessarily tyed to it as will appeare by this sixth Answer Besides considering all the former answers wherein you see what you may enjoy in this Kingdome in liberty of Ordinances and Consciences you are not tyed for some matter of convenience which you might enjoy in another Kingdome to withdraw from this Church and to leave your owne Country for your satisfaction in which point I had rather Doctor Amesius should speake then I to whom I referre you who in his cases of Conscience about this point saith thus A man may keepe Communion with a Church wherein wicked men are suffered and good men depressed and that upon severall reasons amongst others upon this ground Because from such a Church to a purer there is oft times no removing without great dammages and hinderance which ought to be avoyded alwayes as much as may be without sinne yea such dammages and losses doe sometimes cause that an affirmative precept ceases to bind A man may joyne himselfe and live in such a Church in which many defects are necessarily to be tolerated yea and joyne to that Church where the power of removing scandalls and casting out wicked men is taken away if he cannot without great prejudice and hurt goe to a freer Church and men sinne not either in joyning to such a Church or continuing in it But yet further he grants a man may be a member of such a Church in which some things instituted by Christ are wanting and where some things appointed by men are introduced So that I beseech you Brethren lay all these six answers together and consider sadly whether God requires of you unlesse you may have a Toleration to leave the Kingdome to run many hazards and dangers for Churches after your way when as you may enjoy so much at home without a Toleration of exempt Assemblies as I have opened in these six answers Seventhly If notwithstanding all that is said to you you will not be satisfied without setting up Churches against the Church it were better for you to leave the Kingdome and to returne backe to your charges and families into Holland and others of your minde who cannot be satisfied to leave the Land and to goe to New England or else where rather then by erecting of Churches by Toleration or without it to disturbe the good and peace of three Kingdomes and this will be no great harme to many of you for you may easily returne being able to live and subsist there comfortably as you say your selves and for my owne part were I of your way so farre as I know my owne heart I had rather goe to the uttermost parts of the Earth though to live in a hard and meane condition than to disturbe the peace or good of three Kingdomes as you would doe by a Toleration Looke what is commonly said praestat ut pereat unus quam unit as It is better that one perish than unity so I say it is farre better a few Ministers and people wanted some outward accommodations of their owne Countrey than that the good of the whole should be so in danger neither is there any cruelty or persecution in it as they will be apt to phrase it for if the purity of Doctrine holinesse of life peace of the Church cannot be preserved by such a Toleration as I have in part shewed and can make it plaine then it ought not to be and I will speake for my selfe and in the behalfe of hundreds of my Brethren painefull in the Ministery who have borne the brunt of the times that we professe we will submit to the reformation and government established by Law which we doubt not but will be very blessed and glorious but however things should fall out we would either patiently tolerate what is not in our spheare to reforme or quietly sit downe in the Kingdome or else with leave betake our selves to some other Countryes being fully resolved in our Consciences that circumstances in and about externall formes of Government in matter of order can never be sufficient grounds to us to set up Churches against a Church where true Churches are and so to prove meanes of eternall divisions and heart-burnings between Ministers and people Reason IIII. I But if these Ministers and some such Churches be not tolerated they are afraid that in time they shall draw most of the good people out of the Land after them First Answer I heare one of them say so but I suppose they rather hope then feare it and this plainely shewes they have a good conceit of themselves and of their owne way Secondly For their feare we feare too but not as they doe but this that if they have a toleration they may draw away many good people especially if the ceremonies and the Liturgy stand in full force and their Churches tolerated they will make brave worke in a short time though I am confident God will preserve many judicious advised Christians from their way notwithstanding but let there be no Toleration granted and they once well shipt and a reformation amongst us in government and Ministers that feare is over with me we feare it not that many will follow them for when that which first bred these men the violent pressing of ceremonies the casting out of good Ministers the many notorious persons suffered in the Church without all censure shall be removed many will not be bred and others will be satisfied and I doubt it not but that the godly and painefull Ministers of the Church of England may and will both out-Preach them and out-live them and may be compared with them for all excellencies and abilities for my part I shall speake as I finde I knew many of them long before they fell to this
way and know them since and have not seene any of them better or more profitable in life and Ministry for their charge onely this I am sure of for some of them whereas whilst of the Church of England they Preacht often now seldome they goe looser in their apparell and haire they take lesse care for the publicke in things that concerne the glory of God and Salvation of mens soules their principles spirits grow very narrow like their Churches they grow more strange reserved subtile in a word they minde little else but the propagation of their Independant way as The Protestation Protested witnesseth abundantly and I shall speake my Conscience from the experience I have had of many of them having studyed and observed them and their writings and never saw nor heard of any men who fell fully to that way that ever had so large a spirit for good afterwards to take that care of propagating the Gospell and preaching the Word to men without I never knew any man that ever God honoured so much after he fell to those principles as before though the same persons before have beene active for God doing famously and worthily yet when they fall to this way they either blemish themselves or doe little and the truth is those principles of separation be such as God did never honour much the men who held them looke what is sayd by them of Episcopacie that the very calling of it hath such a malignity in it that it hurts the best men that are placed in those chaires that I may say truely of this way there is a malignity cleaves to it hurting the men that fall to it by altering their spirits and contracting their hearts though many of them continue good in the maine Reason V. THis is no other but envie in the Ministers that makes them against a toleration because they feare their people will desert them and come to us being so pure in Ordinances and Churches and thus The Protestation Protested speakes and t is frequently in some of their mouths Answ. 1. It is not out of envy to their ministers and Christians for first I hold their practise sinfull and unwarrantable to separate from our Churches and to erect such Congregations and therefore I speake against it and that by the helpe of God I shall make good in a following discourse 2. It cannot be counted envie in Ministers to be unwilling to have their flockes and people fall from them is it envie in a father to be unwilling to have his children stollen from him and tempted away by strangers I aske such of you who be fathers if you would be willing to have your Children forsake you and that with renouncing the womb that bare them the paps that gave them sucke throwing dirt into the face of Father and Mother Now this is the case for Ministers to have their spirituall children whom they have begotten to God who are their comfort and the fruite of all their Labours to fall from them and to despite them afterwards cannot be pleasing neither ought it looke what the Jewes gave out falsely concerning the naturall body of Christ that his Disciples came by night and stole it away that may be sayd truely of his Mysticall body Beleevers you by your tolerations would have your Disciples come by night and steale them away and therefore we ought not to sleepe but to watch against you Answ. 3. I envie you not but pity and love you and would not have you have such a sword as a Toleration put into your hands though some amongst you perhaps might use it better to hurt your selves with and to have such an occasion to run upon the rocke of Schisme and to goe out of the way dayly turning into errours on the right hand Answ. 4. This Author would intimate and make the world beleeve as if only the honest soules were with them and would be for their way but as for them who be against their way and toleration they are not such honest soules but let them know honest soules are not onely with them for in the Church of England there ever have beene and are as honest ministers and people that have rejected your way as ever any that fell to it nay the greatest Non-conformists and most able in that way have writ the most against you and laboured upon all occasions to preserve people from falling to you as Mr Cartwright Mr Brightman Mr Parker Mr Hildersham Dr Ames Mr Bradshawe Mr Ball Mr Dod Mr Baines with many others Reason VI I But they be good men and men of great gifts and therefore they should bee tolerated to have such Churches t is pity they should leave the land and we lose their prayers Answ. 1. The better men they be and the more able the worse to set up separated Churches for they will the more endanger the peace of the Kingdome and make the Schismes greater 2. For their prayers we may have the benefit of them as well when they are absent as present and some of them have sayd they pray'd more for England when out of it than when in it 3. They left the Kingdome when it was in greatest danger and in most neede of helpe and provided for themselves to keepe in a whole skin and without them we stood here in the gap and prevailed with God and rather than to buy their company at such a rate as a Toleration it is better to want it as I shewed before and I question not but the Kingdome will doe well enough though they returne and the better unlesse they cease sowing of their principles 4. For this objection of being good men I shall answere it at large in another Tractate wherein I shall minde men of many dangers that may arise to them from good and eminent men and fully shew what little strength there is in that Reason clearing also many things in reference to that Objection Quest I but may not conscientious men who agree with us in the maine in points of Doctrine and Practise be tolerated and spared in some things wherein they differ from what is commonly received Answ. Yes I doe in my judgement much allow of bearing and forbearing one another in many differences of opinions and practises so as Christians ought not to judge nor censure one another nor refuse communion and fellowship by not admitting men into their Churches and to the Ordinances upon such points which is the great fault of the Independant Churches denying communion to many Saints for some differences in Judgement about Church government and Orders which practise of theirs is expresse against the 15. Rom. 7. neither to force men to change their mindes and opinions by casting them violently out of the ministry and Church which was the practise of many in these late times and hath caused so many Schismes and stirres amongst us I approve not such practises but desire to be a follower and lover of all