where they live because of the Ceremonies and subjection to Bishops were they all Schismaticks too Doe not men ordinarily in London and elsewhere for the outward advantage of trade or otherwise leave one Church and goe to another and may not a man for any advantage of enjoyment of Ordinances that he cannot have in the Church he formerly lived in not in that purity but that it will be sinne in him to continue in it remove to another Church and what if his dwelling be not removed to the other side of the street does that make it Schisme Many of the converted Jewes were a great while in Church-Communion before they saw their liberty to converse with the Gentiles though converted also it was their fault that they would not joyne with the Gentiles being Christians the partition wall being broken downe yet they were never accounted Schismatiques for this fault of theirs whereas now if a man lives in a parish and does not joyn in Church fellowship in that parish he is branded for a Schismatique What hurt the abuse of words and among others this of Schisme hath done in the Church we all know When men who give good testimony of their godlinesse and peaceablenesse after all meanes used in faithfulnesse to know the mind of Christ they cannot without sin to them though it be through weaknesse enjoy all the ordinances of Christ and partake in all the duties of Worship as members of that Congregation where their dwelling is they therefore in all humility and meeknesse desire they may not live without the ordinances of Christ all their dayes but for the enjoyment of them may joyne in another Congregation yet so as not condemning those Churches they joyne not with as false but still preserve all Christian communion with the Saints as members of the same body of Christ of the Church Catholique and joyn also with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as they are able If this be called Schisme it is more then yet I have learned or then I beleeve M. Edwards can teach me Page 98. he throwes me his glove challenging me into the field to try his valour with me in this point Ans When I have a mind to play at Brawle and Wrangle I will take up his glove He hath given an experiment of his wrangling faculty in the maintenance of the charge he gives me of being guilty of the 150. Error mentioned in the first part of his Gangraena namely Whatsoever errors or miscarriages in Religion the Church should beare withall in men continuing them still in communion with them these the Magistrate should beare with continuing them in the Kingdome or Common-wealth in the enjoyment of the liberty of subjects this with M. Edwards is a huge error Whereas he passes almost all his other errors without any animadversion he must needs have one here he cannot passe so foule an error as this without confuting it presently see what his Confutation is Those sayes he who out of conscience are not satisfyed in taking up Armes against Armies raised by a Prince the Church will not deale with for this but the Magistrate may To this M. John Goodwin answered that I before had said that in matters of civil justice between man and man there the plea of conscience would not free a man from punish-went if he offends but for matters of Religion there what ever charge the Magistrate hath over men it is not more then the charge the Church hath in its kind therefore where the Church should beare with men the Magistrate should Now the man comes in with his refutation and instances in a businesse of taking up Armes as if this did not come under the Head spoken of before namely the matters of civil justice not a matter of Religion as distinct from civil justice and his Reply is onely this as if an erroneous conscience did not make things the Magistrate accounts matters of State matters of Religion and the Magistrate also reckon many things to be matters of State which many consciences account high matters in Religion Ans What a bable is this who would spend his time in replying to it If M. Edwards his valour in dispute may be judged by this we need never feare encountring with him I say that in matters of Religion as distinct from matters of civil justice there the Magistrates power extends not beyond the Churches and he comes and tells us that an erroneous conscience may account matters of State matters of Religion what then if he accounts them to be matters of Religion does this alter the nature of the thing what ever he accounts yet if he does offend against civill justice he is to be punished and whatsoever the Magistrate accounts yet if the thing in its owne nature be not against civill justice but onely against some rule of Religion surely he is not to punish in his way further then the Church may in her way who speaks of what one man accounts or what another man accounts the things must be judged according to what they are in their owne nature if M. Edwards his threatning Peece doe no better feats then his Animadversion and Reply to M. John Goodwin hath done that which he judges an Error remaines still a Truth he must blot it out of his Catalogue of Errors his conscience must tell him there is one Error lesse then his reckoning but I would be loth to be writing or waiting till Master Edwards his conscience be convinced or if it be till he confesses it to be There is onely one passage more that I shall need to take notice of in his last Book and something he hath of it in his former namely my conformity in the Bishops times This conformity he speaks of was ten yeeres since and though I did conforme to some of the old Ceremonies in which I acknowledge my sinne I doe not cast those things off as inconvenient or discountenanced by the State onely but as sinfull against Christ yet I think there can hardly be found any Man in that Diocesse where I was who was so eyed as I was that did conforme lesse then I did if he conformed at all As for the new conformity God kept me from it and my sinne in the old makes me to be of the more forbearing spirit towards those who now differ from me I see now what I did not and I blesse God I saw it before the times changed and others even some who scorne at new light must acknowledge they see now what a while since they saw not why then should they or I fly upon our Brethren because they see not what we think we see Oh how unbeseeming is it for such who conformed to old and new Ceremonies now to be harsh and bitter in the least degree against their Brethren who differ from them when they doe differ so much from what they were themselves but a while since I some of them
while amazed at the providence of God that at such a time a Messenger should be sent to me about such an errand my heart God knowes exceedingly rejoyced in this call of his I presently told him I saw God much in it and dared not in the least to gainsay it yea that my heart did much close with it yet desired to see God a little further in it this only I required that he should go or send to the Church and return my answer with desire that because most of them knew me they should give me their call under their own bands and then there would be nothing wanting that I knew but I was theirs and thus we parted In this my heart was much eased now seeing a cleare hand of God taking me off from temptations that I was affraid might otherwise have stucke upon me but this I kept to my selfe Now as God would have it three or foure dayes after this a friend meets me and tels me that such a man reported of me that in a conference about the Scots justifying them in what they did I should speake such things as might bring me into trouble After I heard this I could not but take notice of Gods hand that surely now God intended to open the dore very wide for that call I had to Rotterdam yet because whether I went out or stayed in the Land I desired to cleare my selfe as much as could be I went to this accuser with one of the Gentlemen who was at our whole discourse we both laboured to convince him that he had mistook what was said in that Conference that certainly there was no such thing as he had reported though at first there appeared a very evill spirit in him as if he intended evill against me yet I went freely up and downe for a fortnight or three weeks after in the Countrey and got another Gentleman who also heard all that Conference to speak with him at the last he began to recant of what he had said and promised to me and one of the Gentlemen who had heard all our former discourse that he would take me off what he could that he would satisfie all that he had told any thing against me unto and now tell them that he was mistaken in me and that things were not so bad as he apprehended and withall said he made no doubt but to set me right againe After this I hoped all would blow over my Lord of Warwick falling sick at London sent for me I came up to him continuing with him a fortnight or three weeks longer going freely up and downe the City my Lord knew all the businesse and made no question but all was over Now I being as I hoped set free from my Accuser the Messenger from Rotterdam comes to me againe with an answer to what I had desired shewing me how the Church there had met and had sent a call to me in writing under the Elders hands with many other hands in the name of the Church upon which we agreed upon the day when and the place where we should meet in Norfolke to make a full conclusion and accordingly to take order for our voyage Now within three or foure dayes after this second call this businesse that we thought had been dead breaks forth againe afresh I had intelligence from a Minister in Essex that the truth was he that accused me before had dealt treacherously with me and the businesse grew to a height it was come to the then Lord Treasurer Upon this still I saw my call the clearer and fuller and at my fore-appointed time went into Norfolke where I met with the Messenger and concluded the going into Holland Though my call by this was clearer yet the thought of going out of the Kingdome thus was grievous to me for I knew I must never see England againe times continuing as then they were and no man living could have imagined that alteration that after fell out Now I appeale to M. Edwards had he knowne all this which if it had pleased him he might have done for I sent to him to tell him I would satisfie him about this business would he have made such a relation as he hath done to such a purpose as he hath done for of all the things he hath against me the manner of my going out of the Kingdome in the way that he relates it is the greatest aspersion that is upon me when indeed it was one of the most mercifull providences of God to me that ever befell me in all my life wherein I saw as cleerly an eye of God watching over me in particular for good as ever in any thing I know not what a bold daring spirit whose aims are to asperse men would have done in this case had this I now relate been knowne as it was to many but ingenuity certainly where it had been in the least degree of it would have abhorred to have done as M. Edwards hath done The Lord set his conscience upon him rebuke him and be mercifull to him in this thing His second thing he hath against me in his Antiapologia is his Charge for my Preaching for the Congregationall way as page 216. he sayes I preached at Mildreds Breadstreet against Nationall Churches under the New Testament and for the way of their particular Churches Ans But what I said for that way he mentions not and I remember not therefore I can say nothing to it but concerning a Nationall Church I doe remember I said something it was in the time of the Prelates my speech was directed against them it was the day the first Protestation was taken because a great argument they use for their power over Nations is from the power of the High Priest over the whole Nation of the Jewes I said that we were freed from the Paedagogie of the Jewes and now there were no Nationall Churches by institution as the Jewes were mentioning these 3. things 1. There are no nationall Officers as they had 2. No Nationall Worship as they had 3. It was not sufficient now to make a member of the Church because one is by birth of this or any other Nation as then it was because one was borne of the Nation of the Jewes And is this a Doctrine that will not goe downe with a Presbyterian Surely it must be a Prelaticall Presbyterian who cannot digest this I am confident all the Presbyterian Churches in the World will acknowledge what I said here to be true That we may call the Church in England a Nationall Church because of the many Saints in it who are of the body of Christ I deny not nor ever did but that it is by the institution of Christ formed into one politicall Church as the Nation of the Jewes was this is no Independency to deny where are any particular men standing Church Officers to the whole Nation by Divine institution what Nationall worship hath Christ instituted doth our Birth in the Nation
they will lye right enough as they have done to many Presbyteriall Brethren Although nothing under heaven would more rejoyce me then to help to find out any expedient whereby I might agree with my Brethren who are for the Classicall and Provinciall Presbyteries yet I must needs professe that all that I have hitherto heard in the Assembly or elsewhere after I hope sincere labouring with my heart and with God that I might know his truth hath not shaken nor caused any Scruple in those Principles my conscience hath beene engaged in against the extending that ruling power of Pastors and Teachers our Brethren challenge beyond their charge of feeding by the Word and Sacraments And though I be in Mr. Edwards his thoughts the worst of all the Apologists when I am against him which I dare not gainesay yet when I doe any thing that pleases him then he calls me a chiefe man among the dissenting Brethren as pag. 212. of his second part of his Gangraena where he cites my speech lately printed made in Guildhall for the Scots By which speech Mr. Edwards and all men may see that difference in judgement hinders not me from giving that honour to men that God would have given them neither takes it off my heart from them But am I of the same minde still Ans Whatsoever change there may be yet the difference of our judgements in point of Presbytery makes not the change for I then apprehended them at as great a distance from me in that as now I doe But still I doe and cannot but as long as I live honour them and blesse God for them as the great instruments of the first turne of the streame of oppression and Tyrannie whatever becomes of me I have learned to honour those whom God honours Let me have the same principles that then I went upon which in me are not changed I could make such another speech for them What should I follow this vaine man in any farther particulars both in his last and in his former books he vents a very angry spirit against me though never provoked by me which I have often wondered at why man what is the matter what have I done what comes it to more then the old non-conformists not communicating with the Churches here because they could not joyne in kneeling their scruple lay in one thing mine in another But though many of our Brethren thought and I beleeve still doe thinke they were in an error yet their spirits were calme and quiet towards them What is it that raises the wind against me and others suppose we be in an error except it be the hope that these men have of having power in their owne hands which formerly they had not I have hitherto abstained from that which is most provoking What have I then done that thus angers the man He is displeased that I preach so much that I have so many Lectures I will not tell of the Livings preferments Sequestrations Lectures that those of the Presbyteriall judgement have What would he have mee lay downe a Lecture and gather a Church This would anger him more Though I sought none of those I have yet I was not unwilling to yeeld to Gods call in the desires of the people opening such a doore of service though the continuance of the greatnesse of the work was like to be beyond my strength because to speak plainly I saw such a spirit working that I feared the door for my preaching would ere long be shut this made me to cast my selfe upon God for strength to doe as much work as possibly I could in the time when opportunity was continued and I could tell sad stories that would make others think as I did He is troubled at the Meanes I have though it be much lesse then he mentions and as at great an uncertainty as may be if men be taxed for any thing more then they like they know where to relieve themselves in withdrawing from such contributions if any weaknesse of body hinders the continuance in the greatnesse of the labour the meanes presently ceases yet I have no reason to complaine But this I say if ever I grow rich by commings in for preaching let me lye under censures as absurd as M. Edwards himselfe can devise But it may be he is angry with me because though my practice offends him not so much as others yet I countenance and plead for those whom he cryes out against as Schismatiques Ans I professe as in the presence of God that upon the most serious examination of my heart I find in it that were my judgement Presbyteriall yet I should preach and plead as much for the forbearance of Brethren differing from me not onely in their judgement but in their practice as I have ever done therefore if I should turne a Presbyterian I feare I should trouble M. Edwards and some others more then now I doe perhaps my pleading and preaching for forbearance of dissenting Brethren would be of more force then now it is He and others make a great out-cry against Schisme they think and say that men leaving a true Church cannot be freed from the charge of Schisme To that I would onely say thus much Suppose the Non-conformists or those of the Scottish Nation who lived in the City in former times who could not acknowledge the Bishops authority nor communicate in the Sacraments in the parishes where they lived without sinne to them still acknowledging them to be true Churches yet if the Parliament had made an Act whereby they should have had two or three places in the City appointed for them wherein all that could not conforme to the Discipline then established should have had liberty to have had the Sacraments and other Church-Ordinances together in those places by themselves freed from the burden of Ceremonies and subjection to Episcopall Authority would they not have blessed God for this liberty had they been Schismatiques in the enjoyment of this liberty Certainly the allowance of the State will not alter the case if it be Schisme to doe thus without allowance of the State and venturing upon suffering it is Schisme when the State does allow it when they are freed from suffering Schisme is a Church sinne What ever offence against Order of State men may be charged with who gather thus without allowance of the State yet they are not therefore Schismatiques because they doe that without the allowance of the State which if the State did allow of would not be Schisme where the Lutherans Calvinists have liberty to live in one Country together and yet not communicating one with another are all the Lutherans or all the Calvinists Schismaticks Suppose the Greek Churches had liberty to live among us would they be all Schismaticks to us or should we be so to them Many of the French and Dutch Churches who live in our parishes though they understand our language well enough yet would not communicate in the parishes
make us members of the Church These things are so palpably plaine to any that will understand that it is tedious to spend time about them He sayes further in the same page that I preaching before the Lord Major and Aldermen preached for a Toleration of all Sects and Opinions so they were not against Fundamentals in Doctrine and Fundamentals in Civil Government Ans Then I did not preach for an universall an unlimited toleration of all Religions of all things as both my selfe and others are very sinfully reported to doe What was the way of getting hands to a late Petition in London but this when some went from house to house Who are you for Are you for Presbytery or Independencie Many answering They knew not what Independencie was The Hand-gatherers replyed Independents are such as would have no Government as would have all Religions all Blasphemiss and Heresies tolerated as would live under no Laws Oh say they No we are not for them we will set our hands against them and thus hands might easily multiply Yea this is the weapon by which Ministers in their Pulpits where no body can answer them fight against Independency with But is this faire Doe not your consciences condemne you in this thing For my part as I never was so I now am not for a toleration of all things nay I should be loth to live in England if ever it should be here I doe and shall pray and endeavour against it But what I said before the Lord Major and the Aldermen had I been a Presbyterian I should have said it and were I a Presbyterian I should say it againe The Presbyteriall way had once need of such a doctrine and may have need of it againe I remember not the words that then I spoke but this I remember what I said was from the 14. to the Rom. and I am sure I have since said and published in that Treatise of Heart-Divisions three times as much about that Argument and that Scripture and yet I beleeve many hundreds of Presbyterians think what I have published there to be true doctrine onely M. Edwards has so much of the Prelacy and violence in him that he cannot digest it As for my Lectures that are printed upon Hesea that he mentions page 220. I am not willing to spend time in answering he mentions no particular words but refers you to the Lectures and pages They are to be seene I refer my selfe to all moderate Presbyterians let them judge whether there be any thing there that may not stand with Presbyterian Principles Never any have appeared against those Lectures but M. Edwards and lately M. John Vicars I reverence and teach others to reverence old age but it must know there are many infirmities attending it it is fitter for devotion then that it should interest it selfe in matters of contention If M. Vicars had told me some experiences of the work of God upon his soule or of the good providences of God towards his people and himselfe in the course of his life I should have diligently observed them and I hope might have got good by them But oh how unbecomming old age is that spirit of contention that appeares in his Bookes if he thinks those places he has cited will serve his turne surely his skill in Presbyterie is not great my pen was running in a hard expression but I will not provoke the old man yet I must be plaine with him How uncomely is it for an old Professor of Piety and Religion to be found jeering and scorning at Piety and Religion who would have thought that ever M. Vicars should have lived to that day Thus he does in the Frontispice of his Booke The names of the five pious Apologists and the names of the seven Religious Remonstrants Whereas the chiefe scope of his Book is to cast dirt upon these Apologists and Remonstrants Certainly the spirit of the man is much altered from what he heretofore seemed to be Can it become the gravity and wisdome of old age to charge and that publiquely his Brethren of unworthy double dealing of unfaithfulnesse upon no other ground then the relation of one man and that relation but upon one witnesse and yet this very witnesse gives it under his hand that what these men that he charges thus hath said is true and why must he charge Master Greenhill too Surely he did not thinke what he did for all that M. Greenhill said was he wondred to see such a thing in Master Edwards his Booke as a Relation of a meeting concluded of about Nicols where I and he M. Edwards sayes were what doublenesse or unfaithfulnesse in this for not onely M. Edwards his witnesse sayes he never told him so and such a thing never was but M. Edwards now confesses it Is there then weight enough for such a charge of M. Vicars not onely upon me but upon M. Greenhil The Lord I hope will cause M. Vicars to see cause to be humbled for this In the close of all me thinkes I see M. Edwards in M. Bellamies shop fretting and vaporing I will answer him I that I will I will reply I that I will like one Pise Jerome speaks of who though he knew not what to say yet he knew not how to hold his peace M. Edwards may be bold enough in Answering for I am perswaded he beleeves I will hardly ever be brought to trouble my self about him He is so foule who can meddle with him without dirtying his fingers I am resolved rather to lye under many prejudices and censures and commit my name and cause to God then to trouble my selfe further with him Though I will not fully conclude never to doe any thing further about him in publique yet this I engage my selfe unto that if any thing in what he has said or shall say shall stick in the hearts of any conscientious who desire satisfaction if they will but make it knowne to any that have or ever had any acquaintance with me I will if it be desired give them satisfaction in it but I confesse I am loth to promise this to strangers I have been so traduced by strangers who have come to me for satisfaction in some cases of conscience For instance in that about a late Petition of some of the Citizens which M. Edwards mentions page 110. of the first part of his Gangraena where he sayes some came to me the day after I preached to be satisfied about it who he sayes put me hard to it I confesse I spent neere foure houres with one company who came to me about it yet Master Edwards sayes I said little It may be some of them reported so How easie is it for any to come to be resolved in a case of conscience and when they are gone to say He said little Yet to those four who then came to me there was so much said that two of them went away satisfied and the other two fell off contradicting one