Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	member_n	particular_a	schism_n	2,767	5	10.0659	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A48863	The harmony between the old and present non-conformists principles in relation to the terms of conformity, with respect both to the clergie, and the people : wherein a short history of the original of the English liturgy, and some reasons why several truly conscientious Christians cannot joyn with the church in it : humbly presented to publick consideration in order to the obtaining some necessary relaxation and indulgence : to which are added some letters that pass'd between the Lord Cecil, and Arch-bishop Whitgift.	Lobb, Stephen, d. 1699.; Whitgift, John, 1530?-1604.; Burghley, William Cecil, Baron, 1520-1598.	1682 (1682)	Wing L2726; ESTC R23045	77,527	105

Medina himself doth assert that a man must rather obey an erroneous Conscience than the command of any Prelate that is contradictory thereunto Supposing these Dissenters do err yet they must not act contrary unto an erroneous Conscience the whole that can be justly desir'd is that they use all regular means to depose and shake off the error of Conscience which must be done by a sincere seeking God for more light that they may come to the knowledge of the truth and by a diligent and impartial enquiry into the true State of the controversie Moreover there must be if possible a consulting the writings of the Learned on both sides or a conversing with 'em with a readyness to weigh all things with deliberation and a resolution to embrace the truth where ever 't is found But if after all their old convictions are rather strengthned than otherwise they must beware they act not contrary to their Conscience They must not resign up their reason their Conscience nor their Religion unto the pleasure of the greatest Potentate on Earth This I take to be the Doctrine of all sound Protestants of the Church of England yea I can when there shall be an occasion prove it to be so by a Collection of the several Arguments of the Learned Drs. of the Church which they have urg'd for the confirmation of this truth in the opposition they make to the blind obedience of the Papist Whence I inferr That these Dissenters in refusing to joyn with the Church of England in the Liturgy do but discharge their duty unto God Their not joyning with the Church is not the sin of Schism Schism is asserted by Protestants to be a causless separation whence if there be a good cause why they separate 't is not causeless and can there be a better cause than the avoiding sin They separate because they should sin if they did not separate But though this be enough to clear the Dissenter who is fully convinc'd of the unlawfulness of those Termes of Communion that are imposed on the people yet 't is not enough to justifie the separation of those who do not only think it lawfull but expedient to joyn with the Church of England in their Prayers and Ceremonies c. who if they will separate from the Church of England and justifie their separation they must argue from other Topicks for certainly the peace of the Church and the authority of the Magistrate cannot but engage a people to do what is both lawfull and expedient These therefore I think deny that they separate from the Communion of the Church Although they worship God in Meetings locally distant from the Parish Church yet their Meetings are but as Chappels of Ease and the Preachers but as Curates to the Parish Churches That the Episcopal Party may effectually demonstrate a Religious Assembly locally distant from the Parish Church to be Schismatical they must prove 1. That the people of this Assembly were once actually Members of the Parish Churches 2. That these people do ordinarily separate themselves from the external Communion of their Parish Churches 3. That their separation is causless First They must prove that the people of this Assembly that is locally distant from the Parish Church were once Members of the Parish Church that they were under an obligation of holding external Communion with their Parishes 1. All External Communion must be in Parish Assemblys or single Congregational Churches For a Diocesan Provincial or National Assembly of all the Members of those Societies for External Communion is on the account of the multitude of the people impossible 't is impossible they should meet in one and the same Assembly and hold Communion with each other in Prayers in the Word and in the Sacrament Their External Communion in Prayers c. must be in lesser Assemblies or not at all 2. Those who are under any Obligations of holding external Communion with this or the other Parish must be Members of this or the other Parish Church Such as are not Members of this or the other Parish Church cannot be said to separate from it tho' they meet in places locally distant because they not being Members of the Parish Church are not under any Obligation of holding external Communion with that Parish A Man saies Dr. Stilling fleet is not said to separate from every Church where he forbears or ceases to have Communion but only from that Church with which he is obliged to hold Communion and yet withdraws from it This sufficiently evinces That unless the Conformists can prove that the Dissenters were oblig'd to hold Communion as Members of the Parish Churches they cannot prove a Separation To separate from a Church doth suppose that person to have been once of that Church But the Quaerie is how the Conformists will prove all the Dissenters to be Members of some particular Parish Church Will they say that they were all made Members of some particular Parish Church by their Baptisme That cannot be because by Baptism we are only made Members of the Catholick Church Doth our being born English Men and our Inhabiting in such a Parish make us Members of the Parish Church No for there are no Grounds in Scripture for this Our Lord Jesus Christ nor his Apostles did not leave any Intimations concerning such a Rule neither can any precept but what is fetch from God's word fasten any such Obligation on the Conscience that whoever lives within such a precinct must be a Member of such a Church How then must it be The Answer of our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles and the Primitive Christians for the first 300 years and of most Protestants is full for this which is That it must be by the peoples consent For as the people are invested with a Right to chose their own Pastor and the Church with which they would hold Communion Even so they cannot be Members nor under any Obligation of holding Ordinary Communion with this or the other particular Church without their own consent Consent is as absolutely necessary to the constituting a particular Parish Church as a National which consent may be discovered not only Expresly but also implicitly which is when a people do ordinarily joyn with some particular Church in all Ordinances as many Parishioners who by their Ordinary holding Communion with the Parish Church in all Ordinances do practically and interpretatively though not expresly discover their consent to be of that Church whereby I think they are under an Obligation to constant Communion with that Parish Church so long as they find it lawful Tho' these may Occasionally hold Communion elsewhere yet their ordinary and constant Communion must be with their Parish Church For which reason if they do ordinarily forbear or cease to have Communion with their Parish-Church it may be justly said that they do separate from it But there are many an Inhabitant in most Parishes who as they were not made Members of the Parish

Church by Baptism nor can be by meer Cohabitation even so they never were by their own Consent either expresly or interpretatively They never held Communion with the Church of England in all Ordinances were never confirm'd by the Bishops nor ever did participate of the Lord's Supper and therefore I think it cannot be truly said That they Separate How can they cease that Communion which they never had For which reason to prove these Schismatical Separatists who never separated from the Church seems an Impossibility Surely their exercise of that Right and Power with which they are invested as Christians in chosing their own Pastor cannot be an Act Schismatical By this 't is manifest That those who never expresly nor implicitly consenting to hold communion with any parish-Parish-Church in all Ordinances were never actually obliged to hold Communion with such particular Parishes and consequently their forbearing such Communion or their Assembling in places distant from the Parish Church cannot be a Separation and if not a Separation it cannot be a Schism Thus the Reader may easily perceive how necessary 't is that the Conformists prove that those Dissenters who now meet in Assemblies locally distant from the Parish Churches were once Members and under an Obligation of holding external Communion with the Parish Churches if they will prove 'em Separatists Furthermore they must prove 2. That this people do ordinarily Separate themselves from the external Communion of their Parish Church For seeing the Sin of Schism consists in causeless Separation there must be a Separation or there can be no causeless Separation that is there can be no Schism but how the Conformist can prove a Separation any otherwise than by insisting on the people's not holding Communion in the same manner or same place with the Church is difficult to suppose And if they take either of their ways without the Addition of some other Consideration they must either make many of their own Meetings Separate which are in places locally distant from the Parish Church where their Modes of Administration are different or clear many Dissenters from the Reproach of Separation what do they think of such Meetings in which the Common Prayer is read are they Separate and Schismatical But after they have prov'd both these they cannot prove all Dissenters Schismatical unless they can also evince 3. That the Separation is Causeless and Sinful But how they can prove that those who if they separate do so on no other Account than that they may forsake Sin is a point worthy of Consideration If there be any sinful Imposition made the term of Communion 't is sufficient to justifie the Separation of those who withdraw themselves from the external Communion of that Church If a Church that is sound in the Doctrine of Religion though it detests an Idolatrous Worship yet if it make the least Sin the Term of Communion whereby the people cannnot have Communion with that Church but by a deliberate committing that Sin Separation from the Communion of this Church is justifiable For whatever some may suggest we must not commit the least Sin that good may come thereof To insist then so much on the Peace and Vnity of the Church as if it were a Good for the Obtaining which we might venture on a little Sin is a Notion of a very dangerous Tendency giving too great Countenance to a Doctrine of the Papists whereby they justifie all their Villanies A Little evil say they may be done for the Obtaining a great Good for instance The Salvation of the many Souls in Three Kingdoms is a great a very great Good the Killing One Two or Three Hereticks in order thereunto at most is but a little evil which may be done for so great a good Moreover this justifies all their Officious Lying and Equivocating they tell a Lye that some great good may come thereof But this is so contrary to the pure Nature of a Holy God and his Holy Good and Just Command that whoever will indulge himself in a practical embraceing such a Notion doth but prepare the greater Damnation for his own Soul God is a great God and the least Sin being an Offence to his Dread Majesty cannot knowingly with deliberation and allowance be committed but the person that does it exposeth himself to Divine Indignation who ever breaketh the least of these my Commands says Christ Matth. 5. 19. is in danger of loosing Heaven for though a man keep the whole Law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all James 2. 10. We must not speak nor act wickedly for God he is not glorified by Mans lye and therefore Wo unto them that will do evil that good may come thereof Rom. 3. 8. If the least sin be made the Term of Communion no Consideration of Peace and Vnity or of Obedience to the Magistrate can excuse those from guilt that will venture on that sin Whence 't is evident That all those who by the Reasons insisted on in this Treatise are fully convinc'd That somewhat sinful is imposed as a Term of Communion with the Church of England they do but discharge their Duty and keep a good Conscience in separating and yet by separation do not accuse the Church as if she had been no true Church or as if Salvation could not by others be had in it A Church that is sound in the Faith that 't is a true Church in a Theological Sense being lyable to Error may even while Sound in the great things of Religion impose some Error as a Term of Communion from which those who are convinc'd of the Sin must separate A sound Church in the great things may err in lesser matters and may Impose Assent and Consent unto that Error as a Term of Communion with the which these Dissenters durst not comply but seeing they cannot have Communion on easier Terms must separate There is a great Difference between the Errors or Corruptions of a Church which are made Terms of Communion and those which are not 'T is not to be question'd but that a man may joyn with a Church that is less pure than another even with a Church that hath several Spots in it or he must joyn with none and may be under an Obligation of continuing with that Church although he may go elsewhere and be better edifyed otherwise there being variety of Gifts those who are more eminent than the rest among the Ministery must have most of the people round when other honest though not so able Preachers have few or none However if they make the least Spot or Impurity a Term of Communion he dares not comply As long as he may may continue Communion without being made a partaker of the impurities as in many instances he may he must not separate but when they impose their corruptions as Termes of Communion so that he cannot have Communion but by complying with the corruption he must not sin for the sake of Communion nor on any

mean as your Lordship doth with the Scripture generally The drawing or encouraging others to do what they are not in Conscience convinc'd they may do My Lord There is a real Disposition yea longing Desires among the Non-Conformists towards a Protestant Vnion and it rejoyceth their very Souls to find some such as your Lordship among the dignified Ciergie and do bless God for you There are some such also in England who tho' they Conform do it not blindfold nor upon Corrupt Inducements We believe there are many of you who can in the fear of God profess you have again and again considered the Ecclesiastical Laws and according to your Duty as you believe you have been and are obedient not only for Wrath but also for Conscience sake and that you are Sound Protestants and as great an Eye-Sore to the Papist as any among the Dissenters However we are as Confident That there are others who are pretendedly at least great zealots for Conformity and yet Aimrather at an Union between the Church of England and the Church of Rome who consequently hate a Protestant Dissenter much more than they do a Papist not being asham'd to profess They would rather be Papists than Presbyterians There are many such who delight not only to misrepresent the Dissenter as your Lordship will perceive by the Reverend Mr. Baxter's reply to your Postscript but moreover to Unchurch all the Foreign Reformed Churches who have not an Episcopal Ordination Thus Mr. Conold in his Notion of Schism Dedicated to Anthony Lord Bishop of Norwich p. 14. asserts That he who is out of this Line of Apostolick Succession and exercises any Ministerial Office without the Commission of Episcopal Ordination is but a Lay-Imposter and a Schismatick from the Catholick Church and p. 43. speaking of Foreign Protestant Churches adds But if any of them have a Ministry which have no other Orders than their own Vsurpation or popular Election I know not how to Acquit them from being Shismaticks from the Catholick Church But yet though he is so severe in Censuring the Foreign Protestant Churches as Schismaticks from the Catholick Church he is as Merciful to Foreign Papists for in his Epistle to the Reader As for those of your Religion vid. the Popish who live under the Laws of the Romish Dominions I have a great Charity for them says he for they can plead Submission to their own Superiors and I am apt to believe that plea may be very considerable when they come to appear before the Prince of Peace and the God of Order There having been some such in the Church of England ever since the first Reformation they have impeded all Essayes for a Protestant Vnion and have done their utmost rather to Accommodate the Differences between Vs and Rome whereby Instead of Relaxations and Abatements towards Dissenters The Church of England has made the Terms of Communion the more difficult and uneasie unto us to the hightning and increasing the Divisions and at this very day will be at the same work wherein unless timely prevented they may succeed We beseech your Lordship therefore to animate your Brethren who are hearty to the Protestant Interest to Consider with just regards the tender Consciences of Dissenting Protestants and to appear in making a brisk Opposition to those who under pretence of making the Church of England the more Grand and August designs her Ruine by bringing her into her Antient Slavery to the Church of Rome 'T is to be wished a Bill Comprehensive of all Sound Protestants might pass in Order to the uniting us But if that cannot be a Bill lesser Comprehensivē with an Indulgence will very much contribute to the Churches peace and the strengthning the Protestant Interest To which end That the Advice your Lordship gives p. 62. to the end may be regarded by all is the Prayer of him who highly values your Lordships great Learning your Christian Temper and Moderation and who is Your Humble Servant April 1. 1682. The Errata PAge 7. l. 11. dele who p. 9. l. 2. After then add my work is l. 18. dele For. l. 35. for they r. the Dissenters p. 19. l. 22. for if r. of p. 20. l. 23. After then add the Bishops of p. 21. l. 32. for Families r. Faculties p. 23. l. 7. after Objection add has offer'd p. 26. l. ult r. of p. 28. l. 10. dele of p. 32. l. 18. r. it has p. 33. l. 10. d. and. l. 28. r. Proctors p. 34. l. 11. r. Scultingius p. 35. l. 15. r. Intelligencers p. 40. l. 1. r. pages p. 41. l. ult add That is several Popish Vestments p. 42. l. 9. after affairs add than in Civil p. 44. l. 6. after drunkenness add does p. 48. l. 5. r. Superstitious p. 55. l. 13. r. Prince p. 59. l. 19. r. Parity p. 60. l. 10. r. to l. ult r. 2. p 71. l. 27. r. Rites l. 38. after that add are l. ult r. why p. 72. l. ult r. Wild. To the READER THE design of the ensuing Treatise is only to shew how necessary 't is that the Church of England make the Terms of Communion with her somewhat more easie For 't is certain that whatever some suggest concerning the fancy humour and obstinacy of Dissenters He who is the searcher of hearts doth know that they are Conscientious in their Non-conformity Could they with a good Conscience conform they would but seeing they cannot as appears by what is insisted on in this Treatise what must they do They must not sin and offend God to please men 'T is not altogether improbable but that a Conformist in his perusal of the arguments in the following discourse may be supply'd with an answer satisfactory to himself and many others notwithstanding which the Dissenters may still feel more conviction in those arguments for their Non-conformity than in any reply made to 'em and therefore cannot Conscientiously conform Hitherto the Dissenters have been reproach'd as a people who cause divisions in the Church about Trifles who though they won't now Conform if there were a Bill of Comprehension on no easier Termes than a complying with the use of the Liturgy they would generally do it I have therefore upon a seririous and deliberate weighing all things thought it meet at this season when a late book of a singular brother calls aloud for it to give an impartial account of the Dissenters sentiments which are more general concerning Conformity having done it impartially rather indeed like an Historian than a Logician The great thing I abide by and judge my self oblig'd to defend is 1. That there are arguments powerfull enough in the judgments of some to fasten plain convictious on 'em concerning the unlawfulness or inexpediency of the use of the present Ordinary Lord's dayes Service Though I may not be convinc'd by them yet others may 2. That so long as any Dissenters are thus fully convinc'd of the unlawfulness or inexpediency of the Liturgy they must not

Postscript Your Grace must pardon my hasty scribling for I have done this raptim and without correction Numb 5. The Treasurer's reply to an answer of the Arch-bishop's unto the former Letter July 17. 1584. I Have received your Graces loving Letter answering Speeches as I think delivered by your Chaplain Dr. Cossins and I perceive you are sharply mov'd to blame me and clear your self I know I have many faults but I hope I have not given such cause of offence as your Letter expresseth I deny nothing that your Grace thinketh meet to proceed in with these whom you call factious and therefore there is no controversie betwixt you and me expressed in your Letter The controversie is pass'd in your Grace's Letter in silence and so I do rest satisfied your Grace promised me to deal I say only with such as violate order and to charge them therewith which I allow well thereof But your Grace not charging men with such faults seeketh by examination to urge them to accuse themselves and then I think you 'l punish them I think your Graces proceedings is I will not say rigorous nor captious but I think it is scarce charitable I have no leisure to write more and therefore I will end for writing will but encrease offence and I mean not to offend your Grace I am content that your Grace and my Lord of London where I hear Brown is use him as your Wisdomes shall think meet If I had known his faults I might be blam'd for writeing for him but when by examination only it is to sift him with 24 Articles I have cause to pity the poor man Your Graces as Friendly as any William Burleigh Numb 6. The Arch-Bishop's Answer to the Lord Treasurer MY singular good Lord God knoweth how desirous I have been from time to time to satisfie your Lordship in all things and to have my doings approved to you for which cause since my coming to this place I have done nothing of importance without your advice I have risen early and sat up late to write unto you such objections and answers as on either side were used I have not done the like to any man and shall I now say that I have lost my labour or shall my just dealing with two of the most disorder'd Ministers in a whole Diocess the obstinacy and contempt of whom especially of one of them your self would not bear in any subjected to your Authority cause you so to think and speak of my doings yea and of my self no man living should have made me beleive it Solomon saith an old friend is better than a new and I trust your Lordship will not so lightly cast off your old friend for any of those new fangled factious Sectaries whose fruits are to make divisions wheresoever they come and to separate old and assured friends Your Lordship seemeth to charge me with breach of promise touching my manner of proceeding whereof I am no way guilty but I have alter'd my first course of depriving them for not subscribing only justifiable by law and common practice both in the time of King Edward and from the beginning of her Majesties Reign Your Lordship also objecteth that I took this course for the better maintenance of my book c. mine enemies said so indeed but I trust my friends have a better opinion in me Why should I seek for any confirmation of my book after years or what should I get thereby more than already And yet if subscription may confirm it it is confirm'd long ago by the subscription of all the Clergy almost in England before my time even of Branie also who seemeth now to be so wilful Mine enemies and tongues of this slanderous and uncharitable Sect report that I am revolted become a Papist and I know not what But it proceedeth from their lewdness not from any desert of mine and I disdain to answer to such notorious untruths which the best of them dare not avouch to my face Your Lordship seemeth further to burden me with wilfulness I am sure that you are not so perswaded of me I will appeal to your own Conscience there is difference between wilfulness and constancy I have taken upon me the defence of the Religion and Rights of this Church of England to appease the Sects of Schismes therein to reduce all the Ministers thereof to Vniformity and due obedience herein I intend to be constant and not to waver with every wind the which also my place my person my duty the law her Majesty and the goodness of the cause doth require of me and wherein your Lordship and others all things considered ought in duty to assist and countenance me It is strange that a man in my place dealing with so good warranties as I do should be so encounter'd and for not yielding should be accounted wilful but I must be contented vincit qui patitur and if my friends herein forsake me I trust God will not neithe law her Majesty who hath laid the charge on me and are able to protect me But of all other things it most greiveth me that your Lordship should say that the two Ministers fare the worse because your Lordship sent them Hath your Lordship ever had any cause so to think of me it is needless for me to protest my heart and affections towards you above all other men the world knoweth it and I am assured that your Lordship nothing doubeth thereof I have rather cause to complain to your Lordship of your self that upon so small occasion and in the behalf of two such you will so hardly conceive of me yea and as it were countenance persons so meanly qualified in so evil a cause against me your Lordship 's so long tryed friend and their ordinary that hath not so been in times past now it should least of all be I may not suffer the notorious contempt of any of them especially unless I will become Aesop's block well because I would be loath to omit any thing whereby your Lordship might be satisfied I have sent unto you certain reasons to justifie the manner of my proceeding which I marvel should be so much misliked in this cause having been so long practis'd in the like yea in the same and never before this time found fault with truly my Lord I must proceed this way or not at all the reasons I have set down in this paper and I heartily pray your Lordship not to be carryed away either from the cause or from my self upon unjust surmises or clamours least you be some occasion of that confusion which hereafter you would be sorry for For mine own part I desire no farther defence in these occasions of your Lordship nor any other than justice and law will yield unto me In my private affairs I know I stand in need of friends especially of your Lordship of whom I have made alwayes an assured account but in these publick actions I see no cause why I should seek for friends seeing they to whom the care of the common weal is committed ought out of duty therein to joyn with me to conclude I am your Lordships assured neither will I ever be perswaded but that you bear an hearty good will towards me So far Whitgift If Dr. Burnet would undertake the carrying on the History of Ecclesiastical Affairs all the time Q. Eliz. liv'd and in order thereunto might he be so happy as to obtain a sight of all those great things were then on the stage the world would see how little they are owing unto Heylin for his History and also understand how unjustly the Old Protestants call'd Puritanès have been represented as factious c. FINIS