A TREATISE OF THE LAWFVLNES OF HEARING OF THE Ministers in the church of England penned by that learned and Reverent deuine M r. Iohn Robinsz late Pastor to the English church of God in Leyden Printed according to the Copie that was found in his studie after his decase and now published for the common good TOGETHER WITH A LETTER written by the same Authore and approued by his church vvhich followeth after this Treatise IOHN 7. 24. Iudge not according to pearance but Iudge righteous Iudgment Printed Anno 1634. THE PRINTERS TO the Christian Reader CHristian Reader How euer the verie naming of the Author of this following Treatise vvere sufficient reason for vs to publish this same vnto the vvorld in regard of those large abilities aboue many others vvhich the Lord had bestowed vpon him and in regard he being now at rest with the Lord and so hauing finished long since his course in this his pilgrimage vve cannot expect to haue any more vse of his helpe this waye and although it were great pittie that such a vvorke as this should be concealed for so long time considering the worke vvas perfected and vvritted by his owne hand and so found after his death which is nine yeares since in his studie yet haue we thought it good all this while to conceale it in respect of that desire vve had to the peace of that church whereof the Author of this Treatise vvas for so many yeares a Pastor In regard vve did perceiue that some though not manie vvere contrariâ— minded to the Authors judgement expressed in this Trtatise And this vve judge to be a sufficient reason of our so long delaying of publishing this Treatise to the world Yet to our griefe vve haue now just cause to put this same on foote For as vvhen a citie is in danger of enemies to be surprized it is then high time to take vp all those vvarrlike Munitions vvhich happily before that time vvere cast aside and not regarded that so they may the better maintaine their citie and the priuiledges of it against their enemies so vve judge it as necessarie if not more vvhen vve see the enemies of Gods church to incroach vpon the priuiledges of the same especiallie vvhen they ayme at the vtter ruinating of it that then it is high time for vs to defende the cause of Christ and it vvas the vvisdome of Iehojada the High Priest perceiuing the malice of Athalia seeking to destroy the vvhole seed of Iehosaphat to hide Ioash the right heyre of the Kingdome and vvhen he sawe a fit opportunitie then to reueale him and make him knowne so vve vvho haue obserued Athalias spirit in part to be in some vvho haue laboured to assume the power to themselues vvhich is proper to the church and so Diotrephes like vvould cast out vvhom they please and retayne vvhom they thought good and rather then they vvill be hindred in this their attempt they vvill labour to rent that church in pieces in vvhich they haue liued for manie yeares together and that vve may not seeme to accuse them of any thing vvithout just reason vve desire the Christian Reader and themselues to consider this that followes First their schisme or as they call it their leauing of the church doth arise vpon this occasion to wit that 2. which vvere members of the same church with them hauing vpon some occasion heard some of the Ministers in England preach and it coming to the knowledge of some of these vvho haue now made this rent the church they vvould presently haue these persons dealt vvithall as for sinne and if they did not repent after dealing they vvould haue the church to proceed to excomunicate them ipso facto vvhich the church not willing to consent vnto these men could not be satisfied but they vvould haue their owne vvilles done or els they vvould rent from the church vvhich proceeding of theirs if it vvere approued of and followed no church could long continue together in peace for vvhat these foure or fiue men haue done that may any other man doe so that if any man do conceiue any of his brethren to vvalke in any such sinne vvhich he judges doth deserue excomunication if the church will not thereto consent he may rent himselfe from the same Although the Author of this Treatise haue taught them otherwise to vvit that if the church see not that to be sinne vvhich I see to be a sinne I hauing informed the church thereof according to my place I haue disscharged my dutie and the sinnes lyes vpon the church if it be a sinne and not vpon me but it seemes these men do looke for that in the church on earth vvhich is onely to be found in heauen for themselues haue affirmed and that before diuers witnesses that there is no sinne small or great that is to borne vvithall and that the verie speaking of a vvord through fraylty about worldly businesses vpon the Sabbaoth day should haue as seuere a sentence as he that shall openly prophanely transgresse against the 4. Commandement the verie naming of with their opinion is sufficient to discouer their weaknes that we may yet further discouer these mens folly to the world more fully we will shew you how contrary they are to themselues in this their iudgment for as they say and do affirme that there is no sinne vvhich is to be borne withall in the church yet themselues or at least the chief of them do practise the contrarie as for example one in stead of manie may serue the turne The chiefe of Author of this trouble doth hold and so hath for manie yeares together to vvit that it is vnlawfull for the members of one church to haue communion with another church and yet not vvithstanding this his judgement he can beare vvith one vvho hath contrary to this his judgement practised and so professeth still to do vpon occasion and yet not vvithstanding his so practizing and so professing he is receiued among them and is their chiefe if not their onely Teacher which they haue So that vve may here easily perceiue that though this man doth vse Iehu's peace against the sinnes of others with whom he desires to be alienated yet he can beare vvith as great sinnes in others in his judgement vvith vvhom he desires to vvalke we could shew manie more reasons to proue his partialitie but then vve should exceed the bonds of an Epistle onely vve desire to giue the Reader to take notice of those two things First that this practize of hearing the Ministers of the church of England is not against any Article of faith vvhich is by this church professed vvhereof the Author of this Treatise vvas a Pastor it being no Act of Church Communion for if hearing simplie vvere an Act of Communion then euerie hâ—â—â—tique or Atheist or whatsoeuer he were that should come into the church of God should haue Communion vvith them vvhich if it vvere true as this
vvith the said church For the better clearing of things let vs in a fevv vvords consider distinctly of religious actions according to the seuerall ranks in vvhich they may rightly orderly be sett Some such actions are religious onely as they are performed by religious persons And of this sort is hearing and so reading of Gods vvord The scriptures teach and all confesse that hearing of the vvord of God goes before faith For faith comes by hearing Rom. 10. 17 as by an outvvard meanes Hearing then being before faith 1. Tim. 1. 5 and faith before all other acts of religion invvard Rom. 10. 10 or outvvard Gal. 2. 20 it must needs follovve that hearing is not simply or of it selfe a vvork of religion and so not of religious communion Hearing is properly and of it selfe a naturall action though it be the hearing of the very vvord of God And I call it a naturall action in it selfe in a double respect First for that the light of nature teacheth euery man to heare and listen to another that can and vvill teach and inform him in any thing for his good diuine or humane Secondly for that a meer naturall man levv Turk Infidell or Idolator lavvfully may yea necessarily ought to hear Gods vvord that so of naturall he may become spirituall In the seacond rank I place preaching Psal. 50. 16. 17. prayer which are properly acts religious Pro. 15. 8. and spirituall as being to be performed the one by a gift Ioh. 9 31. the other by a grace of Gods spirit Of a third sort is the participation in the Sacraments vvhich ordinarily at least requires a member shippe in some perticuler and ministeriall church in the participant they being publique church ordinances In a fourth order I set the power of suffrage and voyce giâ—eing in electing of officers and censuring of offenders for vvhich there is requisite an interest of the person so voteing in that perticuler church as a member thereof Of the last sort is the ministration of Sacraments which requires vvith the rest fore mentioned a publique state of ministery in the person administring them Novv for preaching by some hearing by others vvhich tvvo alvvaies go together they may be and oft are performed vvithout any religious oâ— spâ—â—â—tuall communion at all passing betvveen the persons preaching or hearing When Paul preached to the superstitious Athenians shal vve conceaue he had spirituall communion vvith that heathenish assemblie Act. 17. 22. Hovv much lesse had they spirituall and religious communion vvith him vvho performed not so much as a religious vvorke in their hearing As God gaue any of them to beleeue they came into invisible or invvardly spirituall personall communion vvith him as they came to make personall manifestation and declaration of their faith they came into outvvard personall communion vvith him Lastly as they came to joyn in or vnto some perticuler church in to church communion vvith him els not So when there comes into the church assembly vnbeleuers 1. Cor 14. 23. heathens Turks Ievves Atheists excommunicates men of all religious men of none at all and there heare vvhat spirituall communion haue they vvith the church or state of the teacher or one vvith another either in regard of the nature of the act done or by Gods ordination and institution Hearing simply is not appointed of God to be a mark and note either of vnion in the same faith or order amongst all that heare or of differencing of christians from no christiaÌ„s or of members from no members of the church as the sacraments are notes of both in the participants The hearing of the vvord of God is not so inclosed by any hedge or ditch deuine or humane made about it but lies in common for all for the good if all The perticuler objections follow 1. OBIECTION No man may submit his conscience to be wrought vpon by an vnlawfull and Antichristian ministery neither hath God promised or doth afford any blessing vpon it neither can any haue the sanctified vse thereof ANSWERE It cannot be said properly that the office of ministerie vvorkes vpon the conscience of the hearer The office onely giues povver and charge to the teacher to teach in such or such a church state And as it resides in the person of the officer alone so the communion lavvfull or vnlavvfull vvhich any hath vvith it is in regard of the lavvfull or vnlavvfull ecclesiasticall relation and vnion foregoing betvveen the persons and not in any vvorking of the office vpon the conscience of any Secondlie though God blesse not the vnlavvfull office of ministerie vvhich is not of him selfe yet he may and doth blesse the truthes taught by the officer Genes 4â— 5. 6. vvhich are of himselfe and from heauen To deny this of many in the church of England is Balaam-like to curse vvhere God vvould haue vs blesse 2. OBIECTION To heare such a minister is to honour approue and vphold his office of ministery ANSWERE 1. If this be simply true then vvhen the heathenish Athenians heard Paul preach or vvhen an vnbeleuer comes into the church assembly and hears the preacher he approues honours and vpholds the office of ministerie vvhich vvhat it meanes he is altogether ignorant If any reply But vve know the ministery of the church to be as it is I ansvvere that the knowing of it makes not our act the more or lesse an act of approbation If I do an act wherin I indeed approue of a thing if I know the thing I really approue of it vpon knowledge if I know it not I really approue if it but ignorantly 2. If I approue of the office simply because I heare the officer preach then I much more approue of all the doctrines vvhich hee deliuers because I heare him deliuer them If the latter seem vnreasonnable so is the former much more except I be in church communion vvith the officer and then indeed I really approue of his office as I also doe of his doctrine if it be according to the confessioÌ„ of faith made by mee for then I am in former vnion vvith him in the one or other and so haue communion in the acts therof If this vvere a good ground that euery one approues of the euil done in matter or manner where he is present none could liue with good conscience in any society of men vpon earth Persons so minded are best alone for vvith others they vvill keep no peace no nor vvith themselues neither if they be true to their ovvne ground But they plainly balke themselues in their courses either in vveaknes of judgement or partialitie of affection or through vvant of due consideration of their vvaies 3. OBIECTION By this then it seemes a man may be present at any act of Idolatrie and do as others do that practice idolatrie yet not approue of it And so the three Nobles in Daniell needed not to haue put themselues vpon such pikes
and prosecute vvere rashe and rude at the least But now if the person can in respect of other good things by the vvord of God vtmost extent of charity be deemed to haue any the least interest in the grace of the gospell to censure such a one as an idolator theefe murderer and the like is against both charitie and godlines The Apostle 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vs to iudge and speak otherwise vvhere he calls such of the Christian Corinthians as by occasion of friends corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts and tables of deuils of vvhich they had also before been by him most seriouslie admonished 1. Cor. 8. 10. Righteousnes light Christ beleeuers and the Temple of God opposed to vnbeleeuers vnrighteousnes c. As it is one thing to haue sinne which if we say we haue not we deceaue our selues the trueth is not in vs and another thing to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance or infirmitie some acts lesse discernable of Idolatrie are not Idolators but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition Lastlie If all in the church of England and of Mr. Iakobs church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnder the curse and condemnation of the law vvhich censure the most rigid this vvay haue disclaimed as rash and vnjust Secondlie Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation be a true church or no We haue so judged and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam and the body of the church with them as we conceaue and so do vve judge still hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled Thirdly Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are receaued and retained in our churches by that couenant which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church or whether they haue renounced it as false and made an other {reversed} Answere Their receauing heare was only by that couenant made with God and the church there continued and none otherwise the persons hauing testimonie and dismission from the church there and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut by vs commended and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam Fourthly To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher other brethren renouncing communion with you it is both vnseasonable now to answere and difficult for vs who are ignorant of such circumstances and maners of cariage by them as by which offences are much agreeuated or extennated Fifthly Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing {reversed}â—Š Answere Neither the pretence of hauing nor the hauing of the truth indeed makes the church in the sence in hand no more then the hauing some other perticuler commendable vertue by some makes them the church excluding them that want its As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible and ministeriall church is the whole body euery member thereof Not some parts Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members haue more comelines and some lesse The church is a state spirituall and politicall not personall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member therof And if the greater number be members still though inerrour the smaller cannot be the body Besides if some particuler sinne or errour make the greatest part not to be members then much more two or three perticulers Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne to vvit if they vvere not members Lastly this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground that the church cannot erre Sixtly Whether women haue voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs Answere The Apostle teacheth plainlie the contrarie 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of propheâ—ing and teaching yet layes he downe a more generall rule forbidding all such speaking as in vvhich authoritie is vsed that is vsurped ouer the man which is done speciallie in iudgements And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her instruction hov much lesse may she giue a voyce or vtter a reproofe for censure And this answere vve return at the length brethren to your letter and demands therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare we rest Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz and church with him Leyden 5. April 1624. FINIS
following Treatise proues the contrarie then it vvere good for euery church that will auoid communion with profane men to meete in priuate and then to shut their dore when their own compagnie is meet together else I cannot see how they can auoid hauing communion with wicked men to wit if beare hearing be an acte of communion Secondly as this hearing is not against any Article of their faith so likewise it was not in the iudgement of the church esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall The letter you shall find after the Treatise this may appeare by a copy of a letter which we haue heer following published where the church in the counsell which they giue to the church of London do sufficiently make it appeare that their iudgement did manifestlie differ from those which now haue made this breach and which is well to be marked by the reader how that the church when this letter was write enioyed the Pastor and their company was fiue tymes greater then it was when this breach was made because these men in his their error are vvilling to retraine it and not being able to make any sufficient reply to the answere made in this Treatise to their obiections though the manuscript therof hath bene in their hands for many yeares yet because they will find somthing to say more then others haue done heretofore though of lesse force therefore they haue ioyned some new obiections which both the seducer and the seduced do thinke are vnanswerable therfore it will not be amisse for vs to propound them and to giue some answere to them that so if their stomachs serue they may reply to all at once First they obiect and say that we hold the church of England to be a false church and the Ministers thereof to be Antichristian and yet we go thither to worship the true God Before we answere directly to this objection we shall intreate the Reader and themselues to consider of this that followes First A church may be said to be false in diuers respects and according to those respects vve are to haue diuers Considerations thereof as first a church may be said to be false in respect of outward order to vvit vvhen a church is gathered together not according to the rule of Christ neither in their outward gouernement do they conforme therevnto now this church cannot be said to be the church of Christ being thus erected and gouerned contrary to the rule of Christ but is false and Antichristian and yet notwithstanding the faith professed by this church and the doctrines taught in this church may be sound and according to God Secondly a church may be false not onely in respect of outward order but likewise in respect of faith and doctrine Now to this latter vve counsell no man to go because from thence no good can be expected and that is the esteeme vve haue of the church of Rome But now as in a true church in respect of outward order there may be manie false doctrines taught so in a church that is false in respect of outward order there may be manie sound and seasonable truths taught and this esteeme vve haue of the preaching in England Namelie that the doctrine there taught according to the Articles of their faith is sound and the effects of it hath appeared in the vvorking of faith in the hearts of manie thousands For the outward order or meeting there as a church that concernes themselues and those that are in vnion vvith that church estate but not all that heare them Now that worshipping of God which consists in hearing his word is warrantable for vs to doe in England we proue it by this argument That preaching which ordinarily begets men to the faith of Christ may lawfully be heard But the preaching of many Ministers in the Church of England hath and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ. Therefore the preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard The first part of this sillogisme is proued out of Rom 10. where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary vvay God vses to beget men to the faith of Christ telles vs it comes by hearing of the vvord of God preached if faith comes by hearing the vvord of God preached to vvit if that be the outward meanes then there is no question but that a man may heare such preaching and any man may blush for shame that shall deny this so that the major part of the argument is cleare And for the Minor parte they cannot deny it no more then a man at noon day can deny the sunne to shine for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the preaching and hearing in England it is a great question vvether they euer had faith or no yet because some are so grosse as to deny this we will therefore proue the contrarie by this Argument That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnall and so not capable of a church-estate to become saints so fit for a church-estate That preaching must needs beget men to the faith But the preaching and hearing in England made them that were vnfit carnall to become saints and so fit members to the true church which were not so before Therfore the preaching in England and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith That the preaching and hearing in England hath done this Witnesse the church of Leyden and of Amstelredam Let them tell vs where they receiued their faith if they say they had it not till they ioyned in these bodies how could they then be true to their owne grounds that none but visible Christians are fit matter for the church vvhereas none can be so esteemed except in the iudgement of charitie we iudge them to haue true faith But some of these that haue made this diuision haue not denyed but faith is wrought by the preaching and hearing in England and yet which is wonderfull contradiction they say it is not the vvord of God as it is there preached so that it seemes there is something besides the vvord of God which is an ordinary meanes to beget men to the faith and there is another vvord besides Gods vvord that vvill do it the like absurditie hath sildome bene heard from any that professe them selues to be Christians and that they may not seeme to say this vvithout some reason marke the reason that they bring to proue it say they we do deny that to be the vvord of God as it is there preached by a false Ministry though the vvord it selfe be of God yet as it is by them preached it is none of Gods vvord so Gods vvord here stands at fast and loose it is Gods vvord and it is not Gods vvord as if they should say it is Gods word if M r. Canne shall preach it but if another that is a Minister in England preach the same it is none of Gods vvord so
nothing but apparant sin in the vvay can excuse the vvithdravving from it vvhen occasioÌ„ of enjoying it is offred Oh that there vvere not to be found vvho being verie scrupulous of comming neer to any thing amisse in outvvard ordinances or to any person failing in them yet make no scruple of complying and conforming vvith the vvorld so farre in the eagre pursuit of wordlie profits immoderate vse of vvorldlie delights and fulfilling the lusts of the vvorld and flesh dvvelling in them as that there appears scarse an hayr-breath or difference betvveene them and meer vvorldlings vvhich know not God Which latter euils are both vvorse in themselues as being expreslie condemned by the lavv of God and light of nature and more odious in the persons as being more personall free and voluntarie then those in the other to vvhich they are carried by the violent courrent of the times A third sort of opposites I make account to meet vvith more vntractable then the former and more vehementlie bent against the thing propounded by me out of prejudice and passion then the other by scruple of conscience or shevv of reason To them I can hardlie say any thing it not being their manner to read or vvillinglie to hear that vvhich crosseth their prejudices yet something I must saic touching them out of the vvofull experience of manie yeares taken of them though not much I thanke the Lord amongst them vnto vvhom I haue ministred Some of these I haue found carried vvith so excessiue admiration of some former guides in their course as they think it halfe heresie to call into question any of their determinations or practises We must not thinke that onely the Pharisees of old and papists of later times are superstitiously addicted to the traditions of the elders and authoritie of the church In all Sects there are diuers speciallie of the vveaker sort vvho being the lesse reall in their conceptions are the more personall that rather chuse to followe the trodde of blinde tradition if beaten by some such foregoers as they admire then the right vvaie of Gods Word by others to be shewed them aftervvards Some again are as much addicted to themselues as the former to others conceauing in effect though they vvill not professe it the same of their owne heads vvhich the papists do of their head the Pope viz that they cannot erre or be deceaued and this speciallie in such matters as for vvhich they haue suffred trouble and affliction formerlie and so haueing bought them deare they valew them highly But it is to marchantlike to striue to ouer fell a thing vvhich vve haue formerlie ouer bought vve must buy the trueth and not fell it at any rate but must account nothing either true or good according to the valuation vvhich vve haue set vpon it but God There is also a third sort highly aduanceing a kinde of priuatiue goodnes and religion and vvho bend their force rather to the vveaking of other men in their courses then to the building vp of themselues in their owne and in trueth rather to seperation from men not onely in euill but euen in that vvhich is good for some other euill conceaued in them then to vnion vvith God and his people in his holie ordinances and halfe imagining that they draw neer enough to God if they can vvithdraw far enough from other men Great zeale they haue against the false church ministerie and vvorship so being or by them conceaued so to be and against any appearing euill in the true but litle for that vvhich is true and good as their practice manifests but euill is as contrarie to euill as good is to euil and so is that zeale plainlie carnall vvhich carries a man further against euill then for good seeing no euill is fo euill as good is good Fourthly there are some to be found so sowred vvith moodines discontentement as they become vnsociable almost Lukanthropoi Werewolfs as they speake if they se nothing lamentable they are readie to lament If they take contentment in any it is in them alone vvhom they finde discontented If they read any bookes they are onely invectiues speciallie against publique states and their gouernours All things tending to accord and vnion any manner of vvay are vnwelcome vnto them They haue their portion in Ismaels blessing Genes 16. 12. Lastly there vvant not vvho as Iehu in his fierce marching couered his ambition crueltie and zeale for his owne house vnder the pretext of zeale for Gods thinke to couer and palliate their own both grosser and more proper and personall corruptions vnder a furious march not onely against the failings but the persons also failing of infirmitie in matters of church order and ordinances Who if they vvere vvell acquainted and duly affected with their owne both more voluntarie and greater sins vvould slack their Iehus peace yea turn their course though not to vvalke vvith others in euill vvhich God forbid yet to apply accommodate themselues vnto them in that which is good so far as possiblie they could obserue any vvay by the Lord opened vnto them I could instance in and name diuers perticuler persons monstrouslie growne out of kinde this vvay But that course I leaue vnto them vvho rather desire the disgraceing then the bettering of them against vvhom they deal or perhaps conceaue in their leauened hearts that there is no other vvay of bettering speciallie persons of meant condition then by shameing and disgracâ—ing them Genes 49. 5. 6. But let not my soule come in their secrete in vvhose habitations are such instruments of cruellic These things thus promised the objections follovv vvhich I haue either heard from others or can conceaue of my selfe most coullerable against the practize by me propounded And they are of two sorts Some of them are framed vpon supposition that the ministres in that church are in themselues lawfull of God but not yet to be heard by reason of the abuses and euills to be found in their ministrations Others vvithdraw hearin those the more vpon the contrarie supposition to vvit that the very order and constitution of that church and ministerie is papall and vnlawfull Novv the examination of the grounds of the one or other I vvill not in this place medle vvith but though both cannot be true vvill for the satisfieng of the vvithdrawers on both parts graunt for the present to either part their ground and so examine distinctlie vvhat exceptions they can or doe build herevpon But first for the former Supposing a church and the ministerie thereof essentiallie lavvfull it cannot but be lavvfull for the members of other churches in generall vnion and assosiation vvith it to communicate therevvith in things lavvfull and lavvfullie done seing the end of vnion is communion God hath in vain vnited persons and states together if they may in nothing communicate together But he who vvould haue vs receaue the vveak in faith vvhom God hath receaued vvould not haue vs
refuse the fellovvship of churches in that vvhich is good for any vveaknes in them of one sort or other And this vve haue so plainlie and plentfullie commended vnto vs both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first christian churchs in which many errours euils of all kindes vvere more then manifest and the same oft times both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them vvas rather to be vvished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any vvho desire to follovve their holy steps in faith tovvards God and charitie tovvards men and effectuall desire of their ovvne edification The objections of the former sort follovv 1. OBIECTION There is danger of being seduced and misledd by the errours taught in the astemblies ANSWERE 1. We must not loose the benefite of many main trueths taught Matth 5. chap 23. for daunger of some few errours 2. Cor 11. 19. ◠Ioh. 4. 1. 3. Speciallie in lesser matters Let such read Parker of church policy lib. 1. c. 39 This vvere to feare the deuill more then to trust God 2. There vvere in the Ievvish church in Christs time and in divers of the Apostolicall churches aftervvards more greater errours taught then are in any or ail the churches of England of vvhich also there are not a fevv vvhich if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practize all trueths as they keepe themselues carefully from errours might compare in this busines vvith any reformed church in Europe 3. This exception hath its vvayt against the hearing of Priests and Iesuites speciallie by the vveaker sort and lesseable to discerne of things that differ But not against many ministers of the church of England 2. OBIECTION He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed pertakes in all the sinnes of that church as he that sweares by the Alter sweares by the offrings vpon it vvhich it sanctifies Matth. 23. 19. 20. ANSWERE I partake not in the sinnes of any how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee or hovv neer vnto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed or remain vnreformed by my fault Othervvise Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church vvith vvhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances liuing and dyeng a member therof If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne and I by just order make complaint thereof to the church I haue done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him if he repent not but not to me except Popelike I vvould make my selfe the church I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth familie for the redressing vvherof I do not my duty in my place vvhich if I do in the church as I can I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there vvhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer vvanting povver to reforme them then to suffer it to blovv or rain because I hinder it not But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable deuise Hovv doth the church sanctifie the sinne of the sinner as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift vvhich before vvas not an offering actually but onely gold silver or other materiall So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne vvhich it vvas not before but onely suffers the sinne that vvas But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō to make them meet and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter yet this only follovves therevpon that as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring partakes vvith the offring so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill hath his part in the euill also And this I graunt vvillingly but deny as a most vain imagination that euerie one that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull joynes vvith it in vpholding the things vnlavvfull to be found in it Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it 3. OBIECTION But this course of hearing vvill offend weak brethren not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it ANSWERE 1. It vvill offend more and many of them vveakere and that more greeuously if it be not performed Secondly It is an offence taken and not giuen seeing the thing is in it selfe good in its kinde commaunded by God and in that perticuler by men in authoritie and directlie tending to mine edification and not like vnto eating of flesh or drinking of vvine or the like things of indifferent nature and left to my free libertie to vse or not to vse And these are the principall objections vpon the former ground they vpon the latter follovv There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare or haue spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England This hath been ansvvered but indeed sophisticallie and in passion Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said or vnsaid so he might gainsay his adversarie With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vpon priuat but not pressing at all in the body of the discourse that consequence but proceeding vpō other grounds and in trueth consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms publique licence gouernment ministry and the like dravvne to another sence then either I intended them or then the matter in question vvill permit Whereas he that vvill refute another should religiously take hold to his aduersaries meaning and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne should spell it as it vvere out of his vvords But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them against vvhom they haue the aduantage of the times favouring them like the vvind on their backs But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin I vvill on the contrarie vse all plaines and simplicity as in the sight of God that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is to the christian readers eye vvhat in me lieth And for the treatice mentioned it must be obserued hovv both in the title and body of the booke the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery c. vvhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church and the ministerie thereof vvho accordingly haue church communion in the publique acts and exercises of that church so is it not true of others vvhich are not members of not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combination
of daunger as they did for not falling downe as others did in the place ANSWERE 1. In the preaching of the truths of the Gospell no Idolatrous act is performed as there vvas 2. It must be knowne that approbation is properly in the heart and only the manifestation of approbation in outvvard gesture speech or writing Both the one and other are euill if the thing be euill But heare it must be considered that I may in cases do the same outvvard act vvhich others do and vvherein they manifest their approbation of idolatrie or other euill and yet I be free in trueth and deed from all such approbation and stain thereof The levves after Christs death and the taking avvay 2. Col. 15. and abolishing of the legall ordinances thereby circumcised their infants and frequentled the temple for purification and other mosaicall ceremonies as parts of Gods vvorshippe and still remaining of deuine institution Paul also circumcised Timothy entred the Temple for purification and yet did not approue any manner of vvay of the errour and euill in the Ievvish worshippers To come nearer home It is the custome in Popish countries that all that passe by a crosse must in honour of it leaue it on the right hand as they may by reason of the placeing of it comming or going Now if I ride vvith others that vvay I may do the thing that they doe and keep companie vvith them yet not honour the crosse as they do It is besides the former the manner that such as so passe a crosse should in further honour put of their hatt to the said crosse But if I do this also I plainly manifest an approbation of the superstition The reason of the difference is because I haue another iust cause to do the former-thing namely to keep on vvith my company but haue no just cause of the latter But now suppose that at the very place vvhere the crosse stands I meet vvith some friend or other to vvhom I ovve that eiuill respect of vncouering my head I may then do that lavvfully also vpon the former ground So if I had just and reasonnable cause either of comming or standing by the Magistrate to vvhom I ovve this ciuill honour vvhilst he is performing some act of Idolatrie in the streetes or els vvhere I might vpon the same ground go or stand vncouered by him vvithout just blame To applie these things to the objectiō moued seing no other cause could reasonnable be conceaued of the Kings commaunding such a thing or of their doing the thing at his commaundement saue the vvorshipping of the Idoll they in so doing could not haue escaped the just blame of Idolatrie But now I haue just causes more then one of my hearing and amongst the rest mine edification and therefore cannot be chalenged therein to approue of the ministers flate or standing Besides that as I formerly answered heare is no Idolatrous act performed 4. OBIECTION He that hears them preach hears them as Ministers of the church of England and as sent by the bishops and so in hearing them hears and receaue them that send them according to that of our Sauiour Luk. 9. 16. he that hears you hears me Iohn 13. 10. and he that despiseth you despiseth me and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent mee ANSWERE I graunt the former part of the objection and account the denying of it a point of familisme seing the officers of publique states in the executing of their offices are to be esteemed according to the publique lavves and orders of those states and not according to any vnder hand either course or intention by them selues or others They are heard as they preach and preach as ministers of the Bishops sending and of the parris hes receauing to vvhich they are sent by them And so I professe I heare them as the ministers of the Bb sending and of the Parishes sent to but not as my ministers either sending or sent to except I be of those parishes or at least in ecclesiasticall vnion vvith them Euery one vvhether of false a church or no church or excommunicated frō the church that hears me hears me as the Pastor of the church vvhich I serue but not as his Pastour I suppose nor in vvay of any his spirituall communion vvith mine office of Pastourshippe Secondly by hearing receauing there Christ meanes properly the hearking too beleuing and obeying the doctrine taught by the Apostles vvhich many despised vnto vvhom he apposeth the former that heard it Now the ministers in the parishes haue not the doctrines of the Gospell from the Bishops as they haue their office but from God in his vvord and so farre forth as a man hears that is hearkens too and receaues them by receauing it he so farre hearkes too receaues Christ. 5. OBIECTION Yet such as heare them haue communion which their office of ministery vvhat in them lyes ANSWERE That is they haue no communion at all vvith it if it lie not in them to haue any as it doth not If I hold vp my hand as high as I can I touch heauen vvith my finger vvhat in me lies Do I therefore at all touch it If such think to haue or that they haue any such communion it is their errour and ignorance but makes not the thing to be the more then if they thought not so 6. OBIECTION Is there then no communion at all betweene the teacher and taught vvhat profit the comes thereby such hearing ANSWERE The church officer feeds the flock and church ouer vvhich he is set Act. 20. 28 as the object of his ministery Such as come in being not in church-vnion therevvith heare him so doing And as a stander-by hearing me talke to or dispute vvith another though I speak not a vvord to him may reap as much and more fruit by my speche then he to vvhom I directed it so may and doth it often come to passe vvith him that hears the minister feed the flock vvhose minister he is though he be no part of it He may reap fruit by hearing him feed his flock or seing him minister baptisme to any member thereof Heare is communion only in the effects of the truthes taught It vvere vsurpation in any to pertake in a church priueledge vvhich the office of ministerie is that were not in a church-state first And so if hearing simply imported church-communion none but church-church-members might lavvfully heare 7. OBIECTION In the true church indeed is order that the church couenant go before church communion but not so in the false ANSWERE In the true church there may be vnlawfull church-communiō without a preceeding church-couenant as vvell as in the other to vvit if an act of communion properly passe betvveen the church and him that is no church-member as for example participation in the sacraments But hearing being not properly an act of communion cannot import communion necessarily vvith the one or other nor othervvise then according
to a foregoing church-vnion vvhereas to partake in the Lords supper imports communion in both lavvfull in him that is a lavvfull church-church-member and vnlavvfull in him that is not in such a church-state 8. OBIECTION But it is the order of the church of England that all that heare are and so are reputed members of that church ANSWERE I deny that there is any such order Let the lavv or cannon either be shevved that so orders things Excommunicates are permitted to heare sermons though not deuine seruice as they call it 2. What if there vvere such an order It no more either made or declared mee to be a member there then doth my dvvâ—lling in such or such a parishe make me a member of that parish-parish-church vvhich latter is indeed the lavv and order there If the church vvith me should make a lavv cannon or order that all that come in heare me preach should thereby become members of it vve vvere the more foolish in making such an order but they neuer a vvhit the nearer either for membershippe or communion 9. OBIECTION He that hears appears to haue communion with the church ministry and all appearance of euill is to be avoided 1. Thess 5. 22. ANSWERE The scripture is not to be vnderstood of all that appears euill to others out of an erronius and deceaued judgement for then vve must abstain from almost all good seing there are some to vvhom almost all good seemes euill but it is meant either of the doctrine in Prophesie of vvhich I haue some probable suspition of vvhich the Apostle seemes properly to speak or of that vvhich appears euill to a rightly discerning eye By this imagined exposition I might not hyre a house in a parishe vvhere I vvere not knovvne seeing thereby I appeare a parish-member 10. OBIECTION None can heare without a preacher nor preach except he be sent Rom. 10 14. 15. Therefore I cannot lawfully heare him that hath not a lawfull sending ANSWERE 1. That conclusion is neither in text nor sound I may lavvfully hear him that hath no lavvfull calling as I haue formerly shevved 2. The Apostles meaning there is not to shevv vvhat is vnlavvfull but vvhat is impossible It is impossible to beleeue vvithout hearing and impossible to heare vvithout preaching and impossible to preach vvithout the sending there intended that is vvithout Gods gracious vvork of Prouidence in raising vp of men by enabling and disposeing them to preach for the effectuall calling of the elect of God of vvhich he there speaks If any make question vvhether faith come by the hearing of the preachers there it is more questionable whether they themselues vvant not faith vvhich are so barren of charitie in vvhich true faith is fruitfull If faith come by the preaching in England to any it follovves therevpon that such preachers are sent in the Apostles sence 11. OBIECTION The sheep of Christ heare his voice but strangers they will not heare Ioh. 10. 3. 8. 27. ANSWERE Christ doth not there speak of the outvvard hearing but of the hearking vnto that is as he expounds himselfe vers 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 16. 27. of the knowing and beleeuing of his voice following it So chap. 9. I told you before and ye did not hear that is not beleeue vers 27. And God hears not sinners vers 31. that is approues not of them and their prayers So chap. 11. I know that thou bearest me alvvaies and a thousand times in the scriptures The drift of Christ in the place is without question to shew the difference betvveene such as vvere his sheep and such as vvere not his sheep His sheep heard his voice and they vvhich vvere not his sheep heard not his voice But they vvhich vvere not his sheep nor heard his voice as there he speaks heard him preach outvvardly as vvell as the rest vvhich vvere his sheep Besides they vvhich vvere his sheep and vvould not heare strangers in the Lords sence heard outvvardly those strangers preach and by hearing them discouered them to be strangers that is false prophets The strangers of vvhom he speaks vvere of the true church and of Israel but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule Such strangers none should heare that is beleeue and follovv 12. OBIECTION The scriptures both of the old and new testament vvarn Gods people of false Prophets vvhich the ministers of that church are haueing an vnlawfull calling ANSWERE 1. They vvarn Deut. 13. 3 not to hearken vnto them 1. Ioh. 4. 1 nor to beleeue them but to try them which without hearing them cannot be done Not that all false Prophets are to be heard by all that they might try them for that vvere to tempt God but I novv ansvvere the scriptures cited vvhich speake of Prophets in the true church vvhich vvere to be heard till they vvere orderly repressed or at least plainly discouered by their doctrine heard to be such 2. No mans vnlawfull outvvard calling makes him a false Prophet nor his outvvard lavvfull calling a true but his true or false doctrine only makes him a true or false Prophet A man may haue a lavvfull office of ministerie and yet be a false prophet if he teach false doctrine so may he be a true prophet if he teach the trueth though in an vnlavvfull and Antichristian state of ministerie Numb 2â— and 25. Yea Balaam vvas both a false prophet in cursing in purpose vvhere God would haue him blesse Ios. 13. 22 in teaching 2. Pet. 2. 15. 16. Balack to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel Rev. 2. 14. and yet a true prophet in blessing Israell by the spirit of prophecie Num. 25. 5. 9 10. c. and chap. 24. 2. 3. c. and vvord of the Lord put into his mouth He is a prophet that speaks or declares a thing past present or to come And to prophecie in our sence is nothing els but to speak to edification exhortation 1. Cor. 14. 3. and comfort He that doth this is a true Prophet He that speaks the countrary a false It vvere good if they in vvhose mouthes the chalenge of false prophets is rifest would better wey how themselues expound and applie the scriptures in their propheciengs lest notvvithstanding any outward lawfull church state they be deeper vvounded by the rebound of their accusations this vvay then their aduersaries 13. OBIECTION The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal or to Bethel Hos. 4. 15. 16. ANSWERE The meaning is plain and the vvords expresse that they vvere not to go thether to offend and play the harlot in ioyning to Idols vers 15. 16. 17. This I graunt is to be done in no place but deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by me pleaded for The scriptures euery vvhere forbid the going or comming to such places or persons as in or by vvhich some euill is done to vvit for the doing of any thing euill or vnlawfull in or vvith
thereof and vniting in the order and ordinances instituted by Christ the onely King and Lord of his Church and by all his disciples to be obserued and lastly that I cannot communicate with or submit vnto the said Church-order and ordinances there established either in state or act without being condemned of mine owne heart and therein prouoking God who is greater then my heart to condemne me much more And for my failings which may easily be too many one way or other of ignorance hearin and so for all my other sinnes I most humbly craue pardon first and most at the hands of God And so of all men whom therein I offend or haue offended any manner of way euen as they desire and look that God should pardon their offences FINIS HEER FOLLOWETH A true Copie of a Letter sent to London written by the Author of the former Treatise and read in publique and by the whole consent of the Church was sent to London in answere to a letter sent by the Church of London to the Church of Amstelredam and Leyden Which we haue thought good to Printe onely to let the World see what the Churchs opinion was of hearing in England the contents wherof followeth TO OVR BELOVE IN THE Lord the Church of Christ in London Grace and Peace from God the giuer thereof and in him our louing salutations IT may seeme strange vnto you brethren and that not vvithout cause that vve should haue deferred thus long our answere vnto your letter and as vnseasonable that after so long delay vve should now frame an answere Our defence in the former case is partly the other churchs keeping the same so long in their hands before they sent it vnto vs and partly their contentions arising about it of vvhich vve both desired to see some issue and hoped vvithall that by occasion thereof vve might come to communicate our counseills together as vve conceiue by your joint letter your desire to haue been But both in vain For the letter then partly fearing lest vve should seeme to neglect you and partly hoping that some vse might be made thereof for after times and occasions we thought it better late them neuer to addresse this our answere yet so as you are in the first place to be intreated by the Pastor of the church heare to take knowledge that he vvas not verie vvilling to read publiquelie that your letter for two reasons The one a loathnes that either strangers or brethren should take knowledge of that in ordinate and lawlesse course held by such there as both in regard of their yeares and learning and especiallie of their place in the church should haue being an example to the rest in vvisedome sobrietie and Christian forbearance speciallie in a case threating diuision and dissipation following therein Christ our great high Priest who being touched with the feeling of our infirmities can haue compassion of the ignorant Heb. 4. and 5. The true naturall mother vvould not consent to haue the liuing childe derided but the counterfeit vvas easily mooued therevnto how earnest soeuer she seemed to haue it accounted hers Secondlie For that he conceaues it not orderly that the bodies of churchs should be sent to for counseil but some choise persons Power and vnauthoritie is in the body for elections censures but counseil for direction in all affaires in some few In vvhich regard euerie perticuler church is appointed its Elderships for ordinarie counseillers to direct it and the members thereof in all difficulties vvith vvhom others are also to aduise vpon occasion speciallie ordinarie The Priests lips should preserue knowledge they should seek the Law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts Mal 2. These things premised our generall answere to the questions propounded by you followeth You demaind 1. Whether you haue done well in reâ—eining her to vvit the maid about vvhom the difference vvas she leauing practise according to her promise Answere We iudge that therein you did vvell yea though she had continued her practise vpon occasion and without neglect of the church wherof she vvas a member how much more leauing it as she did Considering the action it selfe the hearing of the word of God the great prouocations she had therevnto the state of the other church about vvhich your next question is moued and vvith all these that excommunication is the heauiest censure vvhich the church can inflict for the most heynous offence most obstinatly stood in we deem it against that brotherlie forbearance vvhich the stronger owes to the vveaker so seuerelie to censure a failing so supposed of that kinde To their assertion that she vvas an Idolator hauing broken the 2. Commandement for that Mr. Iakobs people vvere iudged Idolators in their going to the assemblies and therefore from 1. Cor. 5. If any called a brother be an Idolator c. We answere that heare are diuers consequences collections made vvithout rule of charitie or ground of trueth To graunt as the trueth is that manie things in the assemblies are against the second Commaundements vvhich forbids nothing but Idolatry expresly and by consequence vvhatsoeuer tends therevnto and vvithall that Mr. Iakobs people did partake vvith diuerse of these euills yet wee deny it to agree either vvith christianitie or ciuillitie in common course of speech to calenge euerie such practise as the committing of of Idolatrie or such person as Idolators The Lord Iesus teacheth Math. 5. 21. 22. that all vnaduised anger is against the sixth commaundement Thou shalt do no murder Is therefore euerie man that manifests vpon occasion any the least vnaduised anger to be chalenged as a committer of murther or murthererâ— so by proportion euerie lesse modest word gesture or fashion of apparrell is against the seuenth commandemsnt Thou shalt not commit adulterie Euerie vvronging of another by negligence vnprouidence or partiall affections vvhich euerie one lesse or more beares to him selfe though but in a half penny against the eight commaundement Thou shalt not steale are all therefore so doing to be pronouncied and prosecuted as theefes and adulterers {reversed} By these vain collections and bold chalenges searse any so good and godly but might be branded as Idolators â—heefes murderers adulterers and vvhat not For whoe can vnderstand his errours and secret faults {reversed} vvords are vnto things as cloathes vnto the body And as it were a vain course to put vpon a childe a mans coat though neuer so costly to make him seeme a man so is not onely vain but also injurious to put vpon the things vvhich vve dislike odious phrases though taken out of the verie seriptures to make them seeme vvorse then in trueth then are Indeed he that is vnder the Law iudgement therof doing the least euill against the 1. or 2. commandement is an Idolator and against the 6. 4 murtherer and so for the rest in regard of God and the rigour of justice whom yet for men so to call