Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	heathen_a	let_v	publican_n	2,742	5	10.9981	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

trespass against thee go and tell him of his fault betwixe him and thee alone and if he will not hear thee take with thee one or two more and if he will not hear them tell it to the Church and if he neglect to hear the Church let him be to thee at a Heathen and Publican and thus the Apostle was carefull to keep the Church visible purer Purge out from you the old Leaven saith Paul know you not that a little Leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump see and consider Haggai 1. 11 12 13 now you being such as are and ever were for the most part visibly nought cannot Answer those Parables if understood of the Church true it is that many Churches in the Apostles times had amongst them visibly bad they being degenerated from what he was but they were to remain but for a considerable time of tryal to see if they would be restored and if they would not be reclamed but prove contumacious they are to be delivered to that Kingdom from whence they For those which you so harp upon that was bad in the Apostolicall Churches and as bad as you say as yours these were not fit matter for a Church as such for such they were commanded to excommunicate 1 Cor. 5. 5 6 7. and forbad to have Communion with ver 11 12 13. sure was unfit matter for the Church came and for the objection that you say is so easily answered the Church being called Saints the denomination being taken from the better part I answer if you mean this if a Church at its first constitution it s abundantly false and you have spoken it without the least colour of Scripture or reason I challenge you or any Man in the World to produce one example in all the New Testament of any one Church that at its Constitution received one visible wicked Man and if not but all appeared Saints then undeniable it is that the denomination arose from the visibility of sanctity that appeared in all and so it was as the Scripture plainly declares to all that are willing to see If you mean it of a Church when degenerated from what they were it s nothing to your purpose because you for the most part were never visibly Regenerated it appears that the Churches after corrupted retained the name of Saints from that visible sanctity once they had and yet not past recovery to their former Estate for after they appeared past recovery see what they may be called Mat. 18. 17. all you say should be answer true therefore those that are not are as they should not be Some you say are true but that doth not shew that those that never were are to be accounted so nor that those that never were are to be accounted Church Members though amongst the other for then Babylon is a Church and a society of Saints for some Saints may be and have been there Rev. 18. 4. Those societies from which it is a Sin to separate are true Churches Arg. 16. D. B. but it is a Sin to separate from our Assemblies Ergo. That Church for separation from which there is as little reason as there was for separating from the Church whereof Christ professeth himself a Member John 4. 22. and so from the Church of Corinth it is a sin to separate from but there is little reason to separate from our Assemblies compare our Churches with the Church of the Jews in Christs time for Teachers and Rulers and you shall find as bad of both as with us if you say these Churches had a right Constitution and gathering I have proved ours have both The Minor of the first and also of the second Syllogism is denyed Answer 1. 0. and were our separation from you onely for the evilness of you it might easily be made appear that there is more reason to separate from you then either the Church of the Jews or Corinthians You have been so far from proving that Constitution true that after you had indeavoured it and see my answer to it you then deny that you were to prove any such thing see page the 2d Argument 2. and then page 6. at the Reply but the truth is you yet never were a Church at all you never having had any Gospel Constitution and where you say you have proved it there I have disproved it and proved it false where unto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words Those Churches that have brought forth a multitude of Martyrs Argument 17. Dr. B. for the Causes of Christ against Anti-Christ are no Anti-Christian but true Churches that ours have so is superfluous for me to prove Sir I desire you in your next to prove that the bringing over Answer 1. 0. of men to yield up their lives in the defence of some truths for these did no more is sufficient to prove the societies that so taught them true Churches go throughout all the diversities of Religions almost in the world and you shall find some so taught as were they called to it would yield up their lives and Seal some truths of Christ with their blood Rome it self I am confident would yield many Martyrs for the Cause of Christ in many real truths and though they could not be concluded Anti-Christian in that yet they might in many other things that they might hold that might be erronious Here are many societies in England that deny the Baptism of water to be practised upon any subject without which no society in the world can be accounted a visible Church and yet I am confident had they occasion rather than they would deny they would seal many precious truths of Christ with their blood and now upon your Argument they in so doing might be proved true Churches if what you say be true though they deny that without which no men can be esteemed so Secondly I desire to see it proved for yet you have not that the Parishes of this Nation did bring forth these Martyrs I rather think that the Parishes of this Nation were as willing to have them Martyred as those bloody men themselves that did it for that Parish that brought forth some that were Members of her to profess and dye for some truths must needs profess the same things themselves and so they should all have been Martyred for such was the blood-thirstiness of those men that all that would not submit to their abominations must dye But we see no such thing for only some few in some Parishes and in any one were Martyred and the rest not toucht which shews that the Parishes except some few were of the mind of those bloody men and so the edge of the Argument may be turned into your own Neck thus Those Churches that have consented to the Martyrdom of a multitude of those that dyed in the defence of the Cause of Christ are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation have so consented Ergo. Thirdly were all

way finally the Apostle Peter commands us all to be ready alwaies to give an answer to every Man that asketh us a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear if Gods honour and the good of those who ask require it both which I apprehended were concerned in my yielding to your motion and therefore embraced it le●ving the issue to God and for the same reason have I yielded to your secod motion made in the close of the third or fourth days disputation viz. that your Arguments and Answers and Replies and Rejoynders upon the first question might be put in Print and to your Proviso that at present I should make no Reply unto your answer to the Ten last Arguments as you would no Rejoynder to my Reply upon your Answers to the Nine first and if you have a mind you may rejoin your engagement to the contrary I free you from yea and give you liberty which you have already taken all along without check to oppose what you please and to take in also the help of Master Morley and those other seven who assisted you in disputation that the utmost you and they can object further against our Parish Churches may come under our view onely for your Readers sake I could wish you would forbear instead of arguing to make any more excursions by tedious impertinent Declamations against our Ministers and Members wherein all your Answers for the most part spend themselves which yet the Men of your own way will admire seriously but all others of any competent understanding ironically using Jobs words to Bildad Chap. 26. 3. How hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is suffer me to speak my thoughts and hopes when all is that can be said by their self or any other to overthrow the Parochial Assemblies of this Nation they will stand like Mount Sion which though it may be moved in its place cannot be removed out of its place and the Presbyterian Government which we are endeavouring to settle in our Congregations will prove like the Palm tree quae non cedit ponderi sed surgit adversum pondus Nor do I doub but when Christ our King hath turned his hand upon us and purely purg'd away our dross and taken away all our tin he will set up his throne and keep a standing Majesty in the midst of these golden Candle-sticks then they that are our enemies shall see and shame shall cover them which said unto us where is the Lord your God mean time we will bear the indignation of the Lord because we have sinned against him untill he plead our cause and execute judgement for us yea though he suffer you to kill us after three days and a half we shall revive and stand upon our feet and many out of all languages separate Societies shall relinquish their dividing principles and practices and take hold of the skirt of a Gospel Presbyterian saying we will go with you for we have heard that God is with you this is the hope and shall be the Prayer of Your loving friend and servant in the Lord JOHN BRYAN That the National Congregations of England are the true Churches of Christ saith Dr. John Bryan Minister in Coventry and these are his Arguments to prove it as followeth Denyed by Mr. JOHN ONLY with the grounds of his dissent in Answers to his Arguments WHether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Quest Churches Those Societies which the true Churches of Christ Argument 1. Dr. B. generally throughout the world own and acknowledge to be true Churches they are true Churches but the Parish Assemblies of England are so own'd and acknowledged therefore the Parish Assemblies of England are true Churches The Minor is undeniable for all the Reformed Churches of Europe gave us the right hand of Fellowship when we were much more corrupt then now and so have all the Churches of New-England done in their Treatise of Church Covenant and Answer to 32. Questions I put you to name one Church in the world that doth not acknowledge the Church of England to be the Spouse of Christ The Major is thus proved if the Judgement of the Churches See the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers published by W. Rathbad p. 7. of Christ ought to be taken for the Judgement of God then those Societies which they own and acknowledge to be true Churches are so but the former is true therefore the latter of the first Proposition there can be no doubt The second Proposition is evident from Mathew 18. 17. 18. He that will not regard the Judgement of that particular Church whereof he is a Member is to be esteemed as a Heathen or Publican Of how much sorer censure shal he be thought worthy that despiseth the Judgement of all the known Churches in the world Again Christ hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce of a particular man that he is in the Estate of salvation and that infallibly therefore he hath made it much more able to pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true Church which is a matter of no such difficulty as the other 1 Tim. 3. 15. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth but this it could not be if it should be ignorant of a Truth so necessary as this viz. what people are to be accounted a true Church That these societies by you mentioned may bear Testimony to yours to be true may be undeniable but then the Que●●ion will Answ I. O. be whether these by you mentioned be true Churches rightly cō●ituted according to Gospel order that which is the very question betwixt us is by you taken for granted before it be proved and brought in by you as an Argument to prove it self the Question you are to prove is that the Parishes of that Nation be generally true Churches which I deny and so consequently all other that be of the same Matter and Form Now those Churches which you bring to prove yours to be true are of the same Matter and Form with you and if you be false then they also and if they should differ either in Matter of Form from you they could not possibly confesse you to be true Now to say you are true Churches because other societies who are one for matter of substance with you say so is as much as if you should say we are true Churches therfore we are true Churches That the Testimony of such a Church as is by you mentioned Mat. 18. 1 Tim. 3. is to be taken according to the intent of those Scriptures I grant but then you must first prove that those Churches by you mentioned are such not so confidently beg the question till that be first done these Scriptures will not support your Conclusion Wheras you desire me to name one true Church in the world that does not acknowledge the Churches of England to be the Spouse of Christ that I shall doe in