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A01335 Tvvo treatises written against the papistes the one being an answere of the Christian Protestant to the proud challenge of a popish Catholicke: the other a confutation of the popish churches doctrine touching purgatory & prayers for the dead: by William Fulke Doctor in diuinitie. Fulke, William, 1538-1589.; Allen, William, 1532-1594. Defense and declaration of the Catholike Churches doctrine, touching purgatory, and prayers for the soules departed.; Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566. Notable discourse. 1577 (1577) STC 11458; ESTC S102742 447,814 588

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and graunts So M. Allen for euery matter when his owne reasons faile hath the concessions of his aduersaries which if they will not franckly make he wil forcibly compell them to say what he will haue them Last of all he sayth it is presumption such as toucheth the very prouidence of God with iniury to say that he letteth any sinner scape vnpunished which repented not vntill the houre of death as for whome he hath no scourge in the next life as he had here if death had not preuented his purpose But these he calleth childish cogitations but he might well haue termed them deuilish imaginations which will controule the wisedome and mercie of God vnder his blinde reason and corrupt affections and not suffer God to shew mercy vpon whome he will shew mercy Rom. 9. without his blaspemous and enuious murmuring His promise made so pleasauntely not to digresse from his fautlesse matter how perfectely he performeth we shall see afterwarde That the practise of Christes Church in the courte of binding and loosing mans sinnes doth liuely set forth the order of Gods iustice in the next life and proue Purgatory CAP. III. 1_THis being then proued that God him selfe hath oftē visited the sinnes of such as were very deare vnto him let vs now diligently beholde the graue authority of loosing and binding sinnes and the courte of mans conscience which Christ woulde haue kept in earth by the Apostles and Pastours of our soules where we neede not doubt but to finde the very resemblaunce of Gods disposition and ordinance in punishing or pardoning offensies For the honor and poure of this ecclesiasticall gouernement is by especiall commission so ample that it conteineth not onely the preaching of the Gospell and ministerie of the Sacraments but that which is more neare to the might and maiestie of God and onely aperteineth to him by proprietie of nature the very exact iudgement of all our secret sinnes with loosing and binding of the same For as God the father gaue all iudgement to his onely Sonne so he at his departure hense to the honor of his spouse and necessarie giding of his people did communicate the same in most ample maner as S. Chrysostome sayth to the Apostles and priestes for euer that they practising in earth terrible iudgemēt vpon mans misdeedes might fully represent vnto vs the very sentence of God in punishment of wickednesse in the worlde to come The princes of the earth haue poure to binde too but no further then the body but this other sayth he reacheth to the soule it selfe and practised here in the world beneth which is a straunge case hath force and effect in heauen aboue The poure of all potentates vnder the maiestie of the blessed Trinitie in heauen and earth is extreme basenesse compared to this By this graue authoritie therefore the Pastors and Priestes imitating Gods iustice haue exercised continually punishment from the spring of Christian religion downe till these dayes vpon all sinners perpetually enioyning for satisfying of Gods wrath penaunce and workes of correction either before they would absolue them as the olde vsage was or els after the release of their offensies which now of late for graue causes hath bene more vsed In which sentence of their iudgement we plainely see that as there was euer accomp● made amongest all the faithfull of paine due vnto sinne though the very offense it selfe and the giltinesse as you would say thereof were forgiuen before so we may gather that it was euer enioyned by the priestes holy ministerie after the qualitie and quantitie of the fault committed VVhereupon they charged some maner offenders with certaine prayers onely other with large almose diuerse with long fasting many with perilous peregrinations some with suspending from the sacraments and very greuous offenders with curse and excommunication VVhereby thou maiest not onely proue that there is paine to be suffred for thy sinnes but also haue a very image of that miserie which in the next life may faule not onely to the damned for euer but also to all other which neglected in this time of grace the fructes of penaunce and workes of satisfaction for the aunswere of their liues past This great correction of excommunication and separation from the sacramentes S. Paule termeth the rodde wherewith he often threatened offenders yea and some times though it was with great sorow the punishment was so extreme he mightely in Gods steade occupied the same As once against Himeneus and Alexander and an other time towardes a Corinthian vpon whome being absent he gaue sentence of their deliuery vp to Satan not to be vexed of him as Iob was for the increase of merite sayth Chrysostome but in their flesh meruelously to be tormented for paiment for their greuous offensies and as the Apostle writeth of the Corinthian that his soule might be false in the day of our Lorde CAP. III. 1 BEcause this man would shew him selfe mindeful of his promise hereafter he is euen now wandered out of Purgatory into excommunication which notwithstanding he counteth no digression at all because it doth set forth the order of Gods iustice in the next life and proue Purgatory which were neither so nor so but that he hath a speciall grace to make all thinges serue his purpose though they be neuer so farre from it Omnia ex omnibus he can make what he liste of euery thing We confesse the power of excommunication geuen by Christ vnto his Church and the seueritie of the punishment thereof to be greater then the swelling wordes of M. Allens eloquence can expresse but where as he addeth that it hath bene the perpetuall vsage of Gods church for satisfying of Gods wrath to enioyne penaunce and workes of correctiō before they would absolue which was the olde custome or els after the release of their offence which was the new fashion he sheweth him selfe ignoraunte of the right vse and end of that auctoritie which our Sauiour hath committed vnto his Church For the chiefe ende of this discipline is to bring the sinners to repentaunce which if it may be obtained by admonitiō the sworde of excommunication must not be drawen out As appereth plainely by Christes owne wordes Matth. 18. If priuate admonition where the offence is not publike may preuaile to winne our brother there needeth no witnesse to be called If two or three may serue to admonish the matter neede not to be referred to the Churches knowledge and he that heareth the Church so that by the admonition thereof he is brought to harty repentaunce is not to be cut of from the Church nor to be deliuered to Sathan for how should the Church refuse him whome God receiueth But if he obstinatly contemne the gentle admonition of the Church or as our Sauiour saieth if he refuse to heare the Church then let him be as an heathen or publicane For afterwarde if being excommunicated he shew harty tokens of repentaunce
God and not of them and the sacrifice is the body of Christ which is not offered vnto them because they them selues are the same Here also beside building of churches note that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs but prayer is a sacrifice therefore it ought to be offered onely to god Secondly that Martyrs were not called vpon in tyme of the sacrifice but onely named for remembrance Thirdly that Altares were not builded in the honor of Martyrs or other Sainctes as they be in Popish churches as our Ladies altar S. Peters altar S. Laurences altar c. Fourthly that the bodie of Christ which he sayeth was the sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall bodie because he sayeth the Martyrs and it are all one whereby it is manifest that he meaneth the sacrifice of thankes giuing offered to God for the redemption of his church by the death of Christ. Wherfore if this one place were well wayed it will interpret and aunswere all places of the auncient doctors where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the communion But to returne to building of churches the same Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianum Lib. Titul 11. hath these wordes Nunc si templum alicui sancto angelo excellentissimo de lignis lapidibus faceremus anathematizar emin a veritate Christi ab Ecclesia Dei quoniam creaturae exhiberemus eam seruitutem quae vni tantum debetur Deo Si ergo sacrilegi essemus faciendo templum cuicunque creaturae quomodo non est Deus verus cui non templum facimus sed nos ipsi templum sumus that is If we shoulde builde a temple of wodde and stones to any holy and most excellent Angel shoulde we not be accursed from the Trueth of Christ and from the Church of God because we should shew that seruice vnto a creature which is due onely vnto God Therefore if we shoulde be sacrileges by making a temple to any creature how is he not true God to whome we doe not make a temple but we our selues are a temple If this be true how be not the Papistes accursed from the Trueth of Christ and from the Church of God which builde and vpholde churches to Angells as S. Michaels S. Gabriels c So that to builde churches as Papistes doe is church robbing or sacrilege Furthermore whereas you will vs to name one church whose chancell is not builded in all fashions to serue poperie First it is manifest that the first Churches which were builded for Christians had not the same fashion of chancels and other partes that most churches haue in Englande for that purpose reade the Panegyricall oration made before Paulinus byshop of Tyrus Euseb. lib. 10. cap. 4. In which is described the fashion of that church builded in that citie farre vnlike the moste parte of churches at this day in all partes and specially in the chācel which was in the middest of that church a place compassed in with grates or wodden latesses called Cancelli wherof this worde chancel is deriued and the aultar stoode in the middest of it wherof some similitude remaineth yet in olde Cathedrall churches Contrariwise your chancells in most churches be at the East ende and the aulter hard at the wall there was also but one alter in that church but you in euery church must haue many it is certaine also in their church the Ministers and Deacons stoode rounde about the table or a●lter but so they can not about your aultars except some of them stande on the toppe of the wall or in the windowe Moreouer if you marke the most parte of olde churches in Englande you shall plainely see that the chancells are but additions builded sence the churches of likelihoode by the parsons that disdained to haue their place in the middest of the people as the olde manner was Also you may see some churches builded rounde as at London the Temple and another is at Cambridge of the same fashiō And some churches haue the steple at the Est ende very vnhandsomely for placing of the roode lofte Againe many churches haue crosse Isles in which the people can not see the chancell nor the high aultar which argueth that there was no vse of such chancells when they were builded For such churches as are latelie erected haue the chancell and church all of one building and are made of such fashion that men maye see the highe aultar in euery parte of them Beside this in the Orientall church as their ceremonies are diuers from yours so no doubt the fashion of their temples differeth from yours As for chalices the church in the beginning was cōtent with wodden cuppes and then came Zepherinus and brought in the vse of glasses Acacius Amidenus is commended for selling the golden and siluer vessels of the church to redeme captiues Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 21. S. Ambrose also Offic. lib. 2. cap. 8. sayth the church hath golde not to kepe it but to be bestowed for necessarie vses for which it is lawfull to breake melt and sel euen the holyest vessells of all But of your church it is true that one said of olde time ye had wodden chalices and golden priestes but now you haue golden chalices and wodden priestes your vestimentes are of as good stuffe as your chalices The olde church knew none such but as your owne Authors write when they wente to celebrate they changed the affection of their minde rather than the garmentes of their body as Antoninus witnesseth of Fulgentius Howbeit we are content that your church by her gorgeous garments as well as by other thinges shoulde declare it selfe to be that woman which is described to be clothed in purple golde perles and such like ornamentes Apoc. 17. Finally wheras you will vs to name one church that for the speciall intent of the builders was not prepared in all sortes for Popish practises Although I could name many yet for examples sake I name Pantheon a church in Rome prepared by the speciall and onely intent of the builders fo● Cybelle the great mother of the gods and for all false gods of the heathen which now is called the church of Mary and Alhalowes Then this church with many other in Rome and other places being monuments of the faith and religion of the Paganes and not of yours except yours and theirs be all one as they are very like you are bounde by your promise to recant The 15. article conteyneth in effect 3. demandes 1 Againe name any one company of men in the Christen world that in all articles of Faith be in one meaning and belefe IT is an easie matter to name diuers companies agreeing in one meaning beliefe as the church of the Grecians the church of the Aethiopians the church of the Chaldeans Moscouites c. But especially the whole company of Protestantes in Europe doe agree in all necessary articles of true faith by
hearte or eare coulde abide these blasphemous tongues● who of vntolerable arrogancy doe so deface the examples and doctrine not onely of the pillours of the whole Christian Church whome they impudently for lacke of a more reasonable aunswere condemne not onely of simple ignoraunce and errour in this point with the residue of the whole faithfull people which surely is ouer much to say of such learned and godly men as they were but also of wilfull errour and superstition in bearing and maintenaunce of the common ignoration and ethnicke perswation of the worlde in their dayes and following the heathen vsage of the gentilitie And yet not content therewith these lying maisters of their meere mercy be content to offer a pardon to the author of that booke for his errour which booke the whole catholike Church of God through out Christiandome taketh for canonicall scripture VVhich arrogancy and passing boldnesse although I perswade my selfe no vertuous man will in them allowe sith they nowe being put to their shiftes vtterly doe condemne those fathers whose names with great oftentation they often to the simple repeate to make them suppose they be not with out scripture or doctors for the proofe of their willfull heresies yet euen the very a●nswere it selfe which they imagine here in to disgrace the doctors and delude the ignoraunt is contrary to it selfe in sundry points For they one while affirme that S. Augustine and others allowed that errour which the people by their superstitious deuotion had before their time brought in to the prayers of the Church and an other while that Iudas Machabaeus did institute it who was before these authors diuars hundreths of yeares and somewhile that they borowed it of the gentilitie all which pointes be repugnant eche to other For neither coulde that beginne in our Christian doctours dayes which was vsed before Christes birthe neither neede they to borowe it of the heathen which was in estimation and praysed amongest the Iewes 9 We neede no shiftes M. Allen for the authoritie of the doctors whome we neuer allow for canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say as Augustine sayth of Cyprian what so euer we find in them agreable to the Scriptures we receaue it with their prayse and what so euer is disagreeable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Now by what meanes they fell into this errour that maintained prayer and almes for the dead I shal haue better occasion to shew in the aunswere to the 14. chapter although it be not greatly material to know how they came into errour when it is sufficiently proued that they did erre As for the abridgement of Iason the Cyrenians story which M. Allen maketh such a precious iewell I haue aunswered inough before that the author him selfe desiring pardon of his readers hath testified sufficiently that he was no scribe of the holy Ghost as also by many other vnauoydable reasons with the consent of the Catholike Church which it were superfluous here to repete Finally whereas you say that our aunswere is contrary to it selfe you seeke a knot in a rush For all may be true First the deuill suggested superstitious deuotion into the Gentiles by peruerse emulation of whom Iudas might be deceiued and his fact giue occasion to the ignorant people of errour and their ignorance first winked at because it had a shew of pietie confirmed by custome might at length be allowed of Augustine and others who neuer weighed the matter by Scriptures but by the commō practise And this I thinke is the right degree of prayers for the deade and purgatory That the praying for the dead vvas appointed to be had in the holy sacrifice by the Apostles commaundement and prescription And that our doctors by the maiesty of their name beare dovvne our light aduersaries CAP. XIII 1 BVt that this falshood may better appeare in these men we will by good testimony trye out when and by whom the oblation and sacrifice with other ordinarie reliefes of the departed were so vniformely vsed through the Christian worlde as like wise it shall be profitable to consider who were the first authors of the contrary opinions And that the holy Ghost by the Apostles owne preaching and prescription was the first author of this solemne supplicatiō in masses of all vsages for the departed I might first proue by this generall rule of S. Augustine Quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia nec concilijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate apostolica traditum rectissime credimus that which the whole Church obserueth and hath alwayes so bene kepte being not instituted by any Councell it can not otherwise be had but by the Apostles authoritie and tradition And so by the like saying of Leo the greate Dubitandum non est quicquid in ecclesia in consuetudinem est deuotionis retentum de traditione apostolica de S. Spiritus prodire doctrina It can not be doubted but that what so euer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and mainteined it came out of the Apostles traditiō and doctrine of the holy Ghost But I will seeke with them by certaine demonstration and plaine ordre of reason that it must needes so be Praying for the deade was inuented by no man sith the Apostles dayes there can no one be named by the aduersary before whome I can not name an other that praide for the dead Let him say where he list this man or that man was the first that euer praide for the deade in Christes Church if I can not shewe an other before him so named to haue praide also we will take him for the first author and then he fully stoppeth our course that we can not bring this obseruation so high as the Apostles dayes But if the aduersary can apoint me out no time nor person that began this vsage before which I am not able to proue it was practised then they can not let vs but we must needs driue it vpwarde to the Apostles and Christes owne institution CAP. XIII 1 IF prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges there is warrant ●or lesser matters then this is made of why is this and all other popish trash counted their tradition which can not be warranted by their writing If I were disposed to pose you this question would make you clawe your poll an hundred times before you could imagine any coulo●able aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make But I take not vpon me to pose but to aunswere first your authoritie of Augustine serueth not your turne for prayers for the deade haue not bene alwayes obserued namely in the Apostles times nor long after The saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epi. 10. Sed in hanc insipientiam cadunt qui cum ad cognoscendum veritatem aliquo impediuntur