and Knew the voice of their Church and therefore according to the Doctors own assertion needed it not But perhaps the Doctor will say that for the Verbal Translation of the Scripture the Protestants are not necessitated to have recourse to particular Men the Bible being Translated to their hands and warranted by public Authority tho' here too they will be at a loss unless it appear to them that they may confide in this Authority but for the Sense in all dubious places they ought to Address themselves to their Ministers They may do it if they please And if not I suppose they may let it alone and this last with most safety For according to our late Divines all things necessary to Salvation are plain in Scripture and therefore to look after the meaning of dubious places is to do more than of bounden Duty is required and has the appearance of a Work of Supererogation which is such an abominable thing with the Church of England that they have a whole * See 14th Article Article against it and declare that it cannot be taught without arrogancy and impiety much less as I suppose PRACTISED Wherefore as yet there appears no cause why the Apprentice should be chidden for not having waited on Dr. T. in this occasion And indeed if that be the case viz. That the Members of the Church of England are to go to their Ministers for the Construction of these dubious places I do not perceive that they have any great advantage over those of the Church of Rome tho' what the Doctor says were true viz. That Roman Catholics were to apply themselves to particular Priests for the Translation of the Scriptures since the Protestants themselves must make the same application for the Sense and Meaning of these Scriptures And this Sense is that which is of the greatest importance or rather That which is of any Importance at all But in Truth they are not particular Priests which Catholics depend on for either the Translation or Sense of the Scripture in any necessary Point of Faith but it is on their Church whose Voice is as Intelligible at least and with the Doctors leave much farther Heard than that of the Church of England For is it not full as evident in England and much more evident in other Parts of the World that the Church of Rome Teaches a Purgatory than it is that the Church of England Teaches the contrary And so of other Doctrins This is an Age wherein Men whilest they Scepticize on evident Truths are Positive in Absurdities and therefore there want not Those who ask how the Members of the Church of Rome can know what their Church holds But when they shall have considered how they themselves come to know what That Church holds whilest they Condemn it's Doctrins as also how a Man may come to understand what is held by the Church of England they will not I suppose expect any farther Answer This were it not so Common and even with Men of no Common Wit would have been too frivolous to have been taken notice of One endeavor which I used for the speaking somewhat of a Guide in Controversie was on the following occasion Dr. T. having called me to him and desiring as he said that * Pag. 21. Mr. P. would stick to something took upon him to explain a Text of Scripture which had been long before Cited by Mr. P. for the Authority of the Church viz. That of St. Matthew c. 18. v. 17. If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican The Doctor said that considering the Antecedent Verses this ought to be understood of ordinary Trespasses such as the not paying of a just debt c. And not of Articles of Faith making use of a tedious Instance to that purpose the summ whereof was * Ibid. that in case a Man should refuse to pay his debts after one or two demands he is put into the Ecclesiastical Courts supposing it proper for their cognisance And if he will not stand to their Sentence then he is Excommunicated and Treated as such a One. Whereupon I told the Doctor that for my own part I understood that Text of Scripture quite otherwise than he did being persuaded that we were obliged by it to Hear the Church in all those things wherein the same Church doth declare that she hath Power to Judge And most especially in matters of Faith Which in their own Nature seem more proper for the Cognisance of Ecclesiastical Courts than a Question of Debt That it was not unusual for our Blessed Saviour on a particular occasion to deliver a general Precept as for instance when the Jews ask'd him whether or no it were lawful to pay Tribute to Caesar he * Mat. c. 22. v. 19 c. called for the Tribute-mony and ask'd whose Image it bore and being Answered that it was Caesars he gave this Rule Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesars Which Rule I suppose is general and hath regard not only to Tribute but also to whatever else is due from Subjects to Sovereign Princes as Respect Obedience and the like tho' the occasion on which the Rule was made and that which immediately preceded it seem to be Particular and to look no farther than his Pecuniary Rights That in like manner tho' this Text viz. If he will not hear the Church c. might be spoken in a Particular occasion it could not be thence inferr'd that it was not of a more large Extension especially if we should compare it with other Texts such as are * Joh. c. 20. v. 21. As my Father sent me so I send you * Matth. c. 28. v. 19 20. Go and Teach all Nations and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the World. a Luke c. 10. v. 16. He that Heareth You Heareth ME c. b Eph. c. 4. v. 11 c. And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry c. That we henceforth be no more Children c If Pastors are left to keep us from being tossed to and fro it follows that we must hearken to them as also that they must be kept from being tossed to and fro themselves Otherwise they will not be able to effect that for which they were left tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of Doctrin c. d Hebr. c. 13. v. 17. Obey those that are set over you for they watch as being to render account for your Souls All which places at least according to my own Judgment are clear for that Perpetuity and that Authority of the Church which are believed by Roman Catholics But above all this Truth seems to be most apparent to me when I consider what immediately follows in this place of Scripture viz. When
our Saviour had said If he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican which is the subject of our present Controversie He adds in the very next Verse speaking to his Church Verily I say unto you whatsoever you shall Bind on Earth shall be Bound in Heaven c. * The Doctor ought to have considered what came after his Text as well as what went before the one having as manifest a regard to it as the other This Term WHATSOEVER whether it regard the Persons or the Things which fall under the Ecclesiastical Censure or else Both is of a most general Signification So that it is evident that the Power given in this place hath no other Restriction or Limit but the Will and Determination of those to whom it is given there being nothing more required for the Binding or Loosing a Thing in Heaven than that the Church should determin to Bind or Loose it on Earth Which proves what I asserted above viz. That the Church hath Power to Judge in all those things wherein she Declares Her self to have it It is true however that being always Guided by the same Holy Spirit which invests her with this Authority she can never Declare Her self to be our Judge but where she ought and where it is highly for our Advantage that she should be so My Discourse on this occasion was to this effect but as I have said of those on other subjects much shorter tho' this was the fairest opportunity of speaking that Dr. Tenison allowed me during the whole Conference In Conclusion I assured the Doctor that I was wholly convinced that the abovementioned Text as I declared before had quite another meaning than what he gave of it And therefore I ask'd him whether being so convinced as I was I ought to follow his Interpretation or my own He Answered that he would appeal to the Company whether the Sence which he gave of the place were not * Had it been plain it would not have stood in need of his explanation plainly so I told him that this would not serve my turn for tho' that Company should happen to be all of his Mind as they were not there being some amongst them of my own Judgment yet so long as my opinion continued as it was I should be still at the same loss unless the Doctor could inform me whose Judgment I was to trust my Own or Theirs The Doctor said that for the right Interpretation of Scripture I ought to examin the Originals consult Learned Men * Why so much ado for what be said was plain Had the Company he appealed to done all this c. Whereas said he this Boy did none of these things he came not to Me nor to his Master c. and so striking out of the Road with a Cavil about the Boy I could never get him into it again Had I been able to have held him to the Point a little longer he must have granted me according to his own principle of Every ones Power of Judging for himself That seeing I Judged the Sense of Holy Scripture to be Different from what he thought I was as much bound to dis-believe his Doctrin as he was to believe it Which would have been an excellent instance how much Dr. Tenison's Rule of Faith tended to the Vnity of it And undoubtedly must have sounded very strangely in the Ears of his Parishioners notwithstanding their great esteem and affection for him Which I question not but the Doctor was well aware of and therefore thought it more to his purpose to chide the Boy for not having wash'd his Face as the Story goes of such another Answerer than to suffer the Disputation to proceed And yet this is the Doctor who in this very place desires that his Adversary would * Pag. 21. stick to something But non videmus id Manticae quod à tergo est I have already taken notice of a Sentence or two which the Doctor sets to my account more than I can remember my self to have been guilty of There is another of them pa. 21. viz. Mr. M. asked Dr. T. if he could tell Chapter and Verse throughout the Bible And I think there are one or two more of the like nature But they are of so little importance one way or other that tho' I believe they were never spoken by me yet they shall be said or not said as the Doctor pleases But touching what he says pa. 18. Of something spoken to me about the Conference betwixt some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome and Dr. Stillingfleet and Dr. Burnet I remember nothing of it Neither had I any concern in that Conference or in any thing relating to it In the Doctors 22d and 23d Pages the Reader will find the following Lines After this Dr. T. said to Mr. P. there was one thing remaining and fit to be said to him He had in a Printed Paper promised not to tamper about Religion with the Protestant Boys who should come to the Savoy-School it had appeared that he tampered with Boys out of his care and would do so much more with those under it he said it did not follow because of his word which he would not break and that for this Boy he had done it in order to his everlasting Salvation Dr. T. answered that being your Principle that all out of your Communion are Damned you being a Jesuit and a Papist must break your word in that Paper for the necessary good as you think of the Souls of the Boys especially you having hope of turning Boys under your care Mr. M. said to Dr. T. This reflects upon the King. Another more loud this reflects upon the King and suggests that he will break his word And Mr. P. joyned in the Accusation but many of the Hearers cryed out against them and said it was a Knavish trick Mr. M. was going away Dr. T. called to him and desired him not to run away with a false Tale. Mr. M. denyed he said such words Dr. T. told him he did and that for his part he thought his Loyalty at this time to be more valuable than Mr. M's Because he as a Son of the Church of England professed he would not Rebell against the King notwithstanding he might be of another Religion whereas Mr. M. being of the same Religion could not so well separate Loyalty from Interest Dr. T. being concerned at this false and unworthy way of catching Men did say to Mr. M. at the Door of the first Room that if he had persisted in this Trick he could not have forborn to have given him the Name of Evidence Meredith Here it is that the Doctor Storms indeed Here it is that his Rage breaks forth Hunc tu Romane Caveto Here it is that he manifests the Truth of what he tells us in his Epistle to his Parishioners and convinces us at length that amidst so many things there
he had only brought me with him That I came meerly to observe what passed in the Conference and was not to dispute in it That if the Doctor did not approve of me he would take another Or if the Doctor so pleased he was content that all should retire excepting only the Doctor himself together with the Boy for whose sake as Mr. P. had always understood the Conference was held How much of this is in the Doctors True Account And yet the Doctor if you will believe him pa. 43. is too blunt a Man to be a Man of Artifice After this he says Against Mr. Meredith Dr. T. made three Objections And again pa. 5. After these exceptions taken at Mr. M. as a witness Dr. T. perceiving it next to impossible to clear the Room c. called Mr. Meredith to him Whereas he called me to him on mine and Mr. P s proposing to have the Controversie taken in writing and he had then made but one of his Objections against me And then for the Impossibility of clearing the Room the Doctor never put it to the Tryal nor came to any agreement with Mr. P. about it I am sure that the Room might very easily have been cleared of my Company and therefore I wonder how the Doctor after such solid exceptions taken at Mr. M. as a witness came to call Mr. Meredith to him and place himself between Mr. P. and Mr. Meredith One would think that Dr. Tenison were framing a piece of Dramatic Poetry and that he thought it allowable for him to vary from the true History as often as it was for the advantage of his work which as the Reader will perceive by what he finds here is very often Indeed the Doctors Narrative is like the wrong side of the Hangings where there is nothing right or in its due proportion but a confused Resemblance of what it should be And this is sufficient to deceive those who are either by interest or humor very willing to be deceived The Doctor then sitting down and causing us Mr. P. and my self to place our selves by him said as I have already told you that he would treat of some Preliminaries But the Coast being now clear and in appearance the danger of having the Arguments Penn'd down quite over Dr. Tenison perhaps for my having been so unfortunate as to propose Writing was resolved to have another bout with me He told me that he had other Objections against me and * Dr. T 's 2d Objection against me one was that I had been already Disposing of his Parish and had canton'd it out for Fryers This Objection I must confess was a most sensible one but it was not more touching to the Doctor than it was astonishing to me since I could not remember that I had ever had the least thought of any such thing But the Dr. adding That I had said his Benefice would maintain Thirty Fryers and that his friend Captain O. had given him the Information I discovered whence this grand Objection had it's rise or rather it's pretence I called to mind that in some discourses concerning the great want of Charity and Religious Zeal which had come into the World together with the Reformation or if you please usher'd it in amongst other things I said that this appeared not only in the discontinuance of Missions abroad for the Conversion of Infidels but likewise in the scarcity of Pious and Charitable works at home I instanced particularly that whilst Men were busie in Building private Houses they took no care for Churches And that hence it came to pass that the Parishes in the Suburbs were unreasonably large and that it must needs be impossible for the Curates and those few Readers their Assistants to comply with the Duties belonging to their Employments in such manner as they ought I observed that in the Parishes within the Walls which were Established before the Reformation there seldom died above one or two a week in each Parish and in some of the out-Parishes there died for the most part forty or fifty So that according to the Proportion appointed by our Ancestors we ought to have thirty or forty Parishes and Parish-Churches instead of one I said farther that where forty or fifty died in a week there were probably ten or twenty times as many sick and in danger of death Who would all stand in need of their Pastors help And how could it be possible for one Man or indeed any ten Men to visit a thousand persons every week which amounted to more than a hundred and forty a day one day with another staying with them so much time as was necessary for the giving them the Communion and doing all those other things which are appointed to be done by the Common-Prayer-Book in the Visitation of the Sick as also for the Instructing Exhorting and Comforting them as occasion shall be seen I said how could it be possible for so small a number of Men to do all this and yet at the same time comply with all their other Parochial Functions such as were Reading Common-Prayer Daily Preaching once or twice a Week Marrying Burying Christening Catechizing Reconciling Enmities Resolving Doubts with many other things of this kind which are incumbent on Curates and whereof there is scarce any one Branch which in these large Parishes is not enough if not too much for one Man. Wherefore for the future Dr. T. needs not take so much pains to convince the World that he is able to Dispute against Nine Jesuits at once since those who can believe that he performs what of necessity must be incumbent on him in two such populous Parishes as he possesses will easily be perswaded that he is able to make his party good against forty of those Fathers Nay he may well be equal to Nine Priests who has the Employment of above an Hundred I said likewise That I had heard there were Thirty Thousand Communicants belonging to St. Martins Parish if not more that if these should have a mind to Assemble together for the receiving the Sacrament or hearing a Sermon it would not be possible for them to do it The Church as I supposed not being able to contain one quarter of that number and that the English Clergy ought not to wonder that there were so many Dissenters since their Parishioners were forced to go to Meeting-houses for Elbow-room or even for any opportunity of doing something like the serving of God. And for this reason They ought not to have manifested so much Zeal for the Suppression of Conventicles till the fervor of their exhortations had inspir'd More into their hearers for the Building of Churches To this I added That over and above that in Catholic Countries the Parish Priests were more numerous and held a better proportion with their Flocks than amongst us there were great numbers of Regulars or Religious Men who were no small assistance to the Secular Clergy in saying Mass Preaching Catechizing Hearing
Confessions and the like But that this I meant such a plentiful provision of Spiritual Guides was not so practisable in England in regard that most of the English Curates had Families to provide for and consequently stood in need of greater Benefices than those who had obliged themselves to a single Life And for the same reason what was sufficient for many Pastors beyond Seas would scarce be enough for one here Especially I said the Regulars were maintained for very little and that 600 l. per annum which I heard the Parsonage of St. Martins was worth tho' perhaps it may be more would keep Thirty of them at least with the conveâ—â—ence of an House to dwell in Hinc illae Laohrymae Now such Discourses as these I do confess that I have made more than once and particularly I remember that I spake somewhat of this kind to C. O. and I am so far from being ashamed of it that I cannot but think that the cause of shame lies at their door who are more concerned for the extent of their Jurisdiction or Profit than for the benefit of the Souls committed to their care And when I understand that Dr. Tenison is one of those it is then that I shall begin to do what he said I had done viz. pity the State of St. Martins It was according to what I have said here that I answered the Doctor telling him withal that I had spoken of the largeness of the Out-Parishes in general and not of his in particular And this as one would have thought would have satisfied any reasonable Man. But the French say A scalded Cat dreads cold Water and it seems the Doctor which I then knew nothing of had so deep an * See the Drs. Epistle to his Parishioners Impression made on him in his Youth by the loss of his Fathers Benefice that now the least hint which so much as brings it to his mind raises his Suspicion and Indignation to an high degree Moreover the Doctor seemed to take it ill that I undervalued the Reformed Charity and said that there were too many Churches within the Walls and that in some places there were two in one Church-Yard He talked somewhat likewise of an Act of Parliament for Building of Twelve new Churches for the Suburbs which was no small confirmation of what I had said of the want of them I looked on that compulsive way of doing good Works as not so * Certainly the Statute of Mortmain was a better sign of the Charity of former Ages than this Act for building Churches is of that of the present clear a Demâ—â—stration of Charity as when they are done voluntarily and without constraint and therefore I told the Doctor that it argued some defect in theirs that it stood in need of Acts of Parliament for doing things which were in a manner absolutely necessary The Doctor answered that he wish'd he could see some of our Charity or some such like words What he meant by this wish I could not well tell viz. whether he would have us employ our present Liberty in Building Churches that when time served they might dispossess us of them as they did of our Antient ones and so be Provided without burthening the People by Act of Parliament or something else In this doubt I asked him only whether he would have us Build Churches now in England To which he made me no answer but seemed to attempt something for the proof of Protestant Charity But all that I can remember he said was that he would not brag of himself Which I esteemed a Rhetorical way of doing it And certainly he must needs be put hard to it for an instance of Charity who is forced so far to intrench upon Humility for it as to begin with himself I am not ignorant all this while that some Hospitals Alms-houses and Churches have been Built by Protestants But there is more proportion between Dr. Tenisons two Parishes and a couple of the poorest Vicaridges in Wales than there is between the Monuments of Catholic Zeal * For some proof of what is here said see a Book lately Primed at Oxford called Pietas Romana Parisiensis By which in some measure the rest may be guessed and whatever of that kind hath been done by Protestants It will be a great while before the Reformation builds the fortieth part of what it hath pulled down Nay supposing that this poor Nation is not to return to it's Antient Religion there is more likely-hood that Reformations following one another like Egyptian Plagues the succeeding ones should still devour what the preceding leave than that Men who have taken Sacrilege for the Service of God should endeavor to repair any part of that which is already Destroyed The Doctor having finished his Second Objection put an end to my defence by bringing on his Third without telling me whether he thought that what I said was true or if it were whether he judged it satisfactory or not But every Man minds his own business And it was not the Doctor 's to Absolve but to Accuse There is yet said the Doctor another * Dr. T ' s. 3d. Objection against me Objection against you which is that you are One who have forsaken our Church That which then immediately occurred to me for an Answer was the parallel of what I had often heard from Protestants concerning such as turn to them viz. That I was then the better judge having known the Doctrins of both Churches But I had forgotten that what is * When Church of England-men dispute with Dissenters Church Authority is of great force and no Scripture is of private Interpretation But When Catholics argue with them the case is alter'd and every Man is to be his own Judge reason in a Protestants mouth is stark naught in a Catholics The Doctor replyed That I went away Young from their Church and that if I had understood it better I should not have left it I know not what the Doctor accounts Young But it was not till I had gone through one of the best and most careful * Westminster-School Schools in England and spent above three years at the University and as many in Spain And I question not but the Doctors of the Church of England will allow that after all this I must needs have been come to the Age of judging for my self since I find that for this Liberty in others they do not require so much Education as mine amounted to And had it been so that I had embraced the Roman Catholic Religion without sufficient consideration the last fifteen or sixteen years which I have lived in it had been time enough for the Correction of an Error which my Interest and Necessities would have prompted me to have laid aside But I thank God I have not been the least shaken in my Faith ever since my Conversion either by what I have seen written or heard spoken by the most
Learned Protestants But on the contrary I have been so far from repenting that I turned so Young that the more I read or discoursed of these matters the more I discerned the Excellence of the Catholic Religion on the one hand and the blindness of so many of my fellow Creatures on the other and consequently I had no other causes for grief than first that my Conversion was no sooner and next that I had not yet been grateful enough that it was so soon The Doctor says that * Pag. 5. no Man who well understands their Church departs from it upon true Principles And I am much mistaken if there be not very many who know well enough what the Church of England Teaches and yet depart from her on no other principles than those which they learnt from her self viz. That the Church is to be followed no farther than she agrees with Scripture and every particular Man is left to judge how far she agrees with it It would be tedious and unnecessary to set down here all those Principles or Motives upon which I departed from the Church of England since I cannot so much pretend to extraordinary things as to deny but that they are the same which have led others from her both before and since and may be seen at large in many Books However if my Readers will give me leave I will lay before them some of those Points which began my doubts and prevail'd more particularly with me * Some Motives of my Conversion to the Catholic Faith. First I had been taught that the Church of Christ continued pure for the first Five Hundred Years after it's Institution and that from thence downwards several gross Errors and Corruptions had crept into it and that it had been infected with these Plagues for about a Thousand Years And that then Almighty â—od out of his Infinite Commiseration enlightned Martin Luther Zuinglius and other as I thought Pious Men so far as that they clearly discern'd these Corruptions Preach'd against them and by that means rescued a great number of Christians from that darkness which the Gates of Hell contrary to our Lords promise or some unaccountable Fatality had engaged them in And Lastly that I my self had been so happy as to be one of this number This was that Idea of Christianity which I then had For as to what they talk'd of a constant Succession of Protestants from the fifth Age down to our times I had never heard it from any Wise Man nor indeed can such an Imposture find place with any one who is so much an Historian as the common Discourse will make him Every body knows that the first Reformers when they left the Roman Church joyned with no other Society or Sect of Christians then in the World either in Communion or Doctrin which must have been done had this pretended Succession continued Their pretence was at that time to Reform the whole Church and not to seek out any True one which then had a Being and stood in no need of Reformation Nay they were so far from thinking it necessary to joyn with any former Church in order to the preserving a Succession that they did not unite with one another But parted their stock and each Adventurer set up for himself This then was the most Rational Account that I could give of my Faith viz. That our Church finding that all Christian Churches had been in Error for a Thousand Years forsook that Error and reformed it self according to the pattern of the first Five Hundred Years after Christ For to be of a Christian Church which never had any being from Christs time till this present I thought a most unreasonable thing Now none can write after a Copy without having that Copy which they pretend to Write by I mean it was impossible for the Church of England to Reform it self according to the first Five Hundred Years of Christianity without knowing what those Christians Taught and Practis'd And how could this possibly be done but by the Holy Fathers and other Writers of those times Wherefore I firmly believed as I am persuaded many Thousands do that these Writers were meer strangers to all those Doctrins which we had forsaken and consequently that no mention was made amongst them of Purgatory Prayer for the Dead Invocation of Saints Veneration of Holy Images and Relics the Sacrifice of the Mass the Reality of Christs Flesh in the Eucharist the Decisive Authority of the Church in Controversial matters the Spiritual Supremacy of St. Peter and his Successors with some other things of this nature I say I took it for granted that nothing of all this was to be found in those Primitive Records of the Christian Religion But when I looked into them I found it quite otherwise and that those things which hitherto I had accounted Novelties were as clearly set down in these Writings as any other Points of Christian Doctrin For instances to avoid length I will refer my Readers to a Book not long since Published Entituled Nubes Testium which hath Collections out of some of those Books which then fell into my hands and must weigh with Men of any tolerable moderation notwithstanding that which is or can be said against it Now what was there for me to be done in this condition I had taken it on trust that I was a Member of a Church which had Copied out the first Five Hundred Years but found my Error It was not unknown to me that several Quotations out of the Fathers were produced in the behalf of Protestant Opinions But-to me they all seemed wrested or at least capable of interpretations which were not repugnant to what the same Fathers more plainly and fully speak in other places for a contrary Doctrin In a word what appeared to me in favor of the Catholic Cause was clear full and incapable of any other meaning But that which offered it self in opposition to it was obscure short and interpretable in another sense and indeed for the most part evidently requiring another when joyned to it's antecedents and consequents Others said That the Fathers were Men and had Errors and that they contradicted one another and themselves to boot But this Plea was as little to my satisfaction as the former For this serves only to weaken the Authority of the Fathers and if good evinces nothing but that They are not to be relyed on And then how can the Church of England make out that she follows the first Five Hundred Years when she hath no other means of knowing what was believed in those times but by such Authors as are not to be trusted For what some People say of our being able to know by Scripture what was the Belief and Practice of these Primitive Christians is wholly absurd For we know not from Scripture at least according to the Principles of the Church of England whether the Christians of the first Five Hundred Years lived according to the Scripture
as for me I must be contented to sit down under the heaviest Reproaches on pain of being thought a Wrangler And even in our present Case Dr. Tenison is the Aggressor and yet Mr. M. loves to be engag'd How high are some men carry'd in their own Conceits They imagin that the whole World was made for them that as for the rest they may tread upon them at pleasure and if These turn again as they say a Worm will do the Others are hugely affronted God deliver us all from this Spirit which is so diametrically opposite to that of a Christian And here besides what I have already said to this purpose I will assure the Doctor That I am far from being a Lover of Controversie Had I Time Health and other Talents necessary for Writing I should much more willingly employ them on Books of Devotion and this because I am persuaded that with most men the Will stands in more need of being moved than the Understanding of being convinced at least I believe that when the First is done the Last will soon follow Such Conversions as I have been more intimately acquainted with have ever as far as I could perceive begun this way And agreeably hereunto our Savior generally lays the blame of Unbelief not on any Defect of the Understanding but on the Vices of the Will * John 3. 19. Light says he is come into the World and men loved Darkness rather than Light because their Deeds were evil And again John 5. 44. where particularly he notes Pride as a principal hindrance of Faith How can you believe who receive Honor one of another and the Honor which is from God only you seek not And forasmuch as concerns even our present Hesitations in point of Faith I question not but they all proceed from the same Root The Hardness of Transubstantiation or some other Mystery may be pretended but the Real Hindrance is somewhat else some foreseen Persecution or other Temporal Inconvenience the Displeasure of Friends the Censure of the World if not these yet the disagreeableness of Confession and doing Penance the difficulty of some Restitution or of breaking with some beloved Vice the enjoyn'd Celibacy of a leading sort of Men These things I say and some others of the like quality are in their turns the ordinary source of all our Repugnances against Religion I do not mean that men are generally hindred by such irregular Passions from professing what they believe tho' it may be feared that this also too often happens but that they are hindred by them from believing what they ought and what were it not for such Byasses they would Wherefore if the main I might say only Obstacle of true Faith be a perverseness of Will it follows that such Books as tend to the warming of the Affection are more probable means of Conversion than such as are directed for the enlightning of the Understanding Not but that Books of Controversie are useful too in their season and those who are qualified for this way of Writing do well in making us Partakers of their Labor and indeed the Proceedings of our Adversaries in a manner exact it but as for me I am led by Judgment and Inclination to give the preference to Treatises of another kind And therefore those who have taken in that Character which the Doctor is pleased to give of me in this place as if I loved Controversie are if it imports them to know it much deceived this being an Art no less contrary to my Liking than it is above my Capacity But forasmuch as concerns my present Task I cannot but promise my self that the Necessity that was put upon me will excuse the Undertaking and the Goodness of the Cause bring me through it The Doctor if I mistake him not threatens to leave me engag'd with a new Antagonist But why should he who thinks I do too much in taking notice of what himself writes imagin that another Pen is able to engage me He seems to think that I might have let Him alone without Disgrace and what then should oblige me to Combat his Second On the contrary it is my opinion that when such Calumnies are first vented somewhat is to be done to satisfie the Judicious but afterwards when Old Calumnies are defended by New the best Refutation of them is Contempt And therefore unless the Doctor 's Second come into the Field with better Weapons than his Principal hath done I shall leave him an Enemy worthy such a Champion viz. his own Shadow And here tho' I cannot but think it a little hard that the Doctor should begin the War and then leave me engag'd with fresh Adversaries unless my Revenues were as well able to hire Auxiliaries as his own yet I must acknowledge that his excuse for not Writing is so just that I wonder how he could find any for Writing One would think that two such * Above p. 17. sequ Parishes should find him work enough And certainly were it not for a singular Art of converting Cures into Sine-cures I should have heard as little from Dr. Tenison as he would have done from me without a Provocation Dr. Tenison as I am farther inform'd having said that Mr. P. accuses him of answering nothing to a certain Query that had been put to him viz. How the Church of England granting her self to be Fallible and for ought she knew in actual Error could be the Church built upon a * Matt. 16. 18. Rock c hath the following words It is much that I had nothing to say upon this Argument when Mr. Meredith may remember that upon the Objection as made by him I gave him this Answer to which he has not yet reply'd That our Church was no more Fallible than any other in the World That God's Providence would not suffer all to fail together That we had a certain Rule and sufficient means That we were as infallibly sure of the Necessaries of Faith as a man is of casting up a Sum right tho' by Misattention 't was possible to commit a mistake And that our Church could prove it had rightly computed This was said to him at the side of the Bed in the second Room about the close of our Talk. Now it is very possible that Dr. Tenison might be readier with an Answer to a Query at one time than at another No man generally speaking is always equally present to himself a Passion may sometimes interpose and darken the Understanding and this especially is not to be wondred at in One who has peculiar Motives to Indignation Besides he might live and learn and finding himself puzzl'd to day he might study the point better against to morrow for which reasons it is not impossible but the Doctor might have said nothing to his former Quaerist and yet afterwards say something to Me on the same Subject There is no great Miracle in all this But that which is truly to be admired is that
me in short concerning a Guide in Controversie viz. That a Man after using all Christian means and Pag. 18. the help of all Ministerial Guides possible must at last judge for himself and that this was not to run on his own head As also that their People could know the Voice of their Church it being in their own Language but not so readily the Voice of the Church of Rome it being in an unknown Tongue for the true Interpretation of which the unlearned depend upon the particular Priest that instructed them I say since the Doctor Publishes what he said to me on this subject he ought to have added what I replyed to him tho' likewise it were but very short for the Reasons already given My Talk was to this purpose viz. That if Men after the use of those Christian means and Ministerial Guides he spoke of were by Gods appointment to follow their own Understandings Those Laws must needs be unjust which punished them for doing so And consequently what could the English Penal Laws have to say for themselves which did not enquire whether Men had used Christian Means and Ministerial Guides or not but punished them for following their own Understandings altho' they should have used ever so many Christian means c. before-hand Neither do Men suffer by these Laws only for Doctrins relating to the Civil Government as perhaps the Doctor would insinuate by what * Pag. 24. follows but for Points meerly Religious such as are Transubstantiation Purgatory Invocation of Saints not going to a Protestant Church c. For all which Points they are punished and this to make the case yet harder by such Men as owning themselves Fallible must likewise own that those Opinions for which they punish may be Truths and Those which they would compel us to embrace Errors for ought they know This Subject is so plain and obvious in it's own Nature and there hath been so much said on it already that I shall only add one word by way of of a Recapitulation which is That on the one side we have the Church of England Teaching us to Judge for our selves in Religious Matters and on the other Hanging us for following her Doctrin If we are to be our own Judges why are we Condemn'd for it And if not why are we Taught to be so Most Religions have their Mysteries and therefore this may be allowed to the Protestants But for my part I can sooner admit that God is able to do more than I am able to understand in the Belief of Transubstantiation than that Men can at once have a just ground for the Approbation and Condemnation of the self-same Proceeding It being easier to dis-believe our Senses when our Creator Commands than to forego our Reason when we have no higher Motive for it than the Will of our Fellow-Creatures I must confess that my Discourse on this Subject at the Conference was not so large as it is here by reason of the shortness of those Interlocutory spaces that were allowed us by the Doctor which seemed to be designed by him not so much for our Speaking as for his own Breathing so that I was forced to cramp what I had to say into a few concise and general Propositions and to throw them out before the Doctor was aware of them Viz. That in case we were not bound by Almighty God to submit our Judgment to any others but presupposing the use of the Doctors Christian means were left to the Guidance of our own Understanding in matters of Faith we ought not to be hindred from or which is the same thing punished for Taking it for our Guide in such matters That the Penal Laws Punished us for so doing and therefore were unjust And the like Which Propositions tho' too brief perhaps for their being thoroughly Comprehended by the Rabble of our Hearers were yet sufficient to let the Doctor know what I meant and consequently for a larger Account of them than what we have from him pa. 24. Viz. Mr. M. took leave and just at the Door Muttered something about Penal Laws In which as the Reader will have found there is no Information either of the nature or of the occasion of that Discourse The matter being so obscurely express'd that a Protestant Gentleman of my acquaintance was so far deceived by the Doctors Terms that he imagined that I had risen up in a heat and threatned something as I went away And therefore for the future when Dr. Tenison shall tell us That he thinks it will give the greater satisfaction to tell the whole Truth That Truth is best Painted at full length and that he will let the World know the whole Truth so far as his Memory with all due helps will serve him as he doth pag. 45. 46 and 50. We will be so civil to him as not to understand him in a Literal Sense Dr. T. says in the place above cited that we are to have the help of all Ministerial Guides possible before we must Judge for our selves Now I suppose that by all Ministerial Guides possible the Doctor does not mean all sorts of Guides True or False First Because the Penal Laws hinder us from conversing with those of other Communions And Secondly Because our Saviour himself Commands us to * Matth. c. 7. v. 15. beware of false Prophets Wherefore I would fain know what mark the Doctor hath to distinguish such Ministerial Guides as may be Addressed to from such as may not If he say that we shall know these Guides by the purity of their Doctrin the only Mark commonly assigned by Protestants as was intimated above for That of the True Church Then it must follow that I must first Judge what Doctrin is Pure before I can know what Guides to have recourse to and consequently I must Judge for my self in the particular * Viz. In the Interpretation of the Scripture Doctrins of Christianity before I use the help of these Ministerial Guides Which according to the Doctor is not to be done The Circle in other Terms and more concisely is thus We cannot know what Doctrin is Pure without Guides And we cannot know what Guides to consult without first knowing what Doctrin is Pure If he shall Name Succession Universality or any thing else for the mark of these Guides then we will consider whether That which is assigned belong to the Church of England or not The Doctor seems to say in the close of his * Pag. 18. Answer which as the Reader will perceive was nothing less than one of his usual Digressions from the Point in hand That their People knew the Voice of their Church and needed not to depend upon the Learning of any Particular Priest for it If so How could the Doctor blame this Apprentice as he doth in his 55th Page for not coming to him with his doubts Would he have him repair to a particular Priest for Instruction whilest he Heard