we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
Scriptures and declare in their writinges that by them they are to be confuted for examples sake of a great number I will alleage a fewe and he alleageth Hilarius Basilius Magnus Chrysostome Augustine Leo the first Bishop of Rome and the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt And so concludeth saying Thus I haue declared by ensample and authoritie of these fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the Scripture If onely by the scriptures See cap. 9. par 2. pag. Ar. 52. so much the better you doe like of her and that in this Chapter nothing misliketh me Now let vs see what he confesseth of the auncient Monkes also The Church of God saith he hath alwayes had Scholes or Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning for the first colledges of Monkes in solitarie places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were afterward as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appeareth by Chrisostom in his booke de Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the Church as he him selfe was afterward Also in the Bishops house was a Colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great vniuersitie of learned men Whether S. Chrysostome S. Basill and those other auncient Monkes both in our owne and also in other countreys were nothing else but studentes it is not the question of this place See cap. 10. dem 25. pag. but onely doe I note here that he confesseth them to haue bene of the Church of God Then as concerning the times first of persecution afterward of peace vnder the Emperours both heathen and Christian he vttereth his confession of the true Church in these wordes Our assemblies were kept in secret places Ar. 51.52 long time after Christes ascension in most Countries that were subiect to the Romane Empire and when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and Seruice Also necessarie furniture for the seruice of God was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors that were of our Church before the reuelation of Antichrist that is as before you heard his meaning before the time of Bonifacius the thirde Pur. 342. Likewise in an other place he confesseth both those Caues and Vaultes vnder the earth that the olde Christian Bishops were content to serue in before the time of Constantine and also those princely buildinges that by Constantine and other Christian Princes were first set vp for the publike exercise of Christian Religion To which times belongeth also that wherein he confesseth the conuersion of Nations by the true Church saying It did not onely require but also subdue all Nations to the obedience of the faith Ar. 97. so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperours and before Finally he confesseth the Emperours yet more expressely and more particularly saying Ar. 33. It is an easie matter to name you the Emperours and princes which both offered to the ministers of iustice in the right of our Church and also mainteined our faith and congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the great Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers others And to signifie that he meaneth these Emperours to haue bene such as he would wish for he addeth of the latter Emperours and saith I passe ouer as to well knowen many of the Grecian Emperours Likewise I passe ouer Charles the great I will not rehearse those later Germane Princes that c. For although these and such like defended some part of the trueth which we holde against you yet least you should obiect it was but in one or two poyntes I passe them ouer with silence And so much for the true Church in the first 600. yeares ¶ The third Chapter That he confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainely with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the But not his Caluinicall Church true Church may erre and also hath erred AFter all this so smoothly by him confessed of the true Church and sometime also of the long continuing thereof in incorruption if any man maruell to heare nowe that yet withall he holdeth the same true Church at the same time to haue bene corrupted and to haue erred let him sée here in the eleuenth Chapter his manifolde manifest contradictions he will quickly leaue his marueiling the matter he shal perceiue is not so straunge in this man but very vsuall common to contrarie him selfe as it is also no rare thing in his master Caluine and the other heretical writers of our time But here in the meane while be it disagréeing or be it agréeing with that which he hath confessed already Infra ca. 11. cōtradict 4. I will in this present Chapter laye forth his words first generally that the true Church may erre and afterwarde of the particuler errors common to the true Church then and to our Church now The first part That the true Church may erre Ar. 86 Therefore that the true Church may erre thus he saith The true and onely Church of Christ can neuer be voyde of God his spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some things And a litle after Wherefore the whole Churche militant consisting of men which are all lyars may erre all together Ar. 88. Agayne The true and onely Church of God as it is declared before hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things And there beneath And if it may erre and be deceiued it selfe what man is he that neede to doubt whether it may induce any error among the people In so much that he is bolde to say in an other place Pur. 367 368. Of an hundred argumentes that S. Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians this insultation that their heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church was one of the feeblest which tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of truth that is in it but by their confession and graunt In so much agayne that a few lines after he saith to D. Allen or rather to S. Augustine if it be truely scanned In deede they were but sory whelpes that could not say baffe to the bleating of such a calfe as you are Modestly which thinke that such a foolish cauill can cary credite with them that haue any cromme of brayne in their heades to wit The Church prayeth so therefore it is true Ar. 83.84 Moreouer in an other If you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that Article I beleeue the Catholike Church that is I beleeue whatsoeuer the Church doth allow to be true I denie that it is
Religion whiche it first receaued neque heresis vlla illic sumpsit exordium and that no heresie did spring there But to our matter that forwardnes in the Latine Churche he confesseth I thinke in respect of Tertullian whose manifest testimonies he coulde not otherwise shift him of and therefore of him somewhere he saith thus I denie that any of the auncient Fathers in Christ his time or Scholars to his Apostles Pu. 435. or within one or two hundreth yeares after Christ except one that had it of Montanus the heretike as he had more thinges besides in any one worde mainteined your cause for Purgatorie or Prayers for the deade Mary Montanus of whom Tertullian receaued his heresie had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes Againe I will not denie but you haue much drosse and dragges of the later sorte of Doctors Pur. 247. and the later the fuller of drosse But bring me any worde out of any that did write within one .100 yeares after Christ that alloweth prayer or almes for the dead Where as we sée by the later sort of Doctors he sheweth him self to meane such as were without one .100 yeares after Christ But of that one .100 yeares also together with Tertullian and the Fathers afore him vp vnto Christ we shall haue occasion to say more anone in our third Article Hauing therefore thus shewed in this first Article howe he chargeth the true confessed Fathers of the true confessed Church with this error as which he summeth vp together in an other place Pur. 458. and saith The error was continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Let vs now sée how he chargeth the same whole true Churche for some time with the same and that the more briefely because we haue nowe so often hard him say of so many times that it was the common error of that time and that time ij What he saieth of the whole Church in some of those times Pur. 382. Thus he saith in one place If we be asked how we can shifte our selues against the generall practise of Gods Churche for all popish assertions and namely this of praying for the dead We answere that we denye the practise to be generall because wee finde it Is nothing generall but that vvhich you find in them not in the most auncient writers that liued within an hundreth yeares and more after the time of Christ But what say you to the later practise which for places then was generall though for times you count it particular And to the particular practise of later times we answere that it is not sufficient to controll the auncient doctrine and primer practise Againe in an other place 370. The same order that was before Epiphanius and error that was in Epiphanius time doe all the later Liturgies followe and therefore saye I all the later Byshoppes and Priestes and people because they vsed those Liturgies making memorie and prayers for all them that are departed in the faith What saye you then to that practise so generall In the memorie of all departed they followe the olde order in praying for all they followe the later error which had chaunged the sacrifice of thankes geuing into the sacrifice of prayer But more of the olde Liturgies nowe in the thirde Article which must be of the originall that the Fathers referred this their practise vnto iij. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And here first for perspicuitie I remember to the Reader what S. Augustine saith of fasting August â—pist 86. Casul In the Scriptures of the new Testament Video praeceptum esse Ieiunium I see that fasting is commaunded But what dayes we must keepe fast Non inuenio in illis literis euidenter praeceptum I finde not in those scriptures euidently commaunded And yet the fast of fortie dayes before Easter and some others both he many moe of the Fathers doe say to be Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— commended vnto vs in the Scripture of the new Testament but specially that it coÌ„meth expresly vnto vs of the Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— Apostles tradition without Scripture The like they say of prayer for the dead that it is expresly found in the holy Scripture But the certaine times that it is solemnely practised as vpon the burial day the third seuenth thirteth fourteth yeares day and also in a certaine speciall prayer of the holy Masse are they say eyther all or some of them of the Apostles plaine TraditioÌ„ though also commaunded to vs out of Scripture So say the Fathers and for their so saying let vs now sée what this maÌ„ saith of them And to omit because it requireth a longer treatie that he maketh in effect no lesse then heretiks of S. Augustine with others Infr ca. â— Pur. 214 for auouching sacrifice for the dead out of the booke of Maccabées as out of Canonical scripture Gregorie Bernard Bede whoÌ„ D. Allen alleageth vpon the place of Mathew 12 are of opinion Pur. 19. â— Gre. 4.19 Ber. Ser. in Cant Bed in Mar. 3. saith Fulke that sinnes not remitted in this world may be remitted in the world to come But howe happeneth it that Chrysostome and Ieronym which both interpreted that place coulde gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed Prayer for the deade the reason must needes be because the error of Purgatorie growing so much the stronger as it were nearer to the full reuelation of Antichrist Gregorie and Bede sought not the true meaning of Christ in this Scripture but the confirmation of their plausible error Then S. Chrysostome bylike will please him Pur. 251.247 Chris ho. â—4 in 1. cor 15. Such pitie may bring you into the pit of hell Pur. 237. but heare I pray you out of an other place I denie not but that Chrysostome doth alleage this example of Iob sacrificing for his children Cap. 1. for prayers to profite the dead What shall we say Those good men in that declining state of the Church to superstition being destitute of the cleare testimonies of Scripture to maintaine those plausible errors are driuen to such simple shiftes to vphold them as it is great pittie to see Againe But where learned Chrysostome that prayers and almes had any comfort in them for the dead surely he alleageth Scripture but he applieth it madly and yet he often applieth it to the same purpose Pur. 226. Amb. de obit Theod. Alas good man Likewise Ambrose commendeth Honorius the young Emperour for solemnising the funerals of Theodosius his father by the space of .40 dayes after the example of Ioseph Genesis .50 such superstition crept into the Churche first by emulation of the Paganes and after seeking for colourable confirmation in the examples of the
comming were in hell That Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower partes That only Martyrs and perfect men are priuileged of God to goe to Paradise That all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be payed Then for prayers a litle after And therefore sayth he it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the grounde of this opinion not content with the oblations for the dead whiche the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles Oblations of thanks giuing also are heathenish and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead whereof Tertullian maketh mention And that you may not doubt whether he charge vs alone or also the auncient Fathers with all this goe to his wordes alleaged out of the same place in this Chapter by me afore beginning thus And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that if the Gentils or Heretiks had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse c. After all this he concludeth in the ende saying Wherfore it is left that Montanus and his felowes were the first that taught prayers for the dead to be profitable And agayne Therfore Aërius was not the first that held our opinion but Mōtanus before him was the first that held your opinion throughly Mary you haue played the man in déede and performed I trow euery iote of the vaunting promise that you made a litle before when you said Pur. 410. That we can not reade out of the word of God we shal heare of Purgatorie among the Paganes Carpocratians Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon that is as your owne mouth hath here confessed the Church at the farthest by S. Augustines time hath pacht vp her Purgatorie and sacrifices for the dead as by and by I shall declare Thus I haue shewed how he noteth the true Church for so many particular errors of ours as about Ceremonies about the Crosse about the name of Sacrifice about Fastingdayes and abstinence from certaine meates about Sole life of the Cleargie and vowe of virginitie about merite of the same of abstinence about inuocation of Saints and worshipping of their Relikes about Purgatory and reliefe of the soules in Purgatory and that they were so much addicted therevnto that they counted the contraries to be Heresies and béeing opposite to the holy Scriptures and Traditions of the Apostles vj. As touching the Popes primacie To all these errors I will yet adde one more which he maketh so much of that he ascribeth the Apostasie of the Church by him imagined to the same Which for all that I will here shew to be imputed by him also to the true Church that in the second Chapter we heard him to confesse It consisteth in the matter of the Popes Superioritie To begin therfore with him an high come downward along the true Church vntil it And yet no mā then in the vvorlde that vvent out frō the Pope Ar. 47. Ar. 36. vanished quite away forsooth vpon a soden by force of a summe of mony giuen taken of Bonifacius the third and Phocas the Emperour thus he hath first of Pope Victor Victor went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches And againe Victor Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lord 200. passed the boundes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Afterwarde he noteth Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome for the like in S. Cyprians time for medling with Afrike Asia and Spaine Furthermore Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Bishops of Rome all in a row chalenged prerogatiue ouer the Bishops in Aphrica by forging of a false Canon of the Nicene Councell And againe Celestinus Bishop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians And there in the end By these examples it is plaine that the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke or as he spoke there a litle before The Popes authoritie first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastatius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus And in an other place of some of them againe Pur. 255. The Nicen Councell the first and the best was corrupted with counterfected Canons by the Bishops of Rome to maintaine their vsurped authoritie in the dayes of S. Augustine And in the nexte Chapter we shall heare him call the Churche in Innocentius his time Pur. 148. the companie which hath the Pope for their head Item the Pope and al them that take his part Finally to come to S. Gregories time where D. Allen saith thus So if thou would know whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregorie the great against the Soueraigntie of the See of Rome Pur. 305.310.194 was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shalt finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all Prouinces Christianed throughout the world both by excommunication of Bishops that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreeme prouinces by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other Nations sent either to conuert them to the Faith or to gouerne them in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction c. He in his answer is driuen to say to this The practise of Gregorie although it were much more modest then of his Successors yet can it not be excused but it was contrarie to his doctrine whereby he reproueth an other to wit the Bishop of Constantinople in that he was not altogether cleare him selfe As though either he or any his successor vsed the stile of vniuersall Bishop and not all the cleane contrarie Seruus seruorum Dei Seruaunt to Gods seruauntes All this I haue so copiously alleaged out of him though not so copiously as I might for these thrée purposes First that the Reader might clearely sée that in so many pointes he confesseth him selfe and his fellow protestantes to dissent from them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche Secondly that againe he confesseth vs in the same points to agrée with the same Thirdly therefore and especially that he hath not for these pointes and so neyther for such as depende of these iust cause to denie vs the true Churche Note vvell vvhosoeuer seeke the Churche which he so graunteth to them that holde the same pointes and that vpon the same groundes and as earnestly or if he will euen as obstinately as we doe nowe condemning their aduersaries therein of heresie and so consequently of separation from the true Churche howsoeuer them selues rather are charged by him to haue receiued of older heretikes their opinions but that contrariwyse wée are for so muche to bée more excused then they as wée
Iewel where he had Pur. 145.148 that the Church of God might erre Behold I pray you the confidence of this man in his answere therevnto Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath so substantially and learnedly defended that For many Pâ—testants neeâ— no other boâ— to become Câ—â—tholikes he neede not to haue any other man to answere for him Therfore if it were not to choke M. Allen in his owne coller I would trauell no further in this question How then doth he strangle the man The Church you say can not erre and that companie is the Church which hath the Pope for their head Very true both the one and the other If therfore it can be proueâ— that the Pope and all they that take his parte haue erred it is sufficiently shewed that the Churche maye erre Say then S. Augustine was in this error as you will not denie that the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ was to be ministred to Infants But of the same opinion he affirmeth that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church in his time was Therfore the Pope and all the Church did erre Reade Augustine contra Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. Whether he saith of Innocentius Qui denique paruulos definiuit nisi manduc auerinâ— carnem filij hominis vitam prorsus habere non posse Which hath defined that Infantes except they eate the flesh of the sonne of man can haue no life at all in them And by eating the flesh of the sonne of man he meaneth eating the sacrament of his flesh and bloud as it is euident to them that will bestow the reading of Augustines discourse in that place Pur. 309. Againe in an other place And by the waye note here one practise of a notable error in Augustines time that the Sacrament of the Lords supper was giuen to children which wist not what it ment contrarie to the worde of God who requireth men to examine them selues before they receiue it Wherfore if any other practise were in his time or allowed by him contrarie to Gods worde we are no more bound vnto it then vnto this which euen the Papistes them selues Or els you can not â—eâ—l will confesse to be erroneous Yea he is not afrayde to preferre the very Pelagians in this poynt before all Gods Church of that time Pur. 390. saying In S. Augustines dayes of whose time the historie of the Church is By vvhat Historiographaâ— largely set foorth vnto vs who preached or writ agaynst that error which he and Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church as he confessed did hold that Infants must receiue the holy Communion or els they should be damned who preached against this error except perhaps the Pelagians that were horrible heretikes Agayne Why was it reuealed to the Pelagians Pur. 422. that Infantes might be saued without the participation of the sacrament of Christes body and bloud rather then vnto S. Austine Innocentius Bishop of Rome and as Augustine saith and the Catholike Fathers of that time which thought it was as necessarie for them to receiue the Communion as to be baptized The reuealing of his ignorant sawcines herein I reserue to the sixt Chapter Here I do no more but note what errors he layeth to the true Churches charge which bene these that you haue heard ¶ The fifte Chapter What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors THus haue we heard of him that the true Church may remayne the true Church although it erre and that it hath erred in many of the same articles wherein we do nowe erre and moreouer in many other articles beside wherein we do not erre wherof it followeth playnly that neither our erring nor these our errors no nor any other our errors are alone sufficient for him to depriue vs of the true Church And now not béeing able to depriue vs of the true Church if any man do yet thinke that for all that he is not constrayned to graunt to vs the true Church let the same man in this Chapter consider what reason he yéeldeth why our Fathers notwithstanding their foresaid errors had the true Church and he shal most euidently perceiue that by the same reason we notwithstanding our errors haue likewise the true Church He nameth somewhere Tertullian Cyprian Origen Ar. 61. Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Hieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. and saith of them as followeth But for as much as they holde the foundation that is Christ though they haue diuers errors and superstitions they were doubtles the members of the true Church of Christ Pur. 336 In an other place hauing said that in S. Augustines time they vsed vnprofitable prayers for the dead and many other superstitions he addeth neither doth it folow that al that taught or beleeued those errors so long as they buylded vppon Christ the onely foundation haue perished Againe Ar. 74. We take not vpon vs to medle with God his iudgementes whom he condemneth or for what causes further then the worde of God teacheth vs namely that as many as haue not beleeued in the only sonne of God are condemned for their vnbeliefe other secret causes we remit to his secret counsel and knowledge Pur. 34â— In so much that where D. Allen presseth this newe founde Cleargie in our countrey for vsurping those Colledges other ecclesiastical prouisions against the willes of the first founders who meant them to such as should pray for their soules and not to suche as should preach agaynst the same he answereth of them likewise saith Whether any meant to mainteine preaching agaynst Masse or prayers for their owne soules as we know not whether they did or no so we count it not materiall c. and whether the buylders of such places be saued or damned it perteyneth not to vs to iudge or to enquire Agayne where D. Allen had shewed by example of S. Augustine of his mother and of others that they offered prayers and the sacrifice of the Altar for the dead Pur. 325 328. and therevpon concludeth saying Thus loe all these Fathers taughte thus they practised thus they liued thus they dyed none was saued then but in this fayth let no manne looke to be saued in any other nowe Nay saith Fulke not so For althogh they were in that time infected with some errors yet was the faith of their saluation in the only foundation Iesus Christ Pur. 238. c. in the only mercy of God Againe We confesse that in Chrysostomes dayes the onely foundation Iesus Christe was taught and the article of iustification by the only mercy of God was preached but yet we affirme that muche straw wood and other impure matter was buylded vpon the foundation whiche was a preparatiue to the kingdome of Antichrist which was not long after to be reuealed Pur. 287. And in an other place Cyprians
pag. they held it not and therefore both to be alike iustified or both alike condemned as I shall haue a place againe in the .9 Chapter to declare further when I answere to all that he alleageth vp and downe to proue that wée agrée not throughly with the Fathers in substance of doctrine ¶ The sixt Chapter An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherwith he hath charged the Church of the first .600 yeares and afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times HItherto I haue so procéeded in this my defence of our Churche that now is as supposing that both it the auncient Church before it hath erred in manner as he chargeth it and declaring that he must confesse it to be the true Church still notwithstanding that it erreth now as he confesseth it to haue bene the true Churche afore notwithstanding that it erred in many of the same articles and also in sundry others then But now if I can further defend it that for all his accusations yet it hath not euer erred neither in those former nor in these later ages Note vvel you that seeke for the Church then will the curable Reader I hope much more acknowledge that it is most worthely to be sought vnto and obeyed and their Antisynagogue to be forsaken and abhorred and that much more againe if moreouer I defend it that also it can not erre For then séeing they confesse that theirs may erre it will follow therof that theirs is not the true Churche But that point I wil reserue to the .8 and .9 Chapter where I will answere the Scriptures and fathers that he any where alleageth to proue that the true Church may erre here I will but maintaine that it hath not erred Fulkes zeale in answering for Caluine and others being in deede of his Church And this to doe I am moued specially by the truth of the matter it selfe but secondarily also by example of this same Fulke who though he say that their Church may erre yet can not his zeale abide to heare that it doth erre or rather he saith no more but that the true Church may erre so as where he may séeme to speake of a true Church distinct from their Church now to wit of the Fathers Church But else when he speaketh expressely of their owne Church that now is as he holdeth alwayes earnestly that it doth not erre so he neuer saith so much plainely as that it may erre yea sometimes also in his zeale he breaketh out against the Fathers them selues at once and against vs as where D. Allen said Pur. 369.371 One of them was so impudent to say in an open booke that the Liturgies of the Fathers made all against the Catholiks And a litle after If their Seruice like you so well or at least better then S. Gregories Masse you might with more honestie haue coped for any one of them then haue forged a new one of your owne which in deede is directly repugnant to all other rites in the Christian world To this I answere saith Fulke We haue with more honestie reformed our Liturgie according to the word of God example of the oldest Church then Gregorie Basill Chrysostome if they were theirs or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leauing the ancient Liturgies that were vsed in the Churche before their time because they did not sufficiently expresse their errors superstitiō forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God And in another place first on the one side he accuseth S. Ambrose the Church afore in his time Pur. 226. saying Such superstitions crept into the Church by emulation of the Paganes Then on the other side of his owne he saith For auoiding of all which inconueniences that haue risen and may rise The vvise Church of Geneua by ceremonies practised at burialls the Churche of Geneua very wisely godly vseth no more ceremonies in burying their dead then are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the corps Pur. 412. Againe where D. Allen saith They be as saucie with Gods Churche Councells and chiefe gouernours as we be with the Iackestrawes of Geneua See here I pray you the zeale of the man You confesse hereby your selfe to be a saucie Iacke And he addeth that the world can testifie that there is passing grauitie and modestie in the lightest persons of all that Churche Againe where D. Allen saith Pur. 341. If all Ecclesiasticall foundations should returne to the founders againe because their willes are not fulfilled that then perhaps this wiued newe Cleargie might be driuen to serue in a reformed French barne his zeale is so great that he can not hold but You iest saith he like a scornfull caitife of those holy assemblees of Gods childrē in Fraunce Pur. 203.205 Infra ca. 12. num So likewise by name for Caluin other his masters let vs a litle behold his impacience D. Allen toucheth Caluine for denying all communion betwéene Christes members that are in this life and in the next For this Fulke saith vnto him You haue a pleasure to spue out your pestilent poyson against that noble light of Gods Church M. Caluine Againe where he noteth his strange doctrine about Christes discending into hell Fulke answereth Pur. 61.63 Infra ca. 1 pag. He vttereth his spite against Caluine he spitteth out agaynst him moste impudent slaunders raylings and lyes not satisfying him selfe with the voyce of a man he hath borowed the tong of the diuell him selfe Whose doctrine God him selfe the Angels and all the worlde doth know and testifie to be directly contrary to these slaunders And straight after But because he woulde not be thought to haue spued out all his poyson agaynst Caluine he goulpeth vp another bowlefull of rayling slaundering against our Bishops who haue not onely suffered but also commended Caluines bookes to be read and studied of the simple Curates affirming that they do priuily set forth by books that which they dare not openly preach All this and more of like sorte he hath there and yet saith in the very same place that he doth somewhat moderate his corrupt affections Also in an other place Pur. 45. Without all shame or shew of truth most impudently he faineth a contrarietie betwene Melancthon and Caluine O brasen face and yron forehead With litle zeale he saith for another Pur. 147.89 Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath substantially and learnedly defended Againe As for that reuerend father M. Iewel whom this arrogant Louanist calleth the English bragger how well he hath answered his chalenge his owne learned labors do more clearly testifie vnto the world then that it can be blemished by this sycophantes brainlesse babling In déede he hath so well quitted him selfe that the very reading of his answere hath turned many earnest Protestantes into earnest Catholikes as both by the numbers
And the same answere take you to that you obiect to vs in like sort againe in one of the places aboue noted saying Of the Colliridianes you learned to make Images of the virgin Mary and worship them and her with offering of candles c. as they did of cakes c. Epiph. li. 3. Haer. 79. These Collyridianes heresie was this that certayne women at a certaine solemne time of the yere certaine dayes together did decke a square table and vpon it Offerebant panem c. They did offer a cake in the name of Mary as if Mary were eyther a God or a Priest and women her ministers to sacrifice for her So saith Epiphanius confuting thē at large and shewing that women could neuer sacrifice and that none but one is to be adored as God though our Lady be moste honorable Sit in honore Maria Pater filius Spiritus sanctus adoretur Reuera sanctum erat corpus Mariae non tamen Deus My purpose is here but to answere else if any man desire testimonies for our Images for our vse aboue them he may reade D. Saunders booke and many other of that matter It is inough for me here that Fulke him selfe hath acknowledged Supra ca. 3. pag. Tertullian to hearse it as a thing then vndoubted that our crossing of our selues which is a making of Imagesa nd a great religion to the same commeth vnto vs from the Apostles by tradition And because we are thus come from Images to the Sainctes let vs heare what more you haue against the Fathers and vs in that behalfe ij Of Inuocation of Sainctes and worshipping of their Reliques You remember since the thirde Chapter that by your owne report the true Church counted Vigilantius an heretike for denying the Inuocation of Saintes and the worshipping of their Reliques of which and of their Images againe Supra pag the case is all one But now you will proue that the Churches opinion rather was heresie for thus you say to vs for that matter Ar. 21. Of the Ossenes you receiued the superstition of Reliques for they vsed to take the spittle and other filth from the bodyes of Marthys and Marthana which were of the seede of Elxai that is In peregrinatione religion ergo great Sainctes with them and vsed them to cure diseases as Erasmus witnesseth at Caunterbury were kept the clowtes that Thomas Becket did occupie to wipe of his sweat to blow his nose on which were kissed as holy Reliques and thought also to be holsome for sicke folkes Epiph. li. 1. Tom. 1. Haer. 19. This againe maketh as much against our Reliques as the Valentinians Crosse against our Crosses and the Carpocratians Images against our Images Epiphanius telleth that this Elxai was in Traianus time a great master of that sect and that Marthys his kinswoman and Marthana his sister In the Ossenes countrey were adored in their life time as Gods Pro dijs adorabantur c. Because they were of the said Elxai his stocke quarum etiam sputa c. which womens spittle also and other filthes of their bodies the foresaide heretikes in that countrey tooke to them in auxilium videlicet morborum as to cure diseases nihil tamen efficiebant but yet without any effect at all As for Erasmus he knoweth nowe if he did not afore what it is to haue Religion in dirision and you may remember from whose body were caried to the sicke Sudaria vel Semicinctia Act. 19. and their diseases and euill sprites went awaye therewith Open your mouth also against those Napkins and call them likewise Clowtes for sweat and for the nose Or rather doe you applie them with good counsaile to your disease also Chris To. ◠De vita Bab contra Gentiles as S. Chrysostome applieth them and the Reliques of the Martyr Babylas together vnto the Paganes declaring thereby most excellently that Christ must néedes be God séeing he coulde geue such passing power to the clothes and bones of his seruaunt Ar. 22. You say moreouer to vs Of the Cayanes you learned to call vpon Angels Epiph. li. 1. To. 3. haere 38. Those heretikes worshipped Cain Iudas such like litle estéemed Abel such others yea and some of them also Christ him selfe They said also that none could be saued vntill they had gone through all sinnes And therfore committed all abhominations referred them to this Angel that Angel with this inuocation O tu Angele vtor tuo opere O tu potestas ago tuā actionem O thou such an Angell I worke now thy worke O thou such a power I now do thy actiō And this with them was called perfecta cognitio Epip Haer. 26. 21. 27. euen doctorship it selfe They agréed in this with the Simoniani Gnostici and Carpocratite who in their beastlines directed the like most horrible inuocations to God him selfe whom they termed Patrem vniuersorum Which is as substantiall an argument against all inuocation of God as the other is against the inuocation of Angells Simon Magus was you know in the Apostles time He inuented many heauens and many names of Angells placing these in this heauen and those in that heauen with sundrie sacrifices for men to offer by them that they might so bée brought at length to the Father of all And that none might otherwise be saued Epip Haer. 21. except he learned hunc mysticum ductum this mysticall passage and howe to offer suche Sacrifices by those Angels to the Father of all Against these fables it is that S. Paule instructeth the Ephesians and Colossians in those two Epistles so like in wordes also Colos 2. that no man deceyue them with those inuocations of Angelles Religion non tenens caput not holding the heade Iesus Christ But otherwise holding hym for the heade that wée are brought to the Father by the holye Angells as by Christes ministers Hebr. 1. who séeth not in the Scriptures in infinite places And so doth the Churche make all her petitions all through Christ our Lorde Per Christum dominum nostrum to none shée commendeth her otherwyse neyther in heauen nor in earth so doe we all praye and desyre to be prayed for one of another Apoc. 1. Apo. 4. v. 5 5. ver 6. with Heb. 1 ver 14. Apo. 1. ver 16.20 Heb. 3. ver 1. Apo. 19.22 Apoc. 3. and so prayed S. Iohn saying Grace and peace to you from God the Trinitie and from the seuen Spirites that are before his throne and from Iesus Christ according to his humanitie putting Christ in the last place that he myght so more hansomely adde the rest which he had to saye there of him And this in that verye booke out of which the Protestantes abuse two places against the worshipping of Angells forgetting also where in the same booke God doth promyse to make the obstinate Iewes to come and to adore before the feete of one Angell Et
of those fathers concerning the force of Baptisme séeth not that they geue to such a childe remission of sinnes and therefore also liuerie from death therefore againe life euerlasting the kingdome of God Or let any man bring me one place of those Doctors speaking to this case of a child I say baptized but not communicated holding the contrarie For betwéen them the Pelagians that was not the case nor the question as I haue shewed but they brought in the Eucharist onely to proue that Baptisme is necessarie to the euerlasting life of children All which by this one place of S. Augustines will be euident euen for your owne purpose also it is plainer then the two places that your selfe alleage Augu. De pec mer. rem li. 1. ca. 20. If a child saith Augustine hauing receaued baptisme depart out of this life soluto reatu cui originaliter erat obnaxius c. Seeing the guilt is loosed to the which he was bond by birth he shal be perfite in that light which with the presence of the Creator doth lighten such as are iustified Peccata enim sola separant inter Deū homines for nothing but sinnes maketh separation betwene God and men and sinnes are loosed by the grace of Christ Then a litle after of the Pelagiās he saith They would geue to children vnbaptised saluation and life euerlasting for cause of their innocencie but shutte them from the kingdome of heauen because they are not Baptized For they haue forsooth a starting a lurking hole because our Lord said not If one be not regenerate of water and the spirit non habebit vitam he shall not haue life but he said non intrabit in Regnum Dei he shall not enter into the kingdome of God Nam si illud dixisset for if he had said that quoth they it had bene so playne that no doubt could haue risen therof How then doth S. Augustine ioyne issue with them herevpon Auferatur ergo iam dubitatio c. Say you so Now then away with doubting let vs heare our Lord not the suspitions coniectures of mortal men Why haue you a plaine word of our Lordes owne mouth for the necessitie of Baptisme also to life euerlasting Dominū audiamus inquam non quidem hoc de Sacramento lanacri dicentem Let vs heare our Lorde I say I graunt he speaketh it not of the Sacracrament of Baptisme sed de Sacramento sanctae c. but of the Sacrament of his holy table quo nemo rite nisi c. And yet neuerthelesse it serueth well to our question of Baptisme because no man commeth lawfully to that table vnlesse he be Baptized Then he bringeth forth the place Except yee eate c. you shall not haue life in you And so he triumpheth saying What seeke we further what can they answere to this if they will not be obstinate By and by he declareth though it were said of baptisme Qui non renatus fuerit He that is not regenerate and here it is not saide likewise He that doth not eate but If you doe not eate as though he spoke to men of vnderstandyng and not to Infantes yet that this place must needes pertaine also to Infantes And so it is euident that although he vnderstande the place of the Sacrament and of Infantes yet he bringeth it not to proue the necessitie of that Sacrament to Infantes but the necessitie of Baptisme to Infantes Marie perceiuing that he might be mistaken of his Reader he doth commonly though it néeded not against the Pelagians insinuate most vigilantly by the waye that in Baptisme it selfe they receyue also the other Sacrament not sacramentally but spiritually that is Augu◠pec m◠3. cap. the effect of the other Sacrament Quoniam nihil agitur aliud cum paruuli baptizantur nisi vt incorporentur Ecclesiae id est Christi Corpori membrisue socientur Because when Infantes are Baptized it is for no other cause but that they maye bee incorporated to the Churche that is to saye ioyned to the bodye and members of Christ See D◠len d◠cha ◠31. pa◠It is so therefore with children by Baptisme as it is with older people by an earnest desyre to the Eucharist for as these haue Votum explicitum an expresse desyre to it so they haue Votum implicitum a close desyre to it and that serueth them both to obtayne the effecte thereof though not in so great measure as if they receyued it also sacramently Neuerthelesse there may be iust causes to keepe it from children generally as there are iuste causes to keepe it sometyme yea at Easter also from some of the older sorte But if antiquitie dyd not counte it necessarye for chyldren at least wyse they gaue it you wyll saye to children and that is contrary to Probet semet ipsum homo 1. Co◠let a man examyne hym selfe before he receyue it Why syr is there anye feare least chyldren that are Baptized come to it vnworthyly that is beyng in mortall synne hath any adultus by penance a better warrant to presume vnto it then a childe by Baptisme Knowe you not howe S. Augustine and the whole Church holdeth that in Baptisme a childe repenteth and beléeueth by others euē so he there also examineth himselfe by others As other repenting and other beléeuing so likewise other examining is not necessarie for a child though for so great a sacrament it be more conuenient And so both the Churche now doth well not to Communicate children they also afore did not ill who did Communicate them who yet were not so many as Fulke doth make them We heard erewhile what the Tridentine Fathers said Falsification by adding Aliquando in quibusdam locis that maner was sometime in some places The third part Concerning the errors that he laieth to the Church of later times and not of old And thus much of the second sorte of errors laid by you to the auncient true Church and not also to the Churche of these later times which you take not to be the true Church Now therefore as it followeth let vs heare and examine the third last sorte of errors such as you lay to this Church of later times and not also to the primitiue Church as you call it meaning the first .600 yeares Which errors wil be so few so light in respect of those which he hath already charged the true Church withall specialy when they are duely scanned Note you that vvould the true Church that it may be both a sure confirmation to the Catholikes and a iust motiue to all others to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering that it is no lesse yea much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie as in déede also of good reason it must so be because more time hath geuen to the Holy Ghost and stil doth geue more occasions to define and declare many pointes that were
it is a case that may trouble a mans conscience that would beleeue your Church and if he haue any wit restrayne him for euer coÌ„ming into your Church If you can not vntye this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze c. So insoluble forsooth are your argumentes agaynst the Church of God iij. Touching the Constance Councell presumption But the thirde error I trow will sticke faster by vs because it is amongest those determinations of the Councell of Constance whiche were made agaynst the foresaide Heretikes which I haue confessed to be confirmed also by the Pope And this it is in Fulke his owne wordes Pur. 4. It is horrible presumption that any man or multitude of men should take vpon them authoritie to define agaynst the worde of God as the Councell of Constance which decreeth in playne wordes That notwithstanding Christ instituted the Sacrament to be receiued in both kindes and that the faythfull in the Primitiue Churche did so receiue it Manifest falsification yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle and whosoeuer saith contrarie is an heretike c. These he printeth in a distinct letter as the playne words of that Councell Con. CoÌ„st Sess 13. but the words truely reported are otherwise The Councell first telleth that certayne temerarious persons not onely do communicate the lay people in both kinds and after supper but also obstinately holde that they must be so communicated See Augu. ep 118. ca. 6 Then saith the Councell Hinc est c. Vpon this occasion this Councell doth declare determine and define that although Christ did institute after supper this venerable sacrament there is one piece And did minister it to his disciples vnder both formes of bread and wine there is the other piece yet this notwithstanding the authoritie of the sacred Canons also the laudable and approued custome of the Church hath obserued and doth obserue that this same sacrament must not be consecrated after supper nor receiued of the faithfull when they haue broken their fast c. there is agayne for the first piece And likewise that although this same sacrament were in the primitiue Church receiued of the faithfull vnder both formes yet for the auoyding of certaine dangers and scandles this custome was reasonably brought in that they which consecrate receiue it vnder both and the layetie onely vnder the forme of bread c. there is agayne for the second piece That which you report is one thing and this is an other thing For you also your selfe I thinke will not deny but that it is a good custome not to consecrate nor receiue it after supper although Christ did institute it after supper Neither do you therein graunt Christes institution to be agaynst that custome 1 No more doth the Councell graunt that practise of the primitiue Church to be against the custome of one forme For both are very reasonable and therefore both standing well together not onely at diuers times but also at one time in diuers places or of diuers persons 2 Muche lesse doth the Councell graunt as you make it to do that Christes institution was agaynst this custome of one forme 3 adding also such presumptuous words to say and yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle No such words are there reade the whole Chapter who will he shall finde to be spoken very reasonably very modestly and euery way as may beséeme a Councell iiij Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture To the last error I referre certaine outcries that he maketh against our Church for the false interpretation of certaine scriptures But first let the Reader heare D. Allen out of his booke of Purgatory Marke well he saith and you shall perceiue Cap. 11. Pur. 14 that the Church of Christ hath euer giuen roome to the diuersitie of mens wittes the diuision of graces and sundry giftes in exposition of most places of the whole Testament with this prouiso alwaies that no man of singularitie should father any falsehood or vntruth vpon any text And to declare this doing of the Church he there alleageth that worthy Doctor of the Church S. Augustine Au. coâ— li. 12. câ— ad 32. Doc. Câ—sti li. 1.36 li cap. 27 who in two bookes writeth excellently and copiously to this purpose requiring principally that in euerye texte a man alwaies shoote at the sense of the writer Least by vse of missing the way he be brought to goe also the sideway or the contrarie way But although he misse that sense if he hit any other sense quae fidae rectae non refragatur that is not repugnaÌ„t to the right faith or quae aedificandae charitati sit vtilis that may serue well to the edifying of charitie towardes God and our neighbour that then nihil periculi est there is no daunger non perniciosè fallitur he is not harmefully deceiued nec omnio mentitur no nor is a lyar at all But rather the writer him self Et ipsam sententiam forsitan vidit peraduenture saw euen that sense also or at the least the Spirit of God which was in him foresaw that the same sense also would come in the Readers way Imò ut accurreret quia c. Yea and ordayned that it should come in his way for it also standeth on truth Now vpon this in his article of the Churches erring Ar. 86. he offereth the Protestants saith Let any man proue vnto me that the true and onely Church of God may falsely interpret any sentence of holy Scripture I recant Fulke herevnto saith This gentle offer must needes be taken I will proue vnto you that the Churche of Rome hath falsely interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therefore by that which she hath done it can not bee doubted but that she may doe it And for the first he there bringeth forth Pope Innocentius with S. Augustine and all the Westerne Churche at that time falsely interpreting this Scripture Supra ca. 6 pa. 2. Except ye eate the fleshe c. Wherevnto I haue already answered For the next he saieth Furthermore the second Councell of Nice howe many textes of Scripture doth it salsely interprete which it were to tedious to repeate yet for example sake I will rehearse some of them God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we must haue Images in the Church No man lighteth a candle and setteth it vnder a Bushel Mat. 5. therefore Images must be set vpon the Altars As we haue heard so we haue seene in the Citie of our God Psal 48. that is God must not be knowen by onely hearing of his word but also by sight of Images If these be not true interpretations I report me to you This is answered already by yâ— which hath bene said out of S. Augustine For to interpret any text for Ecclesiastical Images is to interpret it for the right faith not to interpret it falsely or to father any
falshood vpon it We néede not to defend in Councells any more but their definitions therfore if they define that this text hath this sense as the Councell of Trent hath done in some we defend it accordingly Otherwise neither the Councell taketh vpō it to hit alwayes the very sense of the text And yet notwithstanding by S. Augustine à maiori in the places aboue noted I aduise all men not to be saucie with Councels no nor with particular Doctors lightly iudging them and saying that they misse the right sense least their saucines haue one day sowre sauce And specially you Sir if you make not amendes in time looke you to drinke of your Master Caluins Cuppe Calu. Insti li. 1. ca. 11. whose malitious steppes you here blindly followe neglecting to looke before you leaped For I must tell you yet further that the Councell for all your saying doth not so interpret those textes But only the litle Emperour Constantinus his mother Irene in their Epistle to the Synode doe exhort the fathers being then gathered to declare their Synodicall iudgement Actione 1. as other Synodes before them had done so to geue forth the world their light and the light of the Holy ghost For as much as no man lighting a Candle putteth it vnder a bushel according to our Lordes saying but vpon a Candlesticke that it may geue light to all that are in the house Is not this application most apt to that text and euen to the intention of our Lord when he spoke it Likewise it is not the Councell but the Pope Adrianus which in his Epistle to the forsaid Emperours saith Acti◠Yea also our Maker worker God our Lord after his owne Image and likenes did shape man of the clay and did lighten him setting him in free power of him self Not citing it to cōclude that therfore we must haue Images in the Church but to answere Nugas the triflyng obiection of the Heretikes who pretended the making of an Image to be against the article of one God Not so saith the Pope Nequaquam autem sic statuamus Let vs not bee so perswaded For all that we exhibite in desideriū dei Sanctorūque eius perficitur is in fine a great list to God to his Sainctes For as he there citeth the saying of Stephanus Episcopus Bostrorum If Adam had bene an Image of the diuels that is to saye of false or other Gods vndoubtedly he had bene to be reiected and vnworthy to be receiued But seeing that he is the Image of God he is to be honored and worthy to be admitted For euen so euery Image is holy that is made in the name of God be it an Image of the Angels or of the Prophetes or of the Apostles or of the Martyrs or of other iust persons Reply now vpon this answere if it be so vnapt and prosecute the former trifling obiection Neither againe is it the Councell which citeth that verse of the Psalme of hearing seing but a Deacon called Epiphanius Actio◠tom 1. readeth to the Councell a confutation that he him selfe as it séemeth made for Images against the booke of the Image breakers Synode and therein hauing shewed that the tradition of the Church alwaies vsed to paint Christes life as well as to reade the Gospell of it he descanteth by and by thereon both out of true Philosophie how that reading by the eare and painting by the eie ingender in the minde Vnam cognitionem qua ad recordationem rerū gestarum peruenitur One knowing wherby to come in remēbrance of the actes them selues also out of diuine scripture a Can◠where the bride desireth to see the face of her bridegrome not only to heare his voice where also we sing out of the b Psa◠Psalme As we haue heard so also haue we seen To this purpose he citeth those texts not to shew how God must be knowē as you pretēd but About the storie of Christes Manhood and mercifull actes therof neither to proue immediatly that the said storie must be painted but to declare that whereas it must be remembred the Church therfore hath done conueniently alwayes both to reade it and to paint it because both these together tend to one remembrance What is here for Momus to carpe or cauill at Let vs sée what more he hath of this sort for false interpretation of Scripture Beside these I will bring you saith he a sentence of holy Scripture not onely falsely interpreted in sence but also falsified in wordes and concerning not a small matter but euen one of the chiefe articles of our faith This ensample shall be a knocker I trow and without all redemption manifestly against some article of faith Let vs heare it then It is written in the .10 Chapter of the Gospell after S. Iohn the .29 verse My father which gaue them vnto me speaking of his sheepe is greater then all Cap. 2. This sentence hath the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third where were present 70. Metropolitanes 400. Bishops 12. Abbates and 800. Priors conuentualles in all .1300 Prelates falsified in wordes after this maner Pater quod dedit mihi maius est omnibus that is That which the father hath geuen me is greater then all This sentence they alleage to proue that God the father begetting his Sonne from euerlasting gaue his owne substance vnto him Why is that to proue a falsehood or the trueth your selfe séeme to haue confessed or no doubt you will confesse that it is to proue the trueth And yet what a doe you make about it for you say againe Goe your wayes now and perswade vs that your Church can not interprete any sentence of the Scripture falsely when the Laterane Councell which is your represented Church hath thus both falsified and falsely interpreted this Scripture And againe Perswade men that they may safely leane to the interpretation of your Churche when among a thousand and three hundred Prelates gathered Canonically in a Councell not one was founde that could espie such grosse abusing of the worde of God but let it passe in a Canon vnder the name of the whole Councell And yet once againe Perswade men that in all controuersies condemning of errors they must be reuealed by the determination of your Church when the Fathers of the Laterane Councell can not confute the error of Ioachim Abbot concerning the diuinitie of Christ but by falsifying and false interpreting of Scripture By this we may I thinke easily perswade the Reader that if you had in déede any matter against our Church you would both let vs heare it and also neuer haue done with it Why man here is no false determination any way nor no false interpretation in D. Allens sense and therfore also here is nothing to the purpose Yea I adde moreouer here is no false interpretation also in your owne sense that is to say no vnapt interpretation as
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
worde of trueth desiring the spirite of trueth that you may vnderstande and beleeue the trueth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the trueth and of the Churche of God whiche is the pillar of truth So it is then good syr In this Seminarie of English diuines vnder the gouernement of D. Allen mainteined by his holines for the saluation of our countrey as he mainteineth the like for Germanie also for Bohemia and Students of Polonia The Popes Seminarie for England Suetia Slauonia Hungaria c. yea for the Gréekes likewise yea also for the Hebrues we haue such exercise in the scriptures that we reade ouer the old Testament in euery thrée yeres twelue times one of which times hath ioyned with it an examinatiō by conferēce from Chapter to Chapter and from verse to verse The new Testament we reade ouer in the same thrée yeres sixtéene times with a treble examinatiō of the same sort And not cōtent with those examinations we afterwards write moreouer in paper bookes lay together al the sentences that belong to the controuersies of this time euery one in his place And without all vanitie to speake one word of my selfe after many yeres studie afore after the maner of Englād as many of your owne side can beare me witnesse I haue since then folowed this foresaid trade nine yeres This is partly our diligence in the scriptures besides much other exercise both in the same and in all the studie of diuinitie What more diligence would you haue vs vse this is the principall and as you make it all in all All other helpes you counte but subordinate and seruing vnto this And yet in them also I dare saye if you knewe vs you woulde allowe vs for sufficient at the leaste You maye by the trace of God ere it be long haue some taste of vs therein when one of vs shall set forth a booke to shew to the world that the Hebrew and Gréeke textes in nothing make for you against vs and in very many things make for vs against you much more plainly then our vulgar Latine text Now then how much more certaine of the trueth be we then you also by your owne rule because your diligence herein is nothing comparable but specially because together with this rule we vse the expositiōs that you renounce of the auncient Fathers who for such conference of places and all other studie of the Scriptures were pearlesse ¶ The third part What he meaneth by his Onely Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe Thus haue we heard this Protestant call for expresse Scripture in all things yea also in the expounding of Scripture Now that he séeme not too straight and rigorous in his exception he will tell vs what he meaneth therby as it were to geue vs more scope but in déed as we shall heare soone after to shut vs straighter vp and to except also against Scripture it selfe vnlesse it be so plaine and euident for vs that by no subteltie of theirs they may auoide it Concerning the former thus he saith When we require expresse Scripture for euery controuersie we doe not require that euery thing should be named in Scripture but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them Then on the other side he almost repenteth himselfe againe for graunting so much and saieth And yet we may say Pur. 438. it is a great preiudice against your Purgatorie and prayer that it is not so much as once named in the Scriptures Againe If the holy Ghost had euer allowed Prayer for the deade he would once at the least haue vttered the same plainely in holy Canonicall Scriptures Pur. 452. Canonicall he saith to except against the very meaning of it also which he séeth in the bookes of the Machabées rather shall that Canonicall Scripture not be Canonicall for so plainely naming that which the eares of the Protestantes can not abide Well in the other Canonicall Scriptures the name is not and that is a great preiudice against vs. But he will be fauourable vnto vs a great preiudice shal not make him geue iudgement against vs if at least The thing it selfe be taught or can be proued by the Scriptures Yet againe he remembreth him selfe Pur. 452. that D. Allen hath alleaged many Scriptures for that thing and the old Fathers likewise before him and therefore to tye vs yet straighter with another exception he said here a little afore But we require that euery thing be necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures And againe he saith speaking of D. Allen See the confidence of the man he is sure Pur. 364. that if we were examined of our conscience what tryall of this doubt we would wish there is none we could name but his cause might well abide it Wherevnto he answereth saying Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience long agoe that the onely authoritie of Gods word written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters If you were able we should haue heard before this time some sentence of Scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the dead Why in the third Chapter here you confessed that you haue heard of him diuerse sentences and not of him alone Supra pag. 19. but also of the Fathers of the true Churche Yea but now saieth he I adde my exception and say therfore some sentence not standing vpon voluntarie collection but either in plaine wordes or necessarie conclusion For there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessarie collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Againe Pur. 452. All truth may be proued by Scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessarie conclusion which is all one And againe Pur. 189. There is * For example your ovvne heresie no heresie so absurd which Satā putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of words in so many Bookes of the holy scriptures that by peruerse wittes may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods trueth and all articles of our beliefe are plainely taught in the Scripture either by manifest wordes or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtiltie of Satan or his instrumentes may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betweene heresie and truth when they both appeale to the authoritie of Scripture Which difference as it may be found in al heresies so in none more notably then in this error of Purgatory Consider what texts of holy Scripture are alleaged * against it rather for it you shall see they can not bring one out of which any necessary argument may be framed to proue their cause or which hath not by learned interpretors of the olde time
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
his first Epistle telleth him 1. Ioh. 3. O my children let no man deceiue you he that worketh iustice is iust Free-vvill You alleage also two places against Frée-will which againe concerneth Good works in generall Pur. 450. We beleeue that man after his fall hath not Free-will no not aptnes of will to thinke any thing that is good 2. Cor. 3. S. Paules words are these We are not sufficient of our selues to thinke any thing as of our selues but our sufficiencie is of God This doth not take away from vs naturall fréewill nor naturall aptnes of will as it doth not take away our selues from vs but onely it sheweth from whence we haue power to do as we do in matters of saluation to witte of Gods gift and not of our selues If your scholler should vpon iust cause commend him selfe for writing as S. Paule there cōmenmendeth him selfe for conuerting hartes to God and then to auoyde arrogancie should say that it is not of him selfe but of his Masters instruction that he can write so well the scholler for all this I trow had vnderstanding and aptnes to vnderstand For els howe could he haue bene taught to write You know the Scripture likeneth the holy Ghost to a teacher Ioan. 6. Heb. 10. Psa 118. and the grace of God to teaching and to teaching of our hartes or wills Your other place I finde Pur. 35. How shall Free-will be mainteined if Gods Spirite haue any place that distributeth to euery one according to the good pleasure of his owne will 1. Cor. 12. You do not denie but Man afore his fall had Fréewill and yet Gods spirite then also did distribute to euery one according to the good pleasure of his owne will And now likewise after the fall doth not S. Paule in the very same Chapter giue some place to mens willes in the giftes of Gods spirite saying to the Corinthians Couet after the better giftes but specially after charitie because that passeth all those giftes 1. Cor. 12.13 14. yea and faith and hope also therefore Sectamini Labour al that you can for Charitie mary couet also after those giftes to speake with tongues and to prophecie but of the two rather for to prophecie Againe He that speaketh with a tongue let him pray to interprete Sée how playnely he stirreth their mindes or willes to séeke for the giftes that God giueth to euery one according to his owne will This deceiueth you that you do not consider that God can worke his owne will vpon our willes and therefore you imagine that he is not omnipotent if we haue willes of our owne Yes syr be our willes neuer so vnwilling he can as you may sée by the conuersion of S. Paule turne them to his owne will and to the very bende of his owne will more or lesse euen as much as he wil. Howbeit I am not ignorant that S. Paule there treateth specially of the giftes called Gratiae gratis datae and not gratum facientes in the distribution whereof Gods will maye and did commonly worke without cooperation of mans will although mans will may in such also and did sometimes concurre as in them that prayed for the gifte to interprete tongues About Good-workes in speciall I come with you now to the species of Good-workes Prayer to Saintes and first to prayer And of prayer for the dead I haue already dispatched Then against prayer to Saintes what haue you Pur. 451. We call not vpon Saintes because we beleeue not in them for how should we call vpon them in whom we beleeue not Rom. 10. Againe Pur. 310. Touching Ambrose and some other also about his time their Inuocation of Saintes was not agreable to the doctrine of S. Paule who sheweth that we can inuocate none but him in whom we beleue which to al true Christians is God only And yet if you remember since the second Chapter S. Ambrose and his felowes of that time were true Christiās But I must kéepe that to your contradictions in the eleuenth Chapter Heb. 13. Eph. 6. And againe S. Paul him selfe was I trow agreable to his owne doctrine who yet so often inuocateth and calleth vpon the faithfull beséeching them to pray for him Well then to your obiection where is your scripture for you will not if you be a man of your worde runne to Doctors that we must beléeue in God onely and that we may not beléeue (a) Exo. 14. in Heb. 2. Par. 20. in Heb. Philem. in his Saintes also The Scripture in your own place and in sundry other places teacheth me to beléeue also (b) Iohn 14 Rom. 3. in Christ according to his humanitie and namely in his bloud Also the Créede of the first Nicene Councell teacheth me to beléeue (c) Ar. 83. Epi. in fine Aucorat In the one holy Catholike and Apostolike Church as you may sée also in the end of the New Testament set foorth by your owne master Hier contr Lucif Infra ca. 10 dem 34. Beza And S. Hierome saith that it was solenne the custome in Baptisme after confession of the Trinitie to aske Credis in Sanctam Ecclesiam Doest thou beleue in holy Church And immediatly he addeth In what Church beleeued the Arrian In the Arrians Church But they haue not the Church In our Church sed extra hanc baptizatus but beeing baptized out of her he could not beleeue in her that he knew not Euen as S. Paule saith of Christ in the place that you alleage How shall they beleue in him whom they haue not heard of His intent ther is that the Apostles preaching to the Gentiles is of God Whereby you perceiue that S. Hierome remembred the place well inough Briefly therefore we beléeue not in the Arrians Church nor in the Arrians Saintes nor in your Church nor in your Saintes but we beléeue in the Catholike Church and in her Saintes because it is God and Christ his Church God Christ his Saints And so we do not inuocate Arius nor Hus nor Luther nor Caluine nor any other falsenamed Saintes of Heretikes but after God we inuocate Christ the man our Lorde and his moste glorious mother our Lady and S. Peter S. Paule with the rest of the Catholike Saintes both beléeuing in God in Christ in his Saintes and also inuocating God and Christ and his Saintes not all alike but euery one in his degrée the degrée of the Saintes being so farre different from the degrée of God as it is incomparable You deceiued your selfe with this distinction Credo in deum Credo deo Credo deum I beleeue in God I beleue to God Aug. in Io. tr 29. Theoph. in Io. 12. I beleue God hauing heard that some Authors do in a certayne sense make it be God alone in whom we beléeue and not knowing that other authors also the Scriptures will in another sense haue vs to beléeue in such as be of God As of
is no water no nor made of water How much more then might Melchisedeches bread and wine be a figure of it although there be no bread nor wine in it coÌ„sidering that yet of bread and wine it is made yea and so reteineth still the same formes of bread and wine that he could say vnto vs Take eate it and drinke it O most swéete Iesus in déede thou hast the words of life euerlasting omnipotent sonne of God omnipotent Whosoeuer go to Caluine it is good for vs to sticke to thée who giuest vs such a meate and in so vsuall so naturall so swéete a maner Mariage of Votaries of Bishops Priests Deacons One Sacrament more and then an end of this long Chapter Mariage For mariage of Votaries as Friar Luther and Catharine his Nunne with such like because we say it is sinne and no Mariage Pur. 391. 20.22 he sayeth that we are the forbidders of Mariage that S. Paule speaketh of 1. Tim. 4. You are they sayth he that attend to spirites of error and doctrines of diuels forbidding to marrie and absteining from meates and so forth as I recited a litle afore about Abstinence where I shewed that the Apostle there noteth the Eucratites Manichées and such other heretikes that taught fleshmeat and wine to come of the diuel and not of God And likwise that they condemned Marriage in it selfe for they sayd that our bodies also are of the diuel and therefore the propagation of them by Mariage to be his seruice And yet they durst such is the impudency of Heretiks charge the Catholiks for their Nunnes to be prohibentes nubere those forbidders of Mariage that S. Paule speaketh of Aug. cont Faustum Manich. li. 30. ca. 6.4 But S. Augustine answereth them Fulke at once saying Ille prohibet nubere qui hoc malum esse dicit He forbiddeth to marry that saith it is a naughtie thing as did those Heretikes non qui huic bono aliud melius anteponit and not he which to this good thing preferreth another better thing that is virginitie to Mariage as the Catholikes now do and also then did and that so peremptorily that they counted Iouinian an heretike as we do the Protestants for the contrarie A Iouiniano quodam Monacho ista haeresis orta est Aug Haer. 82. Retr li. 2. ca. 22. sayth S. Augustine This heresie did spring of one Iouinian being a Monke Virginitatem Sanctimonialium the virginitie of Nunnes and the continence of the mansex in holy persons choosing the single life he said to be no more meritorious then chast and faithfull Matrimonies In so much that certayne sacred Virgins of good yeres in the Citie of Rome where he taught this geare hearing him are said to haue married but no Priest could he deceiue For the holy Churche which is there did most faithfully most manly withstande this monster and quickly oppressed and extincted his heresie Yet commeth Fulke so long after raketh the ashes thinketh he hath found a sparkle Ar. 45. and saith If Iouinian taught that suche as could not conteine though they had vowed virginitie should neuerthelesse be maried this was the doctrine of S. Paule It is better to marrie then to burne Pur. 22.32 Am. ad Vir Laps ca. 5. Agayne where D. Allen sayth How can they for sinne and shame honour that with the name of holy mariage that S. Ambrose termeth Aduoutrie S. Augustine worse then Aduoutry and they with all the residue of Doctours horrible incest He replyeth Aug. de bono vid. c. 8. The holy Ghost hath taught vs to call mariage honorable in all men and the bed vndefiled whatsoeuer any man hath said to the contrarie and to allow mariage in them that cannot conteine although they haue vowed virginitie because It is better to mary then to burn Thus he alleageth Scriptures for heretikes against Gods Church as he confesseth it was and against the fathers thereof But howe doth he proue his interpretations of those Scriptures out of other Scriptures as he promised No I warrant you he is alwais like him selfe a clowde without water Let vs then following our fathers steppes confer a litle to finde the true sense First what is to burne To be troubled with the pricking of the flesh say the heretikes Not so saye we for S. Paule him selfe was troubled much with such pricking 2. Cor. 12. and yet he was not bidde to marry when he prayed so instantly agaynst it but it was sayde vnto him by Christ My grace is sufficient for thee for my strength is perfited in infirmitie that is where one acknowlegeth his infirmitie and séeketh to me for strength there do I most strongly worke A notable ensample thereof is S. Augustine reade his confessions how impossible he thought it afore to liue without a woman Aug. conf li. 6. ca. 15. li. 8. c. 12 and how perfitly he was afterwarde chaunged by grace As also millions of millions in the Catholike Church haue experience in them selues néeding therfore no other argument against you al but their own conscience to condemne your brutish assertion of such impossibilitie What is it then to burne or to be burned we néede not to séeke farre S. Paule himselfe telleth vs it is non continere not to conteyne Marke the wordes If they do not conteine them let them marry for of the two it is better to marry then not to conteine or to be burned And the same as plain in your other place Heb. 13. Mariage is honorable in all and the bed that is matrimoniall copulation vndefiled for fornicators and aduowters God will iudge Conferre all this and what saith he else but Let the married â—olke vse their owne bedde haue their owne wiues rather then defile another mans bed commit aduowtrie with another mans wife And let the vnmarried folke enter into mariage rather then not to conteine to burne to commit fornication Now to what vnmaried folke he saith this let vs also trye by conference as the Fathers haue done before vs. To them also which haue vowed virginitie say the Heretikes Not so saith S. Augustine Aug. de bono vid. ca. 8 De aedul con li. 1. ca. 15. 1. Tim. 5. but quae se non continent c. They which do not conteine them let them marry before they professe continencie before they vowe it to God for after they haue vowed vnles they performe it they be iustly damned And what other place doth he coÌ„ferre to proue this Alio quippe c. For in another place he saith of such Cum enim in delitijs egerint in Christo When the young widowes haue liued delicately in or against Christ vpon the Churches charges they will marry hauing therof damnation quoniam primam fidem irritam fecerunt Because they haue made frustrate their first faith or troth that is saith S. Austine from the purpose of continencie they haue deflected their will to mariage For frustrate
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
Origens Purgatory was a paynlesse Purgatory Why speaketh he of any paynes but the paynes of this life Marke his words once again We do not celebrate the day of Natiuity cum sit dolorum atque tentationum introitus seing it is the entrance of sorowes and tentations but we celebrate the day of death vtpote omnium doloruÌ„ depositionem atque omniuÌ„ tentationum effugationem as that which is the doing off of all sorowes and the driuing away of all tentations Of all sorowes and of all tentations you sée which our day of Natiuitie is the entrance vnto Therfore saith he we both celebrate the Memories of Saintes and deuoutly keepe the Memories of our parents or friends dying in the faith But it followeth you say Tam illorum refrigerio gaudentes quam etiam nobis piam consummationem in fide postulantes Partly reioysing for their ease partly also requesting for our selues a godly finishing in the faith Do you not see that he expoundeth their ease to be their godly finishing in faith for then they rest according to the body from all the sorowes tentations of this bodily life in hope also to liue for euer after a while aâ—cording to the same bodies Which causeth vs also at this day to reioyce vnspeakeably when we heare that our friendes in Englande dye in the Church of God among so many tentations there to the contrarie and to thanke God for it with all our heartes though withall we say Masse of Requiem for their soules For so it foloweth after in Origen Oblations for the dead touching their friendes soules Celebramus nimirum c. And this we do in our celebration for our parentes or friendes We call together the religious with the Priests the faithfull with the Cleargie meaning by the Religious the Monkes which were the principall order of the faithfull or Layetie as the Priestes were the principall order of the Cleargie whiche I note by the way because of your saucines with D. Allen here procéeding of your ignorance in Antiquitie neither vnderstanding so much as these very words of Origen Inuiting moreouer the needie and poore filling with foode the fatherlesse and widowes That our solemnitie may be made to be a memorie of rest to the soules departed whose memorie we celebrate and maye to our selues be made to be a sauor of swetenes in the sight of God eternall That is a sacrifice of thankes giuing for them that were aliue as you interprete it shewing your great skill in the Scriptures He alludeth to Philip. 4. where S. Paule speaketh of the like charitie of the Philippians towards him calling it odorem suauitatis a sweete sauour that is as there it followeth a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God signifying that such works are passing meritorious as béeing in the morall sense meant by those burnt Sacrifices of the Lawe whiche all and not onely when they were for thankes giuing were called sweete sauours to God Pur. 427. The like ignorance you shew also in the former clause which is more to our purpose to thinke that memorie for one can not be a prayer for him Col. 4. as though S. Paule in prison did not commend him selfe to the Colossians prayers in saying Memores estote vinculorum meorum Remember my gyues Heb. 13. And to the Hebrues Remember them that are in gyues as if you were in gyues with them And as S. Augustine writeth Au. de Ciu. li. 21. ca. 27. Quod frequentatur ore Christiano That which is common in Christian mouthes eche humble person to commend him selfe to the deuout and to say Remember me deseruing also at his hands so to do And so in our Masse when we make for our friâ—d aliue memoriam patientiae a memory of patience for our friend departed memoriam requiei a memory of rest it is a prayer to God to giue him patience to giue him rest And that Origen meaneth euen so you may sée in S. Iames Masse where be the very words that he alludeth vnto Remember O Lord our God the soules of all fleshe of the right beleeuers from Abel the iust euen to this day Fac eos requiescere make them to rest in the land of the liuing in thy kingdome c. Nostrae vero vitae fines and direct in peace the finishing of our liues to be Christian acceptable and pure from sinne Cyp. ep 66 And therefore againe where S. Cyprian saith of one Victor being departed Neque enim ad Altaâ—e dei meretur nominari in Sacerdotum prece For he is not worthy to be named at Gods altar in the prayer of the Priestes what exposition is this of yours By prayer he meaneth not prayer for deliuery of the dead out of Purgatory Pur. 284. but as Origen saith for the faithfull liuing to haue the like godly departure as he had that was fallen asleepe Origen helpeth you not as I haue shewed and S. Cyprians words be so playn that you do nothing els but shew your obstinacy in wrangling vpon them and your ignorance in Antiquity Thrée things at Masse were and are vsually done for the dead First his friends offred for him partly his owne bequest partly their own charities Pur. 244. out of Chrysost to the sustenance of the Cleargie reliefe of the poore Secondly the Priest offered the Sacrifice it selfe of our price for him Thirdly he named him after consecration in the memorie of the dead to commend his soule to God among the rest All these thrée S. Cyprian hath there expresly Touching the first he saith The Councell decréed that if any do such a thing Non offeretur pro eo there should be no offering for him And therfore there is no cause that any offering should be made there with you he writeth to the Priests Deacons and Laity of the parish for the sleeping of Victor so he calleth the offering at the day of ones death because there are other offerings besides as at the months minds day and the twelue monthes mindday Touching the second he saith The Councel decréed also Ne sacrificium pro dormitione eius celebraretur That the Sacrifice should not be celebrated for the sleeping of such a one And touching the third He is not worthy to be named in the Priestes prayer at the Altar Et ideo non est c. And therfore there is no cause that any praying should there with you be vsed in the Church in his name For heede may be taken hereafter that this be done no more if this fact now be punished By which appeareth againe that it is but méere cauilling wheÌ„ you distinguish betwene Oblations of the dead Pur. 259. Oblations for the dead because oblations of the dead them selues no lesse then of their friends were oblations for the dead as S. Cyprian here expresly calleth it offerri pro eo to offer for him And therefore maketh against you not onely the second Toletane Councell as you also
all men know that those also of your owne side in Fraunce Flaunders c. in their publike Edictes call vs Catholikes and them selues by other names Now supposing that it is our name yet you haue a shift saying Ar. 67. that we boast and trust onely in these names Catholike and Church without the thinges them selues as the wicked Iewes did crying The Temple of the Lorde when they had nothing lesse then the Temple of the Lorde Iere. 7. Mat. 21. but rather a denne of theeues Our Lord both in the Prophet and in the Gospell acknowledgeth it to be his Temple although they in it were théeues and wicked persons So is ours his Catholike Church although some of vs were so wicked as you make vs. Howbeit the wicked both then and now trusting onely in the Temple and in the Church and not amending their liues deceiue them selues how much more they that trust in the cōuenticles of Heretikes which are the Synagogues of Satan On the other side supposing that it is not your name you haue also your shift saying Ar. 68. If you haue no greater argument to condemne vs thē that we are not called The Catholike Church then you can no more condemne vs then Christ and his Apostles that were not onely not called the true Church but also were called Heretikes and deceiuers by the Iewes which were as rightly called Gods people as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church are called the Christian world Nay bate me an ace of that I pray you vnlesse you can likewise shew by predictions of the Prophets and correspondence of Luther the reprobation of the Christian world in these dayes as we all sée the reprobation of the people of God the Iewes in those dayes Besides that you haue great reason forsooth to require that the Iewes should haue vsed those names which they neuer heard of or els you not to be tryed now by them after their institution receiuing and vniuersall vsing And yet againe you will néedes haue the name from vs. Ar. 95. For why might not our Church when it was most hidden you say be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was conteined in the narrow bondes of Iury For you say it is not called Catholike because it should be euery where for that it neuer was nor neuer shal be But because that wheresoeuer it be in partes it is one body of Christ I reade of many old Heretikes that gaue many interpretations of that name to draw it to them selues but you are the first to my knowledge that said because it is vna therefore it is called Catholica The old fathers in their Créede were of another meaning when they said distinctly I beleue One Holy Catholike and Apostolike that is Romane Church No Sir S. Augustine telleth you another interpretation Aug. de vn Eccl. ca. 2. Ecclesia vtique vna est quam maiores nostri Catholicam nominarunt vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est Secundum totum enim cath olun Grecè dicitur There is no doubt but onely one Church euen that same which our Auncetors named Catholica to declare by the very name it selfe that she is ouer all to wit beginning at Hierusalem and from thence growing ouer all Nations continually till the ende of the world when hauing taken in the fulnesse of Nations she shall be wholly assumpted in glorie And therefore your Church neither when it was hidden as you imagine neither now that it is open as we all sée God hide it againe can be called Catholike Au. Callat 3. diei nu 2. post Collat c. 27.28 Epist 48. because as S. Augustine so often resoneth against the Donatistes you do not communicate with totius Orbis Ecclesia the Church of the whole world but haue seperated your selues from it from the Church I say which beganne in Iurie and groweth on to this day and therefore as well then in the beginning as any time after was the same and had the same name as the trée of musterdséede is the trée of musterdséede whether it be growen litle or mikle Ar. 95. Pur. 14. But what a thing is this that you speake with the spirite of the Donatist and say The Popish Church is not in euery part of the world For Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Many countreys are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish Church It is iumpe the argument of Cresconius Aug. cōtra Cresc li. 3. ca. 63. Argumentaris quod ideo nobis non totus Orbis communicet c. Thou makest this argument saith S. Augustine that therefore the whole world doth not communicate with vs because as yet either many men there are of the Barbarous Nations which haue not yet beleued in Christ or many Heresies vnder the name of Christ abhorring from the communion of our felowship The full answere therof you may reade ther in S. Augustine Although I alleage almost nothing but onely answere my length groweth tedious to my selfe and I feare to the Reader also not for any substance of your argumentes but for the multitude of your trifles to say the least and best of them As againe wher you say like non plus that Most Papistes will confesse Ar. 69. that many thinges in their Church haue neede of reformation as not being vniuersally perfect and that it is halting in many thinges from the trueth of Gods word neither yet dispersed ouer all the World but conteyned in a corner of Europa and therefore it is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church Is yours then by that rule the Catholike Church As the Iewes care not if none be Christ so that Iesus be not Christ euen so you reason like men that care not if none be the Church so that the Romane be not O miserable People that must haue such Leaders The Church now may vouchsaue to be so spoken of by you when you speake no better here cap. 3. of the same Church also in S. Augustines time But we tell you with the wordes of S. Augustine for we confesse no more then he also doth by you alleaged wher he repeateth the Créede August de Gē ad 〈◊〉 imperfect ca. 1. Constitutam ab illo Matrem Ecclesiam That the Holy Ghost being geuen founded the Church our Mother quae Catholica dicitur her that is called Catholike ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est et in nullo claudicat et per totum orbem diffusa est of this because she is vniuersally perfect and halteth in nothing though the Donatistes and other like Heretikes do neuer so much triumph in that interpretation and is spredde ouer all the World in maner aforesaide Both interpretations agrée to our Mother and we claime them accordingly saith S. Augustine and we whereas the Heretikes
adoring her Esa 49.60 licking the very dust of her feete which they are cōmaunded by the Prophet to do vnder paine of Damnation Ar. 17. Discipline And thereupon D. Allen told you that to be the true Church Which exerciseth Discipline vpon offenders in all degrees And that al true the Christian Kings haue and doe obey her accordingly which is an vnuincible argument for vs against you in this Demaund And yet you haue Kings on your side also since the Reuelation of Antichrist Ar. 33.34.32 The Grecian Emperours that were Image-breakers Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images and called Bertrame to declare his mind vpon the Real presence and transubstantiation and those Princes that defended their maried Priests But least we should obiect that it was but in one or two poynts that these did fauour you Edward the third defended Wickleue Also Zisca Procopius defended the Bohemians and George king of Bohemia was depriued of his kingdome by the Pope for defending the Protestants An. 1466. Which is wel towards an hundred yeres before the name of Protestants by your own confession here Dem. 8. and much more before the religion of the Protestants was coyned For though you say Wickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion yet you may sée in my 40. Dem. that in déede he was not neither also the Bohemians or Hussits But that Edward the third was a Wickleuist who euer heard though I denie not but that Catholike Princes are often times passing negligent in their office and othe to extirpate Heresies vntill by God and his Churches admonition on the one side and by the wast on thother side that Heretikes in time doe make both spiritually and temporally of all Common wealthes they be spurred therevnto The like absurd ignoraunce in stories or rather malice you and your brethren declare in saying that fonde booke against Images to be Charles the greates who was cleane contrarie Cop. Dial. 4. c. 18.19 Sander de Imag. li. 2. ca. 5. an enimie of the Image-breakers as is at large learnedly declared in M. Copes Dialogues Neither is it Carolus Magnus but Carolus rex brother to Lotharius the Emperor An. 840. by Trithemius to whō Bertrame wrote De corpore sanguine Domini Neither was that as the learned thinke for good causes this Hereticall booke which Oecolampadius set foorth vnder Bertrames name And is not this a substantiall reason He declared that he liked not the Real presence and Transubstantiation in that he called Bertrame to declare his mind of that matter How much better may I reason that both the Emperour or King and all Christendome held the Real presence and transubstantiation because this Bertrame durst not but so timerously about the bush after the maner of all heretikes in the beginning go against it as we sée in that booke No no syr As I said before of Nations so I say of Princes If any were euerted he might in some thing fall on your side But those Princes in al countries that were cōuerted from Paganisme also their Successors that continued in their steppes were in no poynt yours but ours in all things 20 In all Persecutions Motiue 15. Article 7. My 20. Dem. is of the persecutions both before the Emperours became Christians also afterwards whē some of thē were peruerted againe with Apostasie or Heresie saying that the Religion which we reade of in those times béeing the Religion of all Martyrs and by Fulkes confession here cap. 2. pag. 4. Pur. 258.312 Ar. 23.24.25 of the true Church is in al poynts ours and in no one poynt the Protestants And to this he hath nothing but only this that all true saints held the foundation Iesus Christ which we do in his sense he doth not in the true sense as I shewed cap. 5. and therefore forsooth it is proued that they all were of his Church notwithstanding he is fayne to say that some of them buylded straw and stubble vpon the foundation they were ours so playnly in many things as he confesseth cap. 3. yea and in all things as I shew cap. 9. In so much as they haue scraped most of their names out of the Callender wherof I shall speake more Dem. 46. Motiue 33. Article 14. 21. Churches In the 21. Demaund I chalenge for ours the auncient Christian churches with their furniture both afore and after the conuersion of the Romane Emperours also in our country namely as in all others And Fulke no lesse chalengeth them to his side here cap. 2. pag. 6. But before we come to the particulers let vs see his answere to D. Allens argument What if it were graunted that all Churches that now remayne Ar. 53. Pur. 339.340 that he addeth whereas D. Allen speaketh generally were buylded by Papists and for Popish vses what haue you wonne thereby As much as néedeth I thinke Why not For the same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a Temple in all the world that was not buylded by Idolaters and to mainteine Idolatrie Were that the same chalenge I pray you The Apostles renounced both those Temples and that Religion you renounce Popish religion but do you also renounce al Churches that now remayne If you do then you renounce also the Churches of the first 600. yeres for innumerable of them as at Rome c. now also remaine But because you may not leaue to vs the Churches of that time also for feare of afterclaps you thinke good to come to the matter and to say But for all your bragges we are able to shew that such Churches as were buylded by true Christians were not buylded to such end as yours are Constātinus Magnus was a true Christian with you also and of him I told you erewhile in the 19. Dem. out of Eusebius that he builded Apostolorum templum A temple of the twelue Apostles in his citie of Constantinople appoynting his owne body to lye in the midle of their 12. shrines Vt defunctus queque precationum quae ibidem essent ad Apostolorum gloriam offerendae particeps efficeretur That also after his death he might be partaker of the prayers whiche there should be offered to the Apostles glory And at his burial accordingly Much people with the Priests preces pro anima Imperatoris Deo fundebant made prayers to God for his soule And likewise to this day we sée saith Eusebius that he enioyeth there the diuine Ceremonies and the Mysticall Sacrifice the societie of the holy prayers This was his end among others and the same was the end of al our Church founders a Pur. 338. to 347. saith D. Allen. Not so saith Fulke for b Pur. 339. Ar. 52.57 Fulk is no babe you may see our Stories testifie that at the first conuersion of this Land to Christianitie the Temples of the Pagane Britons and of the Idolatrous
Saxons were conuerted into Churches of the Christians Therfore these Churches forsoth had Pagane founders and not beleeuers of Purgatorie as likewise Pantheon in Rome As though that they which conuerted them to the Christian vse were not rather their founders as now also king Henry the eight is called of you a founder of many places that he did not buyld but only alter So then here is one ende of their Churches all one and of our Churches to wit to pray for the dead But they were all buylded in the honor of God of Christ Ar. 53. to 55. and the most of yours in the honor of creatures of Saints Mary well ymet The aforesaid Church of Constantinus was it not called The twelue Apostles Church And doth not S. Augustine De Ciuit Dei talke of Basilicae Martyrum Apostolorum Au. de Ciu. li. 1 ca. 1.4 The Apostles and the Martyrs Churches or Palaces calling thē also Christi Basilicas The Churches of Christ which you make to be opposite one to the other besides infinite like examples And therfore your places out of S. Basill and Didymus S. Augustine Bas ep 141 Did. de sp sanct Au. ep 174 Ench. c. 56. Cont. Maxim Ar. l. 1. Titul 11. De ver rae ca. 55. that a Temple is onely for God make no more against our Churches now then against theirs at that time But the places where S. Augustine answereth the matter for you to alleage them against it is most vayne impudencie He a Au. de ci li. 8. c. 27. li. 22. ca. 10. telleth you the Paganes for him selfe and for vs together But we do not to our Martyrs build Temples as to Gods but Memories as to dead men their soules yet liuing with God Nec ibi erigimus Altaria in quibus sacrificemus Martyribus sed vni Deo c. Neither in those memories do we erect Altars etiam super sanctum corpus Martyris Not so much as them that are made ouer the holy bodies of Martyrs vpon them to sacrifice to the Martyrs But to the one both ours and the Martyrs God do we offer the Sacrifice Although at that Sacrifice they as the men of God be in their place and order named and we honor the Memories of them as of holy men of God Ar. 55. Sozo li. 2. ca. 2. This is the meaning and none other of S. Peters Church S. Laurence Church of S. Peters Altar S. Laurence Altar And euen so of Angels Churches also Sozomenus telling of a Church in Constantinople called Michaelium S. Michaels in memorie of an Apparition of that Archangell there Pur. 344.345 But in the third end you pay vs home for the great grauntes that Constantine made to Syluester Byshop of Rome he made to marryed Byshops of Rome And that were so then crie on a Gods name Viuat Iouinianus Blessing vpon Iouinian and Anathema to S. Augustine who called him a monster yea and vppon all the Churche of Rome where not so much as one Priest would marrie for all his perswasions but so faithfully resisted him that out of hand they extincted his heresie here Cap. 8. pag. 149. Séeing this your impudent most false assertion of Rome who will maruell to heare you say as boldly of England Many of these Churches and Colledges yea the most notable Cathedrall Churches in Englande were buylded for Preachers of the Gospell and their wiues to * Then is the Q. Iniunction to blame dwell in and they were first inhabited of marryed Priestes Is it possible Our stories are plentifull in that poynt if you be skilfull in antiquitie you cannot be ignoraunt of this which is testified of Ranulphus Castrensis Matthaeus Westmonasteriensis the storie of Peterburghe and many other You talke sometymes of a Whetstone as bygge as a Mountayne You haue wonne it you must néedes haue it This our Stories tell that manye of our Priestes had néede sometymes of reformation and that also with violence suche was their obstinacie in that durte as also in other Countryes too often But that any Churches were builded for suche swine or first inhabited by such is a chicken of your owne hatching Ar. 55.56.57 After this wée haue to consider what you say of Chauncells and the Roode lofte of Altars of Chalices and Uestmentes The Churche of Tyrus Eusebius lib. 10. cap. 4. had Cancellos the Chauncell in the myddest and the Altar beyng but one Fulk driuen to confesse altars in the Church in the myddest of the Chauncell So also as the Priestes and Deacons stoode rounde about it Agayne Many Churches haue Crosse Iles. Belike you are sodainely become our Proctor For Chauncelles Altars and Crosses were not I trow in your fellowes late buyldinges which you mention Pur. 342. at Orleans Antwarpe and other places And therefore as sodainly you chaunge agayne and say that the Chauncelles are but additions buylded since the Churches of lykelyhood by the persons that disdayned to haue their place in the myddest of the people as the olde manner was Euen as likely as that it was of disdayne that Saint Ambrose by his Archdeacon commaunded the Emperour Theodosius senior Theo. li. 5. ca. 17. Sozom. li. 7. ca. 24. out of the Chauncell telling him that it was for the Cleargie onely solis sacerdotibus If you knowe that maruellous Storie you may better remember your selfe because you saye In the Orientall Churche as their Ceremonies are diuers from yours so no doubt the fashion of their Temples differeth from yours You may there perceaue that both in the East and West Churche the diuersitie was not in the Ceremonies nor Temples but in the Byshops for many were flatterers or vnskilfull euery one was not an Ambrose Howbeit some little differences are in the Temples also of one Citie but without iarre yea all very sightly becomming our Church Psal 44. as varietie in the Quéenes goodly garment But your Religion may not beare any Chauncels at all neyther in the myddest nor at the East ende It may not beare the length into the East which was and is the common and Apostolike fourme but will haue all rather to bée rounde accordyng to the example of those fewe which before were lyghtly Temples and Synagogues of the Paganes and Iewes as Sainct Maria Rotunda in Rome which was Pantheon and those two at London and Cambridge which you doo mention It may not bear the out Isles to make it in forme of a Crosse lying along vppon the ground No it may not beare any Crosse or Roode at all to be in the Church although Constātinus had a Eus in vi Cōst li. 2. c. 12. l. 4. c. 56 Soz. li. 1. c. 8. Tabernaculum Crucis a Tabernacle or moueable Church of the Crosse carryed about with him in the warres and also in Hierusalem b Eus or de laud. Cōst pag. 367. dedidicated an holy Temple Salutari Signo Crucis to the healthfull signe of the Crosse
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
for denying of Baptisme to Infantes I am not able to say Bern. Ser. 66. super Cant. Saint Bernard himselfe no meaner witnesse at the very same time writeth it and you doubt whether they were not sclaundered But certaine it is that the godly called Pauperes de Lugduno and VValdenses were sclaundered with many detestable opinions which it is nowe well knowen that they neuer did hold So you say but you shew it not I referre the Reader for breuitie to Doctor Saunders Monarchie lib. 7. pag. 493. who alleageth his Authors and them of iust credite that these Pauperes de Lugduno were a very order of fryers begunne by one Valdesius and that they helde many detestable opinions as you do well terme them namely against all iudgeing to bloud or to any other corporall punishment Item all carnall commixtion c. Finally therefore I note that you say Wee haue alwayes abhorred the detestable Heresies of the Anabaptistes Ar. 61.62.63 Pur. 19.420 Libertines Suenkefeldians Dauidians Seruitians and all such detestable and abhominable Heretikes of this time None but fooles will thinke them to be Protestantes So say wée that none but fooles will thinke those others to be Protestantes although they agrée with you in some things For so doe these also in some things yea and in more things then any of the others 41. Studying all Trueth Motiue 31. Hauing in these last Demaundes shewed that our Church is the Conseruer and Kéeper of all trueth and the Protestants contrariwise no more but brochers of old and new heresies I do in this Demaund note what Schooles and Vniuersities our church hath erected and what orders she hath set for the Teaching and learning of all diuine trueth to defend all against all sortes of enemies wheras the Protestant students for the most part know not what the course of Diuinitie meaneth Touching this matter I finde where Fulke saieth that of late dayes Ar. 52.53 diuerse Vniuersities Schooles and Colledges are erected by Protestantes in Germanie and other Countries that haue receaued the Gospell Whereas Doctor Allen demaundeth of such erections as were any time before Luther beganne them he noteth all to haue béen ours and none of the Protestantes which is so plaine that Fulke rehearseth the first Colledges of Monkes saying they were Colledges of studentes and like a blind man seeth not that to make with vs as more at large I haue shewed here in the 25. Demaund being of Monkes Now when certaine Princes seduced by you destroyed all Monasteries with the which also the Colledges of the Vniuersities in England went together by the Parliament in such an hazard they were was it not forsooth a gratious prouision of them to set vp a fewe petite Schooles in stéede of them howbeit that also no otherwise then by apish imitation of the Catholike Churches scholes nor before that they saw by experience all learning to be packed away together with the Friers other Catholiks And yet you brag that there was neuer so great store of learning in any age Pur. 7.8 as there is nowe in these our dayes in the Protestantes Wherin you shew your selfe to be still as we were when wée were children in the Grammer schole where we thought that no man could be better learned then our Master you may bragge so before babes We that knowe both your and the Catholike scholes can but laugh at your childishnesse You speake of knowledge of the tongues and rationall sciences There are more declamations in Gréeke in one common schole of the Iesuites then in both your Vniuersities I dare say being ioyned together and better Masters of Arte of two or thrée yéeres teaching through all Logicke and Philosophie then with you in seuen yeares And the very Masters of such things with vs of Hebrew of Gréeke of Latine of Poetrie of Logicke of Philosophie doe they thinke you count themselues therefore learned in Diuinitie which they neuer studied or better learned in it then the professors of it lacking the tonges or the eloquence of thē as S. Thomas Aquinus S. Augustine the Apostles What a madnesse were that This rather is rudenesse and barbarousnesse as in our Countrey to thinke a mere Grammer Scholemaster sufficient to be Doctor of Diuinitie yea and a Bishop also not for other qualities of them I speake not but euen for Diuinitie No no M. Fulke Regnum Grammaticorum is past date all are not children as they were when this geare began your tongues will not nowe serue no nor your studie of Diuinitie it self in Caluines schole Come once to the Catholike scholes as Gods grace can bring you and I beséeche him to doe it and you will be ashamed of your selfe as many a one alreadie is that thought himselfe and was thought of others at home a iolly fellow Peraduenture you haue read Francis Stancarus a Doctor procéeded out of your owne Schole and hath his Gnatonicos Stanc li. de Trin. Mediatore as well as your other Gnatoes where he writeth thus Plus valet vnus Petrus Lomberdus c. One Petrus Lombardus who is you know our Master of the Sentences is more worth then 100. Luthers 200. Melancthons 300. Bullingers 400. Peter Martyrs et 500. Caluini and 500. Caluines Who all if they were punde together in one Morter there could not be beaten out of them one ounce of true Diuinitie specially in the Articles of the Trinitie Incarnation Mediator and Sacramentes He vseth here his fellowes your Masters very boldly but what remedie So yll were they studied in those Articles and specially in the thrée formost because their care and studie was not to vnderstand and defend Christian trueth but onely to picke vaine quarels against Gods Church in other matters And therefore you the petite Protestants must néedes forsooth be great Doctors 42. Vnsent Motiue 21. In my next Demaund I note both those your Masters and you their Disciples to be such as God speaketh of by his Prophete They did runne and I did not send them A wise Church Iere. 23. that hath no Preachers and Teachers but onely such as tooke the honor to themselues or at their handes who tooke to them selues the authoritie to send which no man gaue them Mere lay men are the roote the spring and the giuers both of your Orders as here in the .24 Dem. I said and also of your Commission and of your spirituall iurisdiction Who euer heard the like in the Church of Christ You haue no answere vnto it You are as the auncient writers doe tearme such children without any Fathers You are like the Poetes men that Deucalion made of stones you doe not descend of Adam Rayle as long as you may at Gods Church and her spirituall external iurisdiction in her Censures penalties Ar. 17.18.19.30.98 and al other discipline as Excommunication Suspention Interdighting also Dagradation c. you doe no more but shew that you vnderstand not the things whereof you
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
repent And how many such sinnes are there and which In one place you name two Obstinate and wilfull Apostasie and blasphemie against the holy Ghost after them you adde there c. Therefore looking in other places which be those caetera I finde where you name a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 Contempt of all that preach Christ and repentance of our lothsome life past and saye then the which no vice is more mortall nor farther from forgiuenes In another place you name Saule 1. Sam. 16. for whom Samuel was not heard when he prayed and the obstinate Iewes Ier. 7.11.14 Ezech. 14. for whom Ieremy is often times forbidden to pray and the wicked generally because the Lorde testifieth that if Noah Daniel Iob prayed for them they shuld not be heard And you conclude therevpon Therefore there be sinnes for the which the Church ought not to pray and though she should pray yet she should not be heard euen of men remayning in this life Whereby it appeareth that in summe you say that it is vnlawfull to pray for any wicked person of what sorte soeuer his wickednes be so long as he continueth in his wickednes yea and that a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is vnpossible for the wicked but to continue in his wickednes Such holsome doctrine you teach and that so often and so constantly yea also abusing the holy Scriptures for the same not onely in those places before noted 1. Ioan. 5. Mat. 12. Heb. 6. but also thrée places more There is a sinne vnto death for which we ought not to pray and He which sinneth against the holy Ghost shall neuer be forgiuen whosoeuer prayeth for him and There be some which sinne so horribly in this life that it is vnpossible for them to be renewed by repentance We were wont to matche you with your fathers the Nouatians Another old Heresie of the Protestants for denying the authoritie of Priestes to remit eyther all sinnes or some certaine sinnes and reseruing it to God alone But now when you say that some sinnes neither by the mercy of God are pardonable we must néedes confesse that you haue outshot them and therefore wonne the game from them What Acesius a Bishop of the Nouatians said to Constantinus the Emperour in the Nicen Councell yéelding the reason of their Schisme you may sée in Socrates who as a fautor of the Nouatians doth report it for their prayse Soc. li. 1. ca. 7.9 That they who after Baptisme fall into that kind of sinne which the holy Scriptures call Peccatum ad mortem Sinne vnto death ought not to be admitted to receiue the Diuine mysteries as other sinners customably were and are admitted after confession and the Priestes absolution but to exhort them to repentaunce or penance and that they looke for hope of forgiuenes not of the Priestes but of god who both can hath authoritie to forgiue sinnes But with you it is vnlawfull as to pray for them so also to exhort them to repentāce hope of forgiuenes at Gods hands Wel it is inough for a Christian man that it is the heresie of the Nouatians which you hold yea a maiori also and that the Catholike Church did then also practise as now The Protestāts also admit al to their Caluines bread by her Priestes to forgeue all sinnes without any such exception and so to admit all to our Lordes Body Yet for more comfort against all desperation I will answere to your places particularly 1. Ioan. 5. I say therefore that Sinne vnto death for the which S. Iohn saith not as you make him but onely thus Non pro illo dico vt roget quis I bidde not any man to pray for that is when one is dead in Mortall sinne and therefore now damned in hell which I shewed cap. 8. pag. 134. out of the text it selfe If that be not inough with you because you say Pur. 273.274 It is a new exposition and not onely voyde of all auncient authoritie but also hath all the olde writers against it and yet you do not nor can not alleage so much as one I say further Au. in r. 19. de Cor. gra ca. 12. it is S. Augustines exposition in diuers places and namely in his Retractatiōs which is much to be noted where to take away occasions from such Nouatians hauing aforetime written that he thought Peccatum fratris ad mortem The brothers sinne vnto death to be oppugning of the Brotherhood and enuying at grace it selfe he sayth Addendum fuit Si in hac scelerata mentis peruersitate finierit hanc vitam It should haue bene added therevnto If in this wicked peruersenes of minde he finish this life quoniam de quocunque pessimo in hac vita constituto non est vbique desperandum For because no man be he neuer so wicked is to be despeired of so long as he is in this life Nec pro illo inprudenter oratur de quo non desperatur Neither is it vndiscretely done to praye for him who is not despeired of Which is all one almost word for word also with that which D. Allen saith Pur. 274. and you gainesay where you say twise I deny your antecedent Heb. 6.10 Of S. Paules place also I gaue the right sense ca. 10. Dem. 24. He speaketh of Lapsi by name that is of such as deny their faith in persecution Of whom alone the Nouatians Heresie against the Priestes Power of forgeuing sinnes was in the first beginning Soc. li. 4. ca. 23. li. 7. ca. 25. as we reade in Socrates and others Now will you that all such dispaire But the Catholike Church in time of the Nouatians would not no nor the Nouatians them selues would so much as I haue shewed neither would S. Paule He saith Impossibile est eos qui prolapsi sunt reuocari ad paenitentiam It is vnpossible for such denyers to be renouated againe vnto repentance To be renouated againe what is that but all which he there said was done once afore to be done againe eos qui semel sunt illuminati they who once haue bene baptized for that Sacrament the Gréekes call Illumination haue also tasted the heauenly gift and bene made partakers of the holy Ghost in the Sacrament of confirmation Act. 2. ver 33.38 and haue tasted in the Sacrament of the Altar the good word of God and the puissances of the world to come For these Sacramentes were and are ministred adultis together with Baptisme And euen so the Fathers constantly expound this place against the Nouatians that it saieth no more but that a sinner can not be rebaptized can not be renouated ad inchoationem Christi to beginne Christ againe or ad fundamentum paenitentiae c. to the foundation of repenting from dead workes and of beleeuing in God of Baptismes and of Hands imposition They be the Apostles wordes in the same place and to them
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be